for the legendary just behind the curtain of hate. i speak with them going under

cover and does america first inspir enemies why he >> uniworld is 60 years of the career beg be locally inspired while cruisi europe, asia, india and egypt. to eat. >> additional support has been provid by bernard and irene

schwar family judy a josh westin. jpb foundation and by contri your pbs statio from viewers like you. thank you. >> welcome to the everyo a huge questi mark hangs over by united states and the democr opposition. they won and declared itself by government from latin america from the united states to europe maduro election was marred by irreguity and is holding on. and the stalemate, mountains of americ 88 is piling up on the border maduro blockaded despit the desperate need. so people are clinging to the border in search.

>> they are carrying on end. and even the way cargo comes. they a >> nothing is there in venezuela. 20 minutes away fwr here it's a wareho packed full of humanitari delive both sides of the

the frustration is evident in every of the town. money and for any way out the >> he gets money and going al he doesn't want going do with it. >> the international stand off >> the dictator maduro blocked his life-saving aid from enteri the country. he would rather see his people starve than give them aid. than help them. internlaw, he would attemp to give orders to thesin

defend the political, social, and economic part. they set a saturday deadline to let the aid in or else. the historian understands the region like few others. he is professor of latin americ studies and is joining me now from california. welcom to the program. first, how long you think this standoff can continue and are you surprised that it overes their support and they u estimated the extent societ had supported and would becaus they were not critical,

politi process that began countr in that sense, what happened was the opposition sold their projec as something that happen within 24 hours, 48 hours, similar to what we heard about in iraq. are in a situation where they seeing in practice. >> so are you saying it was wrong to take a gamble on the opposi that perhaps they do as people hoped they might? >> i think what i would critic is an effort to intern to venezuela and someth need to resolve and i think is critical in the

negoti resolv with military might or with spectacular incidents or action or the border with duelin concerts. what really needs to happen is a conver how the politi culture can be unders a negotiated settle the process in the opposition has not gone away and there must be a level of there can't be an all or nothing strate of van kwishing the enemy. >> do any avenue for that dialogue? we did hear at the beginning if this will not be resolved

all sides are rejected as far as i gathered. do you see any openings for dialog dialog there meetings in which mexico bolivia, uruguay union sent the delegation and it's to give that develo i keep insisting long-term and there can be some kind of peacef negotiation reached. then they would like to be there for many, many more decades to come. two different groups in venezu and the idea is to van kwish the other and that we need to find a level of negoti and some level of discou of dialogue and that's

where i think the u.s. can play a role by backing off and taking the military option off the table and why they can play a role by telling the u.s. we do not want a military option. this i not what we want for venezu we have seen examples that was throug latin american histor we nee dialogue. >> professor, just before we move on to the nitty-gritty here in the political space, how do what support does he get by blocka by mocking the pile up aid in columbia and offeri send the aid back to what he calls the poor starving >> the problem is politicizing aid. the red cross said they should

the sanctions were removed, the maduro playing to his base when h talks about the need. there limits to that obviou but again unders that whatever the crisis in venezuela. it needs to be resolved by addres fundamental problems >> let me ask you how you propos that. there dialogue. the thing is you saw the the national election and you see the president, maduro has compro a lot of the democr institutions there.

period the first thing you hav why dicall. ask yourself why he has not called the kefl-proclaimed y. doesn't he call for election? he crush and call for electi >> a lot of questions about electi that was one of the things why they talk about when he declared himselpresident. he has gone by the wayside. what about elections? that's one way of resolving this. >> and i think there has been a proces negotiation that can begin by addressing the politi culture, the economic issues and the side of the propos elections. that should not be the first

item, but part of a process that leads an electoral outcome and a decision to occupant result they will have the opposition happen now. the opposition to the elections are held and that will not recogn themse will matter little unless that process has been alread opened. >> look. the history of ame has noft covered with great there a lot of intervention playin this great big geopol stage. we will talk about chile with our next guest in a moment.

it was quite extraordinary with democr and the opposition in venezu the former deputy director who had a amount of information coming out, specif venezu about why preside they said they had a meeting in 2017 and the president talked about venezuela. that's the country he is going they have all that oil and they are right on our backdoor. is there a risk to the opposi now. >> confirmed the fears that about donald trum and about again, when you have the lights

of john bolton working around talkin 5,000 troops and you ha someone with the charac of abram who is had the record in central america, it reinforces what the govern has them saying and what critics throughout latin they have an opportunity and he can sa mr. trump, we thank you for your recognition, but we do not want an invasion of our countr venezu critic that they are too close to the u.s. they met with mr. abrams and they got themselves into a corner revela what we have saw in 2002 with the coop agains chavez and they green lighte it or the same thing in

20 >> just one final question that both president trump has given a saturd deadline for allowing the aid to get through to venezu or else what? what will be the consequence if it doesn't get in? >> what i fear the most is that they would use some sort of incide the border. the border is volatile between venezu and columbia. very volatile. columb military. the last thing you would want is humani aid to be viewed and escalate into the support of milita confrontation. all i would hope is that did not

happen or benefit either side. >> professor, than politi upheaval. isabel is one of the most import writers of our time, sellin over 70 million books chile' socialist president was her godfather and president in a she lived for more than a decade she had an incredible life. isabel joins me from san >> i wonder what you think hearin our discussions and perhap comparing it some day to

what h your own countr 1973. >> of all i would like to say that an american interv would be bad. the united states has intervened countr south america and other parts of the world. the foreign policy of the united ignora they don't know the culture and and dominance and in terms of greed and take whatever they can. my country was during the time of the cold war that doesn't justif an intervention today anymor at tha the idea was within the fear of influence of the unitedstates. and so any movement has to be

destro as it did in the rest of latin america and central americ we had a culturalist government and socialist government that from t very going of the interv and the cia had a strong presence in santiago. from very beginning, they and social and political tribe govern when that was possible, then they revolted and they supported it. we have 17 years after that. >> yes, indeed you did. i wonder whether you see venezu all these decades

later with a leftist socialist populi government in chavez now under maduro and the united >> aga now not the time. when t in the ages the united stat and the soviet union. what would justify an american interv in venezuela expect for the fact that they want the oil. they don't want iran or china to there plan we know of for anythi other than supporting and dropping humanitarian aid and there are theorys and worrie about what might follow, but isn't it true that maduro,

in venezuela. >> i agree with you. >> the opposition. >> it started with the social -- >> what is the choice. where do you see the avenue for resolu of what has been a multiy stalemate that brought the country to the brink ever a rich, proud country, one of >> i think it's totally accura we need a political solution. for that, the european union and the united states was just europe get back or help, too. it's not going to control the situat if you never have that withou the political agreement.

venezu is a country that had a dictatorship for decades. it was only through a political agreem somehow shared power that they could hold that democr for a long time. they forgot something very import and part of the population was there and that is the base for they are not going away. >> let's talk about how this contin played into your remark right base. you have been dislocated so much in your life. you have gone from count tree countr and i heard you say you

with held your right. it is the whole world that is excite and migrating. >> today they are at 68.5 millio in the world. after the second world war, there 11. we not talking about the this i something that is not my story. it's the story of millions and millio people. i have been very fortunate. and it gave me many opport and now i became an immigrant to the united docume and i have been able to work and i have ties.

opport give back. i feel that my right from my studen benefitted. i left here in the 70s and i countr that welcomed me. life. venezu enjoy moment and to give to embrac and that changes completely and makes me the writer i am today.

a time of nationalism and racism a time where the values and you you are giving voice to what many, many people are you are saying it's in the united of america? >> i think there i large number of people in the united said. it is a very dark time for the united particularly. we have the kind of government that many, many people here cannot stand.

they ton undermine the instit of lieings. it is very dangerous. >> the most recent book is have b discussing through this novel. >> i want to ask you more your daughter paola died. you suffered quite a lot of loss and violence and two of your tell me about how that visceral person loss has affected you and your writing.

many people do. most people do. and many, many losses, but i people i cannot complain and the moment

break out? >> it was hard and this, from the kind of family i come from, furiou with the world. i just want ed what my mother wanted

>> when you start to write, it's always january 8th. >> when you write a new book, you start on january 8th? is tha >> yes. >> why is that? >> discipline. at the beginning it was supers because it was a i started the house of the spirit january 8th, 1981. that was an attempt to recover everyt that i have lost with my son and everything. it was a very successful book. it rarely happened. it was a very successful book. it rarely happened. so i decided that oust sup then b a matter of discip because my life was i don't set aside the time and

>> it's a great story and it's >> thank you. >> now we are going to turn to syria and a different kind of strugg in turbulent times. docume nightmare that has befallen his country by preten he was sympathetic and he embedded himself with a radica jihadist family. here's a clip from the docume

[speaking foreign . his children after people like and the others in the radical islami ex-themist movement. the director lived in germany. when i spoke with him, he told welcom to the program. >> thank you. thank much. >> you have been nominated for an oscar for this remarkable sons. basica you get into an al qaeda- jihadi family and they are very important.

how how did they behead you and >> before my characters become a leader and he was my key to most of the society. after we found the key, i can't introd us to the father and and then from that, with the things as this movement and it was great doing all of this. >> so you had to pretend and demons a long, long you were a sympathizer as you say and you believed in the jihad and you were trying to do

someth positive for them. >> exactly. in the way of make propaganda about the line and how they win the enemy and the best childr >> what was it like trying to be under cover in this huge defens situation for so long? >> it's long like a journey like 2.5 years. danger that they would figure out that some of my chat or many things show my background or what kind of film it shows. it's not only dangerous from americ and the regime and the russia and by different groups differ countries and also that to his work, he is

search >> are talking about the main character. >> yes. the destruction. >> let's just say quite clearly for the viewers, he was a leader of a jihadist and had a number of children, boys, that he we will play a little bit from the camp, the training camp that they went to. at a v young age. [speaking foreign .

that moment and other scene heads. what is the point of this your nerve while you were >> this is the point that they used bullets and the fire.

scared they can be on the frontline. this i like what happened to s can handle them to be the best withou any questions. this i they deal with the >> some people asked about your role and about the cameraman's role as well. you, the collector and the produc the cameraman. whethe it was right to just balanc and a fly on the wall and you saw that with the kids and you show the regime soldiers

you did not film t you knew that was going to happen me your obligation as a human >> because i was under cover, this i only way i managed to make it. at that moment, it's supposed to prison in the regime and like with other thousands of crimin he becomes like you see him on this team. thii it changed for him. it's not exactly revenge, but this i like from the world of i was filming this moment, thinki all these images and the moment they get killed

i couldn't capture this moment, nobody knew about what happened to those people as they worked >> what you are saying is by least have a record for poster that could be used in image reminder of the holocaust and look at the soldiers and how they become weak and tired. they are young people. they should be being arrested by the jihadists. the regime just to send the people to the desk. becaus it shows as i said, this groomi of these children for violen

this is one of theosama, one of the young sons is holding a little bird in his hand. [speaking foreign . >> it's like this is a small thing us. me and the cameraman in the family house. this i not the whole story

him an how the circle of violen and the strong pressure on the youngest. this i only thing to get reveng after all this pressure happen to him is to kill the bird. >> this is a very powerful film. thank so much. it's fascinating insight and oscar- our next guest points to the situat as one of the conseq of america firstism in his new book the empire and the five kings. the french philosopher looks at what he calls america's abdica from the traditional leader role that did not begin with donald trump's presidency and not

>> the the empire is america and the five kings are the five people turkey iran, saudi arabia, china, and russia. place? >> on the world stage. un america and we also have europe donaldtrump. trump. in the meantime, the real fight is worldwide on all the planet. it is this war between the five kings. totali state and declaring war for their own people and for us on one side and the democracy on the other side.

myster on this one. trying fit in this book. the leadership between retwee and abdicating americ and these five. >> you say that this abdication began well before trump. >> of course. when barack obama, for example, decide to draw a red line with al-ass to decide not to be able to cross against his own people and when he decided not to punish him, it was an the american retreat. even before you had this abdica donald in a way is -- i don't say he is nothing because he can do some harm, but the deep story is a philosophical

story that i tried to sell in what is the dna of america and what has been the role of americ in the last century for the be what is the least >> the thing that trump agreed with was this idea of americ first. perhap it is not our role to be the world's police officers, the interv everywhere else. we need to focus on our problems first. what's wrong with that? >> if you think that america has to deal with their own business, leave the ground. you are left with rebuilding an

empire we will go back to the time of fortre skbwar and you have of the world, parts of market in allies of today and this will world where america will nbe isolat >> if america were these steps what you predict will doesn' it start to address some critic say that we have too

turkey should have more. >> am ready to share the wealth but not with the not with the dictators of china. not with the family of erdogan course countrcourse. if the democratic ideas kingdo what they call the five kingdoms in my book, for sure. we have in front, societies which are not only enemies, but which are enemies of their people the five kings, they have one charac in common. which they hate human rights.

they women. they hate equality between women and men and they hate free i said in the book, you will he is the enemy of all the have a duty regarding saudi arabia it is the duty to support the the movements of women who repres embody the future >> eve if the west has tried to uplift people away from dictat and try to encour this free spirit, why

do we find a third of the world >> this is a philosophical questi for which i try to give a philreply. you have in the human spirit the two tendencies. you have in human societies, tenden to jungle and tenden for sophistication. betwee the two, you have the fight the death. someti sophistication, when you have a real leadership. when you have courageous defenders of moral someti prevail. under populism, they prevail. it is true because we are in the

time w populism prevails everyw there a time like a murky water all over the world. >> stopped that win and that tide with the boots on the ground >> we other troops on the ground. the troops of spirit. the troops of ideas. the troops of intelligence. that's the thing that they hate much where the hate is ideas. where the hate is truth. where the hate is the dignity of spirit >> poke around the popula that you care deeply about. for you, you almost exemplify this entire global battle. >> the book is dedicated to them. write this book when i was there with my kurdish brothers in

spirit and brothers in arms. not because i combatted, but i combat isis. front to front with boots on the ground boots. americ boots or french boots. islam which is protecting the minori and protecting and cheris the christians and the jews who is protecting women and giving them the same rights, includ the right to fight, by the way, and to be on the for someone like me who searched all of his life these democratic islam, i search it with a.libyat

last. >> what happened with the u.s. >> this is one of the things of this administration. it is a moral shame. you don't abandon your brothers in weapons and in arms. a huge one. trump had a human wall of fighte against isis. this second wall was so much the ri grand and he decided to

he let the iranians who are suppos to be our worst enemies to take oever the half. isis. delive by america and conduc by iranian militia men and crushing the kurds and killin them and occupying the territ i understood that the whole new in stage and in motion with new order, with new en i had to describe it. >> it was a huge chunk of the popula that said we are right pull out and right to withdr from what are otherwise endles occupations. >> i'm sorry to say what i'm going to say. please don't blame me. those might have to pay the

conseq for that. then you might have another terror attack. you pay such a price against terror against jihadism. you know what this means it. doesn' come from the sky. it's away from the sky. it came from countries. it comes from ideologies. it comes from military bases. if you decide not to give a [ blee about all this world of terror, then they will remembyou. and they will have no mercy. >> is there a new order emerging the rise in the yellow vests in france happen the united states. >> it is similar to what happens with the brexit. simila to what happened in

americ between the tea party and the victory of donald trump. it is similar to what happened in italy. it is the same hatred of comple and the same hatred of thought. moveme in europe and in americ the target of the social excell to keep the great ideas and to share that with as many people as possible. to have and to permit everyone excell world, but to erase the world of excell to forbid great ideas and

the beauty. this i war against elites which is the flag before this populi movement. >> there is a small sliver of optimi that you express. you have near the end of the book with the five teams and the five empires that are trying to civili iran, china, turkey and yaz. the 21st century equivalent of struct you also talk about small disrup that can reverse everyt any further and faster than they are. >> for we want, we can reverse. that's true. if som determines in the big compan of internet decide that they will not remain in the

histor of the civilization, if they decide that they will not remain as the guys who help china noddles a models and if some o and all of us want border he stops harassing his ow we can. not in one day. this i arm wrestling, but we can do it. these five kingdoms who want to they might not succeed and the west, america which seems tow far from its own creed and from its old moxie can recover this

moxie. in this book, i implore america to recover its lost moxie. intere i know by history that each time americ faithful to its moxie and to its creed, it was great. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> an em passed and earnest plea to the america he misses. that's it for our program tonigh thank for watching and join >> uniworld is a produce sponso the 60-year culinary career

began, she didn't know the recipe would make their way to her river cruise line in the world. these locally inspired cuisines are from india and egypt. bookin available through your uniwor >> add support provided by rosalin p walter, bernard and irene schwartz. cheryl and philipp millstein family melvin judy a josh westin. the jpb foundation and by contri through your pbs

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