captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc >> brangham: good evening, i'm william brangham. judy woodruff is away. on the newshour tonight, expanding detention-- the white house moves to rewrite the rules on immigration, throwing out the caps on how long migrantli fa can be held in custody. plus... >> i am the chosen one.ha >> bra ...another day, another freewheeling talk with reporters. our yamiche alcindor was there and breaks down what was on the president's mind then, icy relations. president trump abrupt cancels his upcoming visit to denmark, nlter the scandinavian nation declares that grd is not for sale. and, nature trails versus oil drills-- the shifting political landscape of the western wilderness. >> there are these large landscapes that are still so

intact. it's a rare thing, and i feel like we should rally behind that and understand what a area we live in. >> brangham: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> babbel. language program that teaches real-life conversations in a new language, like spanish, french, german, italian, and more. babbel's 10-15 minute s are available as an app, or online. more information on babbel.com. ♪ ♪ >> supporting social entrepreneurs and their solutions to the world's most pressing problems-- sklfoundation.org.

>> the lemelson foundation. committed to improving lives through invention, in the u.s. and developing countries. on the web at lemelson.org. >> supported by the john d. and catherine t. macarthur foundation. committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more information at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions: >> this prporam was made ible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> brangham: president trump held court on the white house south lawn for more than half an hour, answering questions on a wide-range of topics: gun laws, russia, e economy, even rthright citizenship.

there was a lot on the president's mind today. our white house correspondent yamiche alcindor was and joins me now. >> hi. >> brangham: so the president covered so many different topics today. i'm so glad you were there. one of the issues i want the otalk about is the issu guns. lir just over two weeks now from el paso to date fs were hurt, the president seems to have vacillated on what he wants to done background checks. he talked about that, listen to what he had to say. >> i have an appetite for background checks. we're working withublicans. we're working with republicans. we already have very strong backgrend checks, but there a loopholes in the background checks. that's what i spoke to the n.r.a. about yesterday. they want to get rid of the loopholes as well as i do.ti at the sam, i don't want to take away people's second amendment rights. >> brangham: we know the president has also been talking to thehead ofe national rifle association. do you have a better sense of what the president is willi to do about guns? >> the president is clearly in

lock step with the n..a. on this issue when it comes to background checks and gun legislation overall. he's been talking frequently to wayne law pieerre, the had of the n.r.a. i put the president to the question: are you also talking to mass shooting victims. he wouldn't answer directly. he would only say, i visited them in the hospitals. he said the head of the n.r.a. wants to soowlose loopholes in the background check system. and that's completely not what the n.r.a. says. on its own website it says they op ose extending any so background checks. they take issue with the idea that there are any sort of gun loopholes in the system right now. now critics would say that's completely not true. in fact, they would say online sales and at gun shows person-to-person private gun sales, you don't need background checks for that. so that's why a lot of people want universal background checks, but the president so fr is not supporting that issue some we'ere going to have to s where the president goes to this, but it's clear he's leaning toward whatever the

n.r.a. wants to support. >> brangham: for the day in a row, the question seemed to question theoyalty of jewish americans who support democrats. let's listen to what he said hout that. >> don't want to fund israel. they want to take away foreign aid to israel. they wt to do a lot of bad things to israel. in my opinion, you vote for a democrat, you're being very disloyal to jewish people and you're being very disloyal to israel. and only weak people would say anything other than that. >> brangham: how did the president respond to the criticism that when you start talking about loyalty in relation tolú that relies on some prey anti-semitic ideas? >> the president completely doubled down on his attacks on american jews and did not back away from the idea that if theyo for democrats that they are disloyal and they are not using good knowledge in doing some it's important to note just how many american jews support democrats. about ca% of amejews supported democrats in the midterms and overwhelmgly

erican jews support democrats overall. it's important to also note that the presidt when he was asked about whether or not some of his words might be anti-semitic, hea he hadn't heard that criticism, but it's important to also look at the ups that are calling the president out, the anti-defamation league criticized him for using those words. people are saying it's anti-semitic to say you ar disloyal. also j street, a liberal advocacy group that's involved in the israeli-palestinian conflict called the president's words dangerous and shameful. while the president is not backing down, jewish leaders and civil rights groups are saying the president should not be using this language. >> you have been watching thi esident for a long time. today it seemed like he really did have a lot of anger and fu and fire that he was shooting a to the democrats. do you have a sense of what's driving that? >> the predent is really i think making the case for his 2020 ection. he is ying to posmit self as the only person who can fix the

country's ills and the democrato have led thetry astray. you see that when he talked about denmad he canceled his trip. maybe denmark could have called out the cotuntry wih president obama, but with me as president, that's not going to happen.h sameg on immigration. he said falsely president obamae sepaimmigrant children. that's not true, but he said democrats are letting openbo ers and letting all sorts of immigrants in. that's also not true. but it comes down the president's strategy when it comes to reelection. he has to say democrats are trying to destroy your way of life in order to what he thinks is bring out the turnout in his voters. >> brangham: yamiche, we'll talk about those immigration issuer and denmark latn the show. thanks. >> thanks. >> brangham: in the day's other news, before president trump sps.e, china called for the to meet it halfway on a trade deal. a foreign ministry spokesman in

beijing said the tariff war is hurting both countries. he said the u.s. should follow china's example in approaching trade talks. >> ( translated ): china has a good reputation for abiding by international treaties. the ited states, in contrast often breaks promises, overthrows consensus and violates rules. a country that habitually goes back on its word, breaks its promises and withdraws from lltreaties has no right ato talk about fulfilling commitments with china. >> brangham: the two countries are scheduled to hold their next rounof trade talks in september. protesters in hong kong staged d sit-in at the subway station where pro-democracy supporters were attacked last month.po ce with riot shields faced off with the crowd at then stattrance. protesters in turn, sprayed fire extinguishers to slow their approach. n o more american servicemembers have been killedghanistan. nato announced the deaths today, but gave no details. and the death toll from saturday's suicide bombing in kabul rose to 80, as more

victims died of their wounds. the islamic state group has claimeresponsibility. wildfires kept burning today ntacross brazil, and presi jair bolsonaro suggested it's the work of non-profit groups that oppose his amazon development policy. he gave no evidence to support the claim. more than 74,000 fires havera ged brazil this year, up 80% r-om last year. smoke has caused nackout conditions in sao paulo and elsewhere. in australia, roman catholic crdinal george pell will stay behind bars, afterrt denied his appeal. last march, the former vatican finance minister was sentenced to six years in jail for sexually abusing two choir boys in the 1990's. today, an appeals court in melbourne ruled 2 to 1 to uphold the convictions, based on testimony by one of the victims. >> justice maxwell and i accepted the prosecution's submission, that the complaina was a very compelling witness

was clearly not a liar, was not a fantasist and was a witness of euth. he did not seek ellish his evidence, or tailor it in a manner favorable to theio prosec >> brangham: pell is the highest ranking catholic world-wide toy be found gui sexually abusing children. co could still appeal to australia's highest. backn this country, presiden trump ordered fast action to cut through red tape and wipe out federal student loan debt for some 25,000 disabled american veterans. he signed the order at the "am-n vets" na convention in louisville, kentucky. he said veterans won't taxed on the forgiven debt. the action affects araction of one percent of overall student loan debt in the u.s., which exceeds $1.5 trillion. new numbers on the nation's s fiscal outlo federal deficits are surging. the congressional budget office arojected today the red ink will top $1 trillion a starting next year. and, deficits over the next

decade will be more than $800 billion higher than expected. it cited the recent budget deal that lifted the debt lim and eliminated planned spending cuts.on wall street today, stocks jumped after major retailers reported strong earnings. the dow jones industrial average gained 240 points to close at 26,202. the nasdaq rose 71 points, and the s&p 500 added nearly 24. still to come on the newshour: how will the white house's new immigration rules impact families seeking asylum? icy relations between president trump and denmark after the scandinavian nation refuses to ist greenland up for sale. breaking down thes facing the native american community, and much more. >> brangham: in his effort to crack down oimmigration along

the southern border, the president has repeatedly tried to change how the gornment detains migrants. today his administration went further than it has be announcing big changes to the regulations that have been in place for decades. the president's team says the overhaul was not only overdue and legally required, but that it will lead to more humane conditions. migrant advocates say it'll do the opposite. today's move effectively paves the way for the indefinite detention of migrant children and their families, until their immigratn cases are decided. acting homeland security secretary kevin mcaleenan announced the change. >> at the heart of thirule are two core principles: that families should remain together during immigration proceedings and that conditions for care of children must be appropriate. >> brangham: the new regulation would end the current standard, the so-called flores agreement. since 1997, that federal court settlement required the government to hold children in the least restrictive setting

possible, establish welfare standards, and release them wiin about 20 days. as a result, migrant families were often released into the u.s. while their asylum requests worked their way through the court system. >> the purpose of holding individuals in administrative custodng immigration proceedings is to get an immigration result as expeditiously as possi there is no intent to hold families for a long period of time. in fact we have the prior experience that shows we were able to average der 50 days. that is the intent for a fair but expeditious immigrprion eeding. >> brangham: mcaleenan said children will also be better otected under the new regulation. >> no child should be a pawn in a scheme to manipulate our immigration system which is why ite new rule eliminates the incentive to exphildren as a free ticket or as one gentleman from guatemala tol me, 'a passport for migration to the united states.'" >> brangham: president trump today echoed his support for th rule change. >> president obama and others brought e families apart but i'm the one that kept the families together.

with what we're ing now, we'll do even more of that but make it'll make it almost iossible for people to come into our country illegally. >> brangham: while president obama did prosecute some migrant adults, neither he nor his edecessor enacted mass separations of families. in recent months, border officials have been overwhelmed by the massive influx of families and children fleeing violence and poverty in central america. u.s. customs and border protection estimates more than 432,000 family units were taken intoustody from october through july alone. most were released in the u.s. that a 456% increase over th same period last year. mcaleenan id some migrants will now go to family residential centers that have higher standards than current ikercrowded border facilities. >> they are campussettings with appropriate medical, educational, recreational, diningand private housing

facilities. for example, the first family residential center in berks, pa has suiteshere each family is housed separately. >> brangham: ice currently has lree such family resident centers, but they're already nearing full capacity. the justice department, in its announcement, said the flores agreement was originally only supposed to remain in place for fiveears. in 2001 the parties agreed to terminate the policy after a final rulemakingbut no previous administration issued a final rule until now. house speaker nancy pelosi blasted the change: he administration is seeking to ddify child abuse, plain simple." meanwhile, the congressional spanic caucus also denounced the move, saying, "they're punishing vulnerable families as if they are criminals, when they're asylum seekers fleeing violce, gangs, rape, and murder." the new regulation will bepu ished in the federal register friday and go into effect 60 days later. legal challenges are expected within days.

let's explain in greater detail what the flores agreement does and how these changes could play out. we get the perspective of a lel scholar who has visite many of the current detention centers. warren bford is the director of the clinical law program at willamette university college of law in salem, oregon. she was part of the team that visited one center iclint, texas this summer and strongly criticized the conditions shees wid. warren binford, welcome back to the newshour. i wonder i me your reaction to what the administration is proposing today. >> unfortunately, william, i'm quite horrified in hearing what the administration is proposing indefinite detention of children is something that we saw in in e apartheid south africa, it's something we saw in nazi germany. it's not something we would ever expect to see in 21st century america. >> brangham: those are pretty rsh comparisons to mae. if you listen to secretary mcaleenan today, he said thwise be better conditions. children will be housed with their parents.

he seems to paint a picture that is much better than the conditions that you were here on >>e newshour this summer worried about. t's not a question of conditions at this point, because there is no question that we need to makeure that when the children are in government custody that they need to be well cared for. the issue is that chilten do belong in government custody to begin with. children are not supposed to be detained. this is one of the fundamental values of floor rest is that childrenre supposed to be released and place with their family in the united states as expeditiously as possible. what the administration is trying to do is to throw out the very heart of flores, which is children are not supposed to be detained. >> brangham: therg administrationues that flores is outdated, they. havee gal authority to do, this other administrations did not, and if they keep to the spirit of flores, that they have the authority to do that. you don't think that's true? >> well, i think the hministration is telling truth in that flores was never

intended to be permanent, that it was the responsibility of the administration and it's also been the responsibili of congress to establish standards for the care of children consistent with flores. my criticism i t thathe regulations that have been proposed, they're no resemblance, not only to the third of flores, which they olagrantly violate, but also to the fundamental tections there, as well. so basically what this is is a gutting of flores and sing that despite the legal holdings over the last 30 years in tshi case as well as the research that's been done with regard to child welfare and child health that, tu know, children are n supposed to be detained indefinitely. and that's basically what this administration is is trying to do. >> brangham: what are the specifics? you said thi wld violate flores. we still don'tnow what the final rules are. we won't know that until friday. how ist they're violating flores?

>> well, in several wails. the most obvious issahe pro that they detain children at all. children are not supposed to be detaised. urts children, and we need to care for these children in a way that places them in the least restrictive environment wossible. that's what the rovides and that is, you know, with families and normal homes.t so that's fiy that this violates the children's rights. the second way that thisld violates the cn's rights is that it not only is proposing that children be deandandtainedt they be detained in unlicensed facilities. the government has no facilities licensed to care for families, so they're talking about the federal government regulate and monitor itself.ad we've alseen what happens when there is no one monitoringn the facilitie regular basis. i've seen that with my own eyes and it's ita horrendous uation. a third way is that they're talking about havg these children have to put together their court cases within a matter of days or week and the fact is that we know that these children in order to put together their asylum cases,

they're going to need the assistance of attorneys. they're going to have the gather their evidenceak we need the sure these children's due process rights are protected. mso we're seeingltiple violations of these children's rights. >> brangham: one ofhe arguments that the administration makes is that under the curnt agreement that people who wanted to migrate illegally to the united states knew that this system existed, that they couldn't be kept for very long in a center in the u.s., and that it was in esunderstand a magnet that it was drawing people to th u.s. because of this system that offeredasically catch and release as the president likes to put it. is there any evidence that that's true, that this is a magnet? >> i have nev seen any evidence of that. ason mostow is the r of these children are coming to the united states is they're being threatened with mur'rder, thbeing threatened with sexual assault, sexual violencex they'reriencing domestic violence. we are seeing ineffective

governments or a gang organizations, criminal organizations that are taking cher theildren's streets where they live, the schools they attend, and coming to their very homes d threatening their lives. these children are simply trying to survive. is is not an opportunistic migration that we're seeing but rather an attempt by these children to survive what are very violent threats at home. >> brangham: another argument the administration makes is that the system we have now helps fuel human trafficking coming across our border is. there evidence fr that? >> new york i'm not seeing any ed of that at all.of as a matteact, every child that i interviewed in the border patrol facilities june came over with a family member and there was ony one child whom i interviewed who it appeared had come oer with a coyote. when we treat those illegally, those are not considered to be human trafficking. ving an adult with you does not make that person a trafficker. i think that really detracts

from the very real issue of human trafficki the administration to so disingenuously try to present these children as bei trafficked when, in fact, their parents and family members are trying to simply get them to safe homes in the united states. and you ve to remember that 40% of these children approximately have a legal right to be here in the united states. so to pretend these children are being trafficked is real to do these children a disservice. >> brangham: warren binford, thank you very much for being here. >> thank you, william. >> brangham: in the age of trump, tweets often announce official decisions. and last night it happened again, when the president declared he would not travel to denmark in 10 days. the reason: danish leadershipfu d to discuss selling greenland for greenbacks. and thus, the massive ice- covered isaund and danish nomous territory in the

north atlantic, marked another frigid mom with an ally.ations special correspondenolm brabant reportfrom copenhagen. >> reporter: the meticulous traditions of the danish kingdom were trotting on as usual today as news spread of the white house snub. horses frothe royal stables would have been used during donald trump's trip had he maintained his pn. a former danish prime minister claims the americansad pushed for a formal state visit, with all its ceremony and grandeur. the american ambassador even promoted the visit on twitter hours before mr. trump tweeted that sine greenland wasn't for the dealing, he wouldn't be coming. president trump's rebuff is seen here as being doubly offensive, especially to the danish queen margrethe. at her main copenhagen residence, a spokeswoman would only say they were surprised. according to danish royal experts, that's palace speak fon livid. the danish prime minister mette ederiksen delivered what she

thought was a restrained response. >> i have been looking forwarded to visit. our preparations were well der way. a discussion has however been about a potential sale of green hasn't. this has clearly been rejected. this does not change the character of our good relations. >> reporter: but her comments over the >> reporter: but h t comments ov weekend upset the president. >> denmark, i look forward to going, but i thought that the prime minister's sta that it was absurd, that it was an absurd idea was nasty. i thought it waan inappropriate statement. all she had to do was say no we wouldn't be interested, but we can't treat the united states of america e way they treated us under president obama. i thought it was a very t nice

way of saying something. >> reporter: in response the danish prime minister says she won't engage in a verbal war. but rufus gifford, the former u.s. ambassadoto denmark, has gone on the offensive. >> it's embarrassing, it absolutely is, but i think the bigger shame here is as i getre tion from danes this morning, there's not the level of outrage i wish there was that this is met with a collectivef eye rollrts, that this is just donald trump being donald trump. >> reporter: that eye-rolling ir evident on thets of copenhagen >> i heard it was because he couldn't buy gre hland. so, ife's that stupid, i think it's good that he's not coming. >> reporter: jon burgwald is an expert on the arctic region, and advises one of the left leaning parties in the danh parliament. >> what he obviously doesn't understand is that greenland is a sovereign country. with its own government, its own parliament, it's own judicial system. but at the same time it shows

that he has no understanding tiatsoever of to be honest, international po and diplomacy and just how other >> reporter: the danes and greenlanders may believe thatng buhe world's largest island is absurd. but the controversy has had the impact of concentrating minds at the very highest level. the former nato secretary general anders fogh rasmsen tweeted today that the ¡arctic's security and environmental challenges are too important to be considered alongside hopeless discussions like the sale of greenland.' on twitter mr. trump again lit rk about its defense spending as part of nato and lambasted other alliance members. >> i think trump is gging a big hole for the u.s. with europe, by far most anti european and anti-nato leader that we have had.te >> rep nicholas burns was a career u.s. diplomat and ssador to nato during th obama administration. he's now at harvard university. >> i think this is the worst treatment of an american ally by an american president in our

lifetime. i can't think of anything remotely like this. denmark contributed over 10,0000 soldiers over 17 years in afghistan, they've lost ldiers there they have been with us in every mor conflict for the past 100 years. >> reporter: many greenlanders have been offended bpresident trump, but aaja chemnitz larsen, one of two lawmakers representing the territory in the danish parliament, is taking a more positive view. >> i think it would be quite intesting to get him to greenland instead because it shows a cleainterest in greenland if you look at the process so i think in many ways it puts greeand in a good position even though it's been >> reporter: so why is greenland suddenly demanding everyone's attention? the short answer is climate change. this is ilulissat on greenland's west coast opposite canada which spawns icebergs of the size that sank the titanic. >> where we are right now we see the stranded icebergs. they are coming from the main

jakobsound glacier up the fjord, sixty kilometres inland.th e are the biggest icebergs that get stranded here. >> reporter: professor rene rsberg works with nasa and the european space agency to monitor climate change. >> the greenland ice sheas mass loss heen accelerating and it has been accelerating for the last 20 years. you can see that from space, you can see that from thee measurements. there's a lot of untapped potential in the minerals domain and when the ice sheet retreats the edges go sort of closer to the center of the ice and you do expose n >> reporter: this mining project in southern greenland is ant source of pol riches. it's backed heavily by chinese investors who want to access rare earth metals used in mobile phone and other advanced technologies. the area also has large anium deposits. the company behind the project predicts a possible annual inco of $700 million. there's concern in the u.s. and denmark that if china gets a commercial foothold in greenland, it will mutate into governmental interference in the

arctic. recently, china was in the running to build three new airports in greenland, but was blocked when, at america's insistence, denmark stepped in with the necessary finance. the united states operates the thule air base in greenland which provides early missilewa ing, space surveillance and control. having chinese neighbors would have been most unwelcome. the melting ice cap is opening up new shipping routes across the top of the world up which means shorter voyages for vessels carrying chinese goods. russia is also fiercely competitive in the arctic. while greenland is not for sale. it is open for business to america, despite, not e of president trump. >> we would like to have collaboration with the u.s. both when we talk about defense, but especially when we talk about investment. >> reporter: but greicland is a dit landscape with a harsh climate and to realize its potential treasures will require

time and patience, qualities not normally associated with the trump white house. for the pbs newshour, i'm malcolm brabant. >> brangham: this week, native american votnts got more atn from candidates than they have in years. lisa desjardins has more on the presidenal forum which drew those candidates and the issues native voters are icing. >> desjardins: first a reminder about this country's native population. as many know, it is most concentrated in western areas, but is present in every part of the country, including large cities. less well known-- the fact that indian reservations and alaska native villages make up more than 100 million acres across the country. on its own, that would be the fourth-largest state. at the same time, native americans also fe the highest poverty rate in this country, more than 20%.

so there was much to discuss when nine democrats vying to be president spoke at this week's forum on native american issues in sioux city iowa from the candidates and ring native iserican leaders. >> the epidemic ofng and murdered indigenous women has been a silent crisis for far too long. t we need to honor our tr and treaty obligations to the native tribes. >> in every single classroom in america we need to be teaching about native history and doing >> desjardins: i'm joined now by mark trahant. he moderated theresidential forum and is the editor of "indian country today," a newspaper that is now owned by thnational congress of american indians. mark, you were the emcee. from where you sat, what stood out at this forum? >> i think the main takeaway is that there are so many sues that just don't get into the public discourse that reallygh to. these are stories that would benefit all americans to be abln to underand appreciate not just the history but the context

of today, one example would be one of the issues that all of the candidates address was that of honors andedals given to those massacred at wounded knee. every candidate would like those medals rev oked. but that's not a story out there in the public discourse. >> desjardins: i know there is legislation in congress abthout . i'm wondering, what issues do you think matter most to natives americans right now? >> the very first one that camey up evime is treaty rights. under the constitution, treaties are the supre law of e land, yet often those treaties are not funded. they are not executed the way the tribes would like to see it. one part, for example, would be nearly every treaty talbksout healthcare, and yet the indian health service and tystem is come pollutely underfunded.>> esjardins: this leaves large gaps every yer.

so 40% to 50% of natives depend on that system. other issue is violence. the rates of violence for native people is much higher than the re of america, especially indigenous women. part of that issue is the bureaucracy, the fact that federal prosecutors oversee most majori crmes in indian country, yet they don't really spend tid in inian country. how do you think or what proposals arout there to try to stench that incredibly high violence rate. >> one candidate elizabeth warren came straight out and said the oliphant dec which was a supreme court decision that said tribes could not prosecutnon-indians should be reversed legislatively. and that would give tribes the right to prosecu for all crimes on reservations. in fact, anotherndidate said that it's the same when you are traveling roughout europe. each government has jurisdiction. he said it should be the same for tribal governments. so that would be a very simple l fix t tribes do that.

>> desjardins: something else to ask you about is the courts. how important are federal corts in terms of right and regulations affecting indiantr co >> the federal court system has an enormous amount of influence in indian coy.un so many of the laws are federal laws. out of 3,600ticle three judge, there is only one native american district court jue in arizona, and one out of 3,600 seems a litle bit absurd i a country like this. >> desjardins: i'm curious, tell me abut how many candidates have shown up in the past, and what bright spots do you see for our indigenous population politically? >> there has only been one other presidential forum like this 12 years ago. i was th moderator of that one, as well. that one only had threees candidgovernor bill richardson, representative dennis kucinich, and former

snort mike ravis. ne is elevated substantially with major candidates being involved. i think what's imp about that is it brings life to these issues that just don't get the attention normally in th media. one of the funny things about the chawinge withl the election last time of deb holland and cherice davis is congress now has a better record media in terms of representation by about double.' >> desjardins:still not proportional, right? there are now four nativeic ams in congress? >> proportional would be at least seven in the house and two he senate, so there remains a long way to go. there was a really interesting development this week on this, and this goes back to the idea of treaty rights. several treaties have a delegate congress as part of the provision, and the cherokee nation has appointed a delegate and says they would like the send a delegate to the congress. >> desjardins: i'm going to be watching that, as will we all.

mark trahant from indian country today. thanyou so much for joining us. >> thank you, lisa. >> brangham: a recent studybl hed in the journal "science" found that the trump administration is responsible for the largest reduction of federally protected land in u.s. history. he's moved to shrink national monuments such as bears ears and ingrand-staircase escalant utah. jeffrey brown has the story of a fight over land in central montana about the tension between conservation and development, and what it could mean for the future of all of america's public lands. it's part of our regular segment on the "leading edge" of science. >> brown: it's a landscape of rugged mountains, vast grslands and tree-covered slopes. in this part of central montana, tere's hardly a human in sight. wildlife can be haspot, too, but the area is home to

populations of elk and sage grouse, as well as migratory birds. it's a paradise for hikers and hunters, like rob and katy beattie ofewistown, montana. >> we usually like to go out into some of these areas and take big, long wal. with the do we look specifically for these big tracts of land that don't have roads in ¡em a that are harder access for other people. and then we go way back into them, hoping to find a deer that maybe hasn't seen a person in its lifetime. >> brown: this is public land-- just a fraction of the 245 million acres in the united stat administered by the bureau of land management, or b.l.m. now, though, a familiar question hangs above this terrain: how best to use and protect it? land fights in the west over energy production and conservation have gone on forever, of course. but this one, like so much else, is now caught up in today's political divides. in 2014, under president obama,

the b.l.m. identified some 200,000 acres in central montana as having "wilderness characteristics." but in may, more than two years after president trump tookth officeagency released a draft of its new "preferred plan" foranaging that land, and none was set aside for protection. instead, the plan would open more than a million acres to oil and it calls for eliminating "eight existing so-calledareas of critical environmental concern." these spaces require special protection for wildlife, history, culture or scenery. conservationists have cried foul, saying guidance from career professionals was ignored. aubrey bertram is field director for the montana wilderness association. she says the b.l.m.'s longstanding mission to allow¡ multiple use' of public land-- a range of activities commercial

and recreational is under threat. >> we're seeing a prioritization of oil and gas over all other uses and that is not multiple use. when we when we put these extractive industries on the landscape that that impact doesn't go away, that stays on the landscape for a really, really, really long time. it is about the integrity of the land. and it's also really about the integrity of the public process. >> brown: what changed? al nash is the spokesperson for the bureau's montana-dakotas state office. >> our documents need to reflect those current policies and this draft document does. >> brown: so this is-- elections do matter, right? um i've worked under a number of administrations, ar of interior secretaries. each of those brings its own emphasis and perspective and you do see change from year to year or four years to four it is part of our american litical landscape. >> brown: meanwhile, the new plan has won praise froman mos oil and gas industries.

>> we agree with everybody else. this is public land an should be open to the public. but we are a part of that public. >> brown: alan olson i executive director of the montana petroleum association. he said the b.l.m. is now leveli a playing field that was tipped too far in favor of conservation under president obama. >> we've got land that's preserved. we've got it. why do we need to keep dying the death of a thousand cuts?: >> brou're saying you don't think we need more protection of lot of wilderness areas. the other side says we don't need more energy production. >> every tesla that's manufactured is hauled on the back of a diesel truck or behind a diesel locomotive. if they're riding bicycles, those tires come from oil. if we didn't have the petroleum industry, farmers would be farming behi a team of mules and not sitting in a tractor. >> brown: even so, b.l.m.'s own assessment of this land

indicates it has little or noia potefor more oil and gas development, at least for the time being. one wonders, why bother opening it up thenat kind of production? >> it is part of our mandate to look at those opportunities and make them available. but ultimately in our analysis available, it's extraordinarily unlikely that there would be leasing or any significant development. >> brown: and that's looking at changing technology because this going to last for sever decades? >> it's based on our best utformation and our best analysis looking0 years. >> brown: while the two sides grapple over this part of central montana, there's a broader battle playing out over thfuture of all public lan in the u.s. last month, the b.l.m. a mounced plans e its headquarters and most of its staff from washingtono grand junction, colorado. the department of inteor said the location is "closer to the western lands the agency is

tasked to care for. this move will make the bureau of land management stronger, more responsive, better informed, more accountable and more in touch with the people who matter." but mike penfold sees it differently. now retired, penfold directed the b.l.m. state offices both for montana-dakotas and alaska.w heas also an assistant director in the b.l.m.'s national office. >> it's ridiculous. it's purposeful. it's purposeful. it's directed to make this totally a political arm in washington d.c. and not representing what the, what the people feel out inrohe field. >>: you're afraid they're moving the people who actually know something out of washington. >> exactly. >>,rown: even more concerni penfold says, is the recent appointment of william perry pendley as acting b.l.m. director pendley is a conservative lawyer who's advocateicfor selling ands. in 2016, he wrote in the national review, "the founding

fathers intended all lands owned by the federal government to beo ." he also said in a tweet this year: "fracking is an energy, economic, and environmental miracle!" that's like putting the arsonist in charge of the fire department. and i'm a, i'm a multiple use guy. i probably made more timber sales than most guys. i sold more oil and gas than most guys. i've leased more coal an most guys in my career. i'm not a lock everything up kind of a guy. >> brown: you're just afraid it's out of balance. >> it's out of balance. >> bro: pendley was unavailable for an on-camera interview, but an interior department spokesperson said in a statement: "the department adamantly opposes the wholesale sale or transfer of public lands, which is also perry's position as he exercises the authority of the b.l.m.di ctor. back in lewistown, however, the betties remain concerned ab the future of the public lands they frequent. it's so large, so big, the land. isn't there room for-- isn't the

argument that there's room for everything? >> i think that that's why it's so unique and why we love it, is because there are these large landscapes that are still so tact. and it's, it's a rare thing. and i feel like we should kind of rally behind that and understand what a unique area we live in. >> brown: the buau is expected to release its final plan early next year. for the pbs newshour, i'm jeffrey brown in central montana. >> brangham: and we'll be back shortly with a program to count but first, take a moment to hear from your local pbs station. >> brangham: for those stations staying with us, salt, acid, fat, heat-- chef samin nosrat tells steve goldbloom about that moment when she discovered

the key ingredients to a good meal and life. t >> tell me abos series of serendipitous events that led you to chez panisse. >> i was 19 years old. i had never been to a restaurant like that before.i member just feeling like every need was met befe i even realized i had it. the dessert was a chocolate souffle, and when the server brought it, she asked if i had ever had souffle before, and i said no. and she said, "would you like me to show you how to eat it?" and i said, "yes." she said, "you have to poke a hole in pour this sauce in so that every bite has raspberry sauce." so i did that, and i took a bite. she asked how it was. i said, "oh, it's really good, but you know whaevwould make it better is a glass of cold milk." what i didn't know at the time was, first of all, it's super rude to tell somebod would make their dish better, and insecondly, that in fine d it's considered like only babies

drink milk after 11:00 a.m. so asking for milk sort of tipped my hand, as if they didn't already know that i knew nothing. so she sort of laughed, and shea brought lass of milk and she brought us each a glass of dessert wine to teach us the refined accompaniment. it felt like that was the beginning of my culina education. [piano music] >> welcome to "that moment when." i'm steve goldbloom. samin nosrat wiltell you she spent way too much of her childhood in the car with her rossing san diego to find the flavors of iran. she eventually found her way to berkeley and worked her way through college at chez paniss after talking legendary chef alice waters into giving her a job and a glass of milk. nosrat stars in the netflix series "salt fat acid heat," a travelog based on her "new york times" bestseller by the same name, a book that took more than a decade to create and received

a james beard prize. as y'll hear now, nosrat's point of view comes from a rare combination of ingredients. >> even though i often know thao the scarieworst thing i could possibly do is to say the uncomfortable, vulnerable thing i usually raight for it. so when i wanted milk, i asked for it. it ends up disarming the situation and diffusing it, and often it puts the other person at ease. it's like a wonderful tool that i love using. >> you've like weaponized this non-threatening too >> i think it has to do with being the child of immigrants, someone who really felt like i didn't fit in. i wrote a letter begging for a job just saying how moving this meal had been, and i brought it in. and they said, "oh, you need to give that to the floor manager." they brought me to the floor manager's office. i knocked on the door, and she opened the door and it was the souffle lady. and in retrospect, she was probably really like desperate, because she said, "you want to ow?"t tomo so i was hired on the spot, and i started the next day. and it was really the rst day

of, you know, the beginning of my career and my professional life. >> tell me the moment when you realized there were four basic elements common to all cooking. >> so i started cooking in this incredible, elite, world-class c kitchen wiks who were among the best in the world. they never use recipes. they just use their senses, and they taste it and they paid attention to what was happening. as probably a year and a half into my cooking that i had a moment where i realized, oh, salt, fat, acid, heat -- these ayur things, we pay attention to them every d and i went up to the chef, and i said, "i figuredt out -- salt, fat, acid, heat." and he looked at me and said, "yeah, duh, we all know that i thought, well, if you know that and it took me this long of benyg here and this isn't in of the books that i've read that you've told me to read andlf immerse myn, then it's my job. it's going to be my job and my work texplain this to everyone else.

>> describe for me in vivid detail the childhood kitchen that you grew in. >> i grew up in a ranch-style home in southern california san diego. there wasn't much fancy about anything, and sometimes now when i think about it, i'm like, how did my mom cook such beautiful food out of that dinky kitchen? there was an electric stove most of my childhood, which now as a pfessional cook i really disdain, and two electric top and bottom ovens that didn't work so well and not that much counter space. i think about that a lot still today, because i really believe it's not the tools or the stuff you have that determines what kind of food or how good your food can be. >> what did your mother'sme comm to keeping iran alive through food look like? so my parents came to california a few years before i was bornand i think they ren't sure if we'd ever return.y so form, cooking and

sharing our culture through our food was really hemost portant and most powerful tool of giving us a sense of our heritage. so she would drive across c southeifornia in search of the perfect flatbread or in seofch of just the right kin danish feta cheese. so i thought that was a normal way to shop, a normal y to seek flavor, and the highest compliment any ingredient or any dish could ever receive from anyone in my family was that it tasted like iran. and until i went to iran and until i grew up and understood sort of the immigrant mentality, i asdn't really get why that or important. when i get to cookeople who i care about, it's really one of the greatest pleasures of my life. i take so much pleasure in those little moments that hapn between people that are unexpected that happen when their guard is down.e the so many amazing things that happened at my table before, like people have found their dream jobs, people hav

found their dream person. it's not even about the fanciest food or even the most delicious food. it's about setting a tone of being cared for that i think lets you feel like anything can ppen.[p no music] >> brangham: you can find allth episodes of is series on facebook. watch "at that moment when show." >> brangham: every summer, a handful of interns areted from hundreds of applicants to camp in primitive conditions on a tiny, treeless island several miles off the maine coast. as susan sharon of pbs station "maine public" reports, their job is to monitor atlantic puffins and other vulnerable seabirds. >> reporter: it takes about 30 minutes by boat to reach eastern

egg rock. dr. stephen kress, founder of the national audubon society's project puffin, has lost track of the number of times he's made the trip. he's been doing it for 46 years. today he's dropping off supplief for the islande interns and research assistants who come from all over the world. sarah guitart is the crew lead. >> things are changing and we are here potentially documenting that change and trying to figure out what are the questions we need to be asking. and how do we get the information out of these seabirds. >> reporter: puffins are the reason this project started.ey e cute and colorful, but by the late 1800's they'd largely disappearedrom this region, killed off by hunters. more than a century later, puffins have returned with help from humans. >> so this little puffin chickwe is about five s old. i can tell that by the lacof down on it.

>> reporter: in 1973, with permission from the governme ctrspornghicks from a hlthy colony in newfoundland to eastern egg rock. the pioneering effort paid off and expanded. there are now 1300 puffins living on five maine islands. >> we've worked very hard to build this colony up. it's still a very small colony. it's still extremely vulnerablet to things an happen out here. >> reporter: those things can include disease and threats froi predator gulls, which the interns occasionally have to shoot. it's a last resort to protect puffin eggs and chicks fromn. being ea but there's nothing they can do about the rapidly warming gulf of maine. twice a day they take sea surface temperatures to look for changes that might affect the food chain. in some parts of the world puffins and other seabirds are

starving in the absence of small fish. >> it's like 62 degrees. so this morning it was 60 degrees so it got a little warmer, but it's not like abnormal. >> reporter: the job requires carefully observing birds' nesting and feeding habits. all the data is then recorded and taken back to the island's central station. >> so this is the egg rock hilton. >> reporter: between may and august the hilton is where the interns relax when they're aren't worki and where they cook their meals. >> we have a two-top stove that's heated by propane.a goce little kitchen counter. we got a cooler, which is great. >> reporter: out here, eltricity is limited and t is no running water. the birds' noise is constant, even at night. and so are their droppings. but michael rickershauser, a former auto mechanic from long

island, doesn't mind. >> it was sort of a dream come true to work out here. it's something special. it's more than seeing a picture or reading a book. >> reporter: something special that remains dependent on an adequate number of small fish and a few dedicated interns to keep predators at bay. for the pbs newshour, i'm susan sharon on eastern egg rock, off the coast of maine. .> brangham: and that's the newshour for tonig i'm william brangham. for alof us at the pbs wshour, thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> text night and day. >> catch it on replay. >> burning some fat. >> sring the latest viral ca >> you can do the things you like to do with a wireless plan designed for you. with talk, text and data. learn more atular. consumercellular.tv in babbel. a language learnapp that uses speech recognition technology and teaches real-life conversations.

>> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and individuals. >> this program was made possible by the corporatio public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ptioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

hello everyone and welcome to amanpour and company. this week we're dipping into the archives a a lookingt our favorite interviews from this year. >> taking the fight from medicare into their own hands. these congresswomen tell me why the time is now for universal health care in and "game of thrones" actress takes on a new challenge, the f fragile mental health of refugees.