captioning sponsored uc newshour prons, llc ll >> woodruff: good evening. i'm judy woodruff. >>dr on the newshour tonight: the federal reserve holds interest rates steady, despite months of pressure from president trumpe for a rt, but indicates it is open to easing up. then, a new report from thepo united nations further links saudi arabia to the murder of "washington post" journalist jamal khashoggi. and, our series on the risks of andemic flu. with the prospect of a strain of flu virus always on the horizon, researchers study the threat of animal-to-human contagion, and stockpilene vaccis for the next outbreak. >> everything we think we know about influenza changes almost every day because of the way this virus grows, mutates ands.

we must ok to the future. invest in innovation. otherwise our planet can be doomed. >> woodruff: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour. onfu >> majoing for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> babbel.ha a language app teaches real-life conversations in a new language, like spanish, french, german, italian, and more. babbel's 10-15 minute lessons are available as an app, or online. more information on babbel.com. >> consumer cellular. >> supporting social entrepreneurs and their solutions to the world's most pressing problems--

skollfoundation.org. >> the lemelson foundation. committed to improving lives through invention, in the u.s. and developing countri a. on the welemelson.org. >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions: >this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woodruff: the federal reserve is leaving its benchmark n terest rate unchanged, but that could changee near future. today's announcemet came in the face of renewed pressure from president trump to cut rates.

chairman jerome powell said the central bank may need to intervene, because growth indicators worldwide have been disappointing. >> apparent progress on trade turned to greater uncty, and our contacts in business and agriculture report heightened concer over trade developments. the question is whether these uncertainties will continue to weigh on the outlook and thus call for additional monetaryy pold accommodation. >> woodruff: we'll explore the fed's decision-- and thes presidenessure-- after the news summary. former white house communications direct hope hicks was interviewed today by the u.s. house judiciary committee, but refused to say much. hicks was the first s administration official cited in the special counsel's russia report to go before a congressional panel. democrats said she refused to discuss r white house work or even to say where her office had been. the white house argued she had immunity. democrats called that claim "bogus".ld congress has ts first hearing on reparations for slavery, in more than a decade.

at issue is proposal for a bipartisan commission to study the question and make recommendations. the house judiciary committee heard today from witnesses ranging from actor danny glover to senator cory booke a democratic presidential candidate. author ta-nehisi coates argued the legacy of slavery lives to this day. >> enslavement reigned for 250 years on these shores. when it ended this country could have extended its hallowed principles-- life, liberty a the pursuit of happiness to all regardless of color. but america had other principles in mind. the guard of bondage was lustful and begat many heirs. what this committee must knowis while emancipation dead bolted the door against thets of america, jim crow wedged the windows wide open >> woodruff: on the other side, writer coleman hughes, who said he is descended from slaves owned by thomas jefferson.

he argued that reparations would create false victims. >> i understand that reparations are about what people arewed regardless of how well they're doing.nd i stand that. but the people who are owed for slavery are no longer here.ar and wnot entitled to collect on their debts. reparationsy definition are only given to victims. so the moment you give me reparations you've made me into a victim without my consent. >> woodruff: e hearing fell on the day known as "juneteenth". k it commemorates june 19th, 1865, en emancipation finally reached slaves in texas, and s re generally, the remna the defeated confederacy. in the persian gulf: the u.s. navy said today that a mine used tato attack a japanese oier last week had "a striking resemblance" tiranian mines. tehran has denied any responsibility for the attacks.

meanwhile, israel wrapped up its largest military drill in years. thousands of troops simulated a war against the lebaneseilitia hezbollah-- which israel views as iran's proxy. a record 71 million people were displaound the world last year by war, persecution and otheviolence. the u.n. refugee agency reports that's an increase more thanas two million from a year earlier. it says the total would amount to the world's 20th most populous country. thsingle largest group of refugees are still syrians, at some 13 million. international prosecu charged four men with murder today for blasting a malaysians airliane out of the sky over ukraine, in 2014. it happened in a region controlled by ukrainian rebels, backed by russia. the attack killed all 298 people on te flight from amsterdaig

dutch officials say the suspects robably thought it was a ukrainian military plane and they used a russian missile tohe destroy it. >> they saw to it that it was brought in, in the area where they were in chae and it was brought to the launch site. and from this launch site, the mh-17 was shot down, and they were responsible for this wholer operation. >> woodruff: russia and ukraine forbid extradition of their ytizens, but prosecutors the suspects will be tried-- in absentia-- next march. back in this country: aviion experts warned that pilots need detailed training to ensure they can handle any problems in the boeing 737 max jet. retired pilot "sully" sullenbger once landed an airliner in the hudson river. at a congressional hearing, he said 737 pilots should have repeated sessions in flight simulators.be the 737 max ha grounded since fatal crashes in indonesia and ethiopia.

president trump today awarded t the presidential medal of freedom to supply-side economist arthur laffer.re he pushed for the reagan tax cuts, arguing that tax cuts wiln generatgh growth to pay for themselves. the trump tax cuts relied upon the same theory.e mainstream economists say that in fact, laffer's presonspt have led to higher deficits whenever they've been tried.on wall street today: stocks e'naged only modest gains after the federal resestatement on interest rates. the dow jones industrial averag was up 38 points to close at 26,504. the nasdaq rose 33 points, and the s&p 500 added eight. and the library of congress has named a new u.s. poet laureate: joy harjo. she is the first native american e man to hold the position, and will serve for xt year.e harjo has won numerous awards and is known for coons such as "the woman who fell from

the sky" and "in mad love and m war". still to come on the newshour: the fight over interest rates between president trump and the federal reserve, new evidence linking saudi arabia murder of journalist jamal khashoggi, how the trump dministration's clean energy rollbacks may impact public health, and much more. >> woodruff: federal reserve> chairman jay powell's comments about a potential interest rate cut marked a shift in the fed's assessment of where the economys is heading. but they also came after president trump fired yet another shot at the fed chairman he selected. the president was asked yesterday about news reports that he wanted to demote powell. bloomberg news reported the

white house had looked into doing sthis past winter. the president neither denied nor confirmed it. >> we'll see what happens. they're going to be making an announcement pretty soon, so we'll see what happens. but i want to be given a level playing field and so far i haven't been. ay woodruff: jay powell, in turn, was asked tbout possible threats from the president. re could you clarify what you would do if thedent tweets or calls you to say he would like to demote you as fed chair? >> i think the law is clear thaa a four-year term and i fully intend to serve it.g >> woodruff: g of "the wall street journal" has been following and wring about all this, and joins me now. welcome back to tshour. greg, first of all, how unusual is it for the president to be lking about demoting the chairman of the federal reserve? >>t's very unusual. really since the 1950s, at least i can't think of any president who haso consistently and ferociously berated the fed chairman inic pu and it's especially unusual because president trump appointed this fed chairman a ttle over a year ago.

it's even more unusual and unprecedented for president to talk about explore firing the fed chairman. now, all that said, this a should be kept in proportion. i believe our best information is th some people around trump egal in fact, explore the possibilities of removing jay powell as fed chairman some time in the past wintercl and ced that it was very difficult. in fact, best reading on the law is that the fed chairman can be only remove for cause. he can't be removed because thet president doeshappen to like his monetary policy. and some time after those explorations, trump had a conversation jay powell where he basically said, "i guess i'm stuck with you. he answered the question yesterday because he was asked, but i don'tve actually bel there's any movement afoot right now in the white house to remove jay pow wl. >> woodrufl, if there's no movement on that front, we know the president has been talking about he wants the fed to lower rates. certainly people who wrk for the president have been saying that. what does that say about the fed's independce, that this kind of discussion is going on

so close to the time when the fed-- when the boa has to make the decision about what to do about interest rates? >> well, the president and his advisers clearly think and hope that by publicly calling on the chairman to cut interest rates it will have some effect on the chairman's think, that of his colleagues. now, the fed chairman have always tried to make their decisions free of political influence. this is certainly not the first time a fed chairman has had to fend off calls for lower interest rates because somebody in the political class thought it would be better. so in that sense, even though the degree of pressure is very lage, i don't think thowell is facing an especially new situation. and he's been-- believe he's been very clear to his colleagues, saying, "look, our job is to do the best thing for the american people, full employment, stable inflation. we mustn't, you know, cut ratesc se the president wants it, but we must also not avoidng cuttates just to show we're independent for its own sake if atwe think that's the economy calls for." >> woodruff: so let's talk, gr ip, quickly, about what the

fed did do today. they said we did seeme clouds on the horizon, but we're keeping the rates we are right. no >> if you actually look at the data on the economy, it is not a picture of an economy ineep trouble. we've ploabl slowed from a 3% growth ratend to ar a 2% growth rate. there are no strong signs other than a few sort of sig in the bond market that a seregz is afoot. we had very good news, for example on retail sales in the month of may. bottom line-- you do not see the obvious signs an economy rolling over. and so the fed is very reluctant to change intest rates unless they actually have decent evidence on hands that its called for. that said, they also have tont take into acc the riskers that going to be wrong about their outlook. the global economy has slowed down. we see the manufacturing sector here and abroaden so a lot, and there's been an eruption anew in the last few weeks of trade tensions.

talks broke down between the u.s. and china. that led to the threat of more tariffs there. the president threatened to imposeery highariffs on mexico. there is a lot of murkiness over the outlook. powell basically said we see there might be a case for lowering the rates- indeed, many of his colleaguing think the rates will be lowered by ar end-- but of but it's their nature to act only when they have evidence on hand and they would like aee few more to see whether there is evidence that the economy is slower enough to cut interest rates. >> woodruff: we'll see whether they're take a risk or not. bu can imagine they'll be watching this very closely, as we know you are, greg ip, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> woodruff: the brutal murder of journalist jamal khashoggi, last october in saudi arabia's istanbul consulate in turkey, has had implications on u.s.he policy andingdom's reputation. as nick schifrin reports, today

the u.n. released new details about how khashoggi was killed,n and how theom has responded. >> schifrin: the report describes how jamal khashoggi died and was dismembered by saudi officials. the u.s. has imposed sanctions on those officials and endorsed saudi arabia's trials of what the kingdom calls a "rogue" operation without the knowledge of crown prince mohammad bin salman. today a state department offici said "we are determined to press for accountability fory eve person who was responsible." also today the saudi minister of state for foreign affairs tweeted the "report contains clear contradictions and baseless allegations, which challenges its credibility." bere that criticism, i interviewed the report's author, u.n. special rapporteur agnes callamard. welcome to the newshour. we quoteose inside the consulate who were waiting for khashoggi's arrival.

that seems to suggest this was premeditated. >> there'svery little doubt that murder was premeditated. yohave alread identified the presence of d forensictor ind the team of 15 saudi officials. anef houre mr. khashoggi was actually killed they werei discu the dismemberment of his d so killing was planned, and killing was premeditated.d. what i wo could not ascertain was whether or not killing was the first objective or whether they were also consideri kidnapping with killing a second option in case kidnaing failed. >> schifrin: on the other hand, you quote a saudi official talking to khashoggi during thee

incident: could their intention have been return toe him to saudi arabia? >> there were a couple of minutes where they entertain with mr. khashoggi the idea of him going back.k. there were a couple of sentencet rated to him returning, but not sufficient, in my opinion, to concludethat convincing him was a primary objective. >> schifrin: the details that you write about, about how khashoggily was lik injected and dismembered are incredibly difficult to read. the recordings you quote have not been made what do you want people to know about them? >> i think thefirst aspeskt recording i want to communicate to people is the way

mr. khashoggi increasingly became aware that his life was in danger. so when he enters the consulate, the first words are words of herprise because there are people there tha was not expecting to find.nd progressively going to a state of fear. >> schifrin: there is, of course, the big question ofof whether crown prince mnammad alman ordered this killing. and you write: do ublg crooup mohammad bin salmanad ordered this murder oro you believ what saudi officials say that it was a rogue operation? first, there is no doubt in my mind that thisnn crime qualify as a so-called rogue operation. killing.kistate ever piecef evidence, every

element related to theum ciances of the killing--ll its location, its planning, how people arrived, how the team arrived in-- in the-- in istanbul, the use ofe a priv jet with diplomatic clearance, the location of the crime in tho ulate, the pretense of providing a governmental service to mr. khashoggi to trap him back in the f consulate, tht that the consul used theirth authorities to ensure that there were no please present at the tim of the killingsl of that and far more demonstrate that the state is responsible for the killing. this is simply not rogue operation. i cannot conclude who has e ordered the cr the basis of what i havecollected. at i can conclude is that

is sufficient evidencece requiring for uso act with due diligence and to undertake the criminal investigatn into individual liability. i think it is important toil understand nathe responsibility of high-level officials, such as the crown prince, are not solely derived from them or him ordering theth crime. e are a range of other to criminal lead liabily on the spot. for instance, did he order directly or indirectly incite e crime?cr did he or others know about the crime but faind to take act to prevent it? >> schifrin: the saudis say eir trials wi deliver justice. what's your response to that? >> no, the trial under the currentconditions will not deliver justice. it's held behind closed doors.

the identity of those on trial have not been revealed. the ebt dent of the chargesve have not been revealed. this is a crime ofnternational nature which requiressp transparency which particularly, ands especially, demahat all fair trial guarantees beim plemented and fulfilled, whichis is far from being the case atth the mscment. >frin: agnes callamard,us usmed special rapporteur, thankn you very much. >> okay, thank you very mucve >> woodruff: tonight the saudieo gent released a stementes questioning the rapporteur's impartiality and "reserve theri right to take legal action to respond to the report." w >> woodruff: stay with us. coming up on the newshour: wher2 the 2democratic presidentialpe hopefuls stand on paying for college, breaking the stereotypes of classicalst performance with the rock star o of organ music, and author rahbl

blake shares her humble opinion on reparationfor slavery.bu but first, president trump iske keeping a signature pledge toro roll back environmentalre regulations as part of his prolse to try boosting the c industry and other business. but as amna nawaz explains,en environmentalists say his replacement plan for coal-fired power plants will not make a meaningful difference in stopping the impact of climate change. >> nawaz: judy, th rule-- called "affordable clean energy"-- replaces the "clean wer plan", a signature climateru rule from the obama administration.th the obama rules-- which could have led to the closing of older power plants-- never took effect after they were challenged in court by more than two dozen states and energy companies.e the trump plan: allows coal-fired plants to make incremental improvements rather than major upgrade and it gives states the power to decide whether upgrades should

be required. states will have three years to decide., it it, tll now be challengedin in court by a number of statesd and environmental groups. juliet eilperin covers thislo ly for "the washingtonst post" and joins us once again.ju juliette, welcome back to the the nleshour. s start with pointing out what that difference is. what does this r newle change about the old obama-era rules? >> one of the mo important things, which you just alluded to, was that it really empowers the state to the energy mix for their respective ratherictions, and s than setting specific emissionsa targets-- which is wh the obama e.p.a. did talking about how much reductions you needed to have in carbon dioxide andee greenhouse gases-- this is saying it's leaving it up to stateat regulators, and as a result, it's harder to predict how this rule will play out inte terms of what exact reductionsll yoet and you could have states adopting very different strategies in the respectivee

energy markets snraw so one ofhh se energy markets is specifically the coal industry. the e.p.a. administrator saidda today the rule will hopefully "intent "se clean coa this has been a signature promise of president trump, too. but the industry has be in decline. what do we know about the impact this new rule could have on coal? >>ould keep some agingco coal-fired power plants operating. a real differencebe between the previous proposal amoni the obama adration that really outlined that no existing coal plant couldteet standards of what it wasgo going to set over time. so you definitely could havet individuales and individual utilities who can make upgrades and keep coal-fired plants operating for longer, and ites doesn't compel the kind of fuel switching that was the hallmark of the obama plan, whereyoure really had directive from thefe federal government to switch over to whether it was natural gas, wind, solar, or other form,

of, in.>> >> nawaz: juliette, it's worth pointing os that part of t was meant to bolster the coalin industry. that industry has been in decline, though. what you can tells aboutthat? >> yes, certainly what we've seen is that there's shrinkingam amount of demand for coal here in the united states from theen energy sector. d it does still have demandov overseas, and that's where we've seen a slightti uptick. what you really are seeing is overall in the last couple of years, the coal industry has stabilized somewhat, but it's at a fraction of t-- of the size that it used to be. and there are no prospects forit it to grow in a significant measure, even though itco continues to export coal toea areas including china, india, and elsewhere in the world.>> >> nawaz: much of the industrywa was already working towards hitting some of those goals. the rules that the obama era ha. set. how does this new rule their behavior?do does it take them off track,st stop them in their tracks?t >>oesn't really shift thedi direction dramatically. i talked to, for example, fks

like the c.e.o. and chairman of d.t.e. energy based in detit,wh which is-- has really ambitiousl pledgeso cut its carbon emissions 50%em by 2030, and 80% by 2040. and, you know, he indicated that there's nothing that's going to change,an and so what is really interesting is tatin at thi point, the utility industry as a whole is pret close to what the obama goal is for 2030, that they have already-- theowerct sector in the u.s. has cut itsem emissions 27%, compared to 2005 and the benchmark under obama was a 32% cut by that year in30 2030. so they're really on track to make signifantuts. the significant issue is that when you look at what the science says and wt maan analysts calculate, the powerse sector in the u.s. would have to ma much deeper emissions cuts if it-- we are to keep, youkiow know of temperatures from exceeding globally two degrees celsius. so that's kind ofso the-- still the outstanding question.

>> nawaz: so even those previous limits didn't go quite as far as some environmentalists would have liked. we know the le faces threa of lawsuits, as we nengzed, frot attorneys general i a couple of states. what do we. think will happenne next?do does it get held up in a legal court battle and never go into effect? >> well, ctainly, there's a court battle that will start very soon. this seems more likely to take effec than the obama rule, which did have an unconventional approach under the clean air act. ds i think that the oare in the e.p.a.'s favor in the nearrm term to be able to instituteth this rule, and then, certainly, it remains acl little r what will happen, whether it will ultimately be held up in court or not.>> >> nawaz: juliet eilperin of the "washington post." thank you so much for your time> >> thank you. >> no woodruff: we resume our look now at how prepared we are forne the next influenza pandemic.no

ot the seasonal flu, st strains emerge every year and wa take a flu shot to prevent. public health officials arend watching birdwinepo populations for the flu we can't predict-- looking for theprvi viruses we've never seen, and have vaccines against. william brangham reports for our gular coverage about thedi "leading edge" of science, technology and medicine.>> >> brangham: at this county fair in northe ohio, young peopleco come to show off and sell thean animals they've raised. >> sold!>> >> brangham: but dr. andrew bowman is here for a much different reason-- he's lking for the first rumblings of a potential flu pandemic among these guys. he takes a simple nasal wipeth at he'll later test for flu.he he and his team will dohis thousands of times at fairs across the country this year.pi get the flu just likepi people do-- they get fevers,

they sneeze, and coug and when there brought together for fairs and competitions, that flu canre spread. every year, ts of millions of americans come to fairs like this one.dr and dr. bowman says that everyon once in a while, that virus cano move from the pigs into humans. >> you know, we think about thie certainly occurring in southeast asia, other places of the worldr ceere we have a different animal, human int and that, we think doesn'tpp happen in the u.s., but if you think about what we d shows, and fairs, we certainly havean animals from multiple places coming together, and we create that animal-human interfaceat that's conducive to influenza transmission. >> brangham: the good news isth this type of flu usually stops after it makes that inter- species jump, meaning, one of us gets sick, but not more.oe it doesn't spread from person ts pe.rs the bad news: given how fluvi viruses mutate, that could change any minute.>> >> worst case a couple hundred cases in a given year, it'siqu low.bu but realize, right, any one of

those could be the one that starts the next pac. >> brangham: then there's thevi viral threat from t sky. each spring in cape may, new jersey, migratory birds makingjh their way from south america to toe arctic stop here.th these ruddy turs and red knots are refueling for the trip by feasting on e millions ofti tiny eggs left by these matingho horseshoe crabs. and when the birds are here, sor are fluesearchers, like dr. lisa kercher.>> >> there is no other place, that we know of, that cathisch much influenza in these birds. >> brangham: it'slomazing, this looks like a beautiful beach. e >> exactly. ot there's a lot more going on here than just birthe shore, and a nice sunny day. >> brangham: collectively, the birds carry dozens st strains in their stomachs-- usually it never bothers them-- and by collecting their fecal samples, these scientists fromst st. je children's research hospital, can track how thosehot strains are evolving. s

they scour andop along thebe beach, they net other birds, swab them, and then release them. it's not because the afraid these birds will pass flu directly to people-- that rareli happens.it it's because all flu originatese in birds-- the the naturalggwo world's bit reservoir of the virus.wi with so many different species heconverging and mingling , this is as a hotbed for viral research.>> >> we want to know what they'ree leaving behind, righ so that's why we're out here cllecting all the samples.bu but what also we'cerned with is these birds, and other wild birds that migrate, they often mix with domestic birdof populations.an and when they mix with domestic birds, domestic birds can getve very sick from...>> >> brangham: so that's ducks, chickens... >> ducks, chickens, things inyo your back yarra >> brangham: every time a major flu pandemic has killed lots of

emans, it's followed som version of this pattern-- flu moving from wild birds, toal domestic an and then, into us. in that process, new strains ofi virus can be created, and that's what everyone's on the lookout for. usually when one of those novel strains kes the jump into humans, it then hits a dead end. it doesn't spread further. but if that strain manages toap adapt so it can then go human to human, watch out.so so transmitting on, if i getck sick, and seriously sick, and shen i'm able to pass that to other humans, tha problematic?>> >> that's a pandemic. it would go to an outbreak, andh then on to a pandemic. and that would be the most severe outcome that we could worry about. >> brangham: that's exactly what umppened back in 2009. the h1-n1 virusd from pigs h to humans in mexico and california. and then it quickly spread. within six weeks, it had spread to multiple countries. m

withths nearly everyna nation on earth had cases.it it was a true pandemic.h1 h1-n1 proved incrediblyco contagious, but luckily, not that deadly.st still somewhere between 150,000n and 500,000 people died across the world, and more than 12,000 in the u.s.-- but those were still below the seasonal flu's usual toll.pu public health ofcials say the world dodged a bullet. e> when we realized in united states that we needed top up the ante in our preparednesse response for pandemic influenza made a decision to investhe heavilin preparing our nationfo for a pandemic influenza.>> >> brangham: a big part of dr. rick bright's job is to get the u.s. ready for the next pandemic.he he helps oversee vaccinere research and development for the fe;?#al government.va vaccines have for years been made using chicken eggs--th they're a superb vehicle for growing virus.

bright says 95% of all flucc vaccines globally are made this way. this facility is contracted byth ree vaccine maker sanofi pasteuo to churn out hundds of thousands of eggs every da if aa pandemic were to break out. but bright says, this process-- which can take six to ne months-- is still too long. >> 33 million people ie while we're waiting for vaccinen in that pandemic scenario.>> >> brangham: 33 million?>> >> so we have to count every day that passes from identification cc something novel to where weca can deliver that e not only in just days but also when lives lost.li >> brangham: to shorten thatwi rtindow, the government s a partnership with the pharma company seqirus to operate this plant in holly springs, northca carolina. here, they've stockpiled vaccines against some of the more troubling, novel strains that have emerged in the pastth just in cas re-emerge.th they're also creating new

vaccines using cells fr mammals, instead of eggs.br ight says this could sawe weeks, maybe months. h>> these they can actuale growing year-round if they need the surge very quickly to makemo more vaccine for a crisis orndpa exeven more for a pandemicre response.>> >> brangham: but almost everyone agrees: the shape-shiftingnf nature of theenza virus means all these efforts are still not enough.>> >> everything we think we know about influenza changes almost every day because of the wayis this virus grows, mutates andsp spreads.we we must look to the future.in invest in innovation. reduce those bottlenecks andke make sure everyone has the vaccine otherwise our planet cae be doomed.>> >> brangham: while that vaccine work is underway, surveillance teams across the country keep an

eye out, watching the virus, looking for the emergence of the next potential pandemic. for the pbs newshour, i'mwi william brangham. >> woodruff: torrow, william concludes the series by focusing on the hunt for a universal flu vaccine. >> woodruff: we continue our coverage now of some of the keyo issues already shaping the 2020 race f president. and one of them is an issue thae already resonated strongly innt the last presil campaign--th the burden of college student hsbt. in the early mof this race, that problem is a focus for even more candidates and suit's one of the central being discussed.li lisa desjardins helps break down some of the key dividing linesof of what the candidates would dor >> reporter: how ny of you allha have student loan debt? you all look kind of young. >> anybody in here hudentlo loan debt? >> how many of you are dealing>i

with student debt? >> desjardins: this has become n common sighhe campaign trail. in 2019, private and federalst student loan debt holders owed o collective $1.5 trillion. prree democratic candites for president would also raise theia hands-- each is currently paying themselves or their spouse. off student loan debts for themselves or theire.>> >> i was the first in my family to go to college, i have two kids under two, i'm paying off my student loans. >> this is kind of a personalis issue for us because chasten and i live withix figure student debt.de>> >> desjardins: 2020 candidates'd udeas divide in a few ways--ar primarily, some cutll college costs-- with differentfo forms of free tuition. others tackle the debt end with plans to erase or cut debt. massachutts senator elizabeth warren does both with one of the most detailed plans in the race she wants to make public colleges and universitiestu tuition-free for all students, and expand the pell grant system for lower-income students tove other college costs.bu fot warren's most striking proposal is to paup to$5 $50,000 in student loan debt per

person depending on a family'sco income. warren estimates her plan would cost an estimated $1.25 trillios over ten years would fund it with a new tax on the richest americans.er >> there are literally tens ofmi millions of americans who are being crushed by outstanding loan debt. >> desjardins: a few otherswo would also erase some studentde debt. o >> our plan will cancel a substantial amount of studentbt debt, and in some ways, probablo go further than senatorwa warren's.>> >> i would forgive a lot of that student loan debt in an argument for stimus. >> desjardins: a larger group of candidates tackle how much debta college students rack uin the first place. some of those want to makeit r-ition free for all students at public two- or far colleges across the country.'s it's an idea that vermont senator beie sanders pushed for in 2016.>> >> we should have free tuitionat public colleges and universities. that should be a right of all americans, regardless of the income of their families.>>

>> desjardins: but some of the candidates are worried aboutng benefiealthy families. >> no. i am not for free college for all. >> desjardins: former texas congressman beto o'rourke saysoc he wants a on lower-income communities.co >> i want to make sure we'reg also not paye full freight of wealthy americans at a time of historic wealth and income inequality.in >> desjardins: o'rourke and others are calling at theyll call "debt free" higheruc education. that would not make tuition free automatically but instead would help students who can't affordth their college costs to graduate without debt.se several senators co-sponsored a bill in 2018 to do this, makingu sure that after tuition, room,bo board, bos and other expenses are paid for-- they do not have to take out any loans.he on the more moderate end of the spectrum, many candidates arell calling for a refinancing ofex existing student loan debt at a lower ra. and president trump has alsoma made some changes to student loan policy while in office.>> >> student loan debt.i' i'm going to work to fix it.be

because it's outrageous what'sha pening. >> desjardins: he called for a capn student loans, in thepe hopes that this would force colleges to reduce their costs.t "time" just to fill out the larger picture a bitl more,re here n what the latestbers show. the average debt for a college student is more than $29,000. for black students it's evenhi higher, an average debt of $34,000. icat's higher than for4, any otr racial ear et group. we are joined by an education reporter. what is. the problem exactly inm terms of paying for higher education right now? >> well, the problem is.mu multilayer i. mean, nobody expwhected when we created this federal student aid syst that it would be skewed so heavily towards debtan and that tuiti would continue to rise. but really, as long as highered edation remains, the ultimate ticket for a middle class, it'so going to be very hard for families to opt out of it.

and public colleges andun universities as well as private colleges do continue to raise tuition so this is the bindwe we're in right now.>> >> this is obvious a high-ranking issue,-r especially for democrats, just after health care. of what'seqeqsue itable. about, if you're helping students, differentst students shoulder debt inff different way h you c on that debate? >> absolutely. so fundamentally, right, people with higher education in this bo country ater off than people without it. so when you start talki about targeting federal money towardrg people who have higher education, immedtely, you're talking about possibly a more-advantaged group. now, some plans, like elizabethr warren's, have been trying to really target tat aid so that they're reaching the groups that you mentioned, like africanam americans or lower income people, and that the debt goes there. we really don't want to end upwi deth a system where, say, dentists or doctors, who have six figures of student loan deb but very high incomes end up

absorbing a hugehe amount offe federal debt relief. s one of the things i think is confusing for fo the terminology-- debt free, tuition free. can yu take us through how co look at those two ideas? >> sure. i think this is really important, especially when we talk about presidential candidates, because on the one han free public college, this is a topic or an idea that bernie sanderst the table in the 2016 election campaign, that catch is that we don't have a federal public college system. we have a state public collegety sy so any kind of federal proposal would be offering machg tonds and trying fund tuitions at public clnlz, universities, maybe community colleges. that wouldn't necessarily beeg something that states would agree to. so tuition f iding something-- is one thing. debt relief or debt forgivenes little bit different, and in talking about kind of justg funde money that students borrowy or forgivi thoseloans

that is something the federal government has the ability to do with the stroke of a pen. now, the argument becomes if yoi are fng loans, you're forgiving, perhaps, people whoou didn't, now-- borrowedmo more. man they didn't work their way as much thrgh college and people start to say, "i worked harder, and i didn't get my loa, and this person is getting more money back." so that's where these arguments ciewnd of star >> i'm curious what, do youin think? how fast and how far has the democratic fieldtiin plar moved on this whole idea of education funding, higher ed? >> it really is amiddle-class kitchen-table issue. it's not just a generational issue. you have retireese.in fa student debt. so i think with bernie sanders putting this on the tablein reay he 2016 election with his call for free college, you now have almost all of the candidates trying to put a stake in the ground and say, "yes, i instand for red the burden of debt," not just because, youkn know, it's for getting americans more educated but also because people need these loans forgiveness so they can start

businesses, so that they can buy homes, maybe start families, and really participe in the american life. it's really a broad recognition, i think, that studentoan debt has become an albatross around the nck of everyone's. >> i know you're following everyone's record on this, and we f appreciate it. >> thank you, so much, lisa. >> woodruff: the pipe organ haso long been called "the king of instruments", but because of its size and complexity, it has forf hundredears been associated with churches and catdrals. but one young organist is out to shatter that mold. special correspondent cat wisec ently went to an organ concert in los angeles to learno more. p itt of our ongoing series on arts and culture, "canvas."♪ ♪ >> reporter: he has been described as a rock star,

flamboyant, provocative, and a revolutionary. cameron carpenter is unlike any organist you have seen or heard. are you essentially trying to rewrite the rules of organ playing?>> >> well, no, because i'm not invted in the rules of orga playing. ♪ i' i've never really been an organ music fan. i've been a fan of, of the instrument-- of playing it. >> reporter: for fans of organc music who came to listen to bach's famous "toccata and fugua in 'd' minor" ecentinnc concert in los angeles and expected a traditional interpretation, they were likely disappointed.di

but for 38-year-old carpenter, bucking tradition is often the goal. >> i'm not sure that when i play that i'm necessarily playing inh the way the composer inteed and that has never really bothered me.♪ ♪ for me it's always been totally clear that the only place any aithority can possibly lies the individual listener. >> reporter: we caught up with carpenter as he was practicing for that night's performance on a stunning 6,000 pipe organ that also bucks tradition, designed in part by architect frank gehry, which looms over thest stage of the walt disney concert hall. >> when i play the organ i don't much think about critics, purists, other organists. i mostly think about people like my father who couldn't have td the difference between music byr leonard bernstein or johann sebastian bach. i try to play in a way which is

understandable. >> reporter: is it physically challenging to play this instrument? >> y the organ is a complicated instrument, which contains the entire spectrum of hearing from the threshold of audibility. like that to extreme, extremeow power, and everything in between, which is really much re important since thetr extremes aren't all thatfr frequently used. ♪ >> reporter: carpenter grew up near meadvil, pennsylvania. he was homeschooled, studied dance, and went on to attend the juilliard school in new york.el he tends tit strong reactions from fans and critics. some reviewers have praised hisr "sman talents," othersha have called his interpretations. "grotesque he became known for his glittery

wardrobe and punkish looks, and he has earned a eputation as a brash, bold, breaker of organ stereotypes. >> it's absolutely required that you promote erything that you're doing because to have a career as a classical musician you essentially have to beg for attention. >> reporter: but carpenter says he has recently matured. >> my personal style now is far more reserved than it used to be even a few years ago. >> reporter: really. why? >> because my expressi of howi i wanted to be seen changed. it changed after my father died. and it ao changed after my organ was completed. ♪ >> reporter: the organ he's talkinabout is a one of a kind instrument that was more than ten years in the making.th the international touring organ, was custom made by ml & ogletree in massachusetts, and cost $2 million to build. he's taken digital recordings of

notes and tones from more than 30 traditional pipe organs and incorporates them in his instrument. what inspired the international touring organ project? >> technology and my love of music. my wish to perform. >> reporter: hauled around in a large truck, the system consists of about 30 cases of gear, that take more than four hours to set up. carpenter explains that inda s competitive arena ofda commercial music playing, the touring organ is what allows him o pursue a career as a mician. >> it allows me to play in a great many places that i wouldn never work. and that one would never associate with organ playing or music of y kind. so in that sense it's absolutely

groundbreaking. >> reporter: beyond pulling the organ out of churches or concert haonls, carpenter says tradi of classical music as a whole hust be dispelled. >> just now inearly 21st century, classical music is of effort at expanding its audience.i is a field that is fraught with difficulty in terms of expectation, of tradition andd historicity thenticity. so eyebrows get raised when a classical performer suggestsat that in fact people come to hear performers. you don't buy a ticket to hearan an orgayou don't really buy a ticket toear js bach.bau you buy a ticket to hear the person playing js bach on the organ. reose are different things. >rter: love him or not, a review of the los angelesco

concert called carpenter he has a new album out and is currently on a worldwide tour. for the pbs newshour, i'm catwi wise in los angeles. ( applause >> woodruff: as we reported earlier in the program, a house subcommittee held hearings on legislation that would pay reparations for slavery. the purposef the hearing was to examine: "the legacy of the trans-atlantic slave trade, its hecontinuing impact on community and the path to restorative justice." sarah blake is a novelist who has been thinking a

reparations and why past attempts have failed. in her humble opinion, this time is different. af how long is now? this question, ti-ed high above my head on a blank wall near my apartment in berlin, greeted me daily, years ago. heonymous and existential, phrase captured the spirit of that city, but i've been inking about it more and more lately, trying to make sense of what fls like a historical moment here: a moment when thisi country appears to be acknowledging a thrghline between our past and our present in a way i've never seen. for starters, when is now in this country? i've spent the past eight years writing a multi-generational family vel that tries to understand why. as faulkner wrote, and presidenm ama reminded us, "the pa isn't dead. it isn't even past." and i began to see how family memory is made of half-truths that become false myth, which echoes how this country's memoro works as well, its history

passed down as an open secret, half-told. the myth: slavery is over. the past is past. the truth: its consequences live on, ensuring that who we are ane where have always been twin faces in our country's mirror. a mirror african americans have held up to the country for years. but a mirrowhich the collective white imagination has avoided, until now. stories of voter suppression in georgia, and in north carolina. law enforcement unable tore restrain white supremacy in charlottesville. blackface in yearbooks. birthright citizenship on thet table. a if y looking for social justice, the system is broken. or maybe, broken open for all, at last, to see. the serious, extensive discussion of reparations-- from college campuses, to presidential candidates-- and the national reckoning with ouru public memorials, suggests the ngite imagination is begin to see beyond the veil we hungtw

between then andow. seeing that our collective racial past is, and alws has been, present in our institutions. it never stopped.ha no matterwe told ourselves. how long,ndeed, is now. if we agree that policy change is only possible when collecte imaginations shift, then it is fitting that the talk of reparations now recalls the enormous shift asked of the country's imaginati during reconstruction. and the questions asked 150 years ago: who are we and who do we want to be as a country, arew meestions we are asking again. but what if this we look at the truth in the mirror, and break now from then, makinaue truer now-- a newer now-- one that doesn't "forget" st, wet confronts, acknowledges, re- constructs and soan hope, repairs.

>> woodruff: the novels sara blake.he and that's the newshour forto tonight. i'm judy woodruff.in join us online and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and see you soon. >> major funding for the pbsee newshour has bprovided by:g >> ordering takeout. >> finding the west route.ta >> talki> for hours. anning for showers. >> you can do the things you like to do with a wireless plan designed for you. with talk, text and data. consumer cellular. learn more at consumercellular.tvor elco a language app that teaches real-life conversations in a new ncnguage, like spanish, f german, italian, and more. l.tien >> financial services firm raymond james.vi >> and with the ongoing support and individuals.s:ons:

>> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by ctributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioni n sponsored by shour productions, llcsp captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.orgd >> you're watching pbs.

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