[female narrator] funding for "overheard with evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stua, and by laura and john beckworth, [evan smith] i'm evan smith. he's a four-time grammy award-winning blues musician whose matest album is "okla he's keb' mo'. (upbeat electronic music) (audience applauds) let's be honest. is this about the ability to learn, or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa? yohicould say that he madown bed, but you caused him to sep in it. you know, you saw a problem and, over time, took it on. iz let's start with the szle before we get to the steak. are you gonna run for president? think i just got an f from you, actually. (audience laughs)is is "ov" (audience applauds)

[keb' mo'] thank you, evan. [smith] good tbe with you. [mo'] it's good to be here. n'mith] may i say, i believe i've had a two-apostrophe guest in 17 years? (laughs) first time for everything, right? [mo'] yes. [smith] for the record, it's kevin moore. [mo'] yes, that'my birth name. [smith] birth name is kevin moore. [mo'] kevin roosevelt moore. [smith] kevin roosevelt moore. we have a former drummer of yours tohank for christening you coi? yes. [smith] tell that story. [mo'] well, the was a band called the billy mitchell trio, and quentin dennard was the drummer in that band. they played at a club called the nucleusuance in l.a., durin' the late '80s and '90s. they didn't have a guitar player because it was a jazz trio. so i would go in and play for free. my job was to play along with the band. it wasn't really a job, [smith] it was a gig. [mo'] whenever i felt like it. and i would play tes.

when it was blues time, i was on. somohen, they'd go, "keb all right!" "kevin moore and the blues." (laugh [smith] kevin moore is not much of a blues name. it's more like an accountant. [mo'] yes. [smith] right, i get that. (audience laughs) so, keb' mo', that's it. [mo'] keb' mo'. [smith] and it stuck. [mo'] yeah. [smith] let's starout los . i wanna start, actually, in the reverse order i would ordinarily start. i'd want to talk the record first, and we'll get to the record, eventually. but i wanna talk about the origin story here ofeb' mo'. so you grew up in los angeles? [mo'] los angeles, in the ty of compton. [smith] city of compton. your parents, actually, were not from loangeles. they were from the deep south, right? [mo'] yes, they were from, her was from hooks, texas, and my father was from heflin, louisiana. [smith] yeah, do you remember in the house or? [mo'] we had s records in the house. i remember like, the first record we had, not thfirst record we ha the record that i would listen to a lot was not what you think the record i'd be listening to.

i listened to johnny mathis' "greatest hits." [smith] wething wrong. (audience laughs and applauds) if we agree on nothing else, let's agree, nothing wrong with johnny mathisrigh [mo'] johnny mathis' "greatest hits" was a great album. [smith] that's a great record. [mo'] stayed on the chartser, not unlike "tapestry" or "dark side of the moon." it was a great record with great songs and great production. so that was part of my introduction into music. it w [smith] did you knowom an e songs and great production. that this is what you wanted to do? i know there are a lot of stories about you as a young kid, you know, going to get your first guitar. i've heard, in fact, you intervwed on the subject of buying your first acoustic guitar and then, buying your first electric guitar, ghi think in a pawn shop, [mo'] yes. [smith] in compton, right? i've heard that story. i know that you kinda kicked around and at a young age with some other people. but i wonder what got you to think, this is something wanna do? [mo'] ism, that's a long dn. that was like, "that's what i'm gonna do!"

[smith] yeah, you didn't have a moment of revelation, right, a that was it. [mo'] but it was in my late 30s. (audience murmurs) [smith] in your late 30s? [mo'] when thelactual moment of reon came. [smith] right, so you were just doing this r the time being. [mo'] i started out, [smith] coaxed, really? [mo'] yeah, invited, so to speak. "heywanna come play?" my first experience was playing the trumpet in the fifth grade at general rosecrans elementary school. my mother said, "do you nna try for the band at school? "you wanna play music?" i said, "no." (audience chuckles) and i said, she looked and she, you didn't say no to my mother. [smith] right. (audience laughs) i'm noasking. i'm telling,? [mo'] she says, she says, she says, "oh! "well, you gonna play something." (laughs) [smith] your mher was everybody'sther, i hav. we've all had a version of that story. [mo'] so i went. they tried me out, and i ended up on the trumpet. the following year we moved, and i went to a new school. they kicked me out of the band

'cause my grades weret good enough. they were good at the other school, but the next school was kinda like, different deal. so i got kicked out of the band. and that's the house that we stayed in for the next, that house is, i still, i own that house right now. ,smith] still? [mo'] yeah, that hou i bought that house i still, i own that when i was in compton. we stayed there, and on that blk was chuck count t. he had a steel band, playing music from trinidad, calypso music. . [smith] calypso music, right, ye [mo'] and his son, carlos, who playing music from is still my good buddy today, who lives in the neighborhood, doo'] and his son, carlos, who playing music from he says, "hey, com.ddy today, "i wanna show you these drums." meanwhile, i just got kicked out of the band. he started playin' these drums, and he said, "look at this," he says. he played somethin'," da da da da da da da da. and i just played it right after, daga daga daga daga daga. (laug) d so, i guess his dad t wind of that i could,

you know, couldo that. [smith] we need you to come play with us, right? yeah! [mo'] yeah, so nt thing, i'm in there, playin' a steel band now. [smith] right, it's interesting to me, you know, johnny mathis, and the steel band, calypsmusic. over time you've played blues. you've plaat i think of really, as almost something like rock 'n' roll. you've had jazz, elements of jazz in your music, over time. it's really hard to put you in a bucket or one category, right? that you're this kind, i mean, i called you a blues musician co the introduction to ouersation today. that's true, but not accurate. really, you're a lot morehan just-- [mo'] well, there's not really such thing as a blues musician-- [smith] right. [mo'] -- jazz musician. [smith] how do you talk about yourself, or how do u want people to think about the work that you do? [mo'] i'm a musician, but i don't think of myself as a master musician. i know music. i'm not a virtuoso on any particular instrument, but i know music. know how it's built. i know the theory. i know the math of it. i have a reasonaount of dexterity on a guitar and a banjo, mandolin, things like that.

be[smith] right, you're g very modest. you have more than a reasonable amount of dexterity. (laughs) [mo'] clearly, you haven't heard tommy emmanuel. (chuckles) [smith] well look, i think that if you go back, [mo'] (chuckles) [smith] ase sit here now, 25 years since your first record, we go back and listen to that record today. there is more than just a reasonable amount of dexterity. and that was then, right? over time, oreiously, you're a dif musician than you were back then. [mo'] what i love is songwriting. you know, i think the songwriting factor, all that leads up to there. like i say, i was coaxed into things. i could tell you story after story, but just know wasn't the impetus for the goin' in there, you know. but i loved music. i always loved music. i'm really thankful for those people who did and coax me into musical situations because i wouldn't be standing here now without them. [smith] well, no success is your ccess. it's everyone's success.

all of us feel that way, right? evy contributed to it. [mo'] yeah, so i played the steel drums, and then in high schi playe. so i was in the compton community youth or compton. actually, when i was in compton, we had, there was a syhony in compton. it was a junior symphony in the 60s, in compton, thand i was in it, playinfrench horn. 'cause was very first french horn at the high school, and the first frorn person got to go play in the orchestra. [smith] it's amazing, french horn. [mo'] yeah (chuckles) [smith] probably all over the country, there are kids who are thinking, this is going to amount to nothing. this is like being a math major. 't[mo'] yeah, and it dimount to much, but i was in the band. it wasn't about the-- [smith] well, if you're around the stuft's what happens, right? [mo'] it's about being in the band. met these two guys, and they were in the band, playing frenchorn. i was hangin' with them. they said, "why don't you come? "they may need another french horn player. they said, "why don't you come? it was not glamorous. french horn was not glamorous. [smith] yeah, i can imagine. it's not glamorous, righ yeah. it's the french horn. [mo'] i hadn't been playing trumpet for years, and that was.

the teacher said, "okay, here! "it's the french horn. "get in line!" (audience chuckles) and i was in the marching band. [smith] that's pretty great. [mo'] (laugh[smith] what was y, keb', into the business, into the music business? you stout not actually as a performer. you started out working in the business, but not peorming, right? [mo'] i was performing. the steel band had gigs. [smith] but i'm talking about the real, like honest-to-goodness sic business, [mo'] oh, that started in dallas, texas, when i was iplay called "s" at the dallas repertory theater. i was a guitar man in that thing. i was playing acoustic, you know, country blues part and singing. a woman came up and asked if i had anything to sell. her name was vicky. she said, "do you have anything tsell?" i said, "no." she said, "why don't you have anything to sell? "what do you mean, you don't have anything to sell?" she just lik-w just reamed my you-knt

so i got somethin' to sell. i took some of my tapes that i had brought with me, and i put thether-- [smith] put it together. [mo'] --and wento a studio in dallas. had 'em run off a hundred cassettes. lehad a guy draw up a liharacter of me. i went to kinkos, put it on a piece of paper, (audience laughs) put it in there, folded it up and t it in there, cut it just right and then-- [smith] total diy deal, right, yeah. [mo'] i did a hundrehose-- [smith] hundred of those-- [mo'] and put 'em up. [smith] and started selling them. [mo'andem.sold all of i made $1,000! [smith] and started selling them. [smith] did you? (audience laughs) you probably never thought in a million years, right? [mo'] anwathat's the point when in the music business! (laughs) (audience applauds) mith] $1,000 is real money, right? [mo'] that's right. [smith] that's real money. soe just had your first studio album, solo studio album come out the summer of 2019, in five years, right? first studio album in five years, right, "oklahoma"? [mo'] no, i have a solo one called "blues americana." [smith] but that was 2014. [mo'] oh yeah, yeah, you're right. [smith] so it's five years. [mo're better at math than i am. (audience laughs)

[smith] there's a lotta things you can do that i can't do, beginning with theh horn. but i know that it's been five years since the last record, and i think people were waiting around to see what this was. this is coreally pretty terrific , this record "oklahoma." [mo'] oh, thank you so much. [smith] there are so many ngs on it. i mentioned to you, before we came out here, that when i've listened to the record, th've stuck in my head. i find myself thinking about the songs when i'm not listening to it. would you talk a little bit about how this record came to pas i mean, there are a lot of interesting stories about this record. your mom passed away last year-- [mo'] yeah.[smith] --ri? it's got personal aspects to it, i understand. but talkbout this record and why it's called "oklahoma." [mo'] okay well, it started out, i called my friend colin linden. i said, "man, i'm tire "come help me make this record." "come, you know, help me." so he copr with me. i sent him the songs. i went through all my comper and looked at all these things that i had written. i said, "aw." i'm thinking, i'm gonna have to write a whole album in two weeks. colin calls me back. he says, "i don't know, man. "i think you got a record here." you know?

[s for those of us who are not in this line of work. you have a file on your computer where you just keep things that you're working on, ideas. [mo'] throughout the year, there'll be writing sessions. you work with these people, everything. [smith] so you don'twrite when you have an album coming out. you just write when you write, and you just save it. ,[mo'] all the ti you always write. you just write when you write, you're always writin', and then you have it. [smith] you're puttin' it in a pipeline-- [mo'] mm-hmm. [smi] --right? [mo'] so the story about "oklahoma," to me, is the most interesting thing about the album. why is it called "oklahoma"? so it was originally gonna be called "this is my home." but "oklahoma" came up. the way it happened is, i had this idea, this riff, goin' dang dang dang adanga adanga da blanga da blanga. i'm just playin' it over and over about two weeks around christmas time. i'm goin', "i like playing this. "it just feels good to play it. "i know it needs a hook." i'm goin', "okay." i was in l.a. at my sister's hoe. i'm goin', ♪ oklahoma i was like, "oh that's crap!" (laughs) [smith] you have no connection personally to the state of oklahoma, right?

[mo'] yeah, i do have. i'll get to that. [smith] okay. was kind of this odd thing for that reason. [mo'] i'll get into that. [smith] okay, good. [mo'] i'll get into that. so i got this idea. new year's day, i have a party. my wife and ouhave a party at the every year, and we invite everybody over. we got food, liquor, music, everying. everybody just comes over. bring anybody you want and, you know, like that. my drummer, marcus finnie, when i do have a band, he saywant you to meet this lady, dara tucker. "you should wre with her." you know what i mean? and i'm goin', "okay, now that i got this record, "i don't have any songs." so, i give it to her, and she comes over like the next d. i say, "where are you from she says, "oklahoma." (audience chuckles) bing! (chuckles) [smith] right, divine intervention. [mo'] so i've got an idea now, "oklahoma." what about this? let's just work on this.

i explained to her that i didn't so we on the wikipedia (audience chuckles) and started lookin' at stuff and thinkin' abo, what's happenin' in oklahoma? i knew, i had been to oklahoma and seen a tornado. aftermath now of a rnado, that's a big one. i went there with kenny wayne shepherd. we did a benefit. [smith] did a benefit concert. i remember that, righthe [mo'] kenny wayne sh, robert randolph. like i said, we did a benefit. i was like, "oh, a tornado is no joke." (chuckles) that thing grinds like a meat grinder, but it's not meat. it's wood and steel and just all this stuff. [smith] destn left's so bad. [mo'] it's so bad, definitely. also, i became friends with garth brooks and vince gill, guys from oklahoma. i started meetin' all these people from oklahoma. i started really lookin' at the pple even my favorite guitar player that i grew up with, david t. walker, was born in oklahoma, timmy b. schmit from the eagles. oklahoma is a state of great things. [smith] so yok have a connection thoma-ish.

[mo'] it's a connection, but i kinda like had to dig and build it. [smith] right, i'm a littlrrie you wrote the song based on what you read on wikipedia. (audience laughs) this is actually, this has stuck with me. [mo'] nono i know people. and the people were in the area, i'm thinkin' like. thigarth brooks ish me. [mo like, and vince gill, those are some of the most down-to-earth, shameless, good people i've ever met. you know, oklahoma, you know? shameless, good people so i gver met. we write the song. and there's also, the gap band is om oklahoma too, just so you know that. ♪ you dropped a bomb on me baby ♪ (laughs) so there's all that good stuff. [smith] there's good things in oklahoma. e. [mo'] uncle charlie's from oklahoma. [smith] i get it. i get it. [mo'] uncle charlie. [smiha] so this is a recordactually, i don't think of you as a political-- [mo'] oh, i'm political. - but i don't think of you as a political-- but you're not an expressly. oh look, you're not ani difranco, right? you're not a politrtist in the sense of that you wear your politics on your sleeve-- [mo'] no, i hide it. [smith] you hide it. but you know, but there is a, i detected, i thought, a subtle

but unmistakable political vibe on this record. [mo'] yeah. [smith] a little bit about the environment, a little bit about feminism and the place of women in society today. you have a great collaboration on this record [sth] --a song called "putwoma? it's a really interesting and good song. and there's ac a discussion of immigration-- [mo'] immigration, yeah. [smith] and the fact that you said, ou had intended the record to be called "this is"-- [mo'] "my home." you actually have a perspective on what's happening now,n the world-- [mo'] yeah. [smith] --about immigration as a subject. i think it's subtly visible. talk about that. i think that's really interesting. [mo'] that's right. i pusubject of immigration as a love story, not as a talk about people who come here, not goin' right at the issue. i wanted to humanize immigration, in a sense. [smith] but you t there, though. i think you walk away from it-- [mo'] even in "oklahoma," there's a big political thing in there too that everybody misses. [smith] well, help u give us e easter egg.

show us the easter egg in the song. [mo'] it's the bridge where i go like, "and over on greenwoarcher " [mo'] it's the bridge whe the '20s,e, one of the biggest race riots ahoma, back thell it was called black wa street. and there was this community in wall street where these ex-slaves, you know, african americans had figured out how to do buness. they had a community. probably a lot of it was because of segregation. and like p you had to havur own stuff. but word has it that a dollar would go around the community 30 times. me and the communitythat beery prosperous.o and then on the other sidef the tracks, in another part of tulsa, oklahoma, you think about racial tension back then. this is the '20s. so... some black men got accused of, you know, usually the thing of inappropriately

something withte woman. [smith] right. [mo'] they got wind of it, and it was already probably hot. and burnt and bombed the place down. [smitherwow, so that's the rce. [mo'] yeah, and it's like. it was squashed down in history for a few ars, not in any history books. it was very quiet, but it was the biggest race riot there ever was. [smith] well, this record, whether you are interested in the politics of it or not, is a really great record to listen to. i wish you a lot of success with it. can i completely pivot away from music for a second and ask you about your love of hats? (audience chuckles[mo'] ye. well, back in-- [smith] that's a nice hat. i like that hat. [mo'] i started goin' bald in, um, 1970. [smith] is that right? [mo'] yeah, and i went bald very slowly. [smiwas about to say, you have been successful in the getting bald department. [m] yeah, no. [smith] you are successfully bald now.

[mo'] but it was like really slow. i mean, i had hair 'til my mid-30s and late 40s, not late, my 40s. and it gradually, it finally just got. i just kept lower, cuttin' it lower and lower and lower. finally got to the point where i s, "oh, this is ridiculous, dude." just shave it all off. and then, it looks li this now. (audience chuckles) [smith] great, yeah. (audience applauds) [mo'] i just neethin', i just need somethin' to block out the light [smith] but you said to me again, before we came out today, this kinda really caught my ear. i wanted to ask you about this. you said, "buying a hat is an arduous task." [mo'] yes. [smith] we could do 30 minutes on this. why don't you do a shorter version of it? [mo'] well, my friend, colin he's very, you know, manly like im, you know, on the top of the head. [smith] quite bald. [mo'] he says, ud hat is not a toy." nce laughs) so i mean, when you go lookin' for your hat, this becomes your haircut. [smight well, that's interesting. [mo'] this is like, you know.

this becomes your, you know, either you can wear this. is is cool too. or you can wear this. but this is like a haircut now. if you've ever had a bad haircut, you know-- [smith] sometimes, the answer to a bad haircu is a hat, actually. [mo'] yeah. (chuckles) [smith] as the case may be. [mo'] just wand just see '. so it's like that. so buyin' a hat the right shape, brim. [smith] well, it's become a signature piece of your own style. we don't associate you with anything othe having a fine hat on. [mo'] and you can't find 'em, i can't find a bunch of hats 'cause i have a really long head, too. because there's some of 'em, they said, "here come kevin with the ol' footballead." (audience laughs) [smith] i wodn't have made the football head reference myself, but now i'm not gonna be able, not be able to-- [mo'] (lboghs) [smith] let's talk a couple of things on you as we wrap here. the first thing is, you are no longer livin los angeles, you have-- [mo'] i have a house in, not full-time but part-time, 'cause i have a house in compton.

[smith] but you're living primily in tennessee? [mo'] tennessee. franklin, tennessee. [smith] why did you decide to move? this is again, you know. it's not the deeh in the sense that your parents were. but it's the south though. [mo'] well, my wife is from wisconsin. we he a 12-year-old son. i m, she didn't like the attitude of los angeles, whatever. she didn't like somethin', somethin' she didn't like. she's, "well, it's too crowded," atever. and she tells me one day with teary eyes, she goes, "i don't wanna raise my son here." (audienckles) and i went, oh snap. (laughs) okay, honey. [smith] 'cause you've been in thatituation. [mo'] i know. [smith] where are we goin'? [mo'] i saw the movin' trucks, comin'. (chuckles) [smith] but you're in franklin, tennessee. eso'] yeah. [smith] but eing in essee, which is obviously a rich musical tradition in the state of tennessee. [mo'] well, there was nowhere else for us to go 'cause of nashville. [smith] how does it affect your thinking about music, about your own performance or your own collaborations?

[mo'] it was like a fresh start. [smith] it was. [mo'] it didn't change ork style. it didn't change who i was, anything. but i found a whole fresh bunch of writers to collaborate with, musicians to collabote with and a fresh perspective in doin' it there. to was like i just move new school. [smith] so the work product, will we see, t will we see a differrk product as a result of there than we would have, had you not left the west coast? [mo'] yes, i believe so. but i don't see it as much different because i was already ronded in country and r&blues. nothinally changed. [smith] the physical location is not going to affect that. [mo'] no, but ople around. but also, you can always find a really good pedal steel player in nashville. [smith] it's a little easier to find it there. [mo'] you can find great mandolin players. u can find guys that are really masterful. i mean, the musicianship and the songwriting skill is just masterful. [smith] right, they have reasonable dexterity-- [mo'] yes. (chuckles) [smith] as you like to say, (audience chuckles) in nashville.

so you're on the road, touring. you tour a lot, right? you're on the road all the tim [mo'] yeah, i do. [smith] and you enjoy it. this is one of the things that i always ask musicians. do you prefer recording, or do you prefer toung? [mo'] it's all the same thing. [smith] it's all the same ing. o sides of the same coin, isn't it? [mo'] yes. [smith] right. ou tour to support records, or do you make records so you have something ttour? [m's all the same thing. [smith] again, the same thing. it's not one side or another side. [mo'] you tour to support the record. it's not one side you make the record to support the tour. you play the music tonnect to e that will come to the-- [smith] well, fortunately, you have something to sell now. you don't have to go to kinkos anymore and fold up paper, right? (laus) you've already got a product. [mo'] i would do it though. (chuckles) [s (audience laughs) youth] i get a sense.product. the gleam in your eye, reporting that you made $1,000 tells me that if you had to go back to kinkos again-- [mo'] the thing is, i want 'cause i had a record in 1980 called "rainmaker" ta kevin moore, the acco kevin moore.

[smith] yeah, right. (audience laughs) that was a harrowing experience of like, gettin' kicked out of the record business. i knew that if i wanted to be in the record business, o gettin' kicked out of i had to go in on .ness. i didn't go ask for a record deal. because when they said no, it would've crushed me. i'm a sensitive guy. i'm not a big, strong, tough guy. [smith] rather have your control, also, of your owdeal, right? [mo'] my own destiny. i want to determine, i,ot want to, but i decided to decide what was gonna happen for me. it wasn't about nuers. it wasn't about how many people i could reach,me. how much money i could make. it was about, this is where next, that aha moment that you asked about earlier in the ierview. that was the aha moment when i'm goin', "okay, now you're 39, sucker." and so, there's no goin' back on that. [smith] that's great. [mo'] you know, so it was like, i could've quit and done somethin' else, right then. [smith] yeah well, thank god you didn't.

[mo'] i decided to keep goin'. [smith] it's a great story. you're very charming guy. it's nice to see people who deserve to succeed, succeed. [mo'] well, thank you. [smith] you've had a great career. let's hopehat you continue to. you have a christmas record coming out? [mo'] yes, i do. [smith] what was the, we have like 30 seconds. what's the short version of that story? [mo'] it's a christmas record, and it's, the title is "moonlight, mistletoe and you." (audience chuckles) [smith] new songs? [mo'] yeah, new songs, classic sos, you know. and it, i love it. ch there's this one nostmas ng on there. [smith] how great. [mo'] it's just, t wait for the christmas tour because i got this record now. [smith] okay good. [mo'] listen to the song, "christmannoying." (audience laughs) [smith] mas may be annoying, but you are not. keb' mly, thank you so much, renjoyed it. give him a hand. (audience applauds) keb' mo', thank you. we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our webs klru.org/overheard

to find invis to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests anrchive of past episodes. (upbeat bandusic) [mo'] some people will practice all day. some people will practice once a ek. some people will practice for 15 or 10 minutes a day. for me, i was not e of the, maybe one day, i played all day. was very inconsistent. but i was consistent in the fact that i kept going, and i never gave up. [announcer] g for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by laura and john beckworth, the hobby family foundation. (tinkling electronic music)

captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org robert: it was a sleepy week in washington, but not in american politics. >> they have nothing. >> no crime.re robert:dent trump is in florida and the fight over his senate trial continues.th and as e yeart' ends, ts far from the only battl that he faces. >> we need to restore the integrity. >> if the preside claims that he is sot, innocen why doesn't he have all the president's men testify. robert: next.is >> thi "washington week." nunding is proded by- >> before we talk about your