captioning sponsored by newshour proctions, llc >> woodruff: good evening, i'm judy woodruf on the newshour tonight... >> i am asking our chairmen to proceed with articles of impeachment. >> woodruff: ...one step closer. speaker of the house nancy pelosi directs democrats to draft formal charges against president trump. then, broken justice. a conversation with ricky kidd. the focus of the lest newshour podcast, freed after 23 years of incarceration for a crime he didn't commit. and... >> ♪ people try to put us down talkin' bout my generation ♪ >> woodruff: ...more than 50 years after stting the who, legendary guitarist pete townshend shows no signs of ending the tour. t>> i feel very, very luc have what do they call it? a patron.

ncd the patron is my audie what i do has worked for them and continues work for them. and i want to keep doing it if i can. >> woodruff: all thaand more on tonight's pbs newshour. un >> major fding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> and by the alfred p. sloan foundation. losupporting science, tech, and improved economi performance and ncial literacy in the 21st century. >> carnegie corporation of new york. supporting innovations inoc education, dtic engagement, and the advancement of international peace and security. at carnegie.org.

>> and with the ongoing support of these institutions: and individuals. >> this program was de b possibthe corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woouff: the next stage of the impeachment process against president trump is at hand. word came today that the presentation of evidence will g ke place on monday, with the formal craft articles of impeachment to follow immediately. congressional correspondent lisa desjardins begins our coverage. >> desjardins: at a capitol podiumeserved for the most formal, or profound, moments,

the house speaker made her announceme. >> the facts are uncontested. the president abused power for his own personal political benefit at the expense of national security. sadly but with confidee and humility, with allegiance to our founders and heart filled th love for america, today i am asking our chairman to proceed th articles of impeachment. >> desjardins: speaker pelosisa the president's actions but hours after returning from a nato summit in europe, president trump had just a few words about impeachment... >> desjardins: he reax. loquacious on twitter, writing earlier in the day, "if you are going tompeach me, do it now, fast" saying he wants to move to a senate trial. and on the senate floor, a key player in any future trial, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell joined the president in lashing out at democrats' process. >> american families desbeve er than this partisan

paralysis where decrats sess over impeachment and obstruct everything else. >> desjardins: house republican leader kevin mccarthy id democrathave not proven their case. >> that this is so divisive, you need something overwhelming, you need something compelling and it doesn't meet the criteria. the party means more t than the country. >> desjardins: republicans hav pushed the idea that democrats are acting out of anger, leading to another remarkable moment toy. as pelosi left hereekly news conference, a reporter asked if she hates the president. >> i don't hate anybody. >> desjardins: she stopped in her tracks and firmly said impeachment is not personal. >> this is about the constitution of the united states and the facts that lead to the president's vio of his oath of office. as a catholic i resent your

using the word hate. comes to words likthat.hen it >> desjardins: partisan lines and powerfulentiments will keep mounting. next, the house judiciary coayittee plans a hearing mo to look at the evidence for impeachment, and the 300-page report about that ev from the house intelligence committee. >> woodruff: and now to help walk us through what's next r congress and its impeachment inquiry, lisa joins me. so lisa, as you said, they're tolding this hearing on monday. how is it goine different? what do we expect? >> let's talk about this. this could bthe most substantial hearing that we see before articles of impeachment come out. to see. the presentation of the democrats impeachment report from the house inelligence committee. there will be witnesses who will be staff counsel, republican and democratic counsel. we don't know yet how many or exactly who. and both sides, republicans and democrats, wilboth be able to question those witnesses. essentially, judy, it' as as i prosecuting team, the counsel

for the democrats, will present their evidence that charges should be brought, impeachment charges, and thethe defen , the republican counsel, will try and present their arguments that, no, there't enough evidence for impeachment. >> woodruff: so do we know, they're going to move ahead, so do we know the timing of when the full house would vote? >> no, we don't, but am told that the announcement today besn't change the timing. they still seem e on track for a possible committee vote on articles of impeachments soon as next week and a possible full house vote the following wk.e i don't know that it is set in stone yet, but that seems to ber thk that they remain on. one big question of course, judy, is whether the president will participate. if he decides to,and hes until tomorrow night to make that decision pe the democrats' deadline, thatill change the time line. he can ask fr witness, all of those things. will he want the par i spoke to kevin mccarthy to ask him personally, will the

president participate? mccarthy doesn't usually say yes or. no he indicated to me he doesn't think the president should participate. to me that's a strong signal that theresident is leaning toward no. >> woodruff: perhaps he's recommending it. >> he di't say that. i know he's talking to the president. so i don't know who is recommending what, but he's certainly gauging the temperature at the white house very closely. >> wdruff: what about the democrats? how unified are they on this? we assume relblicans are st all against it, but what about that? >> that's ght. if you talto democra, the most interesting group are those moderates. there are 31 democrats who are sp districts that the president won. e to several of those offices today. where they're at is they'reg wait see exactly what is in these articles ofti impeachment, me offices told me it is very possib that they could vote yes on some articles of impeachment, those moderate democts, and no ti other es of impeachment when they hit the house floor. nancy pelosi needs 218 votes for any article of impeachment.

we'll have to see how they draft them to see if she will t those votes on all of the articles that they present. republicans i'm watching closely, too, we'll see. if public opinion changes, some republican votes could peel off, as well. >> woodruff: what she needs issi le majority? >> that's correct. at this point the standard in the senate is much higher. at this point it's a simple majority. >> woodruff: lisa desjardins, thank you. >>you're welcome. >> oodruff: in the day's other news, a federal prosecutor has reportedly undercuclaims that an f.b.i. investigation the 2016 trump campaign and its alleged ties to russia set-up. he washington post" and others say u.s. attorney john durham found no evidence that u.s. intelligence agencies planted false leads. attorney general william barr had hand-picked durham. a separate review, by the justice department's inspector general, has also reportedly

found the f.b.i. probe was justified. it is due out monday.p president trpealed today to the u.s. supreme court to shield his financial records from congressions. oversight. ouse committees subpoenaed the records from mr. trump's accounting firm. the president is also asking the n urt to keep his tax returns from prosecutorsw york. thyunited states charged to that iran may have killed more than 1,000 people in a crackdown on protes. the special u.s. representative for iran, briahook, cited reports from inside iran and intelligence analysis.at he white house, president council ambassador calledity for international pressure on iran. >> it's horrible situation. hr's something tt is going to be a big scandalghout the world very soon. th're killing a lot of people. and they're arresting thousands

of their own citizens in a brutal crackdown in recent wks becausthey're protesting. >> woodruff: the president would not confirm or deny repos that he might send thousands more troops to the middle east to counter iran. the u.s. justice department is accusing russian cyber gang of stealing at least $100 million from banks and other institutions worldwide. a 10-count indictment today charged two alleged leaders of a group known as "evil corp." they remain at large, but officials announced a $5 million reward for one of the men-- the most ever for an accused cyber- criminal. in france, union workers staged one of their biggest strikes in decades, largely bringinndtravel to a sill. tens of thousands of people turned out in paris and elsewhere. they protested president emmanuel macron's move to t standardize mon 40 existing pension plans.

>> ( translated ): i think the majority of people are against macron pensions scheme, which wiot lead us anywhe. we will end up with a pensio that is equivalent to at of someone beginning their career, even when having wor years. that does not make sense.e >> woodruff: s the paris demonstrators set fires and police answered with tear gas. it was unclear how long the strike might last. a grim report today on the globalesurgence of measles. the world health organization opsays nearly 10 million were infected last year. more than 140,000 died-- most of them, young children who had not beenaccinated. both figures were up sharply from 2017, and the w.h.o. says the numbers are far worse this year. it cites opposition to vaccines as a main factor. back in this country;ic repu congressmanom graves of georgia has announced he will not run for re-election.

he said he wants to spend moreit timehis family. the six-term lawmaker will be e 21st house republican to t retire aft current term of congress. on wall street today: the dow jones industrial average gained 28 points to close at 27,677. the nasdaq rose four points, and the s&p 500 also added four. and, the holiday season is officially under way in washington, with the lighting of the national christmas tree. e president and first lady did the honors this evening, in of thousands of guests a a line-up of musical performers. the annual tradition dates back to 1923. still to come on the newshour: lawmakers respond to house speaker nancy pelosi's direction to draft articles of impeachment. legendary guitarist pete townshend on having the same gig r more than 50 years. broken justice-- sitown with ricky kidd, an innocent man

freed from prison after more than two decades. and comedian nick krolgives his brief but spectacular take on animating adolescence in the show "big mouth." t woodruff: ithe span of two- and-a-half month house impeachment inquiry has taken testimony, produced a report, and examined the legal grounds for impeaching a president. now, as the house works toward drafting charges against president trump, we get two more perspectives tonight on what to expect next. first, i spoke with representative doug collins of georgia, the judiciary committee's ranking republican.

congressman doug collins, thank you very much for join us. w that we know that democrats in the house of representatives are going to draft articles of impeachment, they're in the nsjority, do the republi have a plan for stopping this? >> well, i don't think we have plan for stothing it. k this is a culmination today, and i'm not sure why there waysuch a production b speaker pelosi that now they're going to write articles of impeachment. anyone who has bloen folng this knows this has been the plan all along. the big question now is how do theyryo it in the judic committee? do they speed it up? do they bypass a lot of the rules? and frankly, sad to say, judy, i'm sitting here on this night telling you i don't know whereth past forward is. we know there's going to be a couple of presentatio of stports on monday, but hat we really don't know. for us to bepared, but thisss has not been a surprise. >> woodruff: they say this is going to be about presenti the evidence, but what i want to ask you is do you dispute the factsm that the deocrats have laid out, and i'm asking you because yesterday the law professor, thl

republicans d on the judiciary committee, jonathan turley, said thatt presid trump's calls to the ukrainian president, and i'm quoting, "was anything but perfect and congress had a legitimate reason to scutinize it." >> well, that'jonatha turley's interpretation. he was our witness. i find it different. wrong with the call. i think that was brought out in the hearing over and over and over again.t at b. turley said it was a paucity of errors. there was not very much. there "wafer-thin" was the word i think. nothing wrong witt went on was and how it went about. we don't have a problem talking about the bstance of the issue and how it wynn about. i think that's going to be the problem for the democrats going forward, because remember, judy, they can do what they want to in s.e house of representati they have to votes to manipulate, that but when it goes to the senate or the american people, they have to convince the american people that there is a, criat there was something actually committed. tangible in real-wod term, not in philosophical terms of act

temperature knicks meeting. >> woodruff:9 impeachment of a president about how congress seehs the oat of office, whether there's been abusof power, what the framers, what the founders put in the constitution? te well, it is, and what was interesting is yay, again, this shows you how... the acts this will irst impeachment in which, if they go forward, where there was not agreeme on basic facts. in nixon and in clinton, muck democrats and republicans, there was a commitment on basic facts. it came from the report that was issued on this. we don't have agreement on facts. we have an agreement. they say there was actual quid pro quo, there were witnesses. no, there wasn't. they have witnesses who say believe or presume that the. >> given to us because i heard it second-hand was thatwas holding back because of a meeting, but we have otherswith direct knowledge who said. no we also have five direct meetingsfter the aid was pu on hold, five meetings in whiche nsky with the president, one

with a phone call, three with ambassadors, and one with a senator and one wih vice president pence in which two, the last two meetings, with the senators and with viesident pence is after they found out money was being held and there was never a conwenection bet aid and doing something. we have very much a disputed fact. i think in thase pt congresses have relied on actual crimes. clinton liedxon committed the crime of conspiracy for a break-in. there is noing there that the can put their hands on. that was part of the problem yesterday in the hearing. >> woodruff: but when there are as many dots as there are, u if you want te that analogy, you know, isn't the conclusion going to be that if d ere was discussion about withholding aid d was withheld for several months and there had been conversations, which the president himself acknowledges, saying to the ukrainian leader, i want you to investigate the bidens, what are you left with? d well, what he s was again, we go back to this, this was a telephone call happened the day

after the mueller report here on the hill. at that time you and i actually spoke about that whole report. there was very much of a frustration. the conversation was can you help us investigate this, what just happened, what torcoe our try up for so long. i appreciate what you're saying about trying to connect dots,ou but ifo, you become like one of the law professors who say, well if you see all thesefe facts and you there is a problem, or you infer, then yu go forward onntmpeach that's a very slippery wrong slope to stand on because this country, the average american outside of d.c. understanding dew point. -- due process. they understand frness. they don't understand i can infer you may have done something wrong so we'll convict you f: it. >> woodret me ask you about something else. we heard from the democrats yesterday that they e considering widening this impeachment inquiry to include the artle, theecond part of the mueller report having to do with obstruction of tice. in that we saw ten episodes they laid out where the president may have, euld hav obstructed justice.

and again, the report does not exonerate he president. it says the decision is up to congress. does tt strengthen what the democrats are trying to do or not? >> no, the two parts to that, one, i believe most democrats are ready to move on from the mueller reportul it was paiexperience for them. they put everything into it and it didn't turn out as conclusiv as they wanted. to but i think it's interesting, go back to the mueller hearing, and the democrats tried to walk through each of these points that they showed, that they saw in part two, at the end of it, mr. mueller would agreeith various pts, at thend he wod say, i don't agr with your conclusion. i don't agree with your outcome. he made that statement over and er and over again. it's going to e very hard to walk back mueller's oords when he disagreed with the end of the conclusion of obstruction. >> woodruff: conllessman doug s of georgia, thank you very much. >> glad to be here, judy. always gooto be with you. >> woodruff: now from a perspective from a democrat on the judiciary committee, we're presentativ madeleine dean of pennsylvania. congresswomannk dean, tou

very much for joining us. are you confident at this point akgiven what spe pelosi has committee committee to go ahead and craft articles of impeachment that there is enough evidence the, enough proof that artles of impeachment are warranted? >> i am. i'm sad t confident that we have enough. the evidence is undeniable. you'll nice it's also undenied, and it is damning. the president coerced a foreign leader to try to intervene in our election for his own personal and political gain. there could be nothing more grave than that kind of an assault on our election integrity. as the professor said yesterday, it will make us all less freepl some there isty of evidence. but i find it puzzling that the republicans or the administration say, oou don't have enough evidence. in the fae of the president not answering multiple subpoenas,

extraordinary obstruction by this president and everyone in his administration, so if the republicans want more evidence, they ought to go over to the white house and sayo the president, answer lawful subpoenas, let everyone testify, clear your name, be part of the process. you notice they're not doing any of that. >> woodruff: at this point there isno evidence new yor sign that they will do that, although they have time certainly to come forward before this process works its way forward.oo >>uff: congresswoman dean, we just heard again congressman collins, the rankan republn the judiciary saying, as you just noted, the evidence is not therethat it's all conjecture, that it's assumption in so many words. how is it that demra see clear, compelling evidence and republicans say it just doesn't exist? >> i think they're not saying it doesn't exist. they're not speaking to the evidence. you have seen them pound the cess, over process, pro

process, due process. in fact, thiis offering the president due prohecess. not taking advantage of it. and so there's plenty of and so i don't understand what mr. collins is talking about. you noance they don'tto ta about that phone call. they don't want to talk about a president holding up $391 million of congressionally appropriated aid to a country that isnder attack, assault, t d invasion by russi you'll notice tat happens here is that it weakens their national security and our national security.om who benefited hat attempt to withhold aid and the fact, the withholding of aid? putin. putin's russia. that's what this is about.an amershould have a chill from the horrifying obstruction by this president. and the use of his office, the abuse of his office for personal political gain. >> woodruff: well, iot just congressman collins and other republicans there. now, the people who support the

president, who are listening tom that at, who are saying they too don't hear solid evidence. what more can the democrats do m put a colling case together that the republicans and their supporters say they don't see? >> well, i think they juso t ned tock and look at the testimony of the public witnesses.n youow, intelligence committee had 100 hours of depositions that were not public testimony, but we have a report on that. then we hai think it was 12 witnesses who were publicly testifying. heroic, patriotics folks who came forward to say, as going on was crazy, wasgu irr, was a separate line of diplomacy for rudy giuliani working literally with russians to try to figure out how theon dump dir political foe. the evidence is there. i think the american people were very impressed with people like dr. hill. she had no interest in coming

forward. she's a career-long diplomat. she's worked for republican adnistrations and democratic administrations. this isn't about politics. this is about pat this is about upholding our constitution. if we turn a blind eye on this, it is as though we said the impeachment clause does not exist. and therefore the president can above the law. we simply cannot have that. w woodruff: congresswoman, what is your vi expanding the articles of impeachment to include obstruction as it was outlined in the mueller report? >> we know there are manyio consider in terms of what articles will be drafted. as a member of the judicia committee, i think it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on the article, but certainly thevents surrounding seeking by this president of interference with our elections, publicly, who called on rus ia terfere, publicly who called on china to interfere, and privately, by record of the call that he released, it's the

only document hes released thus far, he asks ukraine to interfere. so i think i'm not going to speculate on the articles because i'll be part of that conversation as a member of the judiciarcommittee. at i hope is that our articles are very concrete, specific, thoughtful, and rooted in the law.>> oodruff: so if i were to ask you, do you think it strengthens your case to add an article that encompasses obstruction and the mueller report? >> i don't know if that strengthens our case, and i'm not interested in the mueller report. i'm interested in the behavior of the president as revealedu eitherlicly by him, in the investigation by thealed special counsel. i'm not interested ithe mueller report. i'm interested in the corrupt behaor of this inecent president. >> woodruff: last question. what are you hearing from your constuents about th? are they raising the issue of the president, his behavior, ofm

achment, or not? >> they are. i serve suburban philadelphia, montgomery county, pennsylvania, and berkes county. my costituents are gravely concerned. they're fearful for our country. they come to me in the barbshop or at the grocery store, and they say, what are you doing? rried for our country. i'm worried for our precious constitution and our democracy, and i'm tired of being so agitated. i'm worried about our leadership and our standinin the world. please do something about it. the vast majority of my constituents say please, youi have to take ts seriously and, sadly, you have to take thi extraordinary step to impeach and remove the president. don't get me wrong, there are certainly a number of my this action. who do not support but the majority do. >> woodruff: congresswoman madeleine dean of pennsylvania, thk you very much for joining me. >> thank you, judy. thank you.

>> woodruff: our economics corresndent paul solman talks to an older worker of some note tonight,bout his music, his life traumas, his career as a rock star, and why he still feels the need to record new albums and hithe road. all at the age of 74. it's part of our "making sense" series, "unfinished business." ♪ talking ¡bout my neration ♪ my generation >> reporter: a, maybe the , generational anthem of the '60s, with a line for the ages, and age-ists. re ♪ i hope i die befo i get old ♪ talkin' 'bout my generation >> reporter: but pete townshend, who wrote those lyrics, doesn't live by them. 55 years after co-founding the rock band, the who, townshend, is still at it.fo you're famouthe line. i hope i die before i get old. so you didn't. >> it was a song i wrote when i was 18 years old. i was living in london and gettinpushed around by rich women in fur coats.

i hated them all. they hated me. let's just shot down that conversation. i know your show's about old well, i'm happy tohere as an old person. i've actually come to realize that this time of life is probably the best.it when you5, as i will next birthday, you realize that, your know, that ydefinitely on a shorter leash and you tend to kind of settle with the present. and in a sense, for people of my generation who went through the l.s.d. era of trying, in a sense to find out who is god, you know, who am i? all of thastuff, you know? i have weeks, months, years, maybe. and i should live in the present. so it's a very beautif thing. >> reporter: how much of what you're feeling in terms of gratificatiois because you are continuing to work? if i'm absolutely honest, i really only working as hard as i

am at the moment for money. >> reporter: now unlike so manyw his age,hend can continue to work. and, as a high-living rock sta"" chmoney" to him means racing. one of his boats a classic from 1906. >> the average for running a boat is about 15% of theebuild cost. let's say you tried to build it today, it would cost about a million dollar maybe a million and a half dollars to build. so it's $200,000 a year to run a tiny littlboat that i go racing in twice a year. >> reporter: towhend and the other surviving member of the who, lead singer roger daltrey, have hit the road again, tourin for townshend, there's another economic incentive to keep going: his sizable retinue of" dependents." >> my daughter menta, for example, has got a full spectrum autistic boy, and when we worked out how much it woulcost to get him through education, it came to a million pounds. and i employ people and the band employs people. and it's great to be the personh

kind of decides whether that happens or not. it's a moment of power. >> reporte well, isn't it a moment of power go on tour to have all those people sticking with you for all these years, your fan base? >> hmmm, that isn't me. i don't feel excited. i feel i'm there to do a job. there's no thrill. indeed, i would say that ion't like it much. as i said to my wife, now, rachel, i said, you know, i must be a really brilliant actor. if i look like i'm enjoying it because i really don't enjoy it. i do it as a job and i find it incredibly easy. so easy. i don't even have to think about it. >> reporter: over the yearsgh townshend brouenergy aplenty to the stage. the who's lyricist and lead guitart became known for his windmilling and tilating his instruments. do you still jump? >> you know, i try. i don't get very hh, but i ill try.

you know, i don't know why i'm in good shape. i certainly, i don't exercis i don't eat well. >> reporter: well, you do exercise because you exercise when you tour. >> that's true.e i wore my aptch for one gig and it turned out i walked eight miles. >> reporter: townshend and roger daltrey have been performing together since the 1960's. >> he loves doing it and i think he will do it until he drops. i dot think that's my story. you know, one of us really, really, really wants to go on. and then there's me who really i know, you know, i prefer to just go sailing and read a book. >> reporter: and write one too; he calls his new novel"the age of anxiety," a "extended meditation on manic genius and the dark art of creativity." he plans to turn it into an opera, like previous works" mmy" and "quadrophenia." the who also have a new album -- about, am"who" her things, aging. >> i wrote the songs for roger.w so dealih his perception

of what aging is and hoping,he funnily enoughidn't connect with, i sentbout 15 songs. he dn't connect with any of them. and he didn't respond for five months. nothing. i had nothing. and then when he did respond, he said, these are songfor you, pete. and i said, no, roger, these are songs for you! >> reporter: because he doesn't want to face the aging the way you do.yb >> maybe, i don't know. sh>> reporter: one song tod penned for the new album: "i don't wanna get wise." >> i aligned the idea of the wisdom of aging, t wisdom of experience, the wisdom of suffering, the wisdom of psing thugh life, being somethin which is a mark of aging. and therefore, you know, in a sense, that the song i don't nt to get wise is another you know, i don't want to get old! >> reporter: in 2003 townshend was arrested on child porn

charges. but he's always said it was part of his own sting operation >> we were just trying to demonstrate that banks needed tk stopg money for this. it's not like buying playboy magazine.as itonsequences, >> reporter: townshend himself says he survivedhildhood abuse. i ad been damaged. i always used to say, you know,d i'm likemond with a flaw and the flaw is that period of abuse. it was brief in my case. i waonly with my grandmother for two years. that was pretty terrifying. and, you know, at 74 years old, oh... you know, it's still here. it's not something that's ever gonna go away. and i should use the wor ssexual abuse,uldn't shy away from that. some of the abuse that i w suffer sexual. >> reporter: from your grandmother? >> yeah. and friends of my grandmother. my grandmother wasff her trolley, unfortunately. >> reporter: "tommy," the film and broadway hit rock opera umout a boy struck deaf, d

and blind by trauma, turns out to have been an allegory of that experience. >> in tommy, i completely unconsciously use this idea as a vehicle for exploring my own reallyuite tragic story. roger daltrey wanted do a tour of the cplete tommy and we did a test of it, and on the first night, i had a nervous breakdown on the stage. this is too much, a celebration of my difficulties, a celebration of my childhood suffering >> reporter: in the end, though, townshend belies in art, andei its ability toorce not sufferinbut hope. >> and my method as a musician is to try to create events, to g try musical moments wherer, people gathere they unify, and where they realize that just understanding thatall understand is very, very important. >> reporter: so are you in part

working at your age because you feel that you are a source, as indeed y are, of people coming together? >> as an artist, i... i feel very, very luc they call it? do a patron. and the patron is my audience. and continues to work for them. and i want to keep doing it if i can. >> reporter: so pete townshend is still on thforoad, rocking a living. for the pbs newshour, this is paul solman in new york. >> woodruff: now, the story behind the exoneration of a wrongly convicted man in missouri who spent decades in prisonand the lens it provides on larger problems with the criminal justi system. amna nawaz explores these questions. >> nawaz: over the past five weeks, our original podcast series, "broken justice," has been telling the story of missouri's overloaded public defender system and what that

tells us about justice in america. the series focuses on w that system fled one man in particular, ricky kidd.99 in kidd was convicted of double homicide and sentenced to life without parole. he has alws maintained his nocence. in the final episode of the series, which is now outwe share that kidd, after 23 years in prison,as exonerated and released. that is in large part due to pro no legal efforts of an o'brien, a law professor at the university of missouri, kansas city, who has spent decades o working rturn wrongful convictions. withs now to discuss all of k that are ricd and sean o'brien. thank you so much to botof you for being here.ou >> thank thank you for having us. >> nawaz: ricky, let me start with you. it's an incredible story to the rest of us. it is your life. it's impossible to cover in fulc due here in thversation. but how do you even begin to explain to people what it was like to be incarcerated for two

decades knowing you didn't do what you were accused of doing? >> it was a nightmare. it was like going to sleep falling into a nightmare dream and not being able to wake up. you know, often we do that right. we go to sleep and wwake up and say, hey, i had a bad dream and it's over in a matter of seconds. or however long that lasts. but for me, that nightmare was 23 years. and so that's the be i can explain it. it was a living nightmare. >> nawaz: did you ever think that you wouldn't get out? did you ever think i'm gonnave p hope? in in the far back of your you do. you know the stats. the less than one percent are ever successful on appeals after conviction.th buother or rather the larger par your mind is, i can't i can't afford to think that i won't get out because there would be no reasono fight. >> nawaz: so, sean, let me ask

you about this, because ricky was defended by the public they are the frontline lawyers we chronicle in our podcast. we should mention you worked as a public defender for years in the '80s before leaving that line of work. when you saw ricky's case and what had happened,hat did you see that said to you, this deserves a second look? >> well, first of all, dan grothaus, the lawyer who brought brought the case the hadator who looked into the case and made a very compelling case. then i went and met his alibi witnesses, ricky's alibi witness. and they were solid. absolutely solid. and then, of course, you know, the prosecutor ihesomeone who is elf a red flag for wrongful convictions. so when i saw the whole picture, i couldn't not step in at that point. >> nawaz: ricky, help us understand what it was like when you connected with sean. and for the first time someone is telling you, i believe whatg. you're say i think there's something here. what was that like for you?

>> it was it was amazing. i worked hard for 10 years ying to get somebody to pay attention to my case. and when sean, who we are, a lot of us knew to be a good lawyer, a good advocate for those who are innocent and on death row. it was exciting. m was exciting. i felt like he wsuper hero out of the marvel comics. and i say that all the time that today's super heroes wear dresses and suit cts and not tights and capes. >> don't know if you want that ntal picture. >> he certainly is my hero. he certainly is my hero. i thank him so much every day. and the rest of e team who fought and worked and never gave up. it's easy not to give yourself when others have notu. given up on so, yeah, definitely super hero.

>> nawaz: sean, i got to ask you too, because we hear obviously i guess the question everyoneha is why does it take so long for those kinds of convictions to be undone once they're done? >> i'm still asking that question. you know, it was way too easy to convict an innocent person, and it's way harder than it should be to prove that he's innocent and get him released. you know, if you're innocent, you should never quit. you know, your innocence will get you free someday. and it's the some day part that was hard in this case. nawaz: but you know this syem inside and out.gs are there thre there reforms that could be put into place right now that would prevent things like rom happening to people like ricky? >> yes. and there are too many to talk out. but the first starting point is a dece pubc fender system. if we put public defenders on parity with prosecutors, then we 't be having this discussion today. public defenders had the resources, the saries, the caseloads of the prosecuto

they're up against, we'd have a level playing field and it wouln make af difference. this case is a good example because ricky's lawyer is not a bad lawyer, but she was outgunneby a prosecutor who was unscrupulous, but knew that because of her overworked opposition, that she could get away with things that she couldn't get away with if there was a well staffed defender system on the other side. >> nawaz: ricky, you are a free man. >> i am. >> nawaz: you have been out for about over three months now. >> 111 days now. >> nawaz: not that you're counting. w are you? what are your plans? what do you want to do? >> i'm great. i'm great. i want to add my voice to the cry for justice reform. i've had opportunities to touch home.tates now since i've been and most of those travels have inen advocacy work, speaking out

on the behalf, tto be the voice of those who are voiceless. >> nawaz: you are not turoing away fthe last two decades of your life. it sounds like you are leaning into it. you're not angry about that time? >> no, n angry in a sense of where it can be structive. and so i've learned how to turn my anger into passion. we should be angry because toon me, what's sous to that is being fed up, not destructively angry, well, we should be angry that taxpayers are spending s llions and hundreds of millions of dolleping the wrong person in prison. and so i don't want people to misconstrue because i'm happyjo and i'm full oand excitement today that the anger has dissipated, it has not. it's turned into passion for me. >> nawaz: well, we are so hahey to have yooday to have both of you here today. ricky kidd and sean o'brien. and all five episodes of broken justice are out. now you can lien on our web site or wherever you get your podcasts. >>

oodruff: and we'll be back shortly with a brief but spectacular take on turning mortifying adolescent experiens into comedy today.rs but take a moment to hear from your local pbs station.ha it's a ce to offer your

>> woodruff: tonight's brief but spectacular features comedian nick kroll.he mined the hilariod mortifying experiences of adolescence to create the animated netflix series "big mouth." although it is a period of life some of us would prefer to forget, oll says it has been healthy to revisit his past. >> "g mouth" is my animated show on netflix. gh is about my journey thr pubey with my best friend, andrew goldberg. it's based on our childhoods. b andrame a writer for family guy and i became a comedian and then we came back together 30 years after we met to create this show. we knew fr the beginning that we wanted this to be animated. we felt like we wanted adults to voice the kids. i think i voice over 30 characters on the show. so there is the voice of nick. i thnick's voice. there is the hormone monster who

is maurice, andrew's hormone monster. there's coach steve. hey, what's up everybo i'm coach steve. they are two twinsn twins. there's a ladybug, and ladybug will tell you what's what on a daily, daily. and, i don't know, there's like 25 more voices the tone of the show is very dirty. but i think it is equally weighted with an incredible warmth and sincerity. being a late bloomer mea that i just physically matured a lot feter than most of my friends. i didn't hit fiv until into high school. andrew was the earliest oomer.

that andrew was hitting puberty. because he could grow a mustache and beard in sixth grade. >> whether you were a late bloomer or an early developer, yofelt alone and you felt like you were different. >> season two of "big mouth," we indoduced the character cal the shame wizard. and in writing thehow we into the adolescen pubertyayed itself, because your body is changing, you're havg these different kinds of urges, sexual urges, emotional swing and what comes with those emotional swings is the feeling ofhame. i was lucky in my family that we did lk about sex and we had these books called whais happening to me. the most gratifying thing about making the ss been hearing

from kids and parentand teachers saying that they've hwatched the show, and it given them a platform and a vocabulary to talk about what's happing to them. the show at its core is abou making people feel not so alone, as i have made this show, the experience has been incredibly therapeutic in helping me understand who i was and how what i was going through has affected the manhat i have become. my name is nick kroll, and this is my brief but spectacular take on characters of different ageso broughife. >> woodruff: and you can watch additional brief but spectacula episodesr web site, pbs.org/newshour/brief. and on the newshour online right now, protests have rocked haiti for morea year, part of a global wave of uprisings triggered by economic inequality and dissatisfaction with government.

we explore thepecific factors driving unrest in that country on our website, pbs.org/newshour. and a news update before we go. uber says that it has recorded more than 3,000 sexual assaults in rides with its drivers in the u.s. last year. a long-awaited safety record released by the company this and fatal crashes that happene on its 1.3 billion ride into 018. it is the ride-hailing company's first safety study sce it has faced pressure to increase transparency. and that's the newshour for tonight. i'm judy woouff. join us online and again here tomorrow evening. for all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and see you soon. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> all right, richard. we mht be able to clear your name. say, "there is a bomb in sen

tallal park. you have 30 minutes. >> my sn is not theomber. he saved people's life. >> i want to help y'all. there is a bomb inentennial park. you have 30 minutes. >> f.b.i. is looking at richard jewell. >> he'stting railroaded. >> i think your client is guilty as hell. >> you ready to start fighting back? eastwood film, rated r.clint >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and friends he newshour. >> this program was made possible by the corporation for and by contributioyour pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

♪ ♪ - today on milk street, we travel to portland, maine, to the eventide restaurant, where chef mike wiley demonstrat the secrets of his green salad with nori vinaigrette. then we move across town ty to visit with baker/co-owner briana holt, who prepares her amazing maple-browned butter pie. so stay right here with milk street as we learn to cook the great recipes of portland, maine. - funding for this series was provided by the following.