hello everyone. and welcome to "amanpour and company." . here's what coming up. trump and kim immediate again. joins us about whether the two leaders now really mean business. then. >> ♪ >> crafting a feel good musical from the ashes of 9/11. canada's come from away arrives in london's west end after scoring a major hit on broadway. and i speak to the show's creators, david hien and ireen sankoff. plus one of the kremlin's most

prominent critics. russian journalist speaks with our michelle martin. >>

>>. >> become to the program everyone. i'm christiane amanpour in london. vietnam is about to have its coming out party and it is a big one. this week the capital hanoi will host president trump and the north korean leader kim jong un's second summit. much like with their historic meeting in singapore last year, washington is hoping this host nation will persuade kim of the wonders for him on the horizon if he just forsake his nuclear weapons and the economic renaissance of north korea. importantly chairman kim has kept to his pledge not to test nuclear weapons or long range ballistic missiles and the remarkable change in tone and dialogue between the two leaders themselves continues. but what will it all mean around the critical negotiating table.

mr. trump can ill afford to walk away without a concrete result and mr. kim can't afford to look like he's getting little in return. fortunately there is quite recent history to learn from. robert carlin took part in negotiations with north korea from president clinton's presidency. and they did dom a nuclear agreement that did in fact hold nearly a decade. now he's a constant for cbs news and carlin told me the debate over the word "denuclearization" misses the point. he sees reason for some optimism ahead of second summit. robert, welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> so this second summit is under way and people have conflicting reports how successful the first was one. oh people say the president came back with good spherics but

nothing concrete. where do you stand in what's been achieved so far? >> i think the first summit achieved what it had to achieve. it was the first time a u.s. president has met with the leader of north korea. we needed to get some principles down on paper which would help point the direction for the subsequent talks. and that is what we did. >> a lot has been made of the issue of denuclearization. both sides use that term and seem to mean different things. you have just come out with a paper that you've written, long with others, including the great expert on north korean nukes. you yourself have been at the table under the clinton administration on have thr difficult issue. what should we expect from a u.s. point of view and a north korean point of view denuclearization to mean? >> we want to see the north

koreaance cap their prograns ca. stop producing more material to make bombs. then we want to see them begin to dismantle it. the north koreans haven't committed to do anything yet. but they have started the process at least on capping the lethality of the program. that's pretty important. the next steps are what they are going to ask of us. and we're not sure. they haven't really put things on the table. >> when you say it is a pretty big deal they have capped the lethality of their equipment, do you mean specifically that they have not continued to test and improve the delivery systems, that they have not continued to test the nuclear devices? is that what you specifically mean is. >> that is exactly right. if they don't test anymore, they probably can't perfect a hydrogen weapon. a hydrogen weapon is

significantly more destructive than a normal atom bomb. and we don't want them to get to that stage. >> what do you think is the logical expectation from this next round of summitry. we already know the leers have developed what appears to be a ferrule decent personal relationship. what has to happen out of this summit to indicate something is moving, the ball is moving down the field? >> we're in a little bit of a pickle that we put ourselves in. that is, in the normal process of negotiations you don't have to have a deliverable at the end of every meeting. things develop in the meetings over time. you make progress but you don't have a final outcome at the end of each meeting. and so you have a chance for ideas to sort of grow and

compromises to be reached. since we're at the summit and because of the political pressures, there's really -- as you know, there is a big, big push that something has to come out of this meeting. something concrete. well, what would naturally emerge, given the fact that we really haven't had that many meetings and we haven't had a chance to chew over these things. or poke and prod at the different options. the most likely things it seems to me are the easiest, which is what we should be tackling right away anyway. possibility of an end of war declaration or some wording to that effect. that is important. it addresses one of the three things that the singapore summit had listed. the possibility of some sort of sanctions relief.

moderating. i don't know how we're going phrase it. we're not going say we're lifting sanctions. but is there some way to tweak it? i. >> i want to ask you do explore the meaningfulness of what kim jong un has already done. we've talked about the freeze on nuclear testing and blising missile testing. we saw just before the last summit they blew up some tunnels that were meant to be their testing areas. how much has he done? and how much of that is verifiable? and how much has the u.s. done in return? >> kim pledged in april of last year that they would have no more nuclear or long-range missile tests. that's very easy to monitor. with our technical platforms. they haven't done either and that is important. again because of the lethality

of the program. he's also put on the table the possibility of allowing us to to wang biang and mismantling it. disabling it and then misdaniel mantling it. that's a pretty important step. i know people toss that off because they wang biang is an old facility. i beg to differ. wang biang is the only place they produce plutonium. and another component of a hydrogen weapon, tritium. is wang biang is shut down they can't produce either one. that's very important. people say well they have got another enrichment facility somewhere in the country. yeah they probably do. and eventually we're going to have to get to it. but if we don't get to it right away and yet we do shut down the enrichment facility in wang biang, that's very important. that's progress. we're not going to get the final prize right away. we need to move towards it. and we need to be realistic in

what we can get and what we should be satisfied helps protect the national security interests. >> so you've been as i say at the table. you have been in these close negotiations under the clinton administration. you obviously watched what's been going since. president trump talked to kim jong un about the possibilities of an economic revival in his country if he changed his ways. he's said that he believes that kim jong un, you know, was interested in that. the two questions. i'm going play -- let me first play president trump's sound bite on this. and we'll talk about. >> i really believe north korea can be a tremendous economic power when this is solved. their location between russia, china and south korea is unbelievable. i think that north korea and chairman kim have some very positive things in mind. and we'll soon find out. >> so what is your assessment of

how much the economic and the future, sort of, prizes dangling out there means to kim jong un, versus what others in the intelligence assess? and that is, nothing is more important than regime survival, and for that they need to keep their nuclear options on the table. >> two points to. address the second thing you raised. the igence community is making a judgment. they don't know that. it is a judgment that they are making based on what they think is a lot of pieces of paper that cross their desk. i don't know necessarily know that that's true. what i do know is that we have evidence kim jong un has been working on his economy from the day he took over. he has new ideas. he won't -- he'll -- i doubt if he'll ever use the term "reform" but he's been making big changes in order to revive the economy.

and i think that beginning last year when he announced that the new strategy ic line is everythg for the economy is something that he's been adhering too. and therefore it feeds into the negotiations with the u.s. it isn't as if the trump administration suddenly invented this. this is a door that north koreans have unlocked and opened up for us to explore to see how far we can make progress in that area to get the things that we want in the area of denuclearization. >> but there seems to be differing views of this summitry within president trump's own administration and his close national security officials. we all know that john bolton is very much more hawkish on all of this, including the idea of lifting any sanctions or delivering, you know, anything to north korea until the whole package is sealed, if it ever

is. what do you make of that fact? particularly at a time when a confidential u.n. report says north korea sanctions are failing. pyongyang dee fieing there with massive increase the of illegal ship to ship transfers of petroleum products and coal as well. >> this gap in the administration isn't new. we had it under the clinton administration as well. they are always intensely skeptical parts of the administration are always pushing back against people who want to move ahead with negotiations. so i don't find it unusual. i think some people overrate what sanctions have done. i think -- i have no doubt that they entered into into kim jong un's calculations. i never thought that that's what brought him to the table. my view based on the evidence they saw was that he made a decision several years ago that he was going to develop his

nuclear program up to a point and then pivot. >> so you're talking about pivoting to his economy and potentially to opening up and having a different relationship with the rest of the world. the other question is, and you have written quite a lot about this, the whole process of negotiations is very little understood in the united states. i mean, we've been struck by -- well whatever it was under the clinton administration or under the obama administration with iran or now under the trump administration, hard liners disdain the idea of compromise and negotiations. and it sort of for them a zero sum game. we have to win everything, otherwise we win nothing. you have written about process, about the impatience of americans when it comes to these negotiations. tell me about that. tell me about the inside around the table situation, the realistic one. >> we're sitting down with a country that is not conquered by

the united states. it has its own national security interests, regime interests, whatever. and so we simply can't sit down and dictate or slam our notebooks on the table and leave when they don't automatically agree to everything we want. we have to figure out ways to probe, to find out what they are actually willing to give and what they expect from us. and that takes some time. it takes good diplomacy. it takes as i say speaking precisely and listening carefully. it doesn't take forever. it is not a process by which they speak endlessly, wear us down and get away with whatever they want. that is phony narrative that some people put forth. we got the agreed framework in only four meetings. >> you are talking about in the clinton administration which, again put parameters around

their military and nuclear programs. >> that's correct. very important agreement. it lasted for many years. it completely froze their program. in wang biang. it had international inspectors there 365 days a year. so we made a lot of progress and and we opened the door to more progress. not just on nuclear but a lot of different things with the north koreans with that agreement. if you don't sit and talk, if you are not prepared to listen, if you are not prepared to understand that you have got to compromise in some ways, then you are going to end up with what we had the last two administrations. 16 years of failed policy. >> you mean the george w. bush administration and indeed the obama administration. >> that's correct. the north koreans went from zero nuclear weapons to about 30 or more. in the last 16 years. >> let me play another sound bite. and this is from the commander

of u.s. forces in the region. korean peninsula region. of course the other issue is president trump was criticized for agreeing to stop joint military exercises. and of course they have been quite dramatically scaled back between the u.s. and south korea. let's just play what the commander has said about that. >> i remain --. despite a reduction in tensions along the dmz. and a cessation of strategic provocations coupled with public statements of intent to denuclearize, little to no verifiable change has occurred in north korea's military capabilities. >> analyze what he just said. >> he just said that the threat from north korea, conventional threat i suppose, hasn't chan d changed. and that's exactly right. on the other hand we can make some changes in our own posture and joint exercise cycles with

the south koreans that don't significantly degrade our ability to deal with that. that threat. it is important to understand there is a narrative out there that the north koreans only want to get the u.s. troops off the korean peninsula. i think that is dead wrong. >> really? >> i think we've got a lot of evidence going back many years. north korea wants u.s. troops to remain. they want us to remain as a buffer against chinese and maybe eventually russian influence. that they see u.s. troops on the peninsula as a way to keep the u.s. committed to a relationship with them. i think people have it wrong. i don't think they pay attention to what the north koreans have said over the years. and it is an important component if we're going to understand their strategic view of how to proceed. >> really interesting. anyway, there will be lots to

report on. when we get to hanoi and watch this summit. robert carlin, thank you very much indeed. >> thank you. >> and we turn next to real meat and potatoes optimism. a good news story that emerged from the tragedy of america's worst national nighttime since world war ii. it was a musical inspired by the day of 9/11. "come from away" tells the true story of gander. a remoment down in newfoundland who's residents welcoming more than 6,000 around the world whorl stranded there when u.s. was closed right after the attacks. the story is about welcoming strangers in a time of need and great danger and canadian show had achieved worldwide success from its hit run on broadway to now in london's west end.

>> creators david hein and irene sankoff told me about the surprising global power of its message. welcome. >> thank you. >> this play has gone from strength to strength. you have had it in canada, on broadway and now in the west end in london. that's a big deal. just first how does that make you feel? >> it's incredible. >> did you ever have any idea that this story would resonate so incredibly powerfully. >> no. i mean well -- >> we hoped so. i mean it is a wonderful story. and it is extraordinary what these people did. newfoundland welcoming all these people in. but i think at first we were mostly thinking the canadian high schools would be forced to perform it. >> yeah.

school drama lessons. >> exactly. with canadian content. >> i think it is a testament though to this story. right now as the story about people coming together despite their differences about the response to tragedy responding with kindness. and its certainly been a good story for us. and it feels like it is an important story to tell right now. >> so let's just go back to the beginning. just give me the sort of nuts and bolts around the story. we know, all of us who were around during ni9/11. we know the u.s. air space was close. attempt planes couldn't come in. they couldn't take off. there were planes already in the air circling. where were they do to go? >> to canada. over 200 planes landed across canada and 38 went to a town called gander newfoundland and nearly doubled the playstation the -- population in a an instant.

and they let people off the planes into their community building. stopped school the entire team the people were there and said you know what, that's not good enough. you don't look comfortable. why don't you come home with me and stay for dinner. and you know what, just stay overnight and we'll sleep in the guest room and wash your clothes for you while you freshen up in our shower. extraordinary. so something you would not even think of on a regular basis. >> and it went for a while. it wasn't just an overnight trip. >> yeah. it was five days. and what's incredible is what happened in response to the kindness. the mayor of the town on the first day said they had 7,000 strangers on the tarmac. by the middle of the week they had 7,000 friends and by the end of the week they said goodbye to 7,000 family members. it is really enkribl we talk about the kindness but it was also quite brave in the days after 9/11 bringing people, strangers who they didn't know their homes. and and the result this

incredible community that was built. it was really wonderful. >> and just again to emphasize, this is canadian hospitality and canadians coming to the rescue of their ally to the shout oout. the neighbor to the south in united states. and when it opened on broadway, canadian prime minister justin trudeau was there. >> yes. and he brought a number around the world. and the president's dump daughter as well. >> ivanka trump. >> ivanka trump. it was incredible to have the prime minister of the country respond to a piece you wrote to say this is exactly what we're saying about cross-border collaboration and working together and partnership. >> the story is that he cried. efs very moved. >> yes. that's what my dad told us. is that he was crying. >> because i wasn't going two go into the politics right how to but you mentioned it was during the u.n. general assembly. he did bring a number of nations and president trump's daughter and advisor to the president.

and at the time, the idea of accepting the other, of welcoming strangers, foreigners, refuges, whoever they are is a major big deal and a very fraught contention in the united states. did you have any words with ivanka trump about all of this? >> she left quite quickly. but we did -- you did see -- >> i did. she was sitting behinde and to the right and i turned around and peaked at the end of the show to see her reaction. and she was clapping and she turned to nikki haley next to her and said that was wonderful. and i was like okay. you know, that's. >> we did it. >> yeah. >> nikki haley, of course the now departed u.s. ambassador to the united nations. so what inspired you to take this story? how did you even focus on this story? as i said it was sort of we knew it was happening but none of us really new the depth of what was just described. what made you want to go and turn it into a musical? >> we were actually living in

new york on 9/11. my cousin was in the touris but fortunately escaped. we had no interest in writing a 9/11 story. what we wanted to do was tell a 9/12 story. a friend introduced us to the story and we found on o the 10th anniversary there was going to be a commemoration ceremony happening in newfoundland and all the ways people were stranded there were returning to reunite with the friends they had made 10 years later so we got a grant from the canadian government and we got out there for about a month. and the people welcomed us into their homes. we saw the same generosity they did. and they told us thousands of stories, you know, we couldn't write they will down fast enough and each was be better than the last one. what it became is this 9/12 story, a story how a small town responded to a tragedy. >> and what was the process? the people you met, the people who were there that come from a ways. do they want to have this story

told like the? were they suspicious? were they, you know, forth coming? >> one dhing that was really clear is they come from a ways wanted to world to know how grateful they were for having been taken in and being so well-taken care of. some of them even said better than your own family would take care of you. and they were very earnest and a lot of the press just wanted five second sound bites and we were willing to talk for hours because we didn't know what we wanted. so we just needed all the information we could have to soak ourselves in and be able to figure out what we could make out of it. >> and what were the nationalities? how did that break down. obviously there were a lot of americans stranded unable to go back to their own country. but were there people around the world also trying to visit america. >> refuges from africa one woman said she had 25 people at her house from different part of africa and everyone was trying to figure out how to

communicate. spinning globes and pointing where they were. one person used a bible to sort of, like because the verses numbers are the same. and just such --. and such passion. people don't i this think understand like yes it is very nice. and canadians are very nice but this was really smart as well as really brave. >> you two are married. >> yes. >> met in college. >> yes. >> in canada. >> in canada. >> owe went about your lives. got married i think right after eleven. decided that spurred you to make that commitment and decision. >> yeah. >> went down to city hall about a month afterwards and my cousin who was in the tours was owerso witness. so so much of the show comes wa

feeling helpless at that time and that's what that story represents. >> and also coincidentally there is a married couple in this play, in the play, who become the protagonists. so they weren't married at the time. describe this couple who then, you know, who are very central to the play. >> nick and diane. diane is from texas. nick is from, probably nearby here i would like to say. but geography isn't so good for london. and they were on the same plane. and somehow ended up in the same -- even though they got separated several times they ended up in the same shelter. >> in began disagree now. >> just outside of gander in gambo. and they were bunked down next to each other and just started talking and then found out they were spending more and more time together. and then they had to leave.

and they both realized they didn't want to leave each other. and the rest is i guess history. >> and they got married. >> yes they did. >> -- honeymoon in gander. within the back to newfoundland. >> it is beautiful. you couldn't make that stuff up. >> no. >> what's wonderful about nick and diane. i mean they have become wonderful friends but i think for many years afterwards they didn't tell their story. i think they felt guilty about something wonderful happening for them in response to this. and so what's great about doing this show is its become a way for them to celebrate how they fell in love in the first place. and so they get to tell their story all the time. and it's really wonderful to see. >> that is actually an amazing reaction to feel sort of guilt. survivors guilt, isn't it? >> yeah. >> but they seem to have got over that now and they are really into it. and they were at the performance certainly here in london on its first, on its opening night. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i mean we have such a

wonderful support network in the real people who the show is about. they cheer us on on facebook and when they can, they come out to every opening ore every special event we do and we are so grateful for their support. >> -- see the show at least over sixty times. captain beverly bass who's represented in the show has seen it over 120 times and what's wonderful is each time we have an opening it becomes another reunion like the 10th anniversary when we first went there and we get the reconnect all of them. >> you just mentioned beverly bass. i want to play a clip because she, let's remember, the first female captain of american airlines finds herself landing a plane in gander. and she duds in your play a song about her life journey and a passion for flight. we're going to show the clip ♪ american airlines ♪ has the prettiest planes ♪ so i applied as a flight engineer ♪

♪ but the world war ii pilots ♪ they all complained ♪ they said girls shouldn't be in the cockpit ♪ ♪ hey lady, hey baby, hz hey why don't you grab us a drink ♪ ♪ and the flight attendants weren't my friend back then ♪ ♪ and they said are you better than us do you think ♪ ♪ but i kept getting hired ♪ and and the world war ii they retired ♪ ♪ and the girls all thought much higher of me ♪ ♪ 186 the first female captain in history history ♪ ♪ ♪ suddenly all of the pilots protecting me ♪ ♪ or they can get their own drinks ♪ ♪ ha ha ♪ suddenly there ease -- ♪ looking down casanova --

♪ suddenly not an inbetween me a and the sky ♪ ♪ >> so beverly bass. captain beverly skbasz you are saying she came over a hundred times with her husband. >> and gave her a cake on the hundredth time. >> and sometimes brings fellow female pioneers. >> she does. time and again she brings young women who are going into the aviation industry. part of a group that encourages young women to go and its been really amazing to see. you know we have a daughter and a lot of young women are coming to the show dressed as captains and wanting to go it. it is amazing. >> heartwarming and to be frank it is really nice to know something so good came out of 9/11. there is a lot but most people focus on the tragedy and the aftereffects that have been so bitter and have caused, you know, on going wars and terrorism and it is really nice to be able to focus on, you know, the human spirit.

but this is not your first rodeo. this is not your first play. you wrote something incredibly funny, interesting and bizarre about your own life. right? >> yeah. >> the my incredible what? >> so you are first called my mother's lesbian jewish wiccan wedding. another true story. it is about my mom who came out to me when i was a teenager. and she rediscovered her jewish faith and fell in love with a wiccan woman and they -- >> a wiccan woman for the uninitiated. >> wiccanism is a pagan religion. witchcraft. >> white witchcraft. >> so your mother married a witch. >> and made a musical about it. >> how does that go at home? >> they loved it. we were very nervous but just like they come from a ways. we were just like what does a musical going to be like of our lives and they then they come and live laugh and. our main goal from the beginning

was just get it right. make sure they would be okay with it and that's our main audience. when they come, you know, they hold hands and they sing locke and it means the world to us. >> and you both are -- you joust mentioned your mother got divorced and then she came out as a leisusbian. got married. made the play etc. but you are both from divorced families. >> yes. >> and you at your wedding, suddenly your find yourself in enveloped by all these moms. >> yes. yes. so between us we have my mother, my bio mom. my step mom. david's bio mom and her wife. and your dad's wife. >> five mothers trying to dress irene. >> yes. >> and how did that go down? >> i ended up locking myself in a bathroom actually. yes. >> -- now too. >> but it is nice. >> everything's okay though. >> everything's wonderful. yes it's just it is a lot and it is okay to say the as lit is a .

>> yeah how did your take call of this? >> equal le well? he's also been incredibly supportive. our whole families. >> tell me about the power of theater and the power of the musical. what made you want to make come from away into a musical not just a play. >> you can't tell a story about newfoundland without including the music. the music the dna of the people up there. ♪ and every house you go to, they play one instrument or three. and it is basically how they get through the long winters. and the cold is basically getting into each other's kitchens and having kitchen parties. and that's what happened when we were out there. i mean it wasn't that cold because it was september and it was a gorgeous september. but we ended up in people's backyards with them playing instruments and trying to teach us how to play various things.

>> it is just incredible authentic music. it actually comes from england and ireland who a lot of immigrants came over there and landed in newfoundland. and the music is this life affirming music that gets you up on your feed. fiddles and accordion, hand drup drums ♪ and it is the way they respond to hardship. you know the dead of winter they will all stay warm by telling stories and singing songs. and i think that's what we wanted to do. we wanted to create this kitchen party because it is how they responded to this tragedy with warmth and kind.. and with humor. one of the things that surprised us a lot is sho many soft stories they told us were actually funny and made us laugh. it is how they take care of you. they will be telling a story. see you about to well up. this horrible story and the minute you start to cry they will be like no no. here's a joke. >> here is how it turned out

okay. >> yeah, exactly. so now to the -- now to the nut graph. you were canadians. everybody loves canada these days. everybody wants to be canadian, especially many people who live in the united states. comment on that. >> oh, umm. >> i think. >> how does it feel? >> so we're incredibly proud canadians. i grew up in ottawa. i used to spray paint a maple leaf on my face every canaday and run down the street with a flag wrapped around my shoulders. so it is incredible to be telling a story. initially we just fell in love with these people. fell in love with the story and to see it be embraced a as canadian story is incredible in itself. but then to see it embraced a ads university story is even more wonderful to some degree because you see the values that you grew up with at home are actually universal and that on that day we a all wanted the same thing. we all wanted kindness.

we all wanted -- we were all in the same boat zpietd despite all our differences we all came together and i think, you know, we're very fortunate that canada is representing a lot of that right now but i this think we're also really fortunate to remember it is something we all want and in in times of tragedy people can respond with kindness and open doors and with welcoming. and even though -- not just in response to tragedy but every day it becomes a practice of responding with kindness. >> and it is in real shock relief right now. prime minister trudeau has been a pioneer in welcoming syrian refugees and the canadian communities have really done everything they can to welcome them. on climate change the prm prime minister's really there. he's not about walls. you live in new york. >> right now, yes. >> when you tell your neighbors that you are canadian and living in new york what do they say? >> they ask us if they can move in with us. back in canada.

because we still have a house there. and i'm always really quick to say our success couldn't have happened without the things that canada embraces, which is, you know, we both want to public high schools. i went to a public arts high school. we both got grants to go to university and loans to go university. the public healthcare system kept us going through. we had subsidized day care. canadian grants to rigwrite the show. we are the poster children i guess for what you would call maybe the canadian dream. look if we help each other and help when they need help, look what can happen. >> it is remarkable. and soon "come from away" will be a film. >> it will be. we're working on it right now. >> marvelous. irene sang of, david hein. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> now for a political theater. for many russia is synonymous

with the mueller investigation and with tampering and of course with prosecute putin. but for the media organizations that dare to criticize the kremlin from inside the story is more complex. for over three decades the journalist evgeni albot has been a prominent investigative reporter inside russia. one offensive line only opposition publications within the country. through her work she's covered everything from government corruption to vladimir putin's declining approval rating and she sat down with our michele martin to talk about what it is like to report in russia and why she thinks the kremlin interfered in the 2016 u.s. presidential election. >> thank you so much for talking with us. >> thank you very much for having me here. >> just to remind people of your work that you are the editor of the new times. it is one of the largest, one of the few remaining opposition news outlets in russia.

i think many people may remember that you were hit with this very large fine last fall. -- feared would close your publication. what is it the russian government is is mad at you about. >> i think russian government is mad about any publication which doesn't praise putin for being genius or being great or being the only leader possible for russia. i think that russian government doesn't like any publication that is critical of russian government, that exposes russian government, that is writing about corruption of the russian government and, you know, all of this kind of role they commit all around the country. and abroad as well. >> i understand it is hard to gauge. i don't know if there is any independent polling. certainly isn't a lot of media

apart from state run but how do you assess the president putin's standing with the public right now? how would you describe it? >> you are right. there are few. just one independent pollster. all others are under the strict control. however, judging even by the official numbers, putin's ratings are going down the hill. so he's approval rating as of recently was 42, 43%. lowered by many standards. but in country like russia where people basically 24/7 they hear that putin did that, putin helped them with that. you know, putin is what, you know, all the state propaganda media talking about non stop. so however, i think, you know, there is slowly but surely people do get to realize that

this unlimited power is getting truly dangerous for the survival of russian people. and in fact, you know, for the fifth year on the road russians are losing, you know, their incomes. life is getting much more difficult than it was used to be. the country is under sanctions. it is getting on the side lines of the world politics and etc. so i think that especially, you know, for business people it is getting extremely difficult. >> are the sanctions having an effect on the daily lives. >> yes. >> you give a example? >> first of all the access to capital is much more problematic for businesses. a lot of businesses, they are closing their operations and their leaving russia. on top of that there is growing what is now called putin's exodus. 41% of young russians said in

the last poll. they said they want to leave russia and they want to lee? >> yeah. they don't want to leave live in russia. that is the kind of impact that in fact sanctions do have. >> can you give us a sense of how putin rules? how does he continue to hold on to power? >> putin is an autocrat. but it is not just that simple. putin is a graduate of the soviet union's political polit, the kgb. one of the most powerful of the soviet union and one that was really never reformed during the soviet union times. these are people whose background and whose education and whose professional life doesn't allow for any democracy. this is a people who believe

that ordinary russians are not good enough, are not educated enough to make their own electoral choices. the reason that putin is capable to govern the country for 18-plus years is that they don't allow for any real opposition to exist. there is very well known opposition leader and they didn't allow him to run against putin back during the presidential elections year ago. they just give him up. so they use an old kind of dirty tricks so that the political field is getting totally empty. parliament, which is supposed to control the executive like it is in the united states doesn't really exist in russia. the people who are elected there, they are elected by the will of kremlin, not by the will

of the people. andette etc. the democratic institutions are almost totally destroyed. >> is it true there are actually more former kgb agents in the russian government now than there were during the soviet era. >> in the soviet era almost none of them were in the government. there was the separate institution the kgb. however two -- major institutions at soviet rule. the one which was a communist party which was party but the form of government. and the kgb. now the graduates of the kgb they comprise almost 75% of all officers in the administration of the president of the russian federation and in the russian government. i cannot imagine another example like that when a political polit secret service takes over the way it did in russian federation. and it is very difficult to overcome because obviously

people from these type of organizations, they accustomed to conduct cland stein operations. they cannot allow others to exist because right away they get exposed. so anyway, it is a very, very dangerous form of government. >> now as you know the major papers and major news outlets are very keen to cover the on going --. how this plays where you are. do you think our concern is justified? >> i think there are two sides to this story. for one it is not the first time that russia, or then it was the soviet union interfered in american elections. in fact it happened when, you know, reagan went for reelection and there was a whole scale operation conducted by all three

resident -- in the united states. one in new york city and washington d.c. and san francisco that conducted the operation against reagan under the slogan "reagan means war". >> i don't think a lot of americans remember this. >> they probably don't remember but we know the outcome kwoquit the opposite. landslide victory. he carried out 49 states i believe back then. it wasn't that much that putin and his guy were helping donald trump as much as they were trying to create some sort of a chaos in the united states. they wanted to portray the american democracy as a chaotic state of affairs. however, you know, when sometimes i feel like, you know, it is a little bit overblown here. >> overblown? >> yeah. >> interesting, tell me more

about that. >> i think that it is very easy to start blaming another country or another leader a, or leader of another country for what happens at home. and sometimes it is becoming difficult to see problems that exist in your homeland. >> just talk a little bit more about that. from your perspective. like what would putin get out of it? or what would the russian government have gotten out of it? because they really didn't want to see donald trump get elected or they just really didn't like hillary clinton? just based on your reporting. >> mostly i think hillary clinton was the best prepared president in the history of the united -- the latest history of the united states. and i think the russians were pretty much aware that hillary clinton was very knowledgeable about this strong points and weak points of president putin

and his lies. i think that putin saw clinton as somebody whose capable to withstand him, to stand against him. so that was one of the reason why they decided of course, you know, to conduct this smear campaign using facebook, twitter etc. against hillary personally. that's number one. number two, i think that the most important girl was to show to russian public and to public in the third world countries that american democracy is not about the will of the people but about this chaotic state of affairs, you know. when god knows what's going on on the ground that, you know, especially since donald trump kept saying that there was

election fraud. even though we do know that in fact, you know, the election fraud very limited in the united states. in fact it is almost non existent unlike in many other countries like russia. so i think for putin it was very important to show to russians that democracy doesn't really exist. >> what about now? what do you think president putin thinks of president trump now? >> judging by what he does, he probably is very upset. because trump wasn't able to deliver what he was expected to deliver. you know when donald trump won elections in november 2016, i remember vividly that, you know, there was liberation on almost each and every russian agency. >> celebration. >> absolutely. russians were celebrating donald trump's victory. they were drinking champagne. the expectation was that trump

was going to renounce sanctions and everyone will go back to business as usual. and then have corruption, you know, let's just be friends. we have a lot in common. >> do you think that we are giving president putin more credit than he deserves? a way? are we in some way feeding him by giving him this kind of attention? in the united states? >> president putin doesn't read any english. but i believe that he's given a diet of american newspapers. and i think that each day he reads american newspaper he thinks that he has become the ruler of the universe, the king of the world. the one who's running politics not just in russia but across the globe and especially in the

united states. i think he feels himself very proud. >> journalists have been killed this russia, including a colleague of yours in 2014 and i do want to ask you if you are personally concerned for your own safety? >> though a lot of my colleagues who got killed in the line of duty and one of my best friends got killed in 2006. however i really believe that journalism is a quite a dangerous profession all across the globe. it is not just russia. so it is the kind of job that either you do it or you don't. each of us will have, you know, the possibility to write about nice things. like about cosmetics, right? flowers, passion. and you are safe. but if you decide to write about politics, then you are getting into somebody's -- you know, you

are creating problems to some people and they don't like you. >> does it concern you when you hear of the american president refer to the media as the "enemy of the people" something he's done on a number of occasions? >> when i first read it on twitter. and of course i followed president of the united states on twitter as probably everybody else in the world, i was stunned. when a person who is the leader of the free world calls press as enemies of the people, that reminds me about what stalin used to say about any opposition in my country. in fact, you know, my grandfather was executed during the stalin's time just because he happened to study in the united states and he was an engineer. and he was called enemy of the people. so this is very dangerous when a leader of a huge country starts talking in terms of enemies.

i just hope that the american political system is strong enough, its institutions are strong enough to overcome this to protect the american democracy. >> thank you so much for speaking with us. >> thank you. thank you for inviting me. and that was a powerful reminder of the importance of investigative journalism and of course the dangers to those who pursue it. join us again tomorrow when i'll be in hanoi, vietnam for special coverage of the summit between president trump and north korea's leader kim jong un. that's it for us tonight. thanks for watching "amanpour and company" on pbs.

♪ ♪ - we recently traveled to dakar, which is the capital of senegal in the north. it's actually the westernmost point of africa. it's only about an eight-hour flight from new york. dakar is surrounded by desert, and it's a fascinating city. there are people on the sidewalks selling everything from shoes to coconuts to windshield wipers. the big market in town is called the tilene market. it's absolutely incredible. it is acres and acres and acres. you can buy anything you want,