robert:xplosive testimony upends the impeachment debate. president trump: this was the worst hoax in the histo of our country. robert: president trump launches out at democrats. as they lauh an investigate and republicans stormimn achment hearing. >> the attempted impeament of president trump isnconsistent with due process as we know it. robert: after bombshell testimony from a top diplomat. >> he gave a devastating openg statement. >> they're freaked out. they're trying to stop this investigation. robert: next. announcer: this is "washington week." funding is provided by -- >> there's a moment, a m ment in

where everythg is clear. at fidelity, wealth planning is about clarityty knowing who you are, where you've been and where you want announcer: additional funding is provided by -- koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cull cultural differences in our community. and from contributions to your s station from viewers like you. thank you. once again, from wasngton, moderator robert costaful robert: good evening, the house -- jolted this week by two major developments. they could affect the debate for weeks to come. first, america's top diplomat in ukraine, ambassadorilliam taylor gave t damagingestimony

behind closed doors, testifying that the white house did threaten towithdraw military ais un thank you crane started probes tt would implement -- help president trump. late thursday, came reports that attorney general wilam barr ha opened a crinal investigation of the f.b.i.'s cog ucts dure 2016 campaign. even as the d.ons.ctor general is wrapping up his own investigation of related issues. those proceedings have been cheered by the president and by repuicans who see them as a to the house h impeachment probe. adam ship a jerry that would learn released a statement in response -- if the department of justice may be yuste used as a tool for political retribution ne election, the rule of law will suffer irreparable damage.

joining me, catherine lucey, white house reporter for the "wall street journal." karoun demirjian, amnenawaz for bs newshour and jonathan swan, national political reporter for 25 axios. karoun, you've been following in peachment inquiry all week but now for the d.o.j. to be opening a criminal invesgation, what's the significance of that development? >> tg tim has to be pleasinas the president because it presents a counter narrative for what's been going on. tough impeachment, investigati which we know going onight nono looking at thank you crane nnections and tough investigations into theher jenks of the russia probe, which russia and ukraineai areot that separable, giving thehe perspective something to focus on, something he can now double down on as the focus is heating up o impeachment.

durham has been a criminal prosecutor who's been in charge of this investigation for a while. in a way he's always had, because of the role the ability to imp iel a grand juryy or isse indiets against individuals. we don't k kw that he's actually taken those steps y. so the actually significance -- does this actually ends up pulling in career investigators fr the f.b.i. or somewhere for some sort of malfeasance or just end up being a political gift for the president a time when he feels people around for him. robe: does this raisebo estions the independence of the d.o.j.? >> thinkde pre trump has always been pretty clear about the role he thinks the department of justice should play, which is thou he be able to direct the work they're doing and by extension, the work

the attorney general is doing. we know attorney general barr iv in in this investigation. so what is the motivation for opening thisestigation in the first place but barr messaged this very early on. he said before congress, i do believe spying occurred on the trump campaign. ild wou be willing to explore the orins of the russian information. he's purked back on subpoena efforts to try to get at the returns as well.cks -- tax raising it to a criminal probe ups the antti. turbocharges it,ticks i up a normal. as karounenoned, gives them all of those powers now.. we don't kno khat evidence led to that some piece o of evidenc had to lead. to th we don't know what that is. robert: here's what i i n't understand. there's the d.o.j. probeve

igating the or jinls of the russia probe and then you it have inspector general also within d.o.j. doing his own report. how do they align, ift l? jonathan: we don't know and i think we should be very cautioui about that this is counter programming in terms of whg we're learn about this criminal investigation beinged elevo a criminal investigation. number one, we don't know when when he saidk, it's past the ththshold where i believe chames coul been committed. durham is a serious for with a serious reputation. he's not seen as a partisan hack. he has a storied career. counter programming would mean that adam goldman and katie bennett of "the new york times" were used in sort of this way and they're two of the bestnt departf justice reporters. we don't nope when this was it could have been opened weeks

ago and it could be as simple as a leak investigation. there was so much classified information leaked in the earl period of the russian investigation. there's so much we don't know d people are going to want to spin this in ways they want to do. they're going to be hysterical about it but i think it could be simple as barr doing what p wants to do and durha keeping the facts and an open mind. robert: down from the d.o.j. to the capitol and you happenedd ambassador taylor behind closed doors give damagin testimony about a quilled pro quo in the trump administration. do they see this as a major urning -- turning points? >> this is some of the most detailed testimony we've seen so far. it was a 15-major opening

statement reall laying out in sort of cinematicurns. it was beautifulif written,he way taylor takes usnto taking eob. it reminded me of movies where someone is brought into a different world like goodllas or "hustlers." somebody taken into a different world a they're trying to figure it out and h comes to realize there are two different foreign policiesoing onnd then this leads into h h explanation of what he you thinp sos to bening with the president's engagement on ukraine. the whi house is continuing with a messaging that is a lotot focused on process. they're attacking the process on the they are -- and they aree also trying to discredit a lot of the witnesses. heard the president today criticizing taylor and we'll see if thatticks. this is a decades-long career diplomat who came forward, who was hired by this

administtion. robert: and you're standing outside, notebook in hand the secure area inside of the house while all these people testify but ambassador taylor in particular. take me inside the room. what were you hearing from members about how it went and why it matted? >> ambassador taylor's testimony has had the most impact of anyone who has come in thus far in this impeachment probe. it's because of the details of his testimony and als the way he connects dots. even when he wasn't in the room, he was in the their active of the peopleth who were i room. and he talked abo how the giuliani limb srted to diverge from the traditional roots. you had the mulvaney camp saying maybe we shouldn't be there.

he paints a timeline on the freeze to the funngame. when he was told specifically by people in the administration that yes, the money is being leveraged in order to secure a prise from the ukrainian president to conduct investigations int the energy mpany that joe binden's son was on the board of andhis conspiracy theory around the g.n.c. server that was hacked i 2016.. e theory says it was somehow edged up in ukraine and ifldound it wrove that ukraine interfered in the 2016 eelection, not that's's bee wildly debunked already. the fact thatayras so powerful is i think the reason you saw a political eruption the next day. you're there covering it and you see the testimony itself is a game changer for the house democrats as they build theirst case agahe president but house republicans decided to take matters to their own hands. trump royalists forced their way

into a sece interview room on capitol hill, blocking witness testimony for hoursou >> we're going to g gin and demand we get our rights as members of congress. robert: what was it like when they actually stopped the testimonfrom happening? >> they delayed theestimony for five, five and a half hours from starting. that was the deputy assistant secretary of defense, laura cooper who eventuall talked about the nuts and bolts of how thank youne c military aid works. there were a lot of ieresting parts to this. it was certainly a display. there's nothing that prevents those lawmakers from walking into the skiff. members have enough security clearance to go in. also about a dozen already had the right to be there because they wer membersrs of these thr panels and a lot of the arguments has been abo process, as catherine was referring to, the republicans are a part of this process. they have the right to ask

questions in these interviews. they are getting equal time. they don't like the fact this is happening but they're not being iced. o >> is also reported that that entire spectacleac took place t day after president trump is calling on republicans to take off the gloves and show up and fight for him. he wantso know that members of his own party are showing up and on his se of that fig. this is one way necked displ. that a few years ago when republican trey gowdy was leading closed door investigate give sessions into the attacks on benghazi, he aued they hould be closed door on on forr a reason. because there's national security in py and it gives chances for witnesses orr hones abt their testimony. robert: let's talk about the republicans making process the issue. like they're able to engage on

the substance of the tmony? jonathan: there are some house republicans, probably a small group, that wot d be happy to fight on the substance and wher' th no appetite to fight on the substance is in the senate. so the back story to this resolution that lindsay graha unfolded that was very tame. robert: what was it? jonathan: it was a process argument. process.rgument against the lindsay graham wanted to write a letter to pelosi that was going to be fairly bombastic. this is a sham, etc., etc. he pitch it would letters to the republicans at l their luncht week and their response was not good and the reason they didn't want to do, number one,, you write a letter like that, anyone who doesn't sign on, you've created an enemies listor trump immediately. numb two, you don't get in signaturesurit's e earrassing,

he looks week. so graham shifts to a resolution. he writes it. it's still a little too hot. mitch mcconnellones its down and you gets there vy milquetoast document that everyone can agree on. republican senators do not wants to defend donaldrump on the substance and the most they're willing to go i this sort of finicky process argument to say they should chae the way they'r doing it.t. >> koda number three, a lot of them don't feel likeik they kno where this is gng and they don't feel like they're getting clear guidance from the white house. >> those are both tru >> so we have four r rsons and that's the only -- other thing we've been seeing playing out zphtsht outside the white house. they've been agitatingar more. are they going to set all so-called waroo leve more formalized process?

bring pe in? robert: and you have to wonder. they were make this argument about closed testimony and a closed process but there's growing supportmong democrats to hold opening -- open hearing. smoking guns. eve they have two the p pne calll with the president o ukraine and the other, a quid pro quo. j you could han bolton, the former national security advisor and just a few weeksed testi publicly. . what's the white house strategy then? how soonoo will we seeeople actually their hands in the airplane testiing in public? >> i don't think it will be the interview they've already they've sent out. subpoenas but if we could see potentially before thanksgiving some of these individuals start to come up. that's the points at whi the white house is going to start control on what the message

becausehe democrats are very focus is on who's the wes person to deliver that message. they think taylor, extremely compelling. former ambassador to the ukraine, extremely compelling. programs john bolton given that he's one of the president's guys. ill be interesting tsee how the counter narrative from the republicans changes. there was a decision today in the courts to release the mueller grand juryannformation, while that's not directly related it's kind of a little bit an acknowledgement from the courts that you are running what w consider a legitimate impeachment inquirey. the g.o.p. has been argng that this is not legitimate because it hasn't been established. so that may require somepi ting now from the g.m. heading into next week. robebe: how frale is the republican coalition as they

confront the fafas and everything coming ahead? >> you have iogine there's going to be a moment of reckoning at somee point. robert: what prompts that? >> a lot of republicans are e-weighing theirection bids. if you are a vulnerable republican in 2020,ou have to carefully weigh how closely to align yourself with the president or whether to stand up with other mention of your party and vociferouslyefend him ririt now. i think a lot of people are weighing that decision very carefully and i don't think there e enough facts that have been revealed to inform that decision. >> certataly we've seen from the white house they're making some effort to get more of a process in place. we'veonrmed they're doing momo regular meetings, considering bringing in anoth staffer. but it's important to remember that with this white house, there's a core gup of people who feel like they've survived a lot of things beforend that through mueller, cavanaugh, been

access hollywood. they do believe that if they keepheir heads down that there's a pat forward. robert: what about that original points of the discussion about the d.o.j.riminal probe? dodoe in tin sflarments gray hop to follow up with whatever comes out of the department of justice that -- in their investigations? lnathan: peoplee donald trump jr. are very, very frustrated with lindsay gray lala and have started so publicly. they've started a hashtag ay where's lin robert: so he's under pressure >> huge presssse. he's getting lilt up. tucker carlson did a segment that lilt him up. atey're notfied by in resolution. i quoted a source close to the president's eldest son yesterday saying he's got to use his powers as judiciary cha.

're sick of hearing him talk it up o fox. they want to see him that roll to -- role to use that against the back house democrats. i don't know specifically what they want him to do. ndsay graham said he doe't't want to turn it into a circus but he might feel a bit of pressure. >> the problems are twofold. one, there's a whole constitutional thing about the housing with able to start the peachment proceedings and the nate having to ookt like a jury. they can't poison thth waters to much. alsothealculati for lindsay graham. it was a week or so ago that he said he was going to give rudy giuliani a platform to speak and we're not n hearing him say tha right now. really, who is the white house going to trot out that's going rudy giuliani a bit of a t? loose can than public and if he'soing to do it behind

closed door, that'hagoing to create way too much spinning to what'soing onn in the house. robert: as all this happens on the impeachment front, turkish troopsovemented into a slice of northeastern syria last week lease forces and on wednesday, he and turkeyn agreede a permanent cease-fire. president trump: net som else fight over this long, blood-stained sand. robert: he also announced the creation a safe zone between turkey and swia. resident erdogan o of turkey and russian president vladimi putinigned a power-sharing this week for theio r changing the dynamic in the middle east. w amna,t does this deal mean for russia? >> it means russia has much more

that space. e and influence robert: to what end? >> one, part of a larger they're more aligned to turkeyk now. we saw this previously with tensions between turkey and the in a deal for the air missile defense system that they bought from the russians. the u.s. didn't like it. there have been tensions for a while between the u.s. andhi turkey, is aato ally. but that alliance that therk h had with the forces on the ground. that was always a tenuous alliance because the stronger alliance was always with turkey. it w w never a questionf when the u.s. was going to leave. we flethe u.s. would have to leave at some point. th q bigstionas how they'd leave. and by all accounts, the day after that call byresident trump and president erdogan, it was total chaos has to -- as too how that decision was reached.

robert: why did many advisors pull back on the support of turkey? >> anytime you think about the foreign policy, you have to think about it in the america first frame and the thing he keeps coming back to is getting tr out of these regions, reducing our prence abroad and i think this fed into that idea still. he was able to try and -- robert: part of his 202 pitch? >> certainin, i was at his rally in texas last week and healks a lot about trying to reduce engagement in foreign wars or ng-standinin foreign conflflts and that's very popular with his base. i the problems that he's troops to pr ally sendingngore abby: fields with no allies now an tops aren't potentially coming he. jonathan: cnats 1,800 troops to

saudi. >> and they're more in danger now becauseau they're not inclid to stick their nextut to help protects theroops on the ground. t robert: woes this new deal mean for the kurds in this region? >> it's not a great deal. the kurds are kindf sitting ducks now because nobody likes them in theegn. theurks think they're supportsing ha what they consider to be a terroristza orgaon in their country. the syrians don't't like them tt much. they're left now having to take the deal that theusans brokeered. russia is very good at manipulating instability in untries alongsheir border to maintain control. that's a dangerous ge and we've lost an important foothood in one of the most dangerous eas and the results could be catastrophe risk going tpwhar.

>> you have to give donald trump points for accuracy. it's clear they've wanted this senior a long time. the they is turke they've wanted to clear out the kurds. i interviewed the president, one of the most curledors -- kurdish people in the world. he said he is sick,ouorried ab the fear of ethnic cleansinnsand just imagine salah's ears when her a a -- hears the president of the united states say it needed to be cleaned up. to salah's earsith that history, thainis a chi phrase. robert: t iraqi president. what does the worlds make of what happened this weere >> t also the very sudden undoing of what has been long-standing u.s. policy in the region that happened over a phoneeall between two individuals. all the gains that were made to counter isis in e region, that done on the backs and lives

of those kurdish-led forors, those could bendone. we've also got those forces now being fced back into the arms of bashir al-assad. hat's not good for the u.s. robeo we expect republicans oight back against the ministrations position? >>ni've seen bipartisan opposition against this. nomes at a moment where the perspective realds republicans with -- him. we had this, we had the efforts to have g-7 at doral. you've seen a number or points where the parties has bn prepared to put some stance betweenbehemselves ands president. robert: thank y joining us tonight o "washington week." really appreciate it andu thank or sharing your evening with us. check out o latest "washington week" extra. live or on social media. i'm robert costa. go, nationals.

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inside that tent, 4 fikers are literally

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