ale announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in parby hillc, a texas government affairs consultancy, the alice kleberg reynolds foundation, re and carl stuart, and by entergy. [evan smit i'm evan smith. he's among the greatest playwrights of all time, the recipient of a lifetime achievement award at this year's tonys, the latest of many honors pretty much everyone out there bestowed upocahim in his extraordinarer. he's terrence mcnally. this is overheard. (applause) [smith] let's be honest. is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa? and you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. you know you saw a, roblem and, over timetook it on. let's start with the sizzle before we get to the steak. are you gonna to run for president?

i think i just got an f from you, actually. (audience laughs) this is overheard. (au (applause)hs) [smith] terrence mcnally, welcome. [terrence mcnally] thank you. [smith] congratulations on a lifetime achievement tony. [mcnallythank you, again. it's been quite a week. [smith] you've won tonys before so this is not new, tobut it has to be amazinonsider that they vu and your extraordinary career at this point worthy of that. you know what you did. they know what you did, but still, right? [mcnally] it's overwhelming. actually, i can't let it in, in a way, 'cause i think i'drwhelming. probably collapse and sob. t know what i'd do. but it's what you dream of as a kid. and to have it happen. [smith] yeah. [mcnally] and you justtry to s. one day at a time because after the tonys we came home. we're staying in a miserable sublet apartment 'cause we're being renovated in new york. ly] and you go right back

to this is a crappy apartment. [smith] right. [mcnally] you know, i juston a lifetime tony. [smith] and i'm here, this is terrible, right. [mcnally] and i'm in this dive of anpartment. [smith] well, i do sometimes wonder if it's the thalberg award at the oscars orathe lifetime achievemenhe tonys if the message is, okay you're done now. this is the end of your career, stop. [mcnally] you still go home. you know there's a tear in the screen and the mosquitoes are getting in. [smith] just like-- ly] your life really doesn't change. [smith] mere mortals actually, exactly so. so this has r en six decades of a carat they're acknowledging and that we all acknowledge. [mcnally] yeah. [smith] think about how much has changed. think about how much about the theater, we'll come to you in a second, but how much about the theater has changed. how do you assess it? what would you say the biggest difference n when you started writing plays nearly 60 years ago in earnest, not the stuff that you did as a kid, but the first plays that you had th? were produced and today what is the bi difference to you? [mcnally] the biggest difference is the price of the theater ticket. [smith] yeah. [mcnally] that the notion of what is a success has changed wildly.

all the great shows that i was raised on, 'south pacific," "rsys and dolls" ran 2 y3 years. now you ren 25 years or you're noly a, you know, everything's fan-- ti [smith] the25 years defi of success, has been revised, right, yeah. [mcnally] fewer theaters, the price of tickets is enormous and it's become more and more difficult the average person to attend the theater. [smith] 'cause i was going ask you if the consumer of a play, any kind of play in the theater, is different today, but byefinition the price probably excludes some people, does it not? [mcnally] yes, a a these plays that rong time are attracting a very different audience. if you're standing for my play, "frankie and johnny in the clair de lune" is bevived. right now, we're right next door to "phantom of the opera." very few people for "phantom" are speaking english. they're tourists from abroad. ] yeah. [mcnally] they know the plot from the video. [smith] right. [mcnally] so you can have plays running to-english speaking audience

so that they become sort of a spectacle on broadway which was not true before. [smith] so are the spectacle plays art as far as it goes? i mean, the decision to do some of that work [smith] is clearly to make a buck as opposed to necessarily produce something memorable. because we've seen it forever and forever, we kind of know it. it's sort of lostits elast. you know, it has lost its shape a little bit. [mcnally] well, that's because we've lost an audience for the more serious plays, made it harder for them. [smith] i guess, mr. mcnally, do you look down on that sort of a play, a "phantom of the opera?" [mcnally] no, i don't look down on it. wish i had one, frankly. [smith] yo yeah, exactly, yeah. [mcnally] 25th year. [smith] i'm greedy, why not, exactly.ake it up, right. [mcnally] i wish there were more theaters built in new york. it's very hard to get a theater in new york right now. [smith] it's a real estate problem. [mcnally] real estate, they have all the cards, eater owners, so that's a big change. the appetite for plays is not quite the new york, maybe produced 40 or 50 plays a year

when i came to new york. [smith] and today? when i came to new york, "my fair lady" had just opened, it was the fa'56. i went up to t office, i said, "one, please." he said, "are you crazy?" saying "one, please." he said, "if you really want to see it, "get in line over there atin10o "they're going to sell anding room places for a dollar." [smith [mcnally] so the first show i saw as an adult living in new york was "my fair lady" for one dollar. anding room now is probably $25. how many now? [mcnally] under 10. [smith] under 10, fewer than 10, really. ah. [smith] remarkable. [smith] under 10, fewer than 10, really. [mcnally] but there are no musicals running then like "phantom" or "lion king" in their 30th year. [smith] do you think the reason is that the consumer of a play today is so distracted

by so many inputs, so many things that you can choose from with the leisure hours that you have in your life? [mcnally] i think people are distracted. [smith] right, yeah. [mcnally] we have so much news. i'm guilty as anyone. i live on the news channels. so we're just, so much demands are made for my-- [smith] time. [mcnally] --attention, and we're living in very intng times. [smith] you're subdividing the same 24 hours or the same seven days amongst so many more things. [mcnally] theater's not, it's challenging to get people want to see our plays now. but it's so important. but fortunately, we have the not-for-profit theaters who came in and filled that void, places playwrights horizons. [smith] and are still doing really amazing work. [mcnally] yeah, and they're doing very well, but theymited eight week runs in much smaller theaters. theater is n going away. people say, "do you think broadway's dying?" some ways healthier than ever. theater is healthier than ever. [smight. [mcnally] but it's just different. [smith] the experience is different. you mentioned the revival.

so "frankie and johnny" right now [mcnally] yeah. [smith] is experi a revival. we're in a period of not just revival of that, but revival of kind of everything, right? there's revival on broadway, there's revival on television. is revival a good thing conceptually? it may be a good thing for you. it may be a good thing for people whose work is being-- [mcnally] oh, yeah. [smith] --reintroduced. it may be a good thing for a new generation getting it, but is it a good thing for theater, that rather than creating new work that stands on its own, we're going backwards. [mcnally] absolutely. this is a play in which people talk to one another for two and a half hours. this is a play in which people there's no texting. it's about two people, you and me, just speaking. i think that's rather fresh right now. [smith] it is. [mcnallystruggle to communicate with another human being. most plays now, there are cellphones, this is coming, a fax, so i think people are responding to that, the humanity oit, [smith] yeah. [mcnally] and the struggle, how hard it is to achieve intimacy with another rson. i'm very proud to show that to the next generation. [smith] thematically, that's a positive thing.

[mcnally] yeah, and the great plays, yes, they ould be seen. the impact a great play has on people. theater changes people's hearts. it speaks to their heart, and i can't think of another art form that speaks as eloquently and specifically to the human heart as theater. we can all write a good-- [smith] film and television do not and cannot-- [mcnally] al can write good editolays, but the plays that last are hee ones that speak toeart. [smith] when you won the tony the other night, you received that lifetime achievement award, i thought your speech was very moving, and i thought it was very insightful y many ways but this rticularly. you called out matter-of-factly, eoat this generation ofe in theater are so much more diverse and so much more reflective of the world that we live in. it seems to me that the diversity of the theater is not commented upon enough. we talk aboustruggles of traditional hollywood productions,

re film and television, tect the diversity of the audiences they wish to reach, but theas been ahead on that, has it not been? [mcnally] it's tried to be. but theas been ahead but now, we're going through seismic change in the world, and it's happening everywhere, not just in the theater. i think that's wonderful.here, [smith] that's a significant difference from before when you started and you acknowledge that's a positive. [mcnally] for a younger writer, someone just beginning, i can't g ink of a more excitme to be an artist and try to make some sense of what's happening to our world, not just our country-- [mcnally] --but the entire planet. [smith] but to the world. [mcnally] i was an eisenhower years baby. everybody lived in a nice house with a picket fence. [mcnally] i was an [smith] if they had problems, they mostly didn't talk about it. [mcnally] then suddenly, arthur miller said this american dream maybe has some dark edges to it. as i said the other night, it's true, my parentsback from "death of a salesman" visibly shaken, and my father was a salesman.

[smith] he quit his job? [mcnally] he quit his job, and invented himself as a free agent. [smith] it had that much impact on him at that time. [mcnally] he worked for anyone again, and that was very impressive. that play, i think, contributed to that, and they moved to texas. this was right after the war, we lived in new york. he wanted a place with a future and wo for himself. theater is incredibly powerful, still. yone who'd gotten that from reading a magazine article. [smith] not the same. [mcnally] i'm not the first to say this, we all like to gather around the campfire and be told a story that is hopeful, insightful, moving, shocking, but true. theater does not suffer lies easily. i think the truth always comes out theater. good actors keep you honest, good directors, good audiences. when you start bull*#*#*#*# the audience, they know, so it keeps you honest.

[smith] and good writers, and i want to ask you about that, because you have also said that theater has changed in many ways in the last 60 years, but you also, presumably as an artist, have changed. i was struck by the "american masters" documentart you on pbs. wendy wasserstein, the late wen wasserstein, described you as the person for whom writing created more anxiety than anybody she knew. it's like the old line,a wrn who hates writing more than anybody else in the world. [mcnally] yeah. [smith] have you changed as a writer in that respect? has it gotten easihas it g, do you do it a different way? what's the material change to you aa great writer? [mcnally] once i get started, i'm in, i'm oblivious. [smith] seriously, you get in the zone. [mcnal o] this building could fire and i'd keep writing. but until that happens, i can sharpen 3,000 pencils, (audience laughing) [mcnally] i can decide my computer has a virus, a million reasons, ihaven't wa. [smith] i'm so glad to hear that you have a million reasons, ihaven't wa. the same problems that the rest of us do. that's good.

and i said, "do you really write "every day of the year, 365 days a year?" he said, "i have to, i have to." i thought, god you're lucky. [smith] seriously. [mcnally] i can go a long time not writing. [smith] is there some inflection point or tripwire for you ou know is a good technique to take you away from washing the dishes and inspecting yourmputer s a good technique to get you into the zone? [mcnally] as an old journalist, started out as a journalist. deadline. [smith] the pressure. [mcnally] you tell the editor, i'm not in the mood to write that story today, you're fired reafast. (audience laughing) [smith] t give you a deadline, that's it. [mcnally] i could work at times square at rush hour and be oblivious by it. [smith] sly, in the old days, when technology was not as available to all of us and so much of a feature of our lives, you wrote, just practically speaking, to all of us and so much of in a different way.ves, have you taken to technology comfortably? [smith] i love it.

ed to use a short word when i would have preferred a longer word st so i wouldn't have to hit return and bring the carriage back. [smith] right. [mcnally] and now you can justype into space. [smith] pragmatically, i love that, that's great. [mcnally] you can correct, god forbid, you turn in a page with a misspelled word or a cross-o you get to retype the whole page again but procrastinat some more even. [smith] well, it's definitely made it easier. [mcnally] yes it has. used to be you would have your script mimeographed and would get out 10 copies. by 11, it was getting pretty faint to read. you had to be sure the star got number one. if geraldine page got script number four, she's not the first choice, obviously. you t to kim stanley. [smith] you're telling us all the secrets, this is great actually. [mcnally] and of cthrse, when you go picscript up a week later after they've typed it onto the mimeographed page you're hoping for some reaction from the clerk behind the countke "whoa, this is really, "good luck, this is wonderful."

[smithif you get no reaction, no. [mcnally] $87.12 please. no, we don't takchecks. no reaction. [smith] you know you're dead, actually, right. [mcnally] no, you just don't know anything. [smith] i love [mcnally] and now i can finish a script, hit send, and it's in london inne second. used to be airmail to london. [smi's the world we live in right now. so here's something that has not changed as i think about your career, as ick and review all the amazing things you've done, i want to talk aut sex, because you always want to talk about sex. gi go back to the very ing. sex, sexuality, sexual orientation, at a time when it wasn't a thing to talk about that in your art, when it was not commonplace. [mcnally] yeah. [smith] you talked about it then, up to and including today, you're talking about it. [mcnally] yeah. [smith] why has that been? wai know the answer, but i to h. why has that been such a feature, a f stinguishing feature,ur work and such a successful part of your work? [mreally] i think sex ins most people. i hope it does. [smith] it's as simple and as complicated as that. [mcnally] yeah, it's kind of a fact of li.

and my characters are all sexual. [smith] s. [mcnally] i'm a believer of write what you know about. my beloved mrs. mcelroy fr ray high school in corpus christi, later u.t., a freshman english program head, i wrote a short story, said "evones toyed with "a maraschino cherry gin cocktail" and she said, "your first sentence "made me sk to my stomach." i said, "what do you mean?" she said, "have you ever had a gin martini?" i said, "no, i'm 16 years old." she said, "the thought of a cherry "in a martini is so disgusting. "stick to what you know about. i just got it. i don't write about astronauts. i don't write about science. i write about people who are trying to get laid. 's a big motivation in my life. (laughing and applause) so write about it. (cg) it's a big motivation in a lot of peopls lives. [smith] it continues to be a big movation at 80 in your life. [mcnally] yes. [smith] there's hope for us all.

[mcnally] yes s), i'm happily married. you can taut change. i'm happily married to the most wonderful man. [smith] yeah. [mcnally] when i got to new york city, my first play had gay characrs, and i was reviewed like the new satan. [smith] well, just think about how long ago the playthat we-- [mcnally] 63 years ago. [smith] all those years. [mcnally] a review said, "the american theater ntould be better if his pa "had smothered him in his cradle." (audience groans) [smith] is that the worst review you ever got? [mcnally] probably not. [smith] probably not, i was about to say. wsve read some of your rev [mcnally] it's the only one that wanted me actually dead, never to have existed, so people didn't want to go near that subject. [smith] that was all those years ago. n i'm still thinking emore rece" [mcnally] oh, that was a long time ago too. th] yeah, but "the ritz" was 1975, which was long ago, but still, you alve done things that wnow take for granted that at the ti, were absolutely pathbreaking.

[mcnally] i didn't think they were, let's put itway. when i wrote "corpus christi," in which i re-imagined christ and the apostles, the disciples, as gay men, i did not think that would create such a, [smith] you didn't? [mcnally] no, because if anything, it's so orthodox. be nice to your neighbor, love one another, be generous. [smith] but you acknowledge that the story of america in 2019, and evenat the tit "corpus christi" was produced, which is 20 years ago, is how far we've come and how far we haven't. that second part is as relevant as the first part. [mcnally] we've come really far in my lifetime. i can't think of a period in history where more has changed. we have a little in a show i have on, "anastasia," and i asked for her autograph. she said, "i don't do script." i said, "what do you mean?" she said, "i don't write my name, i print it." i didn't know this revolution,

since i don't have children. [smith] the death of cursive. [mcnally] i spent two years learning, the palmer method, just copying that. kids don't, so that's a big change. [smith] everything is different. a[mcnally] not to haautograph. i love my autograph. [smith] if you had to name, and ts is an impossible thing to ask, the play td t you've been associath and i use that word associated because you've done manyerent ts within the realm of plays that you've worked on. one play you've been associated with to take with you, kind of e one that is closest to your heart or closest to who you are as an artist. ?what would it [mcnally] i couldn't. to who you are as an artist. [smith] you could not, there's not one. [mcnally] there's not one, i'm happy to say, i'm ashamed in, like oh, that was af my youth. [smith] i'd like to toss that one out. in either direction, you couldn't say. [mcnally] i love my chilen equally. [smith] all of them. [mcnally] yeah. n,smith] probably like our child me days more equally than other days, right? [mcnally] yes, and there's a lot of me in all of them.

[smith] yeah. [mcnally] "master class," i always say, a play reputably about maria callas teaching young students how to sing, is probably the most autobiographical play i've written. [smith] but you would put it alongside all the oths, in terms of you don't make a distinction een this one is great and this one is merely okay. [mcnally] now, there's plays i'd ill like to see done again in a different production, 'cause what i do is two dimensions on a page. i need an actor, a director, a designer, and finally an audience to, validates the wrong word, but it's working, they're quiet, they're leaning forwar they're listening. [smithit's almost like an affirmation, right. [mcnally] or they're leaving at intermission. novelist is not there when you throw the book-- t mith] the book away, u are there. [mcnally] i'm there, if clear to the end, well, we'll find out tomorro when the will is opened, curtain, clearly the play's not over and you see peopuggling to put their coat on-- [smith] you got a problem.

re[mcnally] they don't bout that will. they're leaving. i don't need a paper to tell me that. [smith] again, the "american masters" doc which i commend tobody i think it's a great piece that sums up your life very nicely-- [mcnally] it does. [smith[ all the actors you've worked with to be mass-facing people, really at the very beginni their career, owe a debt to you, and 'cause you'll probably go whoa, you're very humble, but i think they would say and say on this documentary, whether it's edie falco, stanley tucci, nathan lane, christine baranski. people who have been characters in everything in all of our lives, kind of start out going through your door. what an extraordinary opportunit as a playwright to get to bring those people to life. [mcnally] i owe a debt to them because they brought them to life. if you heard me read "frankie and johnny," you'd think he worst play ever written. [smith] right, but edie falco and stanley tucci. [mcnally] --don't think it is and they agreed to be in it. kathy bates created the role. that's pretty good to start with. bu i go to the theater,

and i see a nathan lane or a swoosie kurtz. [smith] you could pick any of them right now. [mcnal l] before they're nathe or swoosie kurtz, the director, name is arin arbus, she's an extraordinary young director is doing "frankie and john." i've seen her work in brooklyn. too many people wait till they win the tony awds, say, "oh, we should get arin arbus to direct it." d no, i saw her first, offered it. there was resistance people said, "who is this person?" i said "someone who directs plays in brooklyn, "and i think sheenius." one of the best directors i've ever worked with. [smith] well, you take chances on people, didn't you? [mcnally] someone took a chance on me. austinking a chance on me by doing "immortal longings." that's important. [smith] let's say a word about that. we have just a couple minutes left. i'm always inclined at this point in the interview, to say well what are you ing next. well, we know the answer. you're about to have the world premier at the zach scott theater in austin, a fantastic institution, and it's going to see

life for the first time with hopes that it will take flht. but it will get its start here. why ardoing it here? [mcnally] one, they asked me. [smith] right. nce laughs) [smith] it used to be we opened the play in new haven, now it's we open the play in stin. [mcnally] the journey to broadway's very different. it's easy for me to get a world premiere. it's hard to get a second production. [smith] yep. [mcnally] so, d feel i've succeeded with this play if, 10 years from now, the zach were known as the home of new american plays. began here, that began here, and build a reputation for new american plays. [smith] right, but you're making a conscious decision. less about austin or about zach then about how you work these days, less about austin or about zach because who does not want to work with you? anything wityour name on it at this point in your career-- [mcnally] you'd be surprised. [smith] you know what, i would be surprised.

in talking about, you've had successes over the time that you've done this ansfyou've had less succ experiences, right. [mcnally] big disasters. [smith] you learn from disasters asas you learn, or more, right? but you make a decision about how you work. the fact is, i want to acknowledge that at 80, coming up on 81, havingdone th, you still seem to have enormous energy, enormous passion, enormous creativity. that is not nothing. [mcnally] no, and i don't know-- that comes from, i think you're born stagestruck or you're not. i was very lucky. my parents took me to see a show when i was five years old and the curtain went up, d i was like oh my god, that's wonderful. but if you're not taken art as a young person, you don't get to say, "i heard a symphony by beethoven. "i saw a painting by van gogh." nmith] or i saw ethel merin "a" [mcnally] it's up to us to give the pleasure of art to young people.

[mcn can't let it become-- give [smith] we forget about the obligations that we have to the people who come after us. ly] and not let it become the sole province of elitist, i can afford a $300 seat. [smith] in the last minute, i want to acknowledge your parents. again, this "american masters" piece is clear about this, but you have also been clear about it over time. you had a difficult time growing up in corpus christi. it was a tough family situation, a tough household, but ey did expose you t, to the kinds of hat you then sort of took the baton from them and what we see today, in these 60 years, in some respects, owes to that. you can transcend your circumstances. [mally] when people say, o you think your parents "loved you with all the fighting?" i said, "i know they did." one day arturo toscanini was going to conduct "aida," and it was the smu-notre dame game, and we had one good radio in the living room

and we had a car radio. they went and sat in the car lion a cold northern day ening to smu-notre dame, d they gave me the good radio in the house-- [smith] to listen to toscanini. [mcnally] to "aid" that's love. it's not saying i love you, it's action. we show people we love them by he the way we act towards i'm so glad i have that memory. i'm glad my father's favorite singers were edi piaf, billie holiday, and ethel merman because i loved unusual voices, which is why i got addicted to maria callas. [smith] yeah, it all goes back to that. as i leave here with you today, i'm gog to dial up toscanini in tribute to your dad, how about that, on the rad. what an honor it is to get to meet you. [mcnally] thank you. [smith] and congratulations on your award, and thank you so much for your years of work. we're all better for it. k yo terrence mcnally, thank you so much. [mcnally] thank you very much. (applause) [smith'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard

to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [mcnally] michael t nnett said that abou"chorus line," and i thought he was so right. the genius of "chorus line" was that i h the idea to paint a line, and that's what this play is about. who gets to cross that line. that's a good idea. a musical about frida kahlo is maybe not such a good idea. [female announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hilo partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, the alice kleberg reynolds foundation, claire andgyarl stuart, and by ent

etptioning sponsored by wn >> thompson: on this edition for essunday, september 22: prident trump hits the riod and internl issues are center stage. and in our signature sment: what peru is doing to reform the gold mining industry. next on "pbs newshour weekend." >> pbs newshour weekend is made possible by:po bernard and irene schwartz. sue and edgar wachenheim iii. the cheryl and philip milstein family. the j.p.b. foundation. rosalind p. walter, in memory of george o'neil. barbara hope zuckerberg. corporate funding is provided by mutual of america, designing customiz i