[female announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, the alice kleberg reynolds foundation, claire and carl stuart, and by entergy. [evan smith] i'm evan smith. he's one of fiction's rising stars. his debut novel "there there" was called "an american epic" by the new york times and has won raves from coast to coast. he's tommy orange, this is overheard. [smith] let's beonest. is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you a what has befallen other nations in africa? you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. you a problem and over time took it on. let's star wwith the sizzle befoget to the steak. are you gonna run for president? i think i just got an f from you, actually. this is overheard. (audiencapplause)

[smith] tommy orange, welcome. [tommy orange] thank you for having me. [smith] thank you very much for being here. sove the book. i wanna talk all about the book and talk all about you, but i wanna talk about the title of the book first. so i didn't actually get the reference until after that this is gertrude stein. [orange] mm-hmm. [smith] right? like you, an oaklander. is that the right way to say it? oaklandite? [orange] oaklander. [smith] oaklander. [orange] yeah. [smith] so gertrude steinndfamk "there's no there there." and this iyour response, this is your rebuttal gertrude stein. [orange] and it's also, i wodn't put so much of the weight on gertrude stein as more on people who have sort of misused that quote. because she was just talking about her childhood home. [sth] very specific. [orange] and it was developed over. so in her "everybody's" autobiography, somebody asks her, "why don't you write about oakland?" "there is no there." she's just talking about her experience. and so people have used it to say oakland has no character. and that is more a reflection on at people think of oakland

or are trying to make oakland into than what her thoughts were. [smith] it may be as much a rebuttal of those people than of r. [orange] yeah. [smith] right. and oakland, as we'll come to in a second, is a character in this book. this book struck me, it's a portrait ofo america that we don't see. and it's a portrait of americans we don't see. there is not, as far as it goes, a lot of native american literature or native american storytelling about the native american community in this country. in novel form. right? [orange] yeah, and, you know, specifically, where natiple are living in cities. [smith] because let's y that, in fact, this follows a dozen characters, in this book, and it really is about the lives of native americans in an urban environment, sort of detached from what you would think of as theraditional environment in which these stories would be told. [orange] yeah. so, in the 1950s and '60s, there was relocation. so the u.s. government was encouraging people to move

but when they came, even though it was sort of, le so the idea was thatnt was encpeould assimilateo move and essentially disappear in cities, and the culture and language would be sort of the last step of erasure, but indian centers started up all over in every major city and all these offerent tribes from ar the country would come together and form community. those people had families, and so there's generations of people that have this background o you know, having grandmothers that were born and raised in the city or having mothers that did. [smith] indian culture, though, despite this, has persisted. right? indian culture is still a thing. [orange] yeah. [smitih] right? and in fact there's a very key, i think it was a key scene in this book, wh oe there's a powwow at tland coliseum. i mean, what i love about it is is that indian culture persists regardless of circumstance, regardless of setting,

regardless of, you know, is it old times, contemporary times, there is sti about this culture that you write about. and in your own life it continues to be a significant defining aspect. [orange] yeah, i meareit means a lot of dif things. something that we've suffered from is the idea that there's one way to be indian, and often that means it's historical or it's tied to some specific tradition. and it just means, there's over 575 tribes, all with distinct languages and histories and ways of being indian. so this was one, this was just one aspect of native culture and american life that i've neveiaseen in books or in m so i vero much wanted to write iat lack. [smith] you are the child of a native fath and a white mother. you self-describe or self-identify though, as native american. that's your own, and i mean that yfrom the perspective r art. you are a native american novelist.

you're not a novelist who happens to be tive american. you view that identity as central to your art and to yourplac. [orange] well, you know, i was a native person before i was an artist. i grew up with my dad, very much knowing that i'm native. [smith] and you'd go back to his, go back to oklahoma with him, right? [orange] yeah. and it was just part of what i was. knew i was sort of, youow, i w. i'm biracial. but there was really nothing to speak of. [smith] well, the fact i b you point out in tk, you're as indian as obama is african-american. [orange] but there is no cultural side on the white side and there is on the native side. you know, my mom fell for my dad in a tee ie in northern new mexithe '70s. she was sort of a wandering hippie from oakland and heracticing ceremony in northern new mexico. so my identity has never been anything other than i know i'm nive, and my dad always made sure that we

knew that and were proudf it. so i'm automatically a native author because that, you know, you can only be an author without any qualifying thing before it if you're white. you're just an author. otherwise you put the thing before. [smith] it's a little ridiculous that it has to be qualied. an author is an author is an author. al clearly, your own experience and your own identity is on every page in every paragraph of this book. you've chosen to tell your story, this story, as opposed to some other story. [orange] yeah. [smith] i mean it's the oldest thing in the woted, your story, right? [orange] and i think, you know, i think again, to just tell any story, and if the just start talking about a protagonist and theya ave that guy go ronk and whatever, he survives most of the mountains and never brings up anything about his background. he has the privilege of not having to write anything in. and the audi because we've only been

reading white male authors for so long, will automaticssume he's white and male. [smith] right. [orange] but if you're writing from your experiencend, you know, i would never write a default person that didclude my personal details. - so it's, you sort of have to write agsomething that's been the default. you have to actively resist, otherwise you're sort of erased on the page. [smith] well, you become part of the problem at that point. but you know, in the case of white male authors, say, who clearly have dominated the landscape of letters for a long ti, there are plenty of people who they read growing up in whom they see themselves, now or oneay. but if you're a native author, there have not been a lot of native authors for you to look to as mentors, role models, but if you're a native author, or to get a sense of hdo this. so who did you read growing up? [orange] i didn't read growing up. i wasn't a good student. i was into playing sports. i sort of actively resisted sool.

and became a musician when i was 18 and then i went to school for sound engineering, this was right before the digital age took over. [smith] good career choice. [orange] yeah. [smith] right. [orange] pretty much right after i graduated, my skills were obsolete, and i got a job at a used bookstore and that's when i fell in love with reading, iny and then withsolete, and i got wrafter that.ed bookstore and what i was reading then was not based on a teacher's curriculum or anybody telling me what to read. i ended up reading a lot in translation ufd just a lot of obscure and just followed my own instincts. and so-- [smith] your voice as an artist came from the experience that you had [orange] yeah, exactly. i didn't end up reading a lot of native writers until i got into my mfa program at the institute of american indian art. [smith] is there something about native writers that is particular, your mind? would you or would we, as non-native readers, say, be able to see, in native writing so ithing that would caout?

[orange] no more than black writing would include black experience or chinese writing would include chinese experience. it's only categorized a certain way because it's different than what the dominant-- [smith] characters, story, setting. [orange] yeah. it's great writing. the settings might be different and the characters' lives might be different. what literature can do and what novels n do that i love is that, no matter who the reader is, you can live through an experience toand come to understand a and understand a people better, no matter what people that might be. [smith] and if you create amazing characters i mean i love orville redfeather, there are a lot of characters in this book, like iabout a dozen we follow, i'm partial to orville redfeather, you can find aspects of yourself in them regardless of who these characters are. and i think that's one of the great things about, these are memorable charters all in this book. it's a very vivid picture of life today.

is it the book that you set out to write? i wondered about that. i wondered, because this book is also not told in a traditional a to z linear narrative. it kiner jumps around and s different ways in which the story is presented. it mak i it actually a lot moeresting. it feels like a very modern book in that sense. is this wh you intended? [orange] it is. you know, there were some craft choices that i knerybefore i knew what s was gonna tell. i knew i wanted a prologue, 'causee the way that functions in a novel. you can kind of experiment with a prologue and do thinghowever you want before you start the chapters and the story. i knew thanted a whole bunch of povs of a whole bunch of different characters and have, figuring t while you read how their lives intersect and how that also, you know, how it relates to the arc of the whole stor these are just craft decisions. [smith] but i love this crafty, processy stuff. i love this. becauseally, these are very important decisions that ultimately are crucial to the success of the book.

[orange] yeah, so, the idea, the idea came to me in a single mome what the actual book would be. i had just found out i was gonna be a father and i was driving with my wife do to l.a.-- [smith] well, i knowou have a son named felix who's seven now? [orange] correct. [smith] so we're timing this perfectly. so it's like, eight years ago? [orange] yeah, he's thout the same age abook. 'cause i thought of the idea before and i didn't write into it for a year 'cause i was busy becoming a father for the first time. [smith] preparing. yeah, yeah yeah. [orange] but the idea just dropped into my head to have all these lives converge at a powwow at the oakland colium. just, that was the basic premise, and i, you know, i spent the next six years just, that was after that writing into it. or, you know, i didn't write for that first year, but after that, after waiting r a year, actually, you know, i really started waking up at five in the morning and i'd write after he went to sleep and i was working full time, so, i really went hard at it at first. i can't really explain exactly how i made it all work,

but over six years, you know, you just keep going at the same thing and you figure it out. [smith] yeah. and. so we've talked about oakland a couple times, mentioned that oakland is the setting of this book, but really, oakland is all over this, oakland is a character in this bo. why is oakland such an interesting place for you? about other works of art that feature oakland. and i th "fruitvale station." right? the film from a couple years ago. and then i kinda drew a blank after th. am i not remembering something? [orange] well, there's two that you should watch wherthit represents oakland, 're terrific films. it's "blindspotting" and "sorry to bother you." they just came out this year. [smith] oh, "sorry to bother you" oh, that's right! "sorry to bother you." i did see "sorry to bother you," i did not see "blindspotting." you know, i didn't think about "sorry to bother you" as an oakland film i d where you, you know,ting." you can't help but understand that "fruitvale station" is an oakland film.

so oakland as a character, talk about that. [orange] for me, it's home, and you know, i love it because it's where i grew up and it's wt i know. you know, i can't, almost can't walk anywhere in oakland or drive around anywhere without it connecting to some memory, and that's kind of what home is is, yoe know, where you spend st time and where your memories are. but i was writing into the lack, again, you know, i didn't see any stories about natives in cities and i didn't see very many stories or novels specifically about oakland. so i wanted to represent something that i thought was a very interesting, complex and beautiful place. [smith] yep. is there something specific out the native community in oakland that people should take away from this book as a result of what you've done here? is the community in oakland any diffent than it might be in another big city? is the oaklandommunity something specific? [oraake] i think people fromnd know the oakland experience and can recognize it. don't know if i, youple know, it's in the book.

but i think there are probably more commoes between native people living in cities in other major cities than there are differences. you know, native people in general have more commonalities than differences, and that's true of urban native people. if someone said to you, i'm gonna read a book by a native american novelist that's going to be about the native experience, i thu would imagine that it would be more on the land than in a big city. so there's something kinda counter to conventional wisdom or to the stereoof it abou. [orange] uh huh. you say in the book, being indian is not necessarily being of the land. i kept thinking, at every page here, i kenking, this is as much a story about detachment from the land or at least from the stereotype as it is about anything. [orange] yeah, so, you know, there's this sort of

tension between reservation natives and urban natives. [smith] yeah. [orange] and it's this idea that you don't have a land base. i mean, if you grow up in a community where you ike you have a land base and you see other people of your tribe, ybe there's some level of relationship to the language, you know, that's an eaener place to build an ty. and a lot of urban native spaces are intertribal. so you got somebfey that's like three dnt tribes, and so you can't necessarily pick one and say that one is more important. but the land that's often being referred to is reservation land that people were moved to. not always. but the idea that somebody that grew up in the city has no basis for identity because they don't have a connection to some mythical land that's been brought up for too long, [smith] that's a construct. [orange] yeah, it's a construct. you know, 70 percent of native people have been living in cities for over a decade. [smith] right.

but one difference we were visiting about this earlier, one differenti is that, on the reser, there's a presumed sovereignty or kind of an insularity or an intimacy to the community, anin the city, that, both for good and for bad, is not there. [orange] mm-hmm. [smith] right? [orange] yeah. yeah, i mean, there isn't, there's not technically, you know, urban people in cities are not a people. but it's an exborience that i'm writing, and often there's, like i said, there's peopm different tribes, there's a lot of intermarriage between tribes or between people and native people. like you were saying earlier, i drove back to oklahoma growing up and saw my relatives there d understood that there'a peoplm and that's where they are now. so all this ssentity stuff is very but it's a mess that we're moving deeper into. you know, by 2042, whites are the minorities. ouand we're talking a big mix of different mixes of people.

and i think we havto find s to talk about it, and not monolithic ways and not singularatays of talking about eople are. [smith] so for someone like felix, your son, he wants to understand native culture. technology is at his disposal. i mean, you actually have a scene in which orville redfeather, in this book, 14 years old, kind of googles indian culture, or oks on, i don't know if it's youtube, but basically goes online to learn about indian culture. i mean that really, i thought, was such an interesting little statement on, you know, how far we've moved ay from the experience of understanding who you are and what you are, that you now have to access technology to take you back. so tha nis one big differen, is that the preservation or the persistence of indian culture,me ways, relies on people being able to get acss to aspects of it that themay not experience on a day to day basis, which invariably, like everything else in the world, involves technology. [orange] yeah, and i think culture is a living concept and it shouldn't, we shouldn't need to reach back. i mean, sure, you bring stuff along,

but native people have been adapting for 500 years in different ws, and culture changes, it's not a static thing. [smith] yeah. so how do you help your son understand who he is anwho you are and what indian culture is, in your own life? [orange] i mean, the same way any other race would, you know, you have conversations. there's not...this question comes up and it, you know, it not different than, he knows who his family is and he knows, we tell him stories and we have conversations out what it means. he's part chinese, too. sometimes the question is bothersome because it feels like it means he needs to be doing something that's traditional that's the very thing i'm sort of speaking against. [smith] exactly. [orange] you know what i mean? so it's complicated. there's not an easy answer. and he's of different things.

so it's a hard question to answer because the's no simple answer like i'm taking him to powwow dance lessons. [smith] but yoci experience being bi growing up, and in fact i've heard you say that sometimes you were, you knowed out mistakenly for being chinese when you were growing up. i mean, the fact is that evryybody is a mix of eing, or a lot of people are a mix of everything these days, and so it's probably not that unusual that you h sort of sort through all that and you just move on with your life. [orange] w sl, like i said, it'sject that we need to get better at talking about, e it's complicated and there's so many facets to it. and we'rhamoving further into we're not moving away from that. and we'rhamoving [smith] we're moving toward it. [orange] yeah, we're moving toward it. [smith] you teach at the school in santa fe where you got your mfa. you're not there all the time, but you're, like, doing a week a month? .[orange] uh hm [smith] is that right? but you're, like, doing a week a month? tell me about the students you encounter. what are you doing to bring along the neeration of tommy oranges, or looking for the next or enabling the next tommy orange? what do you see in these students

and what do you tell them or encourage them to do based on your own experience? [orange] i think one of the benefits of the mfa program, i mean a lottuf it's just basic craft, it's just teaching good writing. one of the benefits of having gone tough the book experience is that i sort of understand and have access to, sort of like a gatekeeper, like you have access to the publishing world in ways and you can encourage students and you can teach them what that whole process is like. but most of the work is just getting your writing into really good shape and doing rd worthat it takes to make a good book. [smith] i always think that it's hard to teach somebody how to be a good writer. you cas talk to them about aspe craft, but at the end of the day, the story has to come from them and the desire to do it has to come frm and the voice has to come from them. bu [orange] i think so, i think sometimes good writing gets overly mystified. bu [orange] i think so, think, like, a good musician, that's an artform too,

they learn to practice and practice anpractice and practice until they can really play. so i think, that doesn't always transfer to teachi good writing. i think you need to put in the same, it's the same work ethic at you need to take to any art form to make good art. given the year that you've had, the success of this book, the reviews that this bo has received, you were on the long list, as they call it, for the national book award, the 10 that were the filists for this award, success is amazing when it comes, but it also has to be kept in perspective. an, you know, just some number of years ago you were back at the bookstore working full-time, reading, learning what you liked. noall of a sudden, and probably you couldn't have imagined, and other people couldn't imagine as a debut novelist, ave hit it out of the parkn your first time up. right? so how do you process that experience of being a success the first time out of e gate?

what does it tell you about what you need to do next or how yout hink about the work tu do? [orange] i think you don't, i think you can't process it. it's too much. you know, it's like surreality on sueality. i think i try to ground myself in basic things, youlike i run more now surthan i ever did before, and i try to keep writing and spendi time with family, and try not to overthink it, really. [smith] yeah. [orange] it's a lot of information and a lot of weiformation t. [smith] do you have a bunch of ideas that you've got percolating now? [orange] yeah, i'm worki on a c. [smith] novels? [orange] yeah. [smith] any other aspect of art intert you? film? anything else that you think now, maybe, having had your eyes opened to this thwith the experience his book that you'd like to do? [orange] well, i to play piano, but that's sort of my own private enjoyment and it's, you know, it's just something that i like to do in my own time. [smith] yeah. i think that's-- so if you, when the time comes to write another book,

will it also be a native story? i mean, do you think that the next book will be vastly different from this one? [orange] yeah, i hope it'dierent. i certainly wouldn't wanna write the same thing. i don't knt it would look like to not write a native story. cause again, like i was saying before, ift wrote a story, then it would automatically be sort of a white male, if you don't include your background, thenet erased before you even start. sot will inclu my experience because that's my experience, and my characters will always speak through what i speak thugh because that's what feels real and true to me. [smith] right. [orange] so i don't think i'll ever write a book that somehow doesn't talk about it, cause i don't even really know what that looks like. [smith] you're still reading other people's work, of course. you're continuing to read as you do this work, for pleasure a get inspiration, right? [orange] uh huh. of good things that you read? [orange] uh huh.

[orange] i think i'm gonna mess her name up, but valeria luiselli, i just read, she has a forthcoming book called "archive of lost children" and it's absolutely fantastic. and my good friend "ar terese mailhothildren" haok that, we graduated together, [smith] from the mfa program. [o at the same time, and we sold our books within two weeks of each other, and hetibook made the new york s bestseller list here. and her book's called "heart berries." terese mailhot. that's an amazing book that came out this year. if you wanna be reading more nativvoices, i would go there. [smith] it's good that there are native voices, that we're beginning to see an adequate amount, if not enough. at least we're beginning to move more toward that beingat slice of literature, good. [orange] mm-hmm. [smith] right? i mean it's taken a while. i think one of the reasons that people were so moved by this book and were so impressed by this book

is it felt so different fromsew and maybe the time will come when it's not gonna be as different as it feels now. [orange] well, if you look at all the books that are coming out and getting a lot of attention, it's probably more diverse than it's ever been, as far as what the publishers are wanting to publish now. [smith] a reflection of the changing, as you talk about, the changing population of the country [orange] yeah. i [smith] a reflection of the cha think it's, you know,ut, i think it's inevitable that it's gonna keep going that same way. [smith] well i'm so happy for your success. it really is a delight to see somebody whose book is so good get the attention that he deserves and that it deserves, and i hope it opens the doors for you to do a whole bunch of other great things going forward. it's like discovering a real talent, a jewel. [orange] thank you. [smith] thanks for making time to be with us. [orange] thank you. [smith] tommy orange, thank you so much. (audience clapping) [smith] we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, to find invitations and an archive of past episodes.

[orange] there's a whole bunch of elements from my own life that if i told you a of them, if you said that's sad, it'd probably make me sad. like i lived through them and they were hard, abut i lived through th i'm okay, so-- other native people who've read my book, that's the one thing i haven't heard is that it's s. so i think people who have gone through hard experiences don't necessarily get the same takeaway. [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part byillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, the alice kleberg reynolds foundation, clairentnd carl stuart, and bygy.

>> tonight a special edition president trump and impeachment. this president believes he is above the law. >> a divided nation. >> it is a hoax and disgrace and embarrassment to our country. >> embattled esident. we go inside this moment with pulitzer prize winners maggie haberman with white house correspondent for "new york times" and historian jon meacham forio convers on the >> this is "washington week" fundin provided by -- >> there's aoment a moment of realizati realization, of