captioning sponsored b newshour productions, llc >> woodruff: good evening, i'm judy woodruff. on the newshour tonight... >> never before has a president engaged in a course of conduct that included all of the acts that most concerned the framersw druff: ...the xt phase is gaveled in. the u.s. house judiciary committee hears the constitutional arguments for and against impeaching president trump over his attempts to bendg a government for personal political gain. en, on the ground in london as the president meets with nato allies during a tense period for th70-year old military alliance. and, rolling back the rules.hu reds of thousands of l americans riosing their food a stampss the trump administration finalizes a major policy shift.

all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: ♪ ♪ moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us.

>> supporting social entrepreneurs and their solutions to the world's most skollfoundation.org. >> the lemelson foundation. committed to improving lives through invention, in the u.s. and developing countries. on the web at lemelson >> supported by the john d. and catherine t. monarthur founda committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more information at ma.org it >> andthe ongoing support of these institutions: >> this prograwas made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woodruff: the next phase of impeachmt comes to order. as nick schifrin reports, the partisan fight over the gal

rationale for removing president trump from office took center stage. >> the house judiciary committee will come to order. >> schifrin: it is the most rar hearing the ho representatives holds. and from the beginningthis impeachment hearing wa partisan. judiciary committee chairman jerrold nadler described president trump's actions as unprecedented and grave. >> never before has a president engaged in a course of conduct that iluded all of the acts that most concerned the framers. republican, doug c calleds top the hearing a sham, and accused president they've d sincemove a his election. >> you just don't like the guy. you didn't like him since november of 2016. so don't tell me this ut new evidence, and new things, and new stuff. we,ay have a new hearing ro and we may have new mics, and chairs that aren't comfortable. but this is nothing nes folks. thisd. whether president trump withheld military aid and a white house meeting with ukrainian president

volodymyr zelensky, in order to force zeleky to annoce investigations into democrat presidential candidate j20 biden and th election. >> mr. chairman and members of the committee... >> schifrin: today four legal scholars testified on whether president trump's actions were impeacble. the three called by democrats, said they were.ae migerhardt of the university of north carolina: >> if what we are talking abt is not impeachable, then nothing is impeachable. >> schifrin: pam karlan of stanford university. >> if you don't peach a president who has done what this president has done, then wt you're saying is, it's fine to go ahead and do this. >> schifrin: noah feldman of new harvard university: >> if we cannot impeach aus president who his office for personal advantage, we no longer live in a democracy. we live in a monarchy, or we live under a dictatorship.>> chifrin: republicans called george washington university's jonathan turley, who accused democrats of rushing to judgement without proving the president committed crimes.

>> i'm concerned lowering paucity of evidence and anit a abundance of anger. i believe this impeachment noto only failstisfy the standard of past impeachments, but would create a dangerous precedent for future impeachments. >> schifrin: for two months, the house intelligence committee 'svestigated presint tru actions, and last night released a final rert accusing the president of having "solicited the interferencef a foreign government, ukraine, in the 2020 u.s. presidential election." >> the president soliced assistance from a foreign government in order to assist his own reelection. that is, he used the power of his office-- no one else could possibly have used-- in order to gain personal advantage foris himself,rting the election. and that's precisely what the framers anticipated. >> schifrin: but turley called the evidence ambiguous, and said esident trump's asking zelensky on the phone to

investigate 20 or joe biden, wasn't proof of impeachable conduct. >> if you were to make a case to george washington that you could impeach over a conversation he had with another head of state, i expect his hair, his powdered hair, would catch on fire. >> schifrin: the house intelligence committee's report also accused president trump of having "ordered and implementedp a gn to conceal his conduct from the public and frustrate and obstruct the housr resentatives." the democratic-called professori said prent trump committed obstruction by ignoring and stifling robert mueller's inquiry into therump campaign's possible coordination with russia. >> the full scale obstruction oe those sus, i think, torpedoes separation of powers, and therefore, your on recourse is to, in a sense, protect your institutional prerogatives, and that includes impeacent. >> schifrin: turley argued the president hadn't committed obstruction, because democrats hadn't given him enoug to respond. >> you set an incredibly sho a period, demauge amount of

information, and when the president goes to court, y then impeach him. if you impeach a president, if you make a high crime and misdemeanor out of going to pocourts, it is an abuse or. it's your abuse of power. you're doing precisely what you are criticizing the president for doing. >> schifrin: the democratic- called witnesses also accused president trump of bribery, as understood by the constitution's writers. >> if you conclude that he asked for the investigation of vice president biden and his son for political reasons that is to aid his reelection then yes, you have bribery here. >> they targeted carl an for mentioning president trump's son and described the experts as irrelevant. republican mat gates: >> when you try to make joke out of referencing barron trump. it makes you loom mean.

it makes you look like you're attacking the minor child of the profit united states. let's see if we can get into the faskt all ofthe witnesses. if you have personal knowledge of a single materialact of the schiff report, please raise your hand. let the record reflect no personal knowledge of a single fact. >> no of not present today: president trump's lawyers.on unday, white house counsel pat cipollone released a refusing to appear that said," an invitation to an academic discussion with law profesinrs does not bo provide the president with any semblance of a fair process."60 today,miles from washington, president trump attended a nato heads of state summit in loon. alongside italy's prime minister, he called the hearingr unfair, and de himself innocent. >> the word impeachment is a dirty word, and it's a word that cas only supposed to be used only in special ons. high crimes and misdemeanors. in this case there was no crime whatsoever. not even a little tiny crime. >> today the committee starts consideration of the most awesome power constitutionally

vested in the house ta represenves. >> schifrin: in 1974 the house judiciary committee passed three articles of impeachment, including obstruction of justice political purposes.ent for >> our next witness is admiral bud ebney. schifrin: in 1998 the judiciary committee held two president clinton passing four articles of impeachment, including perjury, obstruction of justice, and using his office. today both sides compareds trumtions to clinton's and nixon's, but with different conclusions. >> president nixon abused domestic law enforcement to go after his political opponents he's asked a foreign country ton do that which it's sort of like a daily double. >> this is the narrowest impeachment in history. if you rush this impeachment, you're going to leave half the country behind. this isn't an impulse buy item. elected president of the united states. >> schifrin: for the pbs

newshour, i'm nick schifrin. >> woodruff: now, we take a closer look at today's hearing with lisa desjardins, who was in the room today. and our white house correspondent, yamiche alcindor. so, lisa, to you frst, looking at what happened today, talking to both sides, what do they think they accomplished? and do you now-- do we now have a better sense of what thesep aferlz ichment, if they go ahead, would look like? >> judy, flight i don't thk any-- either side believes that they might have made maor headway voters but they do both we did learn a little, i think, about democrats are considering es ofing for arti impeachment. i heard four charges, essentially-- one, that the president abused power. two, that he solricited feign irns ference. three, that he obstructed congress in this investigation about ukraine. and then, four, judy, the very interesting one, democrats today ask about obstruction of justice in regards to the mueller

report. and our reporting, highs and our producer saharas is khan, democrats on the committee have told us, representative deutsche, they are considering whether or not, but have not decided, if they will include mueller-related articles of impeachment. >> woodruff: so, yamiche, listening closely, watching closely, how did republicans onu thciary committee make the case for the president? >> well, even ough the white house did not have legal representation, what they had was republicans making their cases and defending the president in ways that the whito e supports. so, first, you had the republican witness, jonathan turley. he was making the case that this is, one, going toouickly, that this is an paesm hearing running out of tie and should be taken more cautiously. he also said there is no evidence of quid pro quo, that case.rats haven't proven the he also said bribery shouldn't

be discussed, even though democrats are making that case. and he made the case, going back to what lisa d about the mueller investigation, he pointed out that this is a white house and adinistration that made the mueller report public. so as a result, they are forthcoming. another thing they note, lawmakers who are close allies esident, they a making very, very fery defenses of the president.t we had mt gates of florida and jim jordan of ohio. and all making the case, that representave collins said, this is about tears in brooklyn going back to the 2016 election, and referencing the fat that there were people in hillary clinton's brooklyn campaign headquarters who were upset about trump winning and that the democrats want to unseat and remove a duly elected president. >> woodruff: lisa, back to you, i know you have tak the time to look back at the president bill clinton impeachment hearings in the contrat we're seeing now whouse. with what happened then. >> i watched many hours of thoae

gs, judy, and the differences are staggering. first of all, the tone. those impeachnt hearings in 1998, began with the republican, henry hyde, and the democrats john conyers, thanacking other, being respectful to each, and believe the prfs fair. could not be differentrom ere we are today, with both sides attacking each other and being quite personal today. also, i think the question is different. back then it was a question of they knew what the president had drng it was enougto impeach him. today there was more debate ovet xactly could be proven what the president did. if he did issue a quid pro quo. there seemed to be a lot ofas thought that wrong. the question is what could be proven abut that. third, the witnesses. it was all about law professors. in 1998 when th held the hearings with experts, there were nine witnesses, includingta mi generals, judges, who spoke to the chain of command and why they thought what the

president was doing was a problem for national security or the militaras it stakeholders who thought that parts of government could be affected, not juslaw professors speaking theoretically. >> woodruff: and to yamiche, you know, lisa just mentioned how that at pontitoday tgot personal in the way t members of congress were directing their questions to the law professors. what's been the reaction from the white house to all this? >> the white house is take is very seriously, and they were reacting in real time. i want to first read a tweet by white house press secretary stephanie gsham: >> so essentially, she's making the case that democrats were being super-partisan and tha ese witnesses were people who didn't like president trump from the very beginning. but it's really important to

also note that the personalness of this, let's listen to what stanford university professor pamela karlan said about the president's youngest son, barron trump. >> soings could do no wrong because the king's word was la. and contrary who what presidenta trumsaid, article two does not gi him the power to do anything he wants. and i'll just give yonu example at shows you the difference between him and a king, which is e constitution sayshere can be no titles of nobility. so whie the president can n his son, barron, he can't make him a barron. >> what you have is the professor making the case that the predent can't givhis son reritary noble title. she later apologied for that, that.g she regreed saying he also hopes president trump will apologize for some of the things he did.i while she was ticizing the president, it's important to note there were republicans reading into theoreca tweet

byelania trump.ha here'sshe wrote: you had the first lady defending her youngest chierbled the 13-year-old barron trump saying that was out of line. the vice p wsident said th really a new low for this witness. again, she apologized, but she was also criticizing president trump, essentially sying m going to apologize, but the president should apologize, t >> woodruff: interesting the first lady was pulled into this. lisa, finally, back to you. we know the committee took several breaks today to cast votes, sthere was more gog nowrt today beyond this judiciary commiearing. >> that's right. we're still waiting to see what the next steps ar. we dexpect more hearings. our reporting is there will be some next week. we just don't know when or who. but, yeahlyi reant to stress, there were other things to talk about that the house was doing, ironically oa bipfaartisn ion. look at the three bills that want house passed just in the

the one at the top, criminal justice reform for elderly prisoners in the federal system. this would allow prisoners of a certain age more opportunity for home release. second, there was a bill that was passed that would st of rectify a problem in the way citizenship is handled fo military kids and kids of state department employees who are overseas. that was passed. and then, thirdly, judy, something i think everyone cangr probably on but it has taken a long time to get through ld helps, a bill that wou sort of limit robocalls, give people and also carriers more dowers against robocalls. that passed, hat's going to the president. that happened just today while happening.hment hearing wa so congress is getting some sis, even they're not really talking about it much. >> woodruff: a lot of people are going to b t happy abouthe robocalls. >> year, i think so. reporting for usl day long at the capitol. yamiche alcindor, reporting from the white house. thank you both.

>> woodruff: and, ck in the studio with me are sol wisenberg.y he was depdependent counsel during the whitewater vestigation, in which he personally conducted grand jury questioning of president bill clinton. and, frank bowman is one of the exyrts who submitted testim on the definition of "high crimes and misdemeanors" to the house judiciary commtee during the clinton impeachment. he currently teaches at th university of missouri school of law and georgetown law, and is author of "high crimes and misdemeanors: a history of impeachment for the e of trump." hello to both the of you, frank bowman, sol wisenberg, good to have you both still with us tonight. lead letme start with you, sol wisenberg. the democrat had this hearing today in anffort to bolster their argument that the president has committed offenses that are worthy of removing him from office-- in other words that rise tthe level of

impeachment. how far did they go in making that case? >> not very far. i hink, at best, it's a draw. i think it was aiig mstake to limitlet republicans to one scholar, because that's tha scholar was jonathan y, who has been doing this a long time. he's very queaable. he's a pro. and he was able, because he was the only one, to give more of a flow in his answers and to have more time to respond. they really have two problems here, as i s it, based on what happened today. one, is that the hearings are runed, have been rushes. articles hen't been drawn up yet, intelligence report issued w hours fryer to the hearing. and, two, if yoe going to impeach a president for noncriminal high crimes andbe misdemeanors iter be big and it better be systemic, and i points.n't think they made those though in reality, each side is going to think they won. >> woodruff: frank bowman, how do you see it?

how well did the democrats do at make thirg case today? >> i say two things. one, i think it was an error for them to have a hearing of this the scope of their inquiry ist going to be, the scope of potential articles of impeachment, and the theories on which they were going to proceed. unfortunately, we started this hearing with uncertainty on that point, sort of a smorgz bother of possible impeachment offenses and that made it less effective that it might have been. that having been said, i think i disagr with sol to this extent: i think the experts called by the democrats made a very solid case, explaining, first of all, howhe constitution works with respect to impeachment; explaining in particular that what happened here was plainly an abusive power by the president of the united states; and, also, that his behavior e d respo the congressional investigation congress,hich is itself an

impeachable offense. he>> woodruff: you get at questionimented to ask both of you, and that is of the potential grounds for impeachment, potential rationale for impeachment, whether it's abuse of pow oer, abuthe office, whether it's bribery-- which came up today-- obstructn of justice, or obstruction of congress. did any-- did the arguments for any one of those, sol wisenberg, do you think, were those made more effectively than for the others? >> not particularly. again, you've got the country pretty evenly divided on this, and soy need something rely major to have happened. and i don't think that itid. >> if sol means you need something major to have happened in this hearing to have moved public opinion, i think ths probably right, and i think that public opinion is probably sufficiently well rooted, that nothing that happened here would change that.er on the oand fwhat sol means is there needs to be something big that happed that mr. trump did that would merit his impeachment, i thnk that

this-- the matrs pertaining to ukraine are plainly very large, indeed. we not only have an abuse of presidential power, but we have it in a context where he's misusing hso power for perl ends, and where he's misusing his power against a ulnerable country. he's misuse higz power in a way that dmages national security interest. that's pretty big stuff. >> woodruff: is what's lack here-- coming back to your point, sol wisenberg-- is it a lack ofc fats to back up these-- the case for any one of these potential articles? what is it that the democrats haven't provided yet? >> well, to quote professorin turley, i they need a larger foundation. clearly, president trump engaged in wrongdoing here. it was an abse of power. >> woodruff: in the ukraine matter. >> ybut it alone, i don't believe,, it alone, is d beachable, because he wo

in a position to say it's a one-off. and you can't just have five or six or seven grab bags. you have to have-- like iy sa it either has to be systemic or something that's obviously now, i think you may have that with the obstruction portion of the mueller report, but they don't even seem to know whetr or not they're going to do that. they seem to b in disarray, the democrats. >> woodruff: which is something they decide elier not to pursue. how do you see, that bowman, what is it the democrats would need to do to make a case, if ty were going to? >> oh, i think-- i think-- well, again, i think they've made e case. the argument from the republicans are really two. one say complaint about process, that thiotoo soon rushed and s forth and so on. but as a part of that process arnment, they're claim ago this is really, actually, professor turley's argument on behalf of the venezuela-- you can't proceed because investigation isn't yet complete. he doesn't really deny that if proven what happened in ukraine is abuse of power or

impeachable. he doesn't deny that. he said you haven't actually proven it yet. the reason all thes haven't been dotted and the "t's" crossed, the witnesses closest to mr. trump, the people white house of without having to rely on infences, truch ordered this or that, those people did not ce because trump ordered them not to. that in my viesan impeachable onls, but it's a point the republicans continual continually want to ally. they want to say the eidence is incomplet they refuse to conditional the fact that the evidence is incomplete because the president is refusing to produce it. using,druff: is ref which is something we discussed today, sol wisenberg, and we also talkeabout hw going forward, the democrats are going to need toml stre, in your view-- one of you were telling me this-- they're going to need to streamline the case they're. maki >> yand i think one of the ways

they can do that, strictly as a timatter of ta, i think their best bet is to have the ukraine incident, and have something from the obstruction sex of ther mueller re because, again, you don't have to have a crime there, but there was really serious misbehavior in the-- identified that really no one ian questithe obstruction section of the mueller report. and by the way, if mcgahn ev is allowed to testify-- >> woodruff: this is don mcgahn-- >> the former white house counsel, even though he's a very conservative person and was pro-trump, he will be a devastating witness, president.y, against the woodruff: well, it is-- it was a day of-- it was a icalerent day, not jur typ congressional hearing, but a day for us to go back, look at the constitutionlook at what the founders said, and what they intended. thank you both very much, frank bowman, sol wisenberg, we appreciate it. >> thanks. >> great pleasure to be here. thank you.

>> woodruff: in the day's other news, president trump headed home to the impeachment ght in washington after some final jabs at the nato summit in london. minister justin trudeau "two- faced" for mocking mr. trump to other leaders. still, the alliance declared unity, at least, on the issue of confronting russia.l weve the details, after the news summary. a new doubse today over a possible u.s.-china trade deal.r beijing sharplicized the u.s. congress over a bill blasting china's masntion of ethnic muslims. the bill threatens sanctions. chins foreign miniarned the move could affect overall relations, includi the ongoing trade netiations. >> ( anslated ): china maintains a consistent position on the trade iue. we believe only the spirits of equality and mutual respect can help us reach a mutually beneficial deal.ul but no one sunderestimate our resolution to safeguard

naonal sovereignty, securi any attempt to hamper china's development using issues of hong kong and xinjig is just wishful thinking. >> woodruff: the chinese also objected to president trp suggesting yesterday that a trade deal might be delayed untiafter the 2020 presidential election. today, mr. trump today said the trade talks re going very well. meanwhile, mr. trump's trade agreement with japan's prime minister shinzo abe will take effect in january, after it won approval in the japanese parliament today. the deal was agreed to in september, easing japaneseon tariff.s. farm products. further talks may address a u.ss tariff on mported from japan. top ofcials in iran urged todathat jailed protesters be treated withhat they called slamic mercy." the jailings came during an crackd demonstrations over gas price hikes. in a televised speech, president hassan rouhani claimed again the u.s. hped foment the protests.

but he said some who took part, were innocent.tr >> (slated ): those who were not guilty in this regard, or those whose crime is not major, they have to be treated with mercy and they should be released. >> woodruff: separately, supreme neleader ayatollah ali kha said protesters who were killed should be considered martyrs if the unrest. role in instigating he urged that their families be compensated. amnesty international says at least 200 people were kied by security forces. the european union announced today it will likely miss its target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. the bloc has been aiming for a 40% reduction by 2030, compared with 1990 levels. today, e.u. environmental officials said the cut will be closer to 30%. back in this country, the roman catholic bishop of buffalo, new york resigned over his handling of alleged sexual misconduct by

clergy. bishop richard malone said the by someone else. better served the vatican had just finished an investigation into the abuse allegations. the buffalo diocese is named in 220 lawsuits over the claims. u.s. attorney general william barr drew fire today for his latest comments on policing. in a speech tuesday, he said americans should stop protestin agailice, and show them more respect. he warned that those who do not back local officers, could wind up doing without their services. >> they ha to start showin more than they do, the respect and support that lawnforcement deserves. and if commuties don't give that support and respect, they might find themselves without the police protection they need. >> woodruff: barr did not specify which "communities" he meant. but, civil liberties and human a

righivists charged he was targeting minorities and others who protest police brutalitynd racially motivated misconduct. georgia's republican governor tapped business executive kelly loeffler today, to fu.s. senate seat. she replaces fellow republican johnny isakson, who has parkinson's disease and is resigning at month's end. congressman doug colns also wanted the senate seat. he's one of president trump's biggt supporters. as the senate gets a new member, the u.s. house is losing another veteran. democrat denny heck of washington state announced today he is retiring.ai hehis work on the house intelligence committee and the impeachment inquiry had worn him down. ctck is the ninth house democrat not to seek re-en, along with 20 republicans. former president jimmy carter is back homin plains, georgia tonight, after his latest hospital stay. he h been treated for a

urinary tract infection. just last nth, he had surgery to relieve pressure on the brain from bleeding, caused by a fall. mr. carter is 95 years old. and, on wall street, stocks recouped some of their losses from recent days. the dow jones industrial arage gained 147 points to close at 27,649. the nasdaq rose 46 points, and the s&p 500 added 19. still to come on the newshour: nato at a crossroads-- president trump meets with allies at a contentious moment. the new trump administration rule that will bar hundreds of thousands of people from receiving food stamps. and on the hunt for one of earth's surprising climate change winners, wild mushrooms.

>> it was intended to be a meeting to celebrate a critical military alliance. but as we report omondon, it was instead division on display >> reporter:aders may have been marching to the beat of different drummers yesterday. all 29 fl in line for this morning's family photo, the official start to celebrate the alliance's 70th anniversary. but prending nato is one happy family was never going to be easy after yesterday public airing of grievances and this private conversation, caug on camera, between the leaders of the u.k., france, the netherlands and canada, in which prime minister justin trudeau appears to mock the ent. >> his staff's jaws dropped. >> reporter: they may not been the only jaws to drop, as the

president openly questioned whether nato should defend countries that don't pay their fair share on defense, while adding canada was only semi- delinquent.th afternoon, the president was asked about the canadian leader's comments during a meeting with german chancellor angela merkel. >> well, he's two-faced. and with trudeau, he's a nice guy. i find him to be a nice guy, but the truth is, i called him out on the fact that he's not paying 2%, and i guess he's not very happy about it. >> reporter: trudeau was asked about that candid moand president trump's 2% refrain: >> i've had a number of good conversations with the president over the course of this, this, this day and yesterday. i have a very good relationship team.ident trump and his this is a concern the unimed states legely has that every country needs to step up in different ways. >>ofeporter: 2% is the amoun their g.d.p. that nato countries committed to spend onse and weapons, like this armored vehicle nato has odisplay,

when russia annexed the ukrainian rritory crimea back in 2014. the 29 membecountries have five more years to reach the target. a handful of them already have. today, the president dined with them >> the two percenters are good friends of mine. >> reporter: the german chancellor was not invited to the lunch, but the two had a very civil conversation. >> it's been a little tough for the united states. we've had a very bad imbalance for many, many years for decades, actually, and we're discussing that right now. >> reporter: president trump also had an unscheduled meeting with turkey's prime minister recep tayyip erdogan. after an october phone call, mr. trump announced a u.s. pullout n fromthern syria, turkey invaded, then mr. trump threatened wh economic ruin if he went too far.

>> we pulled our soldiers out d took over the oil. we have soldiers where the oil is. d that's the way i like it. and they can police their own border. and that's what they'rdoing. they can use other countries if they wt, if they want to spend the time and energy. >> reporter: after two days and well over two hours of impromptu press conferences, the president eeted that he'd done enough and canceled a formal news conference. as he left london, the wte house press office released a triumphant video record ofis nato trip, the president wished everyone safe travels. and perhaps, good riddance. for the pbs newshour, i'm ryan chilcote in watford, england. >> late today as the president flew home to the u.s. he tweeted:

>> woodruff: the trump administration is making some big changes to the food stamp today, the u.s. department of agculture finalized a new ruleen expected tfood stamps for nearly 700,0 people.ow now as snap, the food stamp program helps feed moren than 36 millericans. the new measure is the first of three initiatives to c those benefits. the administsction, which is ing back the size of social safety net programs, says the changes will save the governmenl billions of s. amna nawaz has the sto. enforces tougher workew rule requirements. states also will have le flexibility to exempt able- bodied adults without dependents or childn from those work requirements. the other proposed changes will af pfect even mople, dropping roughly three mlion

people from getting food aid when all is said and done. in announcing e latest rule, agriculture secretary sonny perdue said he is trying to restore the system to "provide assistance throu difficult times, not a way of life." elaine waxman studies this program and has done her own analyses for the non-partisan urban institute. to the newshour. >> thank you for having me. >> nawaz: so the argument from the administration is the economy is doing very well, it' improved dramatically, unemployment is at historic lows. many of the able-bodied adults without children or dependents don't need this assistance anymore. what do you say to that? >> it's true the eonomy has improved a great deal, but not for all people, and not in all places. and national or eveevn state unemployment statistics can mask a great deal of variation in opportunity. states have had the ability to applefor waivers from thse work requirements and time limits when they felt there were

insufficient jobs, and it will be much harder to do that now. some of the individuals affected by this change are among the most vulnerable. they have very, very low incomes. they often work in unstabl jobs. and unlike the characterization of the secretaryd toay, they don't use snap as a way of life. they turn to snap duing periods of unstable employment. and the vast majority of them work when thecan. >> nawaz: just to clarify a point here, the definition of able-bodied adults this willf only at single adults. is that your understanding? >> so the term "ab-bied adults without dependents" is an interesting one. it is single adults t there not all able bodied. we know from research many may have physical and mentmental health issues that create barriers for work. and th may be without dpentses, but that doesn't mean they don't have children.e they maynonyocustodial parents, and whenever they're struggling we know they have provide support for those to

children. >> nawaz: i do want to ask you about the mbers. you tack a look at the last 20 years of the enrollment in those food stamp programs-- take a look now from 2000 to 2019-- it is safe to say that it isic still the number today than it is back in 2000--i although it a peak in 2015. what's important to underand about these numbers? have haven't we come down to prerecession numbers? >> so the first thing that'sn important toderstand is that we still have more than 37 million people who struggle with fo insecurity, despite a better economy. so that's tha suggests there's stale very significant need for support, even as many people are le to regain employment. en don't quite know what the employment chas are, but we know that many people may have a criminal justice record m the it more difficult to get employment. they may, in fact, have limited

education, may only have a highd schoploma or less. the unemployment rate for those people is not the same. and so we know in general in the last 20 years, the labor market is much more unstable. there's been a rise of gig economy, of people working multiple jobs, and i think that's reflected in theumbers we see today. >> nawaz: so youe saying just because people have a job doesn't netssarily mean tha they are tiebl provide for themselves and still might need fod? >> absolutely. and we know many people on snap do work. >> nawaz: let me ask ybout the waivers now. you mentioned not all communities are the same. states could issuehem so people could continue to qualify for food ncsis what do we know about where they're issued? >> so the waivers have historically been issued in many different pats of the country. about three dozen states have us e thether recently across the state or at least in the administration will now

limit the ability of those waivers to be povided unless the unemployment rate for 24 months is 6%, and, also, if its above 20% of the national average. that might not sound that dramatic, but hers the point: 24-month average means that if unemployment shifts rapidly, states won't be able to respond to that. so we're concerned that there may be scenarios where anrea uld have an employment rate of, say, 9%, and still not qualify for a wiver. >> nawaz: let me ask you about two of the other rules we e mentioned earlier, becathis new rule goes into effect in april. there are two more potential rules on the books. on basically does what they that they say allow households, with certain incomes or assets to qualify. the househo income would be $50,000 a year for a family of four. that is 200% of th poverty

level. or households that have more than $2,250 in total assets.be that member higher for disabled adults. that is one rule that's proposed at the moment. ere's a second rule as well that could come into efect, and that would just cut the overall food stamp budget. would cut it by $4.5 billion from the program over five years. they do that by adjusting the eligibility standards. e when you look at tho proposed rules, in conjunction with the new rule today, what would be the combined effect of those rules? >> that's a really important question. when we look at them individually, they may be a year we've had three major proposed changes. and we estimate that somewhere aroundio 3.7 mipeople will lose benefits. and that's not including themi almost onllion children that will lose a direct link to the free lunch program at school. that is something that the administration has acknowledged is a consequence of the rule you

mentioned, changing eligibility. >> nawaz: very briefly, the administration says this will saveoney. we are saving billions of dollars by doing this. isn't that true? >> i think it wilsave money. >> and wouldn't challenge that. in the short term, and perinhaps he snap program. what we know about snap is that it reduce food insecurity, it reduce poverty, and that people who participate nin sap may have lower health care expenditures. with all things bei equal, if fewer people are on snap, we can expect those poor outcomes tocr se. we may see increased expenses in the medicaid program, changes over the long term. so to save oney say relativet. concep glawl elaine waxman of the the urban institute, thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> woodruff: and we'll be back mushroom hunters are sprouting

up, and dealing with the effects climate change. het first, take a moment t from your local pbs station. it's a chance to offer your support, which helps keep programs like ours on the air. >> woodruff: for those stations staying with us, jeffrey brown sat down with one of the nation's preeminent biographers, robert caro, back in april. caro, who has profiled figures from robert moses to lyndon b. johnson, has written a memoir about what he does. it's titled simply, "working." >> brown: "power reveals"-- two words on the wall of an office in midtown manhattan. >> you do all the research and then you sit here and you say, what is this book about? >> brown: this is the inner sanctum of one of the nation's leading historians, robert caro,

he's learned over thanessons six decade career. >> i learned it book b as i went along i said, well, i thk i've learned some stuf and i ju want to pass it along, not as advice, but as one reporters, you know, people who are trying to find out the truth about things. >> brown: caro began his working reporter includingd '60s as a "newsday." his first book, "the power broker", published in 1974, chronicl how an unelected official, master builder roberth moses, bece most powerful figure in new york and shaped the city's destiny. since 1977, caro has been writing "the years of lyndon johnson," four books have been published and the fifth and final volume has been his labor of love for 10 years. along the way, he's won two pulitzer prizes and two national book awards, and gained a >> you know, when i was a newspaper man, i remember i

hated having to write an article while there was still questions i wanted to ask. when i started to do books, i just started to say, i don't want to start writing until i've got all my questions answered, d it takes a long time. >> but do you ever have all your questions answered?o. >> (laughs) >> brown: now, at 83thcaro is out omething different, a book of new essays and earlier pieces that take us behind the scenes of his work. it's called "working: researching, interviewing, writing." one insight: the man considereda a leading bier doesn't think he's writing biographies at all. >> i never had any interest in telling the life of a great man. i ink of them as studies i political power. >> brown: and what does power mean tyou? >> political power is what shape, it's got such an influence on all our liveshat people don't think about, from

social security and medicare, to where is a bridge located or a highway located, what happened it's what government can do for fopeople, both for good an ill.: >> brod so: the unelected but hugely powerful robert moses.sh ing the nation's largest city for more than 40 years without any public accountability. and lyndon johnson, rising from dirt-poor ranching country in texas, first elected to the house of representatives,n congressat caro shows was a rigged election, a 'master of the senate' as majority leaderpr anident who forged major civil rights and other legislation before being broughb dothe catastrophe of vietnam. caro acknowledges his author wife, ina, the only person who helped research his books. and the couple uprooted life in new york to live in the hill country of texas to better understand the place and people who shaped johnson.

>>u said to ina, my wife, ' know, i'm not understanding these people, and therefore i'm not understanding lyndon johnson.to we're goinave to move here'. ina said, she lovesrance, she said, 'why can't you do a biography of napoleon?' but we moved there. >> brown: in the l.b.j. library in austin, caro did, as much as humanly possible, what an earlier editor had told him: "turn every page"-- that is, look at every document, even if it seems irrelevant. only years later does the writing begin. >> i write a lot of drafts by hand on this white leg pad, and write a lot of drafts on the typewriter. >> brown: an old smith corona. >> they stopped making that smith corona 25 years ago. >> brown: in an adjacent room, just some of the hundreds of files of interviews, clippings and notes gathered over the years. and more insightnto how caro works. stenographer's notebook, and myt

rule is type it up every night before i go to bed, no matter how tired i am, because r want to remembhe expression on the face. >> brown: the expression on the ce? so, that kind of detail. >> yeah, yeah, i think you learn >> brown: all togeer: a kind of master class in interviewing, itreporting, researching, g. and, perhaps most relevant to today, how to think about facts antruth. >> i'm constantly aware i don't really know, there is no truth. it's jt ridiculous. but there are, let's say you wantedo find out how lyndon johnson ran the senate as a majority leader. the more facts about that, the moreou find out what did he with the unanimous consentdi agreements, whhe put on committees, how did he change the seniority system, and a thousand facts. the more of those facts you get, if you just describe the facts, the closer you're coming to

whever truth there is. >> brown: are you concerned today watching what's happening with facts being contested everywhere you go? >> yes. i don't think there's anything more serious for a democracy than what's happening right now. where, for many reasons, we're losing belief in facts and truth. >> brown: what's lost? >> well, if you have no confidence that anything is true or correct, what does a democracy base its actions on?ro >>: robert caro's book, "working" is out now. as to volume five of his epic b.j. biography? we saw the final pages, but only at distance. caro td us we too will have to wait. for the pbs newshour, i'm jeffrey brown in new york.

>> woodruff: mushroom hunters have fanned out across the forest floor for hundreds of years searching for what can be lucrative and delicious finds. but do climate change have an impact on these fungi? from the cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university, melanie porter found weather change isn't allad news for these foragers. >> it's like i said, it look ke it's a chellat mushroom. >> reporter: a delicacy found on the forest floor only a mushroom ver would treasure. >> these things you need like, a saw. >> reporter: the arizona mushroom society has a mission to provide educational and scientific opportunities for members to learn about mushrooms in a hands on environment.>> low the spores. >> reporter: the society hosts dozens of workshops throughout the year.

>> this could turnout to be four hour five hour hike down the mountain. >> reporter: members also have the opportunity to trek to areas acrossrizona to look for precious fungi. >> it's the adult idea of an easter egg hunt. >> reporter: mushrooms can be usedn teas, broths and medicinal remedies, but it takes a careful eye to determine which are poisonous and which are safe to e. this group knows enough about mushroom speci to understand not to eat them before they're properly identified. >> this one i believe are calling brusilla achio gloka. >> reporter: and these mushrooms also bring balance to th forest. >> the ecosystem, we need the mushroomjust like the bees need the flowers. the mushrooms provide the mycelium for the trees. >> reporter: fabian monje is a foray leader for the arizona mushroom society and he's seen first hand how mushrooms refle a changing climate. >> mushrooms come and go with the seasonnd how much rain we get.

we had a great winter, we could have had a very productive summer if it had continued but you know you can't he both times. >> reporter: and while these mushroom hunters see climate ning locally, research shows that globally,ad fungi coult to the changing climate. one study from spain found that wild mushrooms thrive when there are changes in temperatures anda moistuoss a growing season. in fact they found climate change had no negative long-term effect on mushrooms, it actually helped produce more mushrooms by increasing their fruiting and growing season.de >> undersif the gills are >> reporter: based on the weather in this part of arizona, foragers said this swas decent, but not the best. >> se years are definitely spottier than others it has not been the juiciest of years. >> reporter: the study found that these forest gems do well in areas with mo rain at the beginning of the season and warmer temperatures at the end, like some arizona motains. >> every monsoon season is different in different aree . but that t a very small

frame and a very small window. >> reporter: mushroom hunters are taking advantage of this window of opportunititti the trails all around the state. they're hopeful that the mushroom crop will continue to be fruitful. >> so we are just hoping that our season isn't over ye when the temperatures start to dr the mushroom hide. >> reporter:ut they're prepared to say goodbye to these urlicacies until next season. for the pbs newsi'm melanie porter with cronkite news in tucson, arizona. >> woodruff: who knew, a benefit from climate change. there you have it. and that's the newshour for tonight. i'm judy woodruff.al foof us at the pbs newshour, thank you and see you soon. >> major funding for the pbs b newshour haseen provided by: >> you have no idea who might

have put that package there? >> no, sir,. >> did you plabts a bomb in >> richard, this is a capital crime here. >> my son is innocent. >> do you have any case agast me? >> i report the facts. >> you've ruined this man's life. >> i didn't do this. >> richard jewell, a clnt eawood firm, rated "r" "p" >> consumer cellular believes that wireless plans should reflect the amount of talk, text we offer a variety-se. contract wireless plans for people who use their phone a little, a lot, or anything in between. to learn more, go to consumercellular.tv >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and individuals. >> this program was made possible by the corporation for

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llo everyone and welcome " anpour and company." here's what's coming up. we have a min dispute, i think we'll probabrk be able to t out. >>president trump in london comes into contact with a combative french presidena macron ove, isis, and turkey. we discuss and we hear from the advisor to the turkish president. plus -- >> in every one of us, there's a sense of anxiety and fear. >> protests in iran. scores are dead. we asked two prominent iranian exiles. human rights activi. >> and they have to tell everyone. everyone listening and seeing. this is the death of every

child. >> afilmmaker