[female narrator] funding for "overheard with evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, s texas government affansultancy, claire and carl stua, and by laura and john beckworth, the hobby familyoundation. [evan smith] i'm evan smith. he's a four-time grammy award-winning blues musician whose latest album is "oklahoma." he's a four-time grammy award-w he's keb' mo'.sician this is "overheard." (upbeat electronic music) (audience applauds) is this about the ability to learn, or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? what has befallen other nations in africa? you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. u know, you saw a problem and, over time, took it on. let's st wt with the sizzle bee get to the steak. are you gonna run for president? i think i just an f from you, actually. (audience laughs) this is "overheard."

[smith] keb' mo'welcome. [keb' mo'] thank you, evan. [smith] good to be with you. [mo'] it's good to be here. [smith] may i say,i don't e i've had a two-apostrophe guest in 17 years? (laughs) first time for everything, right? [mo'] yes.) [smith] for the record, it's kevin moore. [mo'] yes, that's my birth nam [smith] birth name is kevin moore o'] kevin roosevelt moore. [smith] kevin roosevelt moore. we have a former drummer of yours to thank for christening you or coining keb' mo', right? [mo'] yes. [smith] tell that story. [mo'] well, the was a nd called the billy mitchell trio, and quentin d was the drummer in that band. they played at a club called the nucleus nuance in l.a., durin' the late '80s and '90s. they didn't have a guitar player because it was a jazz trio. so i would go in and play for free. my job was to play along with the band. it wasn't really a job, [smith] it was a gig. [mo'] whever i felt like it.

and i would play the blues. when it was blues time, i was on. so with kevin, you cat go like, "kevin moore and the blues." (laugh [smith] kevie is not much of a blues name. it's more like an accountant. [mo'] yes. [smith] right, iet that. (audience laughs) so, keb' mo', that's it. [mo'] keb' mo'. [smith] and it stuck. [mo'] yeah. [smith] leles start about los an i wanna start, actually, in the reverse order i would ordinarily start. i'd want to talk about the record first, and we'll get to the record, eventually t i wanna talk about the origin story here ofeb' mo'. so you grew up in los angeles? [mo'] los angeles, in the city of compton. [smith] city of compton. your parents, actually, were not from los angeles. they were from the deep sth, rit? [mo'] yes, they were from, my mother was from hooks, texas, and my fats from heflin, louisiana. [smith] yeah, do you remember listening to musics a kid, in the house or? [mo'] we had s records in the house. i remeike, the first record we had, not thfirst record we had, but the record t would listen to a lot

was not what you think the record i'd be listening to. i listened to johnny mathis' "greateshits." [smith] well, nothing wrong. (audience laughs and applauds) let's agree, nothing wrong with johnny mathis, right? [mo'] johnny mathis' "greatest hits" was a great album. [smith] that's a great record. [mo'] it stayed on thcharts fer, not unlike "tapestry" or "dark side of the moon." it was a great record with great songs and great production. so that was part of my introduction into sic. [smith] did you know from an early age that this is what u wanted to do? i know there are a lot of stories about u as a young kid, you know, going to get your first guitar. i've heard, in fact, you interviewed on the subje of buying your first acoustic guitar and then, buying your first electric guitar, i think in a pawshop, right? [mo'] yes. [smith] in compton, right? i've heard that stor i know that you kinda kicked around e and played at a young with so. but i wonder what got you to think, this is something wanna do? [mo'] hmm, that's a long decision. because i wasn't one of these guys

that was like, "that's wh i'm gonna do!" [smith] yeah, you didn't have a moment of revelation, right, and that was it. [mo'it was in my late 30s. (audience murmurs) [smith] in your late 30s? [mo'] when the actual mome of revelation came. [smith] right, so you were just doing this for the time being [mo'] i started out, and i was always coaxed into playing music. [smith] coaxed, really? [mo'] ye "hey, you wanna come play?" ay first experience was g the trumpet in the fifth grade at general rosecrans elementary school. my mother said, "do you nna try for the band at school? "you wanna play music?" i said, "no." (audience chuckles) and i said, she lond she, you didn't say no to my mother. [smith] right. (audience laughs) i'm noasking. i'm telling, right? [mo'] she says, she says, she says, "oh! "well, you gonna play something." (laughs) [smith] your mother was everybody's mother, i have to say. we've all had a ion of that story. [mo'] so i went. they tried me out, and i ended up on the trumpet. the following year we moved, and i went to a new school.

they kicked me out of the band 'cause my grades weren't good enough. they were good at the other school, but the next school was kinda like, different deal. ot kicked out of the band. and that's the house that we stayed in for the next, that house is, i still, i own that house right now. [smith] still? [mo'] yeah, that house, i bought thae when i was in compton. so we stayed there and on that blk was chuck count t. he had a steel band, playing music from trinidad, capso music. [smith] calypso music, right, yeah. [mo'] and his son, carlos, who is still my good buddy today, who lives in the neighborhood, he says, "y, come down. "i wanna show you these drums." meanwhile, i just got kicked out of the band. he started playin' these drums, tand he said, "look s," he says. he played somethin'," da da da da da da da da. anst played it right after, daga daga daga daga daga. (laughs) and so, i guess hi idad got wind of thould,

you know, could do that. [smith] we need you to come play with us, right? yeah! [mo'] yeah, so next thing, i'm in there, playin' a steel band now. [smith] right, it's johnny mathis, and the steel band, calypso music. over time you'yed blues. you've played what i think of really, as almost something like roc'n' roll. you've had jazz, elements of jazz in your music, over time. it's really hard to put you in a bucket or oneory, right? that you're this kind, i mean, i called you a blues musician that's true, but not accurate. really, you're a lot more than just-- [mo'] well, there's not really such thing as a bluesian-- [smith] right. [mo'] --or jazz musician. [smith] how do you talk about yourself, or how do about the work that you do? [mo'] i'm a musician, but i dot think of myself as a master musician. i know music. i'm not a virtuoso on any particular instrument, but i know music. i know how it't. i know the theory. i know the math of it. i have a reasonable amount of dexterity on a guitar

and a banjo, or a mandolin, things like that. [smith] right, you're being very modest. you have more than a reasonable amount of dexterity. (laughs) [mo'] clearly, you haven't heard tommy emmanuel. (chuckles) [smith] well look, i think that if you go back, 25 years since your first record, we g and listen to that record today. there is more than just a reasonable amount of dexterity. we g and listen and that was then, right? over time, obviously, you're a different musician than you were ban. [mo'] what i love is songwriting. you i think the songwriting factor, all that leads up to there. like i saythi was ways coaxed intgs. i could tell you story after story, but juhe know that i wasn'tmpetus for the goin' in there, you know. but i loved music. i ways loved music. i'm really thankful for those people who did invite and coax me into musical situations because i wouldn't be standing here now without them. [smith] well, no success is your success.

it's everyone's success. all of us feel that way, right? to everybody contributet.cess. [mo'] yeah, so i played the steel drums, and then in h gh school, i played frern. so i was in the compton community youth or compton. actually, when i was inompton, we had, there was a symphony in compton. and i was in it, playin' the french horn. 'cause was very first french horn at the high school, and the rst french horn person got to go play in the orchestra. [smith] it's amazing, french horn. [mo'] yeah (chuckles) [smith] probably all over the country, there are kids who are thinking, i'm playing the french horn inchool. this is going to amount to nothing. this is like being a math major. [mo'] yeah, and it didn't amount to much, but i was in the band. asn't about the-- [smith] well, if you're around the stuff, that's what happens, right? [mo'] it's about being in the band. i met these two gu, and they were in the band, playing french horn. s hangin' with them. they said, "why don't you come? "they may need another french horn player. "why don't you play it?" it was not glamorous. s.rench horn was not glamor [smith] yeah, i can imagine. it was not glamorous. it's not glamorous, right, yeah. it's the french horn.

[mo'] i hadn't been playing trumpet for year and that was. the teacher said, "okay, here! "it's the french horn. "gline!" (audience chuckles) and i was in the marching band. [smith] that's pretty great. [mo' w(laughs) [smith] wh your way, keb', into the business, [sminto the music business?. alyou started out not ac as a performer. you started out working in the business, but not performing, right? [mo'] i was performing. the steel band had gigs. [smith] but i'm talking about the real, like honest-to-gs music business, recording business, right. [mo'] oh, that started in dallas, texas, when i was in a play called "spunk" at the dallas repertory theater. i was a guitar man in that thing. i was playing acoustic, you know, country blues part and singing. a woman came up and asked if i had anything to sell. her nameicky. she said, "do you have anything to sell?" id, "why don't you have anything to sell? "what do you mean, you don't have anything to sell?" she just like, just reamed myou-know-what

about not having anything tsell. so i got somethin' to sell. i took some of my tapes that i had brought with me, and [sput them together-- th] put it together. [mo'] --and went to a studio in dallas. had 'em run off a hundred cassettes. i had a y draw up a little character of me. i wenteco kinkos, put it on a of paper, (audience laughs) put it in there, folded it up and in there, cut it just right and then-- [smith] total diy deal, right, yeah. [mo'] i did hundred of those-- [smith] hundred of those-- [mo'] and put 'em up. [smith] and started selling them. [mo'] and i sold all of them. [smith] did you? (audience laughs) you probably never thought in a million years, right? [mo'] and that's the pointushen i was in the musicess! (laughs) (audience applauds) [smith] $1,000 is real money, right? [s[mo'] that's right. th] that's real money. so you've just had your first studio album, solo studio album come out in the summer of 2019, in five years, right? first studio album in five years, right, "oklahoma"? [mo'] no, i have a solo one called "blues americana." [smith] but that w 2014. [mo'] oh yeah, yeah, you're right. [smith] so it's five years. [mo'] you're better at math than i am.

(audience laughs) a [smith] there's a loings you can do that i can't do, beginning with the fnch horn. but i know that it's been five years since the last rord, and i think people were waiting around to see what this was. this is a really pretty terrific record, this record "oklahoma." [mo'] oh, thank you so much. [smith] there are so many songs on it. i mentioned to you, before we came out here, that when i've listened tthe record, they've stuck in my head. i find myself thinking about the songs when i'm not listening to it. would yolk a little bit about how this record came to pass? i mean, there are a lot of interesting stories about this record. r mom.your m- [mo'] yeah. [smith] --right? it's got personal aspects to it, i understand. co but talk about this and why it's called "oklahoma." d [mo'] okay well, it start, i called my friend colin linden. i said, "man, i'm tired. "come help me make this record." "come, you know, help me." soe coproduced with me. i sent him the songs. i went through all my computer and looked at all these things that i had written. i said, "aw." i'm thinking, i'm gonna have to write a whole album two weeks. colin calls me back. he says, "i don't know, man.

"i think you got a record here." you know? [smith] that's how this works for those of us who are not in this line of work. you have a file oncomputer where you just keep things s. that you're working on, id [mo'] throughout the year, you have a file oncomputer there'll be writing sessions. you work with these people, everything. [smith] so y don't just write when you have an album coming out. you just write when you write, and you just save it. [mo'] all the time, you always. you're always writin', and then you have it. [smith] you're puttin' it in a pipeline-- [mo'] mm-hmm. [smith] --right? [mo'] so story about "oklahoma," to me, is the most interesting thing about the album. why is it called "oklahoma"? so it was originally gonna be called "this is my home." but "oklahoma" came up. the way it happe tis, i had this ides riff, goin' dang dang dang adanga adanga da blanga da blanga. i'm just playin' it over and over about two weeks around christmas time. i'm goin', "i like playing this. "it just feels good to play it. "i k needs a hook." i'm goin', "okay." i was in l.a. at my sister's house. i'm goin', ♪ oklahoma i was like, "oh that's crap!" (laughs) [smith] you have no connection personally

to the state of oklahoma, right? yeah, i do have. i'll get to that. [smith] okay. i thought the fact that it was "oklahoma" was kind of this odd thing for that reason. [mo'] i'll get into that. [smith] okay, good. [mo'] i'll get into that. so i got this idea. [smith] okay, good. w year's day, i have a party. my wife and i have a party at the house every year, and we invite everybody over. ot food, liquor, music, everying. everyby just comes over. bring anybody you want and, you know, like that. my drummer, marcus finnie, when i do have a band, he says, "i want you toet this. "you should write with her." you know what i mean? and i'm goin', "okay, now that i got this record, "i don't have any songs." so, i give it to her, and she comes over like the next day. "where are you from?" she says, "oklahoma." (audience chuckles) bing! (chuckles) [smith] right, that's divine inteon. [mo'] so i've got an idea now, "oklahoma."

what about this? let's just work on this. i explained to her that i didn't have much of a cnection. so we on the wikipedia (audience chuckles) and started lookin' at stuff and thinkin' about, at's happenin' in oklahoma? i knew, i had been to okla aftermath now of a tornado, that's a big one. i went tith kenny wayne shepherd. we did a benefit. [smith] did a benefit concert. i rememberhat, right. [mo'] kenny yne shepherd, robert randolph. like i said, we did a benefit. i was like, "oh, a tornado is no joke." (chuckles) that thing grinds like a meat grinder, but it's not meat. it's wood and steel andjust. [smith] destruction left's so bad. [mo'] it's so bad, definitely. al g, i became friends with brooks and vince gill, guys from oklahoma. i started meetin' all these people from oklahoma. i started really lookin' at the people even my favorite guitar player that i grew up with, david t. walker, was born in oklahoma,ople timmy b. schmit from the eagles. oklahoma is a state of great things.

[smith] so you have a connection to oklahoma-ish. [mo'] it's a connectio but i kinda like had to dig and build it. [smith] right, i'm a littlrried you wrote the song basedipn what you read on wia. (audience laughs) this is actually, this has stuck with me. [mo'] no, no i know people and the people were in the area, i'm thinkin' like. garth brookslike, and vinc, those are some of the most down-to-earth, shameless, good people i've ever met. you know, oklahoma, you know? shameless, good people so i go,r met. we write tg. and there's also, the gap band is from oklahoma too, just so you know that. ♪ you dropped a bomb on me baby ♪ (laughs) so ere's all that good stuff. [smith] there's good things in oklahoma. i agree. [mo'] charlie's from oklahoma. [smith] i get it. i get it. [mo'] uncle charlie. [smith] so this is a record that actual, i don't think of you as a political-- [mo'] oh, i'm political. - but i don't think of you as a political-- but you're not an expressly. oh look, you're not ani difrco, right? you're not political artist in the sense of that you wear your politics on your sleeve-- [mo'] no, i hide it. [smith] you hide it. but you know, but there is a,

i detected, i thought, a subtle but unmistakable political vibe on this record. [mo'] yeah. [smith] a little bit about the envibonment, a little bit feminism and the place of women in society today. you have a great collaboration on this record [smith] --a song called "put a woman in charge," right? it's a really interesting and od song. and there's actually a discussion of immig ytion-- [mo'] immigratioh. [smith] and the fact that you said, which i did not know until you said it, that you had intenthe record "this is"-- [mo'] "my home." [smith] "this my me." you actually have a perspective on what's happening now, out in the world-o'] y. [smith] "this my me." [smith] --about immigration as a subject. i think it's subtly visible. talk about that. i think that'sally interes. [mo'] that's right. i put the subject of immigration as a love story, not as a talt people who come here, not goin' right at the issue. i wanted to humanize immigration, in a sense. i think you walk away from it-- [mo'] even in "oklahoma," there's a big political thing in too that everybody misses.

[smith] well, help us, give us the easter egg. show us the easter egg in the song. [mo'] it's the bridge where i go like, "and over on greenwood, archer and pine." [mo'] it's the bridge whe in the '20s, in oklahoma, back then, it was called black wall street. and there was this community in wall street where these ex-slaves, you know, african americans had figured out how to do buness. they had a community. probably a lot of it was because of segregation. anavlike people, you had tour own stuff. but word has it that a dollar would go around the community 30 times. and then on the other side of the tracks, in another part oftulsa, o, you think about racial tension back then. this is the '20s. so... some black men got accused of, you usually the thing of inappropriately

someth[sg with a white woman. th] right. [mo'] they got wind of it, and it was already probably hot. and burnt and bombed the place down. [smith] wow, so that's the reference. [mo'] yeah, an like. it was squashed down in history for a few years, not in any history books. it was very quiet, but it was the biggest race riot there ever was. [smith] well, this recor whether you are interested in the politics of it or not, is a really great record to listen to. i wish you a lot of success with it. can i completely pivot away from music for a second and ask you about your love of hats? (audience chuckles) [mo'] yeah, man. well, back in-- [smith] that's a nice hat. i like that hat. [mo'] i started goin' bald in, um, 1970. [smith] is that right? [mo'] yeah, and i went bald very slowly. ay [smith] i was about to you ha been successful in the getting bald department.

[mo'] yeah, no. [smith] you are successfully bald now. [mo'] but it was like really slow. i mean, i had hair 'til my mid-30s and late 40s, not late, my 40s. and it gradually, it finally just got. i justlower, cuttin' it lower and lower and lower. finally got to the point where i was, "oh, thiidiculous, dude." just shave it all off. and then, it looks like this now. (audience chuckles) [smith] great, yeah. (audience applauds) [mo'] i st need somethin', i just need somethin' to block out the light from my head, shinin'. (audience laughs) [smith] but e u said to me again, bef came out today, this kinda really caught my ear. i wanted to ask you abt this. you said, "buying a hat is an arduous task." [mo'] yes. [smith] we could do 30 minutes on this. why don't you do a shorter version of it? [mo'] well, my friend, colin linden, he alws says. he's very, you know, manly like im, [smith] quite bald. [mo'] he says, so i mean, when you go lookin' for your hat, this becomes your haircut.

[smith] right well, that's interesting. [mo'] this is like, you know. this becomes your, you know, either yocan wear this. this is cool too. or you can wear this. but this is like a haircut now. if you've ever had a bad haircut, you know-- [smith] sometimes, the answer to a bad haircut is a hat, actually. [mo'] yeah. (chuckles) [smith] as the case may be. [mo'eejust wait and justem. so it's like that. so buyin' a hat the right shape, brim. [smith] well, it's become a signature piece of your owe. we don't associate you with anything other than having a fine hat on. o'] and you can't find 'em, i can't find a bunch of hats 'cause i have a really lg head, too. because there's some of 'em, they said, "here come kevin with the ol' football head." (audience laughs) [smith] i wouldn't have made tfo ball head reference myself, but now i'm not gonna be able, not be able to-- [mo'] (laughs) [smith] les talk about a couple of things on you as we wrap here. the first thing is, you are no longer livin los angeles, right, full-time? you have-- [mo'] i have a house in,

not full-time but part-time, 'cause i have a house in compton. [smith] but you're living primarily in tennessee [mo'] tennessee. franklin, tennessee. [smith] why did you decide to move? this is again, you know. it's notnshe deep south in the that your parents were. but it's the south though. [mo'] well, my wife is from wisconsin. we he a 12-year-old son. i was, um, she didne the attitude of los angeles, whatever. she didn't like somethin', somethin' she didn't le. she's, "well, it's too crowded," whatever. and she tells me one day with teary eyes, she goes, "i don't wanna raise my son here." udience chuckles) and i went, oh snap. (laughs) okay, honey. [smith] 'cause you've been in that situation. i know. [smith] where are we goin'? [mo'] i saw the movin' trucks, comin'. (chuckles) [smith] but you're in franklin, tennessee. [mo'] yeah. [smith] but does beingn nnessee, which is obviously a rich musical tradition in the state of tennessee. [mo'] well, there was nowhere el us to go 'cause of nashville. [smith] how does it affect your thinking about music, about your own performance or your own collaborations?

[mo'] it was like a fresh start. [smith] it was. [mo'] it didn't change my work style. it didn't change who i was, anything. but i found a whole fresh bunch of writers to collaborate with, musicians to collaborate with and a fresh perspective in doin' it there. [smith] so the work product, will we see, will we see asdifferent work produc result of there than we would have, had you not left the west coast? will we see asdifferent work pro[mo'] yes, i believe so. but i don't see it as much different because i was already rooted in country and r&b and blues. nothinally changed. [smith] the physic t location is not goiaffect that. [mo'] no, but the people around. but also, you can always fi a really good pedal steel player in nashville. mith] well, it's a littleasier . [mo'] you can find great mandolin players. u can find guys that are really masterful. i mean, the musicianship and the songwriting ill is just masterful. [smith] right, they have reasonable dexterity-- [mo'] yes. (chuckles) [smith] as you like to say, (audience chuckles)

in nashville. so you're on the road, touring. u tour a lot, right? you're on the road all the time. [mo'] yeah, i do. th] and you enjoy it. this is one of the things that i always ask musicians. do you prefer recording, or do you prefer touring? [mo'] it's all the same thing. [smith] it's all the same thing. o sides of the same coin, isn't it? [mo'] yes. [smith] right. do you tour to s records, or do you make records so you have something ttour? [mo'] it's all the same thing. [smith] again,he same thing. it's not one side or another side. [mo'] you tour to support the record. it's not one side you make the record to support the tour. you play the meoic to connect to thee that will come to the-- [smith] well, fortunately, you have something to sell now. you don't have to go to kinkos anymore and fold up paper, right? (laughs) you've already got a product. [mo'] i would do it though. (chuckles) (audience laughs) [smith] i get a sense. the gleam in your eye, reporting that you made $1,000 t tells me that if you h go back to kinkos again-- [mo'] the thing is, i wanted to, after a ng time, 'cause i had a record in 1980 called "rainmaker" by kevin moore, th

[smith] yeah, right. (audience laughs) that was a harrowing experience of like, gettin' kicked out of the record business. i knew that if i wanted to be in the record business, i had to go in on my own. i didn't go ask for a record deal. e when they said no, it would've crushed me. i'm a sensitive guy. i'm not a big, strong, tough guy. oumith] you'd rather havecontrol, also, of your own deal, right? [mo'] my own destiny. want to determine, i, not want to, but i decided to decide what was gonna happen for me. it wasn't about numbers. it wasn't about how many people i could reach, how much money i could make. it was about, this ishere next, thatoment that you asked about earlier in the interview. that was the aha moment when i'm goin', "okay, now you're 39, sucker." and so, there's no goin' back on that. [smith] that's great. [mo'] you know, so it was like, i could've quit and done somethin' else, right then.

[smith] yeah well, thank god you didn't. [mo'] i decided to keep goin'. [smith] it's a great story. you're a very charming guy. it's nice to see people who deserve to succeed, succeed. [mo'] well, thank you. [smith] you've had a great career. let's hope that you continueo. [mo you have a christmassmith] you record coming out?eer. [mo'] yes, i do. [smith] what was the, we hke 30 seconds. what's the short version of that story? [mo'] it's a christmas reco, and it's, the title is "moonlight, mistletoe and you." (audience chuckles) [smith] new songs? [mo'] yeah, new songs, classic songs, you know. and it, i love it. there's this oth non-christmas ng oe. [smith] how great. [mo'] it's just, the i can't wait for none christmas tour. because i got this record now. [smith] okay good. [mo'] listen to the song, udhristmas is annoying." nce laughs) [smith] christmas may be annoying, but you are not. keb' mo', thank you so ch, really enjoyed it. give him a hand. (audience applauds) keb' mo', thank you. we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit ver website at klru.orgeard

to find invitations to interviews, en q&as with oursite at au and guests and an archive of past episodes. (upbeat bandusic) [mo'] some people will practice all day. some people will practice once a week. some people will practice for 15 or 10 mutes a day. for me, i was not one of the, maybe one day, i played all day. i was very inconsient. but i was consistent in the fact that i kept going, and i never gave up. [annovncer] funding for heard with evan smith provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by lnd john beckworth, the hobby family foundation. (tinkling electronic music)

captioning performed by the national captioning institute, is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org robert: it was washington, but not in american politics. >> they have nothing. >> no crime. bert: predent trump is in florida and the fight over his nate trial continues. anea as the yr end that's far from the only h battle thate faces. >> we need to restore the integrity. >> if the president claims that he is so innocent, why doesn't he have all the president's men testify.. robert: ne >> this is "washinon week."nu ing is provided b -- >> before we talkou about investments. >> what's new? >>