captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc >> woodruff: good evening. i'm judy woodruff. on the newshour tonigh the federal reserve holds interest rates steady, despite months of pressure from president trump for a rate cut, but indicates it is open to easing up. then, a new report from the united nations further links saudi arabia to the murder of "washington post" journalist jamal khashoggi. and, our series onhe risks of f pandemiclu. with the prospecof a new strain of flu virus always o the horizon, researchers study e threat of animal-to-human contagion, and stockpile vaccines for the next outbreak. >> everything we think we know

about influenza changes almost every day because of the way this virus grows, mutates and spreads. we must look to the ture. invest in innovation. otherwise our planet can be doomed. >> woodruff: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour.

colle on their debts. eparations by definition are onlgiven to victims. so the moment you give me a victim without my consent. >> woodruff: the hearing fell on the day known as "juneteenth". it commemorates june 19th, 1865, when emancipation finally raseached slaves in tand more generally, the remnants of the defeated confederacy. in t persian gulf: the u.s. navy said today that a mine used to attack a japanese oil tanker

last week had "a striking resemblance" to iranian mines. tehran has denied any responsibility for thcks. meanwhile, israel wrapped up i largest military drill years. thousands of trwaps simulated a against the lebanese militia hezbollah-- which israel views as iran's pxy. a record 71 million people were displaced around the world year by war, persecution and other violence. the u.n. refue agency reports hat's an increase of more than two million from a year earlier. it says the total would amount to the world's 20th most populous country. the single largest group of refugees are still syans, at some 13 million. international prosecutors charged four men with murder today for blasting a malaysian airlines plane out of the sky over ukraine, in 2014. it happened in a region controlled by ukrainian rebels, backed by russia.

the attack killed all 298 people on the flight from amsterdam. dutch officials say the suspects probably thought it was a ukrainian military plane and they used a russian missile to destroy it. >> they saw to it that it was brought in, in the area where they wecharge and it was brought to the launch site. ancnd from this lsite, the mh-17 was shot down, and they w were responsible for thle operation. >> woodruff: russia and ukraine bid extradition of their citizens, but prosecutors say the suspects will be tried-- in absenti- next march. back in this country: aviarion expertsd that pilots need detailed training to ensure they can handle any problems in the boeing 737 max jet. reted pilot "sully" ullenberger once landed an airliner in the hudson river. aea congressional hearing, said 737 pilots should have

repeated sessions in flight simulators. 37 max has been grounded since fatal crashes in indonesia and ethiopia. president trump today awarded the presidential medal of freedom to supply-side economist arthur laffer. he pushed for the reagan tax cuts, arguing that tax cuts will generate enough growth to pay for themselves. the trump tax cuts relied upon the same theory. mainstream economists say that in fact, laffer's prescriptions have led to higher deficits whenever they've been tried. olln street today: stocks my anaged odest gains after the federal reserve's statement on interest rates. t d jones industrial average was up 38 points to close at 26,504. the nasdaq rose 33 points, and tedhe s&p 500 aight. and the library of congress has netamed a new u.s. aureate: joy harjo. shanis the first native amer woman to hold the position, and

will serve for the next year. harjo has won numerous awards nd is known for collections such as "the woman who fean from th sky"in mad love and war". still to come on the newshour: the fight over interestates between president trump and the federal reserve, new evidence isnking saudi arabia to the murder of journjamal khashoggi, how the trump administration's clean energy rollbacks may impact public health, and much more. >> woodruff: federal reserve chairman jay powell's comments about a potential interest rate cut marked a shift in the fed's assessment of where the economy is heading.re

wall journal" has been following and writing about all this, and joins me now.ba welcome to the newshour. greg, first of all, how unusual is it for the president to be talking abou demoting the chairman of the federal reserve? >> it's very unusual. really since the 1950s, at least i can't think of anyo president as so consistently and ferociously

berated the fed chairman in public. and it's especially unusual because president trump appointed this fed chairman a little over a year ago. it's even more unusual and unprecedented for president to talk about explore firing the fed chairman. now, all thatsaid, this all should be kept in proportion. i believe our best information that some people around trump did, in fact, explore the legal possibilities of removing jay powel fed chairman some time in the past winter and concluded that it was very difficult. in fact, best reading on the law is that the fed chairman can be onlyremoved for cause. he can't be removed because thed prt doesn't happen to like his monetary policy. and some time after those explorations, trump had a conversation jay powell where he basically said, "i guess itu with you. he answered the question yesterday because he was asked, but i don't actually believe there's any movement afoot right now white house to remove jay powell. >> woodruff: well, if there's no movement on that front, we know the president has been talking about he wants the fed to lower rates.

certainly ople who work for the president have been saying that. what does that say about the fed'ssindependence, that t kind of discussion is going on so close to the time when the fed-- wan the board has to the decision about what to do about interest rates? >> well, the president and his advisers clearly think and hope that by publicly calling on the chairman to cut interest rates itsoill have effect on the chairman's think, that of his colleagues. now, the fed chairman have always tried to make their decisions free of political influence. this is certainly not the first time a fed chairman has had to end off calls for lower interest rates because somebody in the political class thought it wouldbeetter. so in that sense, even though the degree of pressure is very large, i don't think that powell is facing an especially new situation. and he's been-- we believe he's been very clear to his colleagues, saying, "look, our job is to do the best thing for the americane, peofull employment, stable inflation. ratestn't, you know, c because the president wants it, but we must also not avoid cutting rates just to show we're

independent for its own sake if we thinkhat's what the economy calls for." >> woodruff: so let's talk, greg ip, quickly, about what the fe did do today. they said we did see some clouds on the horizo but we're keeping the rates we are right now. >> if you actually look at the data on the economy, it is not a picture of an economyin deep trouble. we've ploabl slowed from a 3% growth rte to around a 2% growth rate. there are no strong signs other than a few sort of signs in the bond market that a seregz is afoot. we had very good news, for example on retail sales in the m month ofy. bottom line-- you do not see the obvious signs of an economy rolling ove and so the fed is very reluctant tohange interest ratesnless they actually have decent evidence on hands that its called for. that said, they also have toe tto account the riskers that going to be wrong about their outlook. the global economy has slowed we see the manufacturing sector here and abroad soften a lot,

and there's ben an eruption anew in the last few weeks of trade tension talks broke down between the u.s. and china. that led to the threat o more tariffs there. the president threatened to impose very high tariffs on mexico. there is a lot of murkiness over the outlook. so powell basically said we see there might be a case for lowering the rates-- indeed, many of his colleaguing thin the rates will be lowered by year end-- but of butt' their nature to act only when they have evidence on hand and they womod like a few weeks to see whether there is evidence that the economy is slower enough to cut interest rates. woodruff: we'll see whether they're take a risk or not. but we can imagine they'll be watchiel this very cl as we know you are, greg ip, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> woodruff: the brutal murder of journalist jamal khashoggi, last october in saudi arabia's istanbul consulate in turkey,

has had implications on u.s. policy and the kingdom's reputation. as nick schifrin reports, today the u.n. released new details out how khashoggi was killed, and how the kingdom has responded. >> schifrin: the report erscribes how jamal khashoggi died and was disme by saudi officials. the u.s. has imposed sanctions on those officials and endorsed' saudi aratrials of what the kingdom calls a "rogue" operation without the knowledgep of cronce mohammad bin salman. today a state department official said "we are determined to press for accountability for every person who was responsle." also today the saudi minister of state for foreign affairs " tweeted tport contains clear contradictions and baseless allegations, which challenges its credibility." before that criticism, i interviewed the report's author, u.n. special rapporteur agnesma cald. welcome to the nwshour. we quote those inside the

consulate who were waiti for khashoggi's arrival. thge seems to s this was premeditated. >> there's very little doubt that murder was premeditated. you have already identified the presence of forensic doctor ind the team of 15 saudi officials. an hour before mr. khashoggi was actually killed they were discussing the dismemberment of his d boder so killing was planned, and killing was premeditated.. at i would could not ascertain was whether or not killi was the first objective or whether they were also considering kidnapping with killing a second

option in case kidnapping failed. >> schifrin: on the other hand, you quote a saudi officiag talkto khashoggi during thee incident: could their intention have been rn re tonce him to saudi arabia? >> there were a couple of nutes where they entertain with mr. khashoggi the idea of him goinga.k. there were a couple of sentencet related to him returning, but not sufficient, in opinion, to conclude that convincing him was primary objective. >> schifrin: the details that you write about, about how khashoggi was likely injected and dismemb ied areredibly difficult to read. the recordings you quote have not been made public.pu what do you want people to know about them? >> i think the first aspeskt recording i want to communicate

to people is the way mr. khashoggi increasingly became aware that his life was in danger. so when he enters the consulate, the first words are words of surprise because there are people there that hee was not expecting t find. and progressively going to a state of fear. >> schifrin: there is, of course, e big question ofof whether crown prince mohammad bin salman ordered this killing. and you write: do ublg crooup mohammad bin salmanad ordered this murder oro you believe what saudi officials say that it was a rogura opon? first, there is no doubt in my mind that this crime cannot qualify as a so-called rogue

operation. killing.kistate ever piece ofid ce, every element related to the circumstances of the killing--ll its location, its planning, how people arrived, how the team arrived in-- in the-- istanbul, the use of a private jet with diplomatic clearance, the location of the crime in the consulate, the pretense of oviding a governmental service to mr. khashoggi to trap himn back the consulate, the fact that the consul used theirth authorities to ensure that there re please present at the time of the killings-- all of that and far more demonstrate that the state is responsible r the killing. this is simply not a rogue operation. i cannot conclude who has ordered the crime on the basis

of what i ve collected. what i cancl cde is that is sufficient evidenceqce ring for us to act with duean diligenc to undertake the criminal investigation into individual liability. i think it is important toil understan nathe responsibility of high-level officials, such as the crown prince, are not solely derived from them or him ordering the crime. there are a range of otheron to criminal liability on the spot. for instance, did he order directly or indirectly incite the crime?cr did he or others know about the crime but failed to take action it?revent >> schifrin: the saudis say their trials will deliver justice. what's your response to that? no, the trial under the

current conditions will deliver justice. it's held behind closed ors. the identity of those on trial have not been revealed. the idebt dent of the chargesvee have not revealed. this is a crime of international nature which requiressp transparency which particularly, and especially, demands that all fair trl guarante beim implemented and fulfilled, whics is far from being the case atth the moment. >> schifrin: agnes callamard,us usmed special rapporteur, thankn you very much. >> okay, thank you very much.ve >> woodruff: tonight the saudigo government released statementes questioning the rapporteur's impartiality ath "reserveri right to take legal action to respond to the report." w >> woodruff: stay with u coming up on the newshour: where the 2020 democratic presidentiae

hopefuls stand on paying for college, breaking the ereotypes of classicalst performance with the rock star o of organ music, ad author sarahl blake shares her humble opinion oreparations for slavery. but first, president trump iske keeping a signature pledge toro roll back environmental regulations as part of his promise to try boosting the coal indust and other business. but as amna nawaz explains,en environmentalists say hispl replacemen for coal-fired power plants will not make a meaningful difference ing stoppe impact of climate change. >> nawaz: judy, the new rule-- called "affordable cle energy"-- replaces the "clean power plan", a signature climatu rule frombama administration.th the obama rules-- which couldha have led to the closing of older power plants-- never took effect after they were challenged in court by more than two dozen states and energy companies.e the trump plan: allows coal-fired plants to make

incremental improvements rather than mor upgrades. and it gives states the power to decide whether upgrades should be required.e states will hree years to decide.it it, too, will now be challengedn in court by a number of statesd and environmental gro juliet eilperin covers this closely for "the washingtonstus post" and joinnce again.ju juliette, welcome back to the newshour. let's start with pointing out what that difference is. what does tisnew rule change about the old obama-era rules? >> one of thent most impor things, which you just alluded to, was that it really empowerso the state decide the energy mix for their respective jurisdictions, and so rather thanecsetting ic emissionsta targets-- which is what the tama e.p.a. didking about how much reductions you needed to have in carbon dioxide andee greenhouse gases this is saying it's leaving it up to stateat regulators, and as a result, it's harder to predict how this rule will play out inte terms of what exact reductions

you'll get and you could have states adopting very different strategies in their resptivee ener markets snraw so one ofth those energy markets is specifically the coal industry. the e.p.a. administrator saidda today the rule willopefully "intent vise clean coal." this has been a signaturepr ise of president trump, too. but the industry has been in decline. what do we kn about the impact this new rule could have on coal? >> it could keep some agingco coal-fired power plants operating. real differencebe between the previous proposal among the obama administration that really outlined that no existing coal plant could meet the standards of what it wasgo going to setver time so you definitely could have individual states and individuao utilities can make upgrades and keepre coal- plants operating for longer, and ites doesn't compel the kind of fuel switching that wasth hallmark of the obama plan, where youre really had directive from thefe

feral government t switch over to whether it was natural gas, wind, solar, or other form, of, in.>> >> nawaz: juliette, it's worth pointing out that part of this was meant to bolster the coin industry. that industry has been in decline, though. what you can tell us about that? >> yes, certainly what we've seen is that there's shrinkingfm amountdemand for coal here in the united states from theen energy sector. d it does still have demandov overseas, and that's really where we've seen a slightti uptick. what you really are seeing is overall in the last couple of years, the coal industry has stabilized somewhat, but it's at a fraction of the-- of the size that it used to be. and there are no prospects forit t to grow in a significant measure, even though itco continues toxport coal toea areas including china, india, world.ewhere in the >> nawaz: much of the industrywa was already working towards hitting some of those goals. the rules that the obama era ha. set. how does this new rule changeei their behavior?do does it takehem off track,st

stop them in their tracks? >> it doesn't really shift thedi direction ically. i talked to, for example, folks like the c.e.o. and chairman d.t.e. energy based in detroit,h which is-- hasus really ambitpl pledges to cut its carbon emissions 50%emby 2030, and 80% by 2040. and, you know, he indicated that there's nothing that's going to change,an and what is really interesting is thatin at thisin the utility industry as a whole is pretty close to what the obamaoal is for 2030, that they have already-- the powerct sector in the u.s. has cut iem emissions 27%, compared to 2005 and the benchmark under obama was a 32% cut by that year in30 2030. so they're reay on track to make significant cuts. the significant issue isn hat whu look at what the science says and what manyan analysts calculate, the poer sector in the u.s. would have to make much deeper emissions cuts if it-- we are to keep, youow

know, kind of temperatures from exceeding globally two degrees celsius. so that's kind ofso the-- still the outstanding question. >> nawaz: so even those previous limits didn't go quite as far as some environmentalists would have liked. we know the rule faces threats of lawsuits, as we nengzed, frot attorneys general in a couple of states. what do we. h think willpenne next?do does it get held up in a legal court battle and never go into effect? >> well, certainly, there's a court battle that will start very soon. this seems more likely to take effect than the obama rule,wh ch did have an unconventional approach under the clean air act. so i think that the odds are in the e.p.a.'s favor in the nearrm term to be able to instituteth this rule,nd then, certainly, it remains a little unclear what will happen, whether it willul mately be held up in court or not.>> >> nawaz: juliet eilperin of the "washington post." thank you so much for your time> >> thank you. >>

>> woodruff: we resume our looko now at how prepared we are forie the nexuenza pandemic.no not the seasonal flu, whosest strains emerge every ar and weta take a flu shot to prevent. public health officials are watching bird and swinepo populations f the flu we can't predict-- looking for theprvi viruses we've never seen, and have vaccines against. alliam brangham reports for our regular coveragebout thedi "leading edge" of science, technology and medicine.>> >> brangham: at this county fair in northern ohio, young peopleco come to show off and sell thean animals they've raised. t sold!>> >> brangham: bu. andrew bowman is here for a much different rson-- he's looking for the first rumblings of a potential flu pandemic among these guys. he takes a simple nasal wipe that he'll later test for flu.he he and his team will do this thousands of times at fairs

across the country this year. pigs get the flu just likepi people do-- they get fevers,, they sneezeand cough. and when they're brought together for fairs and competitions, that flu canre spread. every year, tens of millions ofa ame come to fairs like this one.dr and dr. bowman says that everyon once in a while, that virus cano move from the pigs into humans. >> you know, we think about thie certainly occurring in southeast asia, other places of the worldr where we have a different animal, human interface. and thatwe think doesn'tpp happen in the u.s., but if you think about what we do at shows, and fairs, we certainly havean animals from multiple places coming together, and we create that animal-human interfaceat that's conducive to influenzaio transmi >> brangham: the good news isth this type of flu usually stops after it makes that inter- necies jump, meaning, one of us gets sick, but more.oe it doesn't spread from person to person.rs the bad news: given how fluvi viruses mutate, that could

change any minute.>> >> worst case a couple hundred cases in a given year, it's quite low.bu but realize, right, any one of those could be the one thath startsnext pandemic. >> brangham: then there's thevi viralhreat from the sky. each spring in cape may, new jersey, gratory birds makingjeth their way from south america to the arctic stop here. rth thedy turnstones and red knots are refueling for the trip by asting on the millions ti tiny eggs left by these matingho horseshoe crabs. and when the birds are here, sor are flu researchers, like dr. >>sa kercher. >> there is no other place, that we know of, that carries thisch much influenza in these birds. >> brangham: it's amazing, thiso looks like a beautiful beach. e >> exactly. but there's a lot more going on here than just birds on the shore, and a nice sun day. >> brangham: collectively, the birds carry dozens of flust strains in theirtomachs-- usually it never bothers them-- and by collecting their fecal samples, these scientists fromst

st. jude children's research hospital, can track how thosehot strains are evolving.th scour and scoop along thebe beach, they net other birds, swab them, and then relea them.t it's nocause they're afraid these birds will pass flu directly to people-- that rareli happens.'sit itecause all flu originates bin irds-- they're the naturalrlwo s biggest reservoir of the virus.wi with so many different species converging and mingling here, this is as a hotbed for viral research. >> we want to know what they'ree leaving behind, right? so that's why we're out here llecting all the samples.bu but what also we're concerned with is these birds, and other wild birds that migrate, they often mix with domestic birdof poputions.an and when they mix with domestic birds, domestic birds can getve very sick from...>> >> brangham: so that's ducks,

chickens... >> ducks, chickens, things inyo your back yard.ra >> brangham: every time a major flu pandemic has killed lots of humans, it's followed some version of this pattern-- flu moving from wild birds, tod estic animals, and then, into us. in that process, new strains ofi virus can be created, and that's what everyone's on the lookout for. usually when one of those novel strains makes the jump into humans, ithen hits a dead end. it doesn't spread further. but if that strain manages toap adapt so it can then go human to human, watch out.so so transmitting on, if i getck sick, and seriously sick, and then i'm able to pass that to other humans, that'sma probc?>> >> that's a pandemic. it would go to an outbreak, andh then on to a pandemic. and thatould be the most severe outcome that we could worry about. >> brangham: that's exactly what happened back in 2009. the h1-n1 virus jumped from pigh to humans in mexico a california.

and then it quickly spread. within six weeks, it had spread to multiple countries. within months nearly everyna nation on earth had cases.it it was a true pandemic.h1 h1-n1 proved incrediblyco contagious, but luckily, not that deadly.st still somewhere between 150,000n and 500,000 people died across the world, and more than 12,000 in the u.s.-- but those were still below the seasonal fu's usual toll.pu pueic health officials say world dodged a bullet. >> when we alized in theun united states that we needed top up the ante in our preparednesse response for pandemic influenza we made a decision to investhepa heavily in preng our nationfo for a pandemic inuenza.>> >> brangham: a big part of dr.gh rick bris job is to get the u.s. ready for the next pandemic.he he helps ovsee vaccinere research and development for the fe;?#al government.va

vaccines have r years beenma made using chicken eggs--th they're a superb vehicle for growing virus. bright says 95% of all flucc vaccines globally are made this way. this facility is contracted byth the vaccine maker sanofi pasteuo to churn out hundreds of thousands of eggs every day if a pandemic were to brk out. but bright says, this process-- which can take six to ninem ths-- is still too long. >> 33 million people will die while we're waiti for vaccinein li that pandemic scenario.>> >> brangham: 33 mn?>> >> so we have to count every day that passes from identification mething novel to where weca can deliver that vaccine not only in ju days but also when lives lost.li >> brangham: to shorten thatgo window, thrnment started a partnership with the pharma company seqirus to operate this plant in holly springs, northca carolina. here, they've stockpiled vaccines against some of themo more troubling, novel strains

that have emerged in the pastju t in case they re-emerge.th they're also creating new vaccines ung cells from mammals, instead of eggs.hi bright sayscould savewe weeks, maybe months.y >> these tn actually have growing year-round if they need the surge very quickly to makemo more vaccine for a crisis orpa expand even more for a pandemice response.>> >> brangham: but almost everyone agrees: the shape-shiftingat e of the influenza virus means all these efforts are still not enough.>> >> everything we think we know about influza changes almost every day because of the wayis this virus grows, mutates andsp spreads.we we must look to the future.in invest in innovation. reduce those bottlenecks andke make sure everyone has the

vaccine otherwise our planet cae be doomed.>> >> brangham: while that vaccine work is underway, surveillance teams ross the country keep an eye out, watching the virus, looking for the emergence of the next potential pandemic. for the pbs newshour, i'mwi lliam brangham. >iwoodruff: tomorrow, will concludes the series by focusing on the hunt for a universal flu vaccine. >> woodruff: we continue our coverage now of some of the keyo issues already shaping the 2020 race for president. and one of them is an issue thae already resonated strongly in the last presidential campaign-h the burden of college student debt.th iearly months of this race, that problem is a focus for even more candidates andth it's one ocentral issues being discussed.li lisa desjardins helps break down some of the key dividing linesof of what the candidates would dor >> reporter: how many of you ala

have student loan debt? .you all look kind of you >> anybody in here have studento loan debt? >> how many of you are dealing>i with student debt? >> desjardins: this has become m common sight on the campaign trail. in 2019, private and federalst student loan debt holders owed o collective $1.5 trillion. prree democratic candidates for president would ao raise theirha hands-- each is currently payino themselvtheir spouse. off student loan debts for themselves or their spouse.>> >> i was the first in my family to go to college, i have two kids under two, m paying offtu my student loans. >> this is kind of a personalis issue for us because chasten and udi live with six figure t debt.de>> >> desjardins: 2020 candidates'd ideas divide in a few ways--ar primarily, some would cutll college costs-- with differentmo for of free tuition. others tackle the debt end wi plans to erase or cut debt. massachusetts senatoabeth warren does both with one of the most detailed plans in the race she wants to make publ colleges and universitiestu tuition-free for all students, and expand the pell grant system for lower-income students to cover other college costs.

but warren's most striking proposal is to pay for up to$5 eb$50,000 in student loanper person depending on a family'sco income. warren estimates her plan would cost an estimated $1.25 trillior en years-- she would fund it with a new tax on the richest americans.er >> there are literally tens ofmi millions of americans who are o being crushed standing loan debt. >> desjardins: a few othersouwo also erase some studentde debt. o >> our plan will cancel a substantial amount of studentbt debt, and in some ways, probablo go further than senatorwa warren's.>> >> i would forgive a lot of that student loan debt in an argument for stimulus. >> desjardins: a larger group of candidates tackle how much debta college students rack up in the t rst place. some of those w makeit tuition free for all students at public two- or four-year colleges across e country.'s it's an idea that vermont senator bernie sanders pushed for in 2016.>> >> we should have free tuitionat at public colleges and

universities. that should be a right of all americans, regardless of the income of their families.>> >> desjardins: but some of the candidates are worried about benefiting wealthy families. >> o. i am not for free college for all. >> desjardins: formas congressman beto o'rourke says he wants a focus on lower-income communities.co >> i want to make sure we're also not paying the full freight of wealthy aricans at a time of historic wealth and incomety inequain >> desjardins: o'rourke ande others lling for what theyll call "debt free" higheruc education. that woulnot make tuition free automatically but instead woulde tlp students who can't affordth their college cosgraduate without debt.se several senators co-sponsored a bill in 2018 to do this, makingu sure that tuition, room,bo board, books and other expenses are pd for-- they do not have to take out any loans.he on e more moderate end of t spectrum, many candidates arell exlling for a refinancing of existing student loan debt at a hwer rate. and president tru alsoma

made some changes to student loan policy while in office.>> >> student loan debt.i' i'm goingo work to fix it.be because it's outrageous what's happening. >> desjardins: he called for a cap on student loans, in thepe hopes that this would force colleges to reduce their costs.t he"time" just to fill out larger picture a bitl more,re here's what the latest numbers show. the average debt for a college student is more than $29,000. for black students it's evenhi higher, an avera debt of $34,000. that's higher than for4, any otl racar ethnic group.o we areed by an education reporter. what is.m the prob exactly inrm terms of paying for higher education right now? >> well, the problem ismu ltilayered. i. mean, nobody expwhected when we created this federal stent d system that it would be skewed so heavily towards debtan and that tuition would continue to rise. but really, as long as highereds

education rem the ultimate ticket for a middle class, it'so going to be very hard forpt families toout of it. and public colleges andun universities as well as private colleges do continue to raise tuition so this is the bindwe we're in right now.>> >> this is obviously high-ranking issue,-r especially forocrats, just after health care. of what'seqissue equitable. about, if you're helping students, differentstst ents shoulder debt inff different ways. you can hit on that debate? ta absolutely. so fundamy, right, people with higher education in thisco country are better off than people without it. when you start talking about targeting federal money towardrg people who have higher eduretion, immediately, yo talking about possibly a more-advantaged group. w, somew, plans, like elizabethr warren's, have been trying to reallyarget that a so that they're reachingth the groupat you mentioned, like african americans lower income people, and that the debt relief goes there. we really don't want to end upwi with a system where, say,de

dentists or doctors, who have six figures of student ln debt but very high incomes end up absorbing a ntge amof thefe federal debt relief. >> one of the things i think isn conffor folks is the terminology-- debt free, tuition hree. can you take usgh how youco look at those two ideas? >> sure. i think this is ally important, especially when we talk about presidential candidates, becau on the one hand, free public college, this is a topic or an idea that beie sanders put on the table in the 2016 election campaign, that catch is that we don't have a federal public college system. sy have a state public college system, so any kind of federal proposal would be offering machg funds and trying to fund tuitions at public clnlz, universities, maybe community colleges. but that wouldn't necessarily bg something that state would agree to. so tuition funding is something-- is one thing. forgivenessor debt is a little bit different, and in talking about kind of just

funding the money that students borrowy or forgiving those loans that is something the federal government has the ability to do with the stroke of a pen. a now, thument becomes if you are forgiving loans, you're forgiving, perhaps, people who didn't, you know-- borrowedmo more. man they didn't work their way as muchll through e and people start to say, "i worked harder, and i didn't get my loans, and thisn is er getting more money back." so that's where these arguments ciewnd o >> i'm curious what, do youin think? how fast and how far has the decratic field in particular moved on this whole idea of education funding,higher ed? >> it really is a middle-class kitchen-table issue. it's not just g aerational issue. you have retireese. facing studt debt. so i think with bernie sanders putting thion the table really in the 2016 election with his call for free college, you now have almost all of the candidates trying to put a stake in the ground and say, "yes, i stand for reducing the burden of debt," not just because, youkn know, it's for getting americans

more educated but also because people need the loans forgiveness so they can startbu businesses, so that they can buy homes, maybe start families, and really participate in the american life. it's really a broad recognition, i think, thate student loan has become an albatross around the neck of everyone's. >> i know you're following everyone's record on this, and we f apreciate it. >> thank you, so much, lisa. >> woodruff: the pipe organ haso g been called "the king of instruments", but because of its size and complexity, it has for undreds of years been associated with churches and cathedrals. but one young organist is out to shatter that mold. special correspondent cat wise recently went to an organ concert in los angeles to learno more. it's part of our ongoing series on arts and culture,as."♪ ♪

>> reporter: he has been described as a rock star, flamboyant, provocative, and a revolutionary. cameron carpenter is unlike any se organist you hav or heard. are you essentially trying to rewrite the rules of organ playing?>> >> well, no, because i'm not invested in the rules of organ playing. ♪ i' i've never really been an organ mus fan. i've been a fan of, of the instrument-- of playing it. >> reporter: for fans of organc music who came to listen to bach's famous "toccata and fugue in 'd' minor" at a recentinnc oncert in los angeles andex expected a traditional

interpretation, they were likely disappointed.di but for 38-year-old carpenter, bucking tradition is often theal >> i'm not sure that when i play that i'm necessarily playing inh the way the composer intended and that has never really bothered me.♪ ♪ for me it's always been totally clear that the only place any authority can possibly lies with the individual listener.>> >> reporter: we caught up with cipenter as he was practic for that night's performance on a stunning 6,000 pipe organ thao also bucks tradition, designed a in part hitect frank gehry, which looms over thest stage of the walt disney concert hall. >> when i play the organ i don'c much think abotics, purists, othe organists. i mostly think about people like my father who coul't have told the difference between music byr

leonard bernstein or johannse sebastian bach. i try to play in a way which is understandable. >> reporter: is it physicallyle ching to play this instrument? >> yes. the organ is a complicated instrument, which contains the entire spectrum of hearing from the threshold of audibility. like that to extreme, extremeow power, and everything in between, which is really much more important since thetr extremes aren't all thatenfr frey used. ♪ >> reporter: carpenter grew up iaar meadville, pennsylvan he was homeschooled, studied dance, and went on to attend the orilliard school in new he tends to elicit strong reactions from fans and critics. some reviewers have praised his "superhuman talents," othersha have called his interpretations "grotesque".

he became known for his glittery wardrobe and punkish looks, and he has aarned a reputation brash, bold, breaker of organ stereotypes. a >> itolutely required that you promote everything that you're doing because to have a career as a classical musician you essentially have to beg for attention. >> reporter: but carpenter says he has recently matured. >> my personal style now is far more reserved than it used to be even a few years ago. >> reporter: really. why? >> becausey expression of howi i wanted to be seen changed. it changed after my father died. and it also changed after my organ was completed ♪ >> reporter: the organ he's talking about is a oa kind instrument that was more than thn years in the making. the international touring organ, chs custom made by marshall &

ogletree in masetts, and cost $2 million to build. he's taken digital recordgs of notes and tones from more than 30 traditional pipe organs and incorporates them in his instrument. whainspired the internation touring organ project? >> technology and my love of music. my wish to perform. >> reporter: hauled around in a large truck, the system consists of about0 cases of gear, that take more than four hours to set up. carpenter explains that in today's competitive arena ofda commercial music playing, the touring organ is what allows him to pursue a career as a musician. >> it allows me to play in a great many places that i wouldn never work.

and that one would never associate with organ playing or music of any kind. so in that sense it's absolu groundbreaking. e> reporter: beyond pulling sagan out of churches or concert halls, carpente traditions of classical music as a whole must be dispelled.st >> now in the early 21st century, classical music is of effort anding its audience. this is a field that is fraught th difficulty in terms expectation, of tradition and historicity and authenticity. so eyebrows get raised when a classical performer suggestsat that in fact people come to hear performers. you don't buy a ticket to hear an organ and you don't really buy a ticket to hear js bach.bau you buy a ticket to hear the

person playing js bach on the organ those are different things. >> reporter: love him or not, a review of the los angelesco concert called carpenr he has a new album out and isc rently on a worldwide tour. for the pbs newshour, i'm catwi wise in los angeles.a lause ) >> woodruff: as we reported earlier in the program, a house subcommittee held hearings on legislation that would pay reparations for slavery. whe purpose of the hearin to examine: "the legacy of the trans-atlantic slave trade, itsm continuingct on the

community and the path to restorative justice." sarah blake is a novelist who has been thinking about reparations d why past attempts have failed. in her humble opinion, this time is different. >> how long is now?s testion, grafitti-ed high above my head on a blank wall near my apartment in berlin, greeted me daily, years ago.is anonymous and ntial, the phrase captured the spirit of that city, but i've been thinking about it more and more lateying to make sense of what feels like a historical moisent here: a moment when hi country appears to be acknowlging a throughline between our past and our present in a way i've never seen. for starters, when is now in this country? i've spent the past eight years writing a multi-generational family novel that tries to understand y. as faulkner wrote, and presidenm obama reminded us, "the past isn't dead. it isn't even past."

and i began to see how family memory is made of half-truths that become false myth, which echoes how this country's memoro works as well, its history passed down as an open secret, half-told. the myth: slavery is over. the past is past. the truth: its consequences live on, ensuring that who we are and who we were have always been twin faces in our country's mirror. a mirror african ams have held up to the country for years. ut a mirror which the collective white imagination has avoided, until now. stories of voter suppression in georgia, and in north carona. law enforcement unable tore restrain white supremacy in charlottesville. blackface in yearbooks. c birthrigizenship on thet table. if you are looking for social justice, t system is broken. or maybe, broken open for all, at last, to see. the serious, exteive discussion of reparations-- from college campuses, to presidential candidates-- and

the national reckoning with ouru public memorials, suggests then white imaginat beginning to see beyond the veil we hungtw between then and now. seeing th our collective racial past is, and always has been, present in our institutions. it never stopped.n matter what we told ourselves. how long, indeed, is no if we agree that policy change is only possible wh collective imaginations shift, then it is fitting that the talk of reparations now recalls the enormous shift asked of the country's imagination during reconstruction. and the questions asked 150ye years ago: who are we and who de ant to be as a country, are w questions we are asking again.t but w this time, we look at the truth in the mirror, and break now fromhen, making aue truer now-- a newer now-- one " that doesnrget" the past, but confronts, acknowledges, ret constand so, we can hope, repairs.

>> woodruff: the novels sa blake.he and that's the newshour forto tonight. i'm judy woodruff.in join online and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and see you soon. >> major funding forurhe pbs newsho has been provided by:g >> ordering takeout. >> finding the west route.ta >> talking for hours >> planning for showers. ou can do the things you like to do with a wireless plan designed for you. with talk, text and data. consumer cellular. learn more at consumercellular.tvor elco ab >>bel. a language app that teaches real-life conversations in a nep language, likish, french, german, italian, and more. l.tien >> financial services firm raymond james.vi >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions: and individuals.s:

>> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions t pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llcsp ed captiy media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.orgd >> you're watching pbs.

hello, everyone. welcome to "amanpour." here's what's coming up. >> i don't know.w e hell do you lose this election, right? >> president trump sets his o sights2020 in florida. we're joined by the state's republican senator rick scott. then, the arab world's first freely elected president dies on trial. what mohamed morsi's fate tells us about egypt and democracy. plus -- >> you can't just walk up to a u im girl and start spitting game or something. wh am i supposed to say? hey, can i get your father's number? >> yes, why not? >> comedian tells us how his new series cnects his egyptian roots to his americafe.