captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc >> woodruff: good evening, i'm judy woodruff. on the newshour tonight, a shutdown stalemate. president trump walks out of a meing with congressional leaders at the white house, tweeting the negotiations were a "total waste of time." then, how the shutdown i impacting immigration courts judges are working without pay and many migrants are seeing their cases delayed,ometimes for years. plus, virtual reality allows doctors to take patients and families on an immersive tour of the brain, prior to surgery. >> i tell people all the time, i preparing for surgery scrolling through m.r.i.'s if only i could shrink myself downa to this smal insert myself into this space, and just take a look around.ct and that's, efely what you

can do with this technology. >> woodruff: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been prided by: ♪ ♪ moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us. >> babbel. a language app that teaches e conversations in a new language, like spanish, french, german, italian, and more.

babbel's 10-15 minute lessons are available as an app, or online. more information on babbel.c. >> supporting social entrepreneurs and their solutions to the world's most pressing problems-- skollfoundation.org. >> the lemelson foundation. committed to improving lives through invention, in the u.s. and developing countries. on t web at lemelson.org. >> supported by the john d. and caerine t. macarthur foundation. committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more i ormation at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions:

>> this program was made possible by the corporation for and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woodruff: a wipeout at the white house. thlatest meeting between president trump and congressional leaders has ended abruptly, in a new round of recriminations. that leaves much of the government still shut down, oveu the of a border wall. congressional correspondent lisa desjardins reports. >> desrdins: it was the shortest shutdown meeting yet. this afternoon, house speakerpe nancy si and senate minority leader chuck schumer were in thb white house fot 30 minutes, when schumer said the gesident ended the meeting, refusing to reopernment. >> well, unfortunately the president just got up and walked out. he asked speaker pelosi do youre

to my wall, she said no and he just got up and said we have nothing to discuss and he just walked out. >> desjardins:s democrats spoke, president trump tweeted confirmation that he ended today's talks. >> we just ended a very short meeting in the situation room. >> desjardins: republicans, led by vice president pence pointed to democrats as the problem, saying they made it clear they will not move closer to the president's position on the wall. >> today in this brief meeting we heard once again that democratic leaders are unwilling to even negotiate to end the shutdown and the crisis at the border. >> desjardins: this was the capstone to a day where the two sides moved farther apart. >> stop pling chicken with our lives! by desjardins: democrats started the morning flanke furloughed federal workers. >> the first order of business: open up the government, you heard these people.

>> desjardins: among them, holly solamido, who had wot housing and urban development and now heads a local union chapter. she said it's not just workers, but those in federal housing who are at risk. >> if there's a problem, there's no one at hud to call. in some cases are facing eviction. >> desjardins: this as pspsident trump t the day underscoring his oval office address last nighabout border security an his demand for a southern border barrier. at bill signing, he said "wall." >> we can all pl games, but a wall is a necessity. all of the other things, the sensors and the drones, are all wonderful to have, and it works well but only ifou have the wall. if you don't have the wall it doesn't matter. >> desjardins: the president did take time to addressions in his own party. the president and vice president lunched with republican senators. sources say the president privately called for unity.

publicly he was confident and praised g.o.p. leader mitch mcconnell. >> i would say we have a very, very united party mitch has been fantastic, everyone in that room was fantastic. >> desjardins: still, several republican senators are signaling otherwise. alaska's lisa murkowski, colorado's cory gardner, and maine's susan collins have to acted they are read on bills passed by house democrats, to reopen most government. that legislation funds most agencies for the rest of thear and funds d.h.s. for one month, giving time for more borderbuecurity talks. republican leader mitch mcconnell says no deal will gete a vote untilresident, and all sides, support it. >> we're all behind the president. we think the border security ise is extremely important to this country. >> desjardins: another sign that leaders are moving farther from any middle ground. todavice president pence seemed to reach out to the conservativease, speaking to talk radio host rush limbaugh with uncompromising ntne. >> presirump and i and our

entire team is determined to stand firm until theemocrats in congress come to the tae and work with us to secure the border, build a wall, end this humanitarian crisis, and do what's right for the american people. >> desjardins: tomorrow leaders again go in different directions. house democrats plan to pass separate bills reopening most agencies, and the prident plans to visit the texas border, to reinforce his case for a wall. >> woodruff: lisa joins me now from citol hill along with yamiche alcindor from the white house. yamiche, that was quite a meeting by all accounts. tellsis what is the prent saying about it, and i guess, afterwards, the vicpresident came out with other republicans and talked to you and othrter res. >> well, negotiations essentially spun out of control ock.hit a road this was quite a scene on the white house lawn today.

the democrats were saying th the president threw a temper tantrum and the republicans are saying the democrats were not telling the truth. the president, a few minutes after the meeting that was supposed to be longer but end about 30 minutes, tweeted "just left the meeting with chuck and nancy, a total waste of time. i asked what is going to happen in 30 days if i quickly open things up, are you going to approve border security which includes a wall or steel barrier? nancy said no. i said bye-bye. nothing else worked. president schiewmer then saidam the president d his hands on the table while he was in a meeting, and i talked to vice president pence aout that and said what was the mood inan the meetin are we closer to a national emergency? vice president pence saithe president walked into the room and passed outs candy. i don't recall himicaising his or slamming his hands. what we have is two completely different story about how the meeting went. what is clear is things will be prolonged. the shutdown is not ending soon

and democrats publicans are going back to their corners. >> woodruff: so, lisa, to you, now, what are people saying on the hill about this, about what the breakdown of these talks yet again and how long do they think this can go on? >> house speaker nancy pelosi returned to the hill and told reporters the president was being petulant, in herords, and repeated some of what she said at the white house. i spoke to republican house members on their way to a vote. it's fascinating. several of them shrugged. one of them hterally srugged and said that's how things are right now, it's broken town to this point. however, we'll also say, publican house members seem to be coalescing around the president more than i've seen before. the president seems to have convinced at least house republicans at he is very serious of pushing for his wall. in the words of house republicans, they think democrats need to bring an offer to the table. something they needed to hear from the house members last week and they're saying it more and

are. however, democrae saying the president is not someone who can be negotiated with now, he being unreasonable and unruly and, here's the interesting party, judy, democts are saying they think the pressure needs to be on mitch mcconnell, that they think senate republicans are the place where there could with a breakthrough in these negotiations and they want to add pressure ont those see republicans. we'll see if that happens. >> woodruff: pointing fingers in the opposite direction, both sides are. yamiche, we know that there are polls showing that, bareri ma, but a majority of americans blame the president for this shun. what do we know about how he's trying to change public opinion? >> well, the president is trying to change plic opinion by meeting with lawmakers in person, by going on tv andin seother representatives for the white house on tv and by going on conservative lk radio. the president today held a meeting with congressionca senate repub and, in that meeting, he repeatedly said we need to have unity, we need to

be strong, this is probably the best time we are going to have to get funding foheall, so stick with me. the other thing that's important is vice president pence went on rush limbaugh're conservativeod radio showay. monday vice president pence said he hates the word base and says this is not aut politics. but today he went on rush limbaugh and said thank you for all you're doing to us ands building tovement. the president will be going to the border tomorrow and talking to people in texas about what he sees as a crisis on the border. so the white house is using its messaging power all over as much as they can to make the case ehis is a crisis and democrats are in the wrong here. >> woodruff: lisa, quickly,dy politicamics on the hill, hew do members of congress seem? it appearsare getting farther apart. >> judy, this is a little bi house and senate. i spoke to a plugged-in house republican and he told me, listen, most house republicans tonight have federal workers in

their district, so he point-blank said it's no inur interest to end this shu i countered him and say, yes, but there are interest groups, customs, border patrol ando officers whot be paid. he said, once we see law enforcement suffering, that might move the dial for republicans. but other wie, federal worker problem is not the problem, we care more about border seurity andty it's a serious threat. democrats think this is a very large political mistake for republicans and walking out of a meeting could cost them for nths and years. we'll see. >> woodruff: apparently farther apart, the two sides ars lisa desjardd yamiche alcindor, thank you both. >> thanks. >> woodruff: we will lk at the effects of the shutdown and where to go from here after the news summary. in the day's other news, there's word that deputy attorney general rod rosenstein will leave the justicdepartment,

once a new attorney general is confirmed. rosenstein oversees special counsel robert mueller's russia investigation, and has often been attacked by president trump. william barr would assume that oversight role, if he becomes attorney general. he met with republican senators today, including lindsey graham of south carolina. >> i asked mr. barr directly, do you think bob, mr. mueller is on a witch hunt, he said, "no." do you see any reason for mrst mueller's ination to be stopped. he said no. do you see any basis for rmination for cause? he said no.te are you commto making sure that mr. mueller can finish his job? uf"yes." >> woo in the past, barr criticized the russiaut investigation,oday, he said mueller is doing an tycellent job. the israeli secuervice shin bet vowed today to block foreign interference in israel's upcoming eleions. ie agency's chief had warned

that a foreign powtrying to meddle in the campaign. suspicion ickly fell on russia, but the kremlin denied any involvement. iran has confirmed the arrest a u.s. navy veteran, but is not saying what he is charged with. michael white is the first american known to be detained there since president trump ok office. he disappeared while visiting iran last july. news of the arrest comes as the u.s. is ratcheting up economic sanctions on tehran. secretary of state mike pompeo was in iraq today, offering reassurance about the fate of kurdish fighters in syria. they have fought the islamic state group, but turkey regards the kurds as terrorists, and it's threatening to attack them, omce the u.s. withdraws fr syria. pompeo held meetgs in baghdad, and with iraqi kurds in irbil. urds areted the syrian not being abandoned. an these have been folks that have fought with uit is important that we do everything

we can to ensure that those folks that have fought with are protecte druff: from iraq, pompeo moved on to egypt. he will travel to saudi arabia and other gulf states later. the president of sudan has rejected demands for his wresignation, despite thrks of protests. omar al-bashir insisted today that he willeave only if he's voted out. took power in a military coup in 1989. as al-bashir spoke, hundreds of anti-government demonstrators marched in the city of omdurman. they headed for parlment before police intervened. thousands of garment workers in bangladesh took to the streets for a 4th day, demanding better pay. protesters shut down factories and blocked roads on thes outskirtof the capital, dhaka. that set off clashes with riot police, who used water cannons and batons to disperse the crowds. local reports said one demonstrator was shot dead. t

philippines, a colossal crowd of catholic faithful joined in a daylong procession for the "black nazarene," a centuries-old statue of jesus christ. up to five million people marched through manila alongside the carriage holding the statue. many said they believe it has healing powers. >> ( translated ): first my daughter had cancer and she survived, she survived cancer twice. then my husband got a lung assease and he also survived. then my first bornble to get a good job. because of the black nazarene. >> woodruff: spanish missionaries are said to have brought thstatue to manila, in the 1600's. it was burned black during a fire on the ip that carried it. back in this country, president trump has formally nominated andrew wheeler to run theot environmental tion agency. the former ergy lobbyist has been serving as acting e.p.a. chief since july. wheeler's predecesr, scott

pruitt, resigned last summer amid scrutiny of his spending and various ethical issues. r toyota is recalling anot3 million vehicles in the u.s. over faulty air bag inflators. they're blamed for at least 23 deaths arod the world. some 50 million air bag inflators made by takata have been recalled in recent years. one-third of them have y to be replaced. and, on wall street, the dow jones industrial average gained 91 points to close at 23,879. the nasdaq rose 60, and the s&p still to come on the newshour: what will it take to find a deal to open the government. why the shutdown is adding to elmed immigration courts. virtua and doctors an inside look at the brain., plw one writer's decision to speak about her rape inspired a new book, and much more.

>> woodruff: the breakwn of talks at the white house today demonstrates the deep divides on both policy and politics. we want to get two takes now on where things could go aftethis latest stalemate. we begin with a man who has served in many key roles in washington: leon panetta. he served as defense secretary under president obama. he was also ief of staff for president clinton during the longest government shutdown to date. leon panetta, welcome back to the "newshour". so today saw yet another breakdown in a meeting between the president and democratic leaders. as somebody who's overseen and lived through a shutdown in the past, how do you set's going on now? >> well, judy, i think -- i think we all have to begin with

basic premise here which is that there is no jusontifiable rewhether it's a wall or whether it's war, to justify shutting the government down. the government needs to continue to function, the american people ar tentitled services that are provided, ande shouldn't use federal employees as pawns in this kind of i think, ultimately, there's only one way to get out of this mess, which is to reopen the government, open it on a short-term basis, if necessary, and then sit down and negot on some kind of comprehensive approach to border security. that's the only sane wato try to get out of this mess. >> woodruff: but, right now, esident trump is saying he won't do that. should the democrats give in some way in order to get the president to agree to open theve ment and then talk about the border?

>> i think the most important -r important issht now is not to keep the government shut down. there's no reason for that. people are not getting arpaychecks, their familiee hurting, we ar are punishing innocent people in this process, there's no excuse for tha t. reopen the government, and then i think the democrats ought tingommit themselves to sit down and negotiating on border security. there are a lot of areas on border security where there's egreement -- the need for technology, the for personnel, the need for judges, the need form huanitarian assistance. as far as a ll is concerned, republicans and democrats in the iast have agreed on physical barriers to be usen key areas along the border. i think there are ways to resolve this, but the president is going to have to say that he

is willing to negotiate without necessarily getting the money he wants for a wall, and i think he's pua himself i very difficult position where it's the wall or nothing. >>o wodruff: so when speaker pelosi in response to the president reportedly in that meeting at the white house today when the president asked her, if i agree to open there govent, we talk about this in a month about what to do about border security, the border wall, would you be willing to do that, andsh said no, was that the right answer? >> well, my understanding from those that were prewas he asked, if i open up the government in 30 days, would you be willing to agree on a wall, and she said no. she's always made her positionle pretty with regards to a wall, as have the democrats and, frankly, there are republicans opposed to a wall approach. if the president could sela wall, he would have done it the last two years with a republican

majority in both the house and the senate. u he's beble to do that. so the issue is going to come down to do we want real border security to deal with the crisis along the border. there are ways to do this, ways both sides c agree to, but the issue of a wall, if it's abut a concrete wall on the border, i thk that basically shuts down any possibility of negotiation. >> woodruff: i guess president is now talking about a wall made out of steel, but, leon panetta, right now you've got both sides saying i'm not budging anymore. this is it. how long can this go on? >> well, having gone through this when i was chief of staff to bill clinton, we went through a lot of negotiations. while we were not able to arrive at any consensus, the government shut down, and ultimately what

happened is the political impact of that shutdown and the people that were affected began to really hurt the republican leadership in the congress, and i think the samoie thing's to happen here. you cannot have people losing their paychecks, you cannot have people hurting with their families, you cannot have opl going without food, not able to get loann. you allow that to continue to happen and not have a political impact from that taking place. when that happens, then theen presand the republicans and the democrats as well will agree that it's tio open up the government and then get back to the business of e country. >> woodruff: well, that's exactly what i want to ask you about because, right now, the polls are showing republicans are overwhelmingly with the president on this. i saw 77% of republicans, i was looking at a poll, wat additional border fencing.

the president is listening his base, listening tou. to -- listening to republicans. >> i think there's nostion that he has support along with his base, but the question is at is it wneed in order to ensurey?ood border secur that is the fundamental question. we all agree on the crisis. so what are t steps needed in order to get border security. yes, we agree on technology, we agree on personnel, we gree on younjudges and other steps thand to be taken. with regards to a wall, i think haose that are experts with regard to securite said, yes, we can use some physical barriers, yes, wcan use some fencing. i think there should be some agreement along those lines. >> woodruff: right. but as to a wall, i just don't think that there's going to be any support r that.

>> woodruff: very quickly, leon panetta, if you were heinre toda washington, what would you do if you were at the white house as chief of staff or on capitol hill? >> you know, i understand the politics, everybody's painte themselves into a corner, but ii think it's the responsibility of the president of the united states to protect this country, and it isn't just about the security along the border. it's about the operations government on behalf of the people of this country. the purpose of government is not to punish our people, it is to help our people, andhat's he should take steps to open up the government and then get a commitment from the democrats to security. on borde that's the best way out of this mess. >> woodruff: former defense secretary leon panetta, we thank you. and for a republican's take, we turn now to a member of their

house leadship team, representative doug collins of georgia. congressman collins, welcome back to the "newshour think you just heard leon panetta say the president, it's one thing to be wo about the border, but what the president needs to be more concerned about ishe country overall, the american people overall and the welfare of this country. >> judy, i think he's exriactly t, but i think he's exactly right for a reason he doesn't believe. i believe what is happening right now at the border is thatt the demoare putting the lives of others who are coming to our country, trng to come in illegally, ahead of the who aref america here i believe the president is putting americans first, i believe he is putting our citizenry first. we need a bransed approach. no onen theill, myself and others including the president, ave said the border wall and security measure the only thing we need. there are humanitarian and healthealth and safety issues, e are issues our laws are giving a

perverse incentive for people to come across the border and make the long, danger trek here. the president is looking out f the american people, and oftentimes when the democrats are not coming to the table, they are telling the americans we prefer to be on the side of those trying to break illegally into theountry and not the side of the president. >> woodruff: democrats certainly ouldn't agree with that. but in every confrontation the president is brnging up a physical wall at the border. you've described a number oft thingsems the parties could come to an agreement on. why does the wall itself have to be resolved before federal workers are relieved of what'son goinight now, the situation where they're not getting paid and enduringip hard >> well, at this point in time, i think the president has made it clear, and i think the reason is te wall has nod been

addresd. the democrats have addressed building more wall and even ecsaying we want borderurity. the question is border security has got to take place because so many times in the past we see we're going to secure the border, put fences up and do the technologies and things we need to do, but at the end we end up not doidng those things n the past we gave amnesty in the way, we gave pathways fopeopl to stay and we've not addressed there. there has to be a twofoldoa ap. there has to be a security piece and the piece we actually look at to fix it. >>oodruff: but in the meantime as we again heard from leon panetta and others, the americans, those who work for the federal governmt, are ing punished because of this heunwillingness to bend at highest levels of the leadership of our coury. >> well, at this point in time, chuck schumer, nancy pelosi, i age we need to have a discussion this is not where he we need to be.

the president said we need border security and wall, he's made it clear. he said if i opened it today, would we have a discussndn on the wallorder security in 30 days, nancy pelosi said no. aer priorities are still on border situation in which if you ask specifically what are you wanting to do to fixhe issues, we're not getting that, she just says we're not going to work on it. yet in the past democrats such as hillary clinton, barack obama and yes even chuck schumer have vote for border security wall. they just use it as a political tool now not to deal with security. >> woodruff: it's myin understathe democratic leadership are saying we will talk about security,the wall that's the issue. let me turn to the house. the democrats have start night today to pass bills to open up individual agesnc overgift, the i.r.s., treasury and others an eight republicans

have voted with the democrats. are you ccerned there are cracks in the republican support for your side of this argument? >> no, if you go back and look at my votsting y, even when we're in the majority. the leadership have fiv seven republicans vote no. we're just not always in lock step. that is not a significant number.he the oveingly majority of republicans are focused on a gean to say we will deal with this as a packecause what the democrats want to do is take away the incentive to get ths thing solved and if all you're focusing on is opening the government and making it painless, then they can keep kicking the can of borderow securitythe line. we are standing with the president on this, we want to mee a deal, we want to work it out, but even deocrats we talked to on the floor tonight are wanting to find and the question that came from many oft thme was how can we get out of this. they understand it is not just a single issue, and we've got to work on ufat. >> woodr finally, congressman collins, the statistics, the numbers the president continues to cite,

it's car that some of tse are just either flat-out wrong or greatly exaggerated. for example, talking about the spike in illegal drugs comin across the border, those are apparently most or all of them are coming through legal ports of entry, somhing a wall would not address. talking about the security crisis at thder, so much of this has to do with people seeking asylum, seeking legal asylum, the u.s. not having the capacity to al with that. again, not something a wall could address. so how do you t at the core just flat-out disagreement over what's true here? e> what is true is we ha 300,000 people coming across detained at the border. i don't thinldanybody wou agree that's not a large numbere what's a lumber is 50 people coming across with medical care a day.

the forest decision which encourages families to come acss and the decision sas we can detain them 20 days to determinththeir status. are let go, they go out into the country and their decision is decided many years later. asylum issues, when they want to claim asy tlum border, i understand they're admitted on credible fear, but after adjudicated, less than 20% are allowed to stay. >> woodruff: my point is that wouldn't be resolved by a wall. >> walls -- but also, judy, not dealing with a wall, not dealing with border security and only trying to deal with other issues, you't to take away the incentive and the barrier. boarder patrol say border wallsu ly work, to deny that is not true. the only issue is not being a complete picture person. i want to be a complete picture perp. i want a wall and security and we feed to fix the perverse inceptives that make parents

take their children and go on dangerous journeys. >> woodruff: congressman collins from the house, republican leadersryp, thank you uch. >> judy, good to see you. >> woodruff: athis partial shutdown grinds on tonight, we get two more looks at its ripple effects. by all accounts, the nation's immigration courts are overburdened: approximately 800,000 cases, being handled by around 400 immigration judges. now, because of the shutdown, most of those cases are on hold. amna nawaz takes it from there. >> nawaz: in every case beforemi them, ation judges are the arbiter, deciding if immigrants who appear in their court have legal permission to stay in the u.s., or if they may have to be deported. for a closer look at what the shutdown means for the immigration court system, i'm hjoined by judge danna le marks. she's a spokeswoman for and president naeritus of the onal association of immigrion judges. me. let's begin th the shutdown.

who's working, who's not. what's been the effective cases at are already in the pipeline? >> it's been a devastating impact to have our immigrationw courts shut n. you're well aware of the tremendous backlog, and the onle judges whoorking are those who are hearing cases of individuals who are held in custody by the immigration ofthcials. all o non-detained cases in courts which are the vast majority of our dockets are on hold for the indefinite future. t nawaz: so we know some of these cases caake years to unfold. what does that mean for the future of those cas ies? s very difficult to make that assessment. i know for me in san francisco, for example, i hene a pding load of over 4,000 cases, so many of the cases that are being canceled for the shutdown have been on my docket already for o two or thrfour years, and now i have no time in the foreseeable future to reset them. it could be another three or four years before those people

can expect hearings on their cases. >> so we heard about that backlog. that is now at a record high, and if you take a look at those numbers, those have been going up rapidly over the last ten years. i just guess the question is how did we get here? >> it has been a long time in coming through both democratic and republican administrations. while there has been a bi focus on immigration enforcement, there has notn beesufficient focus to the immigration court system. we're housed in the departmentnd of justice, , frankly, the department of justice has not advocated either asforcefully or skillfully for us as the department of homeland security's enforcement resources hagrown. what's happened for the courts is we have fallen behind and not received proportional increases that we would need to stay current with the ses that come into our system. >> nawaz: judge marks, i

haven't to ask you about a issue that came into focus because of the shutdown of the border. asylum cases come from guatemala, el salvador and honduras. the gotrnment said the vas majority of these are not with merit, that ultimately these arg nonted asylum. i guess my question is if they can find a way to limit the number of cases coming to your court, woun't that help to alleviate the backlog? >> it's not quite that simple, amna. it is a very complicated assessment to determine whether or not someone is qualified for asylum. i describe it as being like a thsand-piece puzzle, and you have to have every piece visible. so in order tdetermine whether or not someone is eligible, congress has decided that ese people are entitled to a hearing before an immigration judge so that the proper legal analysis can be applied to their case. that's what our law provides and, frankly, that's what international treatise that ware

signatories of require of us. so it would require a change ith governing law, not just a change in thepolicy in order to on to make a big impact those kinds of cases. >> nawaz: judge marks, there is an argument made by the ministration that our legal process has built into it opholes, that people coming who apply for asylum and stay for years because to have the pace in the backlog, and that makes it harder when their cases are ultately denied to get them out of the country, what do you say to that? >> our organization firmly believes that everyone is entitled to their day in court and that it should occur in a reasonably prompt amount of time, but the reason that there are delays in our system i simply because we have been underfunded and ignored for so long. the system does wo, when it receives the proper funding, and it's not a loophole. it is the appropriate due process that is what american justice provides to any

individual who has their lifey and libet stake before our courts. >> judge danna leigh m thank you very much for your time. >> thank you so much, amn >> woodruff: one more take on the imct of this partial shutdown, now in its 19th day william brangham fills us in on some of the many ways science and research are feeling the hit. >> brangham: there are thousands of researchers who a furloughed or working without pay at agencies like the e.p.a., the national oceanic and atmospheric administration, epe u.s.tment of agriculture and the u.s. geological survey. and there are many others who don't work directly for the government, but who are stillh. feeling the pi people like the men and women at various universities who get federal money for their research. with the shutdown, the pipeline for that money is now blocked. with all these scientists idd, many argue that some important work, things like the regular monitoring of chemicals, to tracking endangered species, is also not happening. rush holt is the c.e.o. of the american association for the advancement of science. he's also a former congressman from new jersey and joins me now.

welcome to the "newshour". >> thank you. >> brangham: can yoe us a sense just of the scope and encee of the kinds of sci that have been idled by the shutdo ? it's thousands and thousands of scientists who are missing their weekly paycheck, but they are also running into delays, disruptions, sotimes ruination of their research projects. >> brangham: ruination? well, suppose you have a timed series and you have to get a sample every weeerk, evmonth for it to work.pp e you're going field study and you're looking at stream creatures, when the stream is at a certain level in january. suppose you are preparing a space mission, a satellite science mission, you've got a certain launch window.a >> brangham: in't even thought about those kinds of impacts. >> suppose you're oking at

insects and you have to look, during the week in the year, when they mate. you know, if the government is closed that week and you col thedata, that's a problem. >> brangham: such a remarkable array of work we don necessarily think of as being government-funded work. i mentioned some of the agencie at tp. are there other federal agencies or those that are doing particular work that's coming to a stop? >> national science foundation, of course, is all fields of sciee. the census bureau out of the department of congress, there are many social scientist either that use thosedata or a employed -- those data or are employed to an size those data. the weather forecasters are kept on the job, but the people who tweak the weather models are not, and as we see snowstorms predicted in the east here, we'll see whether these weather forecasters are as accurate as th mightormally be.

>> brangham: do you think that, when we look back a year or two or three years from now, that there will be a demonstrable impact on the scientific community and scientific research in the u.s.? >> it's going to brd to measure, but i don't doubt it. it's very interconnected. but at a time when we are concerned in international comparisons about how the u.s. science effort stacks up, this is not a good time to slow down yoow, the chinese just landed on the dark side to have the moon, and we have -- dark ade of the moon, and we ve researchers who she they should be doing work to help national security and human welfare and safety and public health, the very things that are at stake here, they're waiting at home for the phone call to go back to work. >> brangham: rush holt for the american association forofhe advancemencience, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> woodruff: and speaking of

science and reorarch, our next y explores some ways virtual reality may get more incorporated into l dicine. specrrespondent cat wise has our look.te >> repr: a quiet journey through a scenic woodlandsda ngerous leap between two buildings. a tour of the international ceace station. life-like experimade possible these days through the lenses of virtual realy headsets. the technology now used to battle evil, was first used more than 2years ago to help patients overcome phobias. since then, rtual reality use in the medical field has come a long way. a growinnumber of medical schools are using v.r. to help students practice operating room skills.to ngage in realistic patient interactions, and to learn the intricacies of the human body. some hospitals are now using v.r. to counsel patients about

complex interventions and to help reduce stress and pain during difficult procedures. here in oakland, california, the u.c.s.f. benioff children's hospital is among the first in the country to take pediatric patients, and their families, on a virtual reality tour of their own brain. >> straight down to it. did you want to grab it? >> reporter: roughly three dozen patients, ages six to 18, have taken the virtual tour prior tog haurgery for cancer, epilepsy and several other disorders.lo the tech, which generates a virtual model of a patient's c own anatomy fr. and m.r.i. scans, was developed by a startup called surgical theater. >> okay, mom and dad can you see me? we're going all the way in jade's brain. >> reporter: the families' tour guide is also theirur urgeon, dr. kurtis auguste. >> i tell people all the time, as i'm pparing for surgery scrolling through m.r.i.'s if

only i could shrink myself down to this small, and insert myself into this space, and jke a look around. and that's, effectively what you can do with this technology. >> reporter: d auguste has been performing brn surgeries on children for more than a decade. he's often had to convey complex information using plastic brains mo2d images, and even paper and pen. >> and then i have the same conversation using v.r. it's just like the clouds part, and there's this epiphany, oh, that's what you were talking about.ti it sll gives me goosebumps because these kids really engage with it. >> reporter: the virtual worlds of video games are a welcome distraction for jake levin, a 15-year-old from reno, nevada who often has more serious matters on his mind. jake has epilepsy. he's been having almost daily seizures, like the one in this, home vidsince middle school.

recently they've prevented him h from playing favorite sport, arsketball, competitively. but jake and hists finally have some hope. ov upcoming surgery to rema small area of his brain causing the seizures. beforehen, they were anticipating their first virtual reality experience. >> wn dr. auguste mentioned to us, i just thought that was so cool. as strange as it sounds, i wante tohe piece of tissue that's caused all these problems! >> i have one buddy who kept texting me saying have you flown through your brain yet, have your flown through your brain yet? >> reporter: that day finay arrived. >> hello, how are you guys doing? nice to see u. welcome, welcome. >> reporter: dr. auguste began the session byhowing the family a rendering of jake's head with electrodes that were implanted several weeks before to determine where his seizure activity was occurring. >> you can see how we strategilly place these electrodes.

>> reporter: then it was time to go "inside >> you guys think you want to fly for a little bit? everyone strapped in here? keep your arms and hands inside the ride at all times. >> reporter: after orienting the family in the new space... >> okay, stop for a second mom, ok over your right shoulder, and dad and jake look over your shoulder, do you see me? r orter: dr. auguste led them to the trouble spot. >> all these electrodes quiet until we get to here, electrode ce and this is the sof your epilepsy. >> reporter: the red, orans , and yellowrepresent the eltrical activity causing jake's seizures. >> the good news here is that this is very, very safe. it's actually the preferable placto be for brain surgery. >> reporter: while still exploring, i asked mom and dad what the experience waovlike. re it es a visceral experience compato looking at 2d models. just incredible, it's just amazing. >> i was excited about it but

this was like 10 tes better. >> reporter: as for jake... >> it's so much cooler than a video game. i'm feeling much more confident than i thought i would. >> reporter: but virtual reality does have its skeptics. >> right now virtual reality has a lot of hype behind it. >> reporter: michigae university's marisa brandt has been studying virtual reality trends for the past decade. >> i think that there's a lot of potential benefit, but we don't want to be premature about it solving a lot of problems.nt if we his to be a caring technology, we really have to lpke sure that it's something that's for, and connect people. not something that's used to disengage. >> reporter: u.c.s.f. auguste agrees. he's been consulting, for free, for now, with the company that designed the technology. but he says his patients are hio first ty. >> firstnd foremost i'm a surgeon, i am the advocate of this child. i'm not an advocate of this technology.

those of us on the front lines, ae innovators, the ones w introducing this technology, have the most responsibility to hold oto the things that make us human beings. face to face contact, and being able to read someone's physical cues, e they comfortable, are they not. that's so important. >> reporter: just daer his brain tour, jake's surgery went smoothly. he's recovering noand hoping to be seizure-free and back on the basketball court by next season. for the pbs newshour, i'm cat a.wise in oakland, califor >> woodruff: finally, on ouroo helf" tonight, jeffrey brown talks to an author who knows firsthand about pe. >> brown: december, 2012: 23 year old year jhoti singh, out to see a film with a male friend, is gang-raped and beaten on a b in delhi. the attack, and her death days later, broug international attention and condemnation. shortly after, an essay appeared

in the new york times that began: "32 years ago, when i was 17 and living in bombay, i was gang raped and nearly killed." the title: "i was wounded; my honor wasn't." the writer was sohaila abdulali. >> we owe it to our kids to not thve this be a taboo subject, and also to teac respect, boys and girls. i think it a boils down to a sic respect of you don't feel lild you can go around the w just marauding and hurting people. and thiss one of the ways it happens and this is a really damaging way, because we all get so weird aut rape. >> brown: now, she's written a book: "what we talk about when we talk about pe," that explores the subject from many angles, not so much giving answers as raising questions. what is it that we get wrong in our thinking about rape? >> we make it bigger than it should be, and at the same time

we make it smaller than it shoulde. it's such a loaded subject. if you tnk of one person, say in a bedroom being raped by one man, a woman and a man, it's a very personal act at that moment. but then you sort of pull back the camera and you see the world and all that things that have led to this, it's much bigger. so i think it is wrong any time we try to make it too much with one lens, in a way. i think we do a disservice to both men and women the way we think about rape. we assume that men can't help etemselves, and we also assume that women are comy broken and destroyed, which sometimes they are, but often they're noth >> browne's a tension you write about throughout your life raat comes through in the book, about having beed, but not wanting it to define you. n i feel what defines me that i was raped, but that i to this on as a subject. you know, i'm 55. i look back and there are so many things, and all those

happen to you and make you what you are. it was a big thing, i'm not trying to say it's not a big thing. b it wasn't the big thing. >> brown: adulali grew up in mumbai, then callebombay. two years after being attacked by armed men while out for a walk with a male friend, she boldly wrote about it in an indian magazine, using her own name and photograph, becoming a rare public voice for a crime usually kept silent. she worked in a rape crisis center, as a journalist, became a writer, author of two novels, married and has raised a daughter who's now herself 17.oo in the new she has chapter titles such as: "who am i to talk?", "totally different, exactly the same," and "teflon man". she offers personal stories of other rape victims about their experiences and how they coped, d explores key, often complex

issues such as the meaning of "consent." b >>ieve firmly that consent is important and crucial, and that it's important to talk about things like affirmative consent.nk but i also that no matter how many rules and guidelinetiwe set down, there's a basic owthing of somebody caringou feel, until you have two people togeer and each of them care whether the other wants it or notices if the other's have aou good time, no of words will help. we need the words. we need to train ys that you should care whether the woman's into it and we need to trains ourselat it matters what gr want. words art, but i think there's more going on with consent. >> brown: you write about why women keep silent, partly it is about a sense of shame, enculturated, but partly you say because it often doesn't lead ti an. >> really, even in this day of #metoo, there's really not much reward for speaking out. look at the whole kavanaugh

thing with christine blasey ford testifying, and there was so many senators and people who said, well, why should we beeve her, she should have reported it right away. to me, having been through it, s itcompletely clear why she didn't speak up. you just want to put your clothes on and be done with it. you know you won't be believed. you feel embarrassed that you were in the room with this boy. it makes perfect sense to not speak. >> brown: early on in the bookyo say, "now i realize that sometimes rape does have to do with sex."s usually rapelked about as power. >> it is an act of power, tere's no question, but w you're actually has to do with sex. i'm neve sex, because it's not, but it's a sexual weapon almost that wau're using. for instance when raped, it was this gang of men, they ed.e a i think they were on drugs, i'm not sure. they thought the a should not be out wandering with a boy. so it's not that it was sex, but there was a sexualage there.

so that's what i'm talking about, it's like a perversion of sex. >> brown: what do victims of rape deserve from us, from people, from society? >> i think they deserve to be listened to and to be believed anto not have the default " you're a liar" or "there's something wrong with you." they deserve to be seen as people who are still the same people they were before they were raped and not broken beings. but they also deserve to be seen as people who have been through terrible trauma, and they deserve to be supported. and they deserve justice. a system that actually holds men accountable, rapists. >> brown: you started writing enis before the #metoo mov really exploded. do you think that movement changes things, has changed things? >> i think #metoo has been amazing, and especially in india right now it's really ed and it's fantastic. but i mean, what does that mean, "change?"

i think it's changed the conversation. whether anywhere one rape less happens because of it, i have no idea. i hope so, but how do we know. >> brown: you're looking back at this horrifying experience that you had when you were 17. and you have a 17 year old daught now yourself. >> i do. she knows what hapwened to me. anold her at a young enough age she knows i'm okay i got asked this question before, it's like "do you worry about your daughter now that this happened to you?" but why wouldn't, i mean doesn't every parent do that i hope nothg happens to her, but if something does, i know that she can be okay. i know she can be okay and be a happy person. i know she can have a good life. i know this because it happened to me. >> brown: the book is "what we talk about when we talk about rape," sohaila abdulali, thank you very much. >> thank you. ht woodruff: and that's the newshour for ton i'm judy woodruff. for all of us at the pbsyo newshour, thanand see you soon.

>> major funding for t newshour has been provided by: >> babbel. a langua app that teaches real-life conversations in a new language, like spanish, french, german, italian, and more. babbel's 10-15 minute lessons are available as an app, or online. more information on babbel.com. >> and with the ongoing support of tse institutions >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you.

to "amanpour & company." here is what's coming up. president trump talks to the nation about his wall and his government shutdown. we examine the fallout and the threat to the global economy.ur former tresecretary larry summers joins me. we hear from the climate scientist and committed christian. plus the second part of our interview with rock star lenny kravitz. after touring for three decades, he's about to get busier than ever, and that's music to his fans ears. >> iworld is a