[female narrator] funding for "overheard with evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stua, and by laura and john beckworth, the hobby family foundation. [evan smith] i'm evan smith. he's a four-time grammy award-winning blues musician whose latest album is "oklahoma." he's a four-time grammy award-w he's keb' mo'.sician this is "overheard." (upbeat electronic music) (audience applauds) let's be honest. is this about the ability to learn, or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa? you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. u know, you saw a problem and, over time, took it on. let's star wwith the sizzle befoe get to the steak. are you gonna run for president? i think i just an f from you, actually. (audience rdughs) this is "overh (audience applauds)

[smith] keb' mo'welcome. [keb' mo'] thank you, evan. [smith] good to be with you. [mo'] it's good to be here. [smith] may i say,i don't e i've had a two-apostrophe guest in 17 years? (laughs) time for everything, right? [mo'] yes. [smith] for the record, it's kevin moore. [mo'] yes, that's my birth ne. [smith] birth name is kevin moore. [mo'] kevin roosevelt moore. [skevin roosevelt moore. we have a former drummer of yours to thank for chris' ning you or coining k', right? [mo'] yes. [smith] tell that story. [mo'] well, the was a band called the billy mitchell trio, and quentin dennard was the drummer in that band. they played at a club called the nucleus nuance in l.a., durin' the late '80s and '90s. they didn't have a guitar player because it was a jazz trio. so i would go in and play for free. my job was to play along with the band. it wasn't really a job,

[smith] it was a gig. [mo'] whener i felt like it. and i would play the blues. when it was blues time, i was on. so then, they'd go, "keb' mo', all right!" so with kevin, you can't go like, (laugh [smith] kevin moore is not much of a blues name. ore like an accountant. [mo'] yes. [smith] right, i get that. (audience laughs) so, keb' mo', that's it. [m] keb' mo'. [smith] and it stuck. [mo'] yeah. [smith] let's start about los angeles. i wanna start, actually, in the revlyse order i would ordinatart. i'd want to talk about the record first, and we'll get to the record, eventually. but i wanna talk about the origin story here ofeb' mo'. so you grew up in los angeles? [smith] city of compton. your parents, actually, were not from los angeles. they were from the deep south, right? [mo'] yes, they were from, my mother was frks, texas, and my father was from heflin, louisiana. [smith] yeah, do you remember listening to music as a kid, in the house or? [mo'] we had s records in the house. i remember like, the first record we had, not thfirst record we had,

but the record that i would listen to a lot warenot what you think the rd i'd be listening to. i listened to johnny mathis' "greatest ts." [smith] well, nothing wrong. (audience laughs and applauds) if we age on nothing else, let's agree, nothing wrong with johnny mathis, right? [mo'] johnny mathis' "greatest hits" was a great album. [smith] that's a great record. [mo'] it stayed on the charts fer, it was a great record with great songs and great production. so that was part of my introduction into music. [smith] did you know from an early age that this is what u wanted to do? i know there are a lot of stories about u as a young kid, you know, going to get your first guitar. i've heard, in fact, you interviewed on the subje of buying your first acoustic guitar and then, buying your first electric guitar, i think in a pawshop, right? [mo'] yes. [smith] in comon, right? i've heard that story. i know that you kinda kicked around e and played at a young with so. but i wonder what got you to think, this is something wanna do? [mo'] hmm, that's a long decision.

because i wasn't one of these guys that was like, "that's what i'm gonna do!" [smith] yeah, you didn't have a momt of revelation, right, and that was it. [mo'] but it was in my late 30s. [s (audience murmurs) th] in your late 30s? [mo'] when the actual moment of revelation came. [smith] right, so for the time being. [mo'] i started out, [smith] coaxed, really? "hey, you wanna come play?" myinirst experience was plthe trumpet in the fifth grade at general secrans elementary school. my mother said, "do you nnaoltc "you wanna play music?" (audience chuckles) and i said, she looked and she, you didn't say no to my mother. (a [smith] right. ience laughs)d she, i'm noasking. i'm telling, right? [mo'] she says, she says, she says, "oh! "well, you gonna play something." (laughs) [smith] your mother was everybody's mother, i have to say. we've all had a version of that story. t. [mo'] so i w ey tried me out, and i we've all had a ended up on the trumpet. the following year we moved, and i went ta new school.

they kicked me out of the band 'cause my grades weren't good enough. they were good at the other school, e next school was kinda like, different deal. so kicked out of the band. and that's the house that we stayed in for the next, that house is, [smith] still? [mo'] yeah, that house, i bought that house when i was in compton. so we stayed there, and on tunt blk was chuck t. he had a steel band, playing music from trinidad, calyo music. [smith] calypso music, right, yeah. [mo'] and his son, carlos, who is still my good buddy today, who lives in the neighborhood, he says, "hey, come down. "i wanna show you these drums." edanwhile, i just got kiut of the band. he started playin' these drums, tand he said, "look s," he says. he played somethin'," da da da da da da da da. anst played it right after, daga daga daga daga dag (laughs)

and so, i guess hi idad got wind of thould, you know, could do that. [smith] we need you to come play with us, right? yeah! [mo'] yeah, so next thing, i'm in there, playin' a steel band now. [smith] right, it's johnny mathis, and the steel band, calypso music. over time you'yed blues. you've played what i think of really, as almost something like roc'n' roll. you've had jazz, elements of jazz in your music, over time. it's really hard to put you in a bucket or oneory, right? that you're this kind, i mean, i called you a blues musician that's true, but not accurate. really, you're a lot more than just-- [mo'] well, there's not really such thing as a bluesian-- [smith] right. [mo'] --or jazz musician. [smith] how do you talk about yourself, or how do about the work that you do? [mo'] i'm a musician, but i don't think of myself as a master musician. i know music. i'm not a virtuoso on any particular instrument, but i know music. i know how it't. i know the theory. i know the math of it. i have aexeasonable amount ofrity on a guitar

and a banjo, or a mandolin, things like that. [smith] right, you're being very modest. you have more than a reasonable amount of dexterity. (laughs) [mo'] clearly, you haven't heard tommy emmanuel. (chuckles) [smith] well look, i think that if you go back, 25 years since your first record, we g and listen to that record today. there is more than just a reasonable amount of dexterity. we g and listen and that was then, right? over time, obviously, you're a different musician than you were back then. o'] what i love is songwriting. you know, i think the songwriting factor, all that leads up to there. like i say, i was ways coaxed into things. i could tell you story after story, but just know that i wasn't the impetus for the goin' in there, you know. but i losic. i always loved music. i'm really thankful for those people who did invite and coaxme intos because i wouldn't be standing here now without them.

[smith] well, no success is your success. it's ee's success. all of us feel that way, right? everybody contributed to it. [mo'] yeah, so i played the steel drums, and then inchigh school, i played fhorn. so i was in the compton community youth or compton. actually, when i was in compton, we had, there was a symphony in compto it was a junior symphony in the 60s, in compton, and i was in i 'cause was very first french horn at the high school, and the first french horn person got to go play in the orchestra. [smith] it's amazing, french horn. [mo'] yeah (chuckles) [smith] probably all over the country, there are kids who are thinking, i'm playing the french horn inchool. this is going to amount to nothing. this is like being a math major. [mo'] yeah, and but i was in the band. it wasn't about the-- [smith] well, if you're around the stuff, that's what happens, right? [mo'] it's about being in the band. i met these two guys, and they were in the band, playing french horn. i was hangin' with them. they said, "why don't you come? "they may nether french horn player. "why don't you play it?" it was not glamorous. french horn was not glamorou mith] yeah, i can imagine.

it's not glamorous, right, yeah. it's the french horn. [mo'] i hadn't been playing trumpet for years,nd that was. the teacher said, "okay, here! "it's the french horn. "get in line!" (audience chuckles) and i was in the marching band. "get in line!" [smith] that's pretty great. [mo'] (laughs) [smith] what was your way, keb', intoiche business, [sminto the musiness? great. you started out not actually as a performer. yohestarted out working inusiness, but not performing, right? [mo'] i was performing. the steel band had gigs. [smith] but i'm talking about the real, like honest-to-goo music business, recording business, right. [mo'] oh, that started in dallas, texas, when i was in a play called "spunk" at the dallas repertory theater. i was a guitar man in that thing. i was playing acoustic, you know, country blues part and singing. a woman came up and asked if i had anything to sell. her name wky. she said, "do you have anything to sell?" i said, "no." sh, "why don't you have anything to sell? "what do you mean, you don't have anything to sell?" she just like, just reamed my you-know-what

about not having anything to sell. so i got somethin' to sell. i toe of my tapes that i had brought with me, and i put them together-- [smith] put it together. [mo'] --and went to a udio in dallas. had 'em run off a hundred cassettes. i had a guy draw up a little character of me. i went te kinkos, put it on a pi paper, (audience laughs) put it in there, folded it up and put it in there, cut it just right and then-- th] total diy deal, right, yeah. [mo'] i did a hundred of those-- [smith] hundred of those-- [mo'] and put 'em up. [smith] arted selling them. [mo'] and i sold all of them. i made $1,000! [smith] did you? (audience laughs) you probably thought in a million years, right? [mo'] and that's the point when i was in the music business! (laughs) (aience applauds) [smith] $1,000 is real money, right? mio'] that's right. ] that's real money. so you've just had your first studio album, solo studio album come out in the summer of 2019, in five years, right? first studio album in five years, right, "oklahoma"? [mo'] no, i have a solo one called "blues americana." [smith] but that was 2014. [mo'] oh yeah, yeah, you're right.

[smith] so it's five years. at [mo'] you're better ath than i am. (audience laughs) [smith] there's a lotta things you can do that i can't do, beginning with the french horn. but i know that it's been five years since the last rord, and i think people were waiting around to see what this was. this is a really prettyerrific record, this record "oklahoma." [mo'] oh, thank you so much. [smith] there are so many songs on it. i med to you, before we came out here, that when i've listened to the record, they've stuck in mhead. i find myself thinking about the songs when i'm not listening to it. would lk a little bit about how this record came to pass? i mean, there are a lot of interesting stories about this record. one thing is that it's mom.ur mom passed away last yea- [mo'] yeah. [smith] --right? it's got personal aspects to it, i understand. rd but talk about this rend why it's called "oklahoma." [mo'] okay well, it started out, i called my friendolin linden. i said, "man, i'm tired. "come help me make this record." "come, you know,me." so he coproduced with me. i sent him the s i went through all my computer and looked at all these things that i had written. i said, "aw." i'm thinking, i'm gonna have to write a whole album inwo weeks. colin calls me back.

he says, "i n't know, man. "i think you got a record here." you know? [smith] that's how this works for those of us who arenot in . you have a file on your computer where you just keep things that you're working on, ideas. [mo'] throughout the year, there'll be writing sessions. you work with these tha people, everything. ideas. [smith] so you don't just write when you have an album coming out. wr you just write when yoe, and you just save it. [mo'] all the time, you always write. you're always writin', and then you have it. [smith] you're puttin' it in a pipeline-- [mo'] mm-hmm. [smith] --right? [mo'he story about "oklahoma," to me, is the most interesting thing about the album. why is it called "oklahoma"? so it was originally gonna be called "this is my home." but "oklahoma" came up. the way it happened is, i had this idea, this riff, goin' dang dang dang adanga adanga da blanga da blanga. about two weeks around christmas time. i'm goin', "i like playing this. "it just feels good to play it. "iit needs a hook." i'm goin', "okay." i was in l.a. at my sister's house. i'm i'm goin',ay." ♪ oklahoma i was like, "oh that's crap!"

(laughs) [smith] you have no connection pernally to the state of oklahoma, right? [mo'] yeah, i do have. i'll gay to that. [smith] i thought the fact that it was "oklahoma" was kind of this odd thing for that reason. [mo'] i'll get into that. [smith] okay, good. [mo'] i'll get into that. so i got this idea. new year's day, i have a party. my wife and i have a party at the house every year, and we invite everybody over. ot food, liquor, music, everying. everyby just comes over. bring anybody you want and, you know, like that. my drummer, marcus finnie, when i do have a band, he says, "i want you toet this. "you should write with her." you know what i mean? and i'm goin', "okay, now that i got this record, "i don't have any songs." so, i give it to her, and she comes over like the next day. "where are you from?" she says, "oklahoma." (audience chuckles) bing! (chuckles) [smith] right, that's divine inteon. [mo'] so i've got an idea now, "oklahoma."

what about this? let's just work on this. i explained to her that i didn't have much of a conction. so we on the wikipedia (audience chuckles) and started lookin' at stuff and thinkin' about, at's happenin' in oklahoma? i knew, i had been to okla afteath now of a tornado, that's a big one. i went tith kenny wayne shepherd. we did a benefit. [smith] did a benefit concert. i remember that, right. [mo'] kenny yne shepherd, robert randolph. like i said, we did a benefit. i was like, "oh, a tornado is no joke." (chuckles) that thing grinds like a meat grinder, but it's not meat. it's wood and steel andjust. [smith] destruction left's so bad. [mo'] it's so bad, definitely. al g, i became friends with brooks and vince gill, guys from oklahoma. i started meetin' all these people from oklahoma. i started really lookin' at the people even my favorite guitar player that i grew up with, david t. walker, was born in oklahoma,ople timmy b. schmit from the eagles.

oklahoma is a state of great things. [smith] so you have a connection to oklahoma-ish. [mo'] it's a connectio but i kinda like had to dig and build it. [smith] right, i'm a littlrried you wrote the song basedipn what you read on wia. (audience laughs) this is actually, this has stuck with me. [mo'] no, no i know people and the people were in the area, i'm thinkin' like. garth brookslike, and vinc, those are some of the most down-to-earth, shameless, good people i've ever met. you know, oklahoma, you know? shameless, good people so i go,r met. we write tg. and there's also, the gap band is from oklahoma too, just so you know that. ♪ you dropped a bomb on me baby ♪ (laughs) so there's all that good stuff. [smith] there's good things in oklahoma. i agree. [mo'] charlie's from oklahoma. [smith] i get it. i get it. [mo'] uncle charlie. [smith] so this is a record that actually, i don't think of you as a political-- [mo'] oh, i'm political. - but i don't think of you as a political-- but you're not an expresy. oh look, you're not of ani difranco, right? you're not a political artist in the sense of that you wear your politics on your sleeve-- [mo'] no, i hide it. you [smith] you hide it.rtist

but you know, but there is a, [mo'] no, i hide it. i detected, i thought, a subtle but unmistakable political vibe on this record. [mo'] yeah. [smith] a little bit about the envibonment, a little bit feminism and the place of women in society today. you have a collaboration on this record [smith] --a song called "put a woman in charge," right? it's a really interesting and od song. and there's actually a discussion of immig ytion-- [mo'] immigratioh. [smith] and the fact that you said, which i did not know until you said it, that you had intenthe reco d "this is"-- [mo'] "my home." [smith] "this my me." you actually have a perspective on what's happening now, out in the world-o'] y. [smith] "this my me." [smith] --about immigration as a subject. i think it's subtly visible. talk about that. i think that'sally interes. [mo'] that's right. i put the subject of immigration as a love story, not as a talt people who come here, not goin' right at the issue. i wanted to humanize immigration, in a sense. i think you walk away from it-- o'] even in "oklahoma," there's a big political thing

in too that everybody misses. [smith] well, help us, give us the easter egg. show us the easter egg in the song. [mo'] it's the bridge where i go like, "and over on greenwood, archer and pine." [mo'] it's the bridge whe in the '20s, in oklahoma, back then, it was called black wall street. and ths this community in wall street where ese ex-slaves, you know, african americans had figured out how to do buness. they had a community. probably a lot of it was because of segregation. and like people, you had to havur own stuff. but word has it thatdollaro because of segregation. around the community 30 times. and the community became very prosperous. and then on the other side of the tracks, in another part of tulsa, oklahoma, you think about racial tension back then. this is the '20s. so... some black men got accusedf,

you know, usually the thing of inappropriately something with a white woman. [smith] right. and burnt and bombed the place down. [smith] wow, so that's the reference. [mo'] yeah, and ike. it was squashed down in history for a few years, not in any history books. was very quiet, but it was the biggest race riot there er was. [smith] well, this record, whether you are interested in the politics of it or not, rdis a really great reo listen to. i wish you a lot of success with it. can i ommpletely pivot away usic for a second and ask you about your love of hats? (audience chuckles) [mo'] yeah, man. well, back in-- [smith] that's a nice hat. i like that hat. [mo'] i started goin' bald in, um, 1970. [smith] is that right? [mo'] yeah, and i ald very slowly. [smith] i was about to say, you have been successful

in the getting bald ment. [mo'] yeah, no. [smith] you are successfully bald now. [mo'] but it was likeeally slow. i mean, i had hair 'til my mid-30s and late 40s, not late, my 40s. and it gradually, it finally just got. i just kept lower, cuttin' it lower and lower and lower. finally got to the point where i was, "oh, this is ridiculous, dude." juve it all off. and then, it looks like this now. (audience chuckles) [smith] yeah. (audience applauds) [mo'] i just need somethin', i just need somethin' to block out the light from my head, shinin'. (audience laughs) [smith] but you said to me again, before we came out today, this kinda really caught my ear. i wanted to ask you abt this. you said, "buying a hat is an arduous task." [mo'] yes. [smith] we could do 30 minutes on this. why don't you do a shorter version of it? [mo'] well, my friend, colin linden, he alws says. he's very, you know, manly like im, know, on the top of the head. [smith] quite bald. [mo'] he says, so i mean, when you go lookin' for your hat,

this becomes your haircut. th [smith] right well,'s inte. lookin' for your hat, [mo'] this is like, you know. this becomes your, you know, either you can wear this. this is cool or you can wear this. but this is like a haircut now. if you've ever had a bad haircut, you know-- [smith] sometimes, the answer to a bad haircut is a hat, actually. [mo'] yeah. (chuckles) [smith] as the case may be. [m s] just wait and ju 'em. so it's like that. so buyin' a hat the right shape, brim. [swell, it's become a signature piece of your own style. we don't associate you with anyining other than having ahat on. [mo'] and you can't find 'em, i can't find a bunch of hats 'cause i have a really long head, too. becauseythere's some of 'em, aid, "here come kevin with the ol' football head." (audience laughs) [smith] i wouldn't have made the football head reference myself, but now i'm not gonna be able, not be able to-- [mo'] (laughs) [smith] t's talk about a couple of things on you as we wrap here. the first thing is, you are no longer livin los angeles, right,ull-time?

you have-- [m] i have a house in, not full-time but part-time, 'cause ionave a house in com [smith] but you're living primarily in tennessee? [mo'] tennessee. franklin, tennessee. [smith] why this is again, you know. it's not the deep south in the sense that your parents were. but it's the south though. [mo'] well, my wife is from wisconsin. we he a 12-year-old son. is i was, um,sin. she didn't like the attitude of los angeles, whatever. she didn't like somethin', somethin' she didn't like. she's, "well, it's too crowded," whatever. and she tells me one day with teary eyes, she goes, "i don't wanna raise son here." (audience chuckles) and i went, oh snap. (laughs) okay, honey. [smith] 'cause you've been in that situation. i know. [smith] where are we goin'? [mo'] i saw the movin' trucks, comin'. (chuckles) [smith] but you're in franklin, tennessee. [mo'] yeah. [smith] but does being in nnessee, which is obviously a rich musical tradition in the state of tennessee. [mo'] well, there was nowhere el us to go 'cause of nashville. [smith] how does it affect your thinking about music,

about your own performance or your own collaborations? [mo'] it was like a fresh start. [smith] it was. [mo'] it didn't change my work style. it didn't change who i was, anything. i found a whole fresh bunch of writers to collaborate with, musicians to collaborate with and a fresh perspective in doin' it there. [smith] so the work product, will we see, will we see asdifferent work produc result of there than we would have, had you not left the west coast? will we see asdifferent work pro[mo'] yes, i believe so. but i don't see it as much different because i was already rooted in countrynd r&b and blues. nothinally changed. [smith] the physic t location is not goiaffect that. [mo'] no, but the people around. but also, you can always fi a really good pedal steel player in nashville. mith] well, it's a littleasier . [mo'] you can find great mandolin players. u can find guys that are really masterful. i mean, the musicianship and the songwriting skill is just masterful. [smith] right, they have reasonable dexterity-- [mo'] yes. (chuckles)

[smith] as you like to say, (audience chuckles)hey have in nashville. so you're on the road, touring. u tour a lot, right? you're on the road all the time. [mo'] yeah, i do. th] and you enjoy it. this is one of the things that i always ask musicians. do you prefer recording, or do you prefer touring? [mo'] it's all the same thing. [smith] it's all the same thing. o sides of the same coin, isn't it? [mo'] yes. [smith] right. do you tour to s records, or do you make records so you have something ttour? [mo'] it's all the same thing. [smith] again,he same thing. it's not one side or another side. [mo'] you tour to support the record. it's not one side you make the record to support the tour. you play the meoic to connect to thee that will come to the-- [smith] well, fortunately, you have something to sell now. you don't have to go to kinkos anymore and fold up paper, right? (laughs) you've already got a product. [mo'] i would do (audience lanshs) [smith] i get a the gleam in your eye, reporting that you made $1,000 tells me that if you had to go back to kinkos again-- [mo'] the thing is, i wanted to, after a long time, 'cause i had a record in 1980 cled "rainmaker"

by kevin moore, the accountant kevin moore. [smiah, right. (audience laughs) that was a harrowing experience of like, gettin' kicked out of the record business. i knew that if i wanted to be in the record business, i had to go in on my own. i didn't go ask for a record deal. e when they said no, it would've crushed me. i'm a sensitive guy. i'm not a big, strong, tough guy. oumith] you'd rather havecontrol, also, of your own deal, right? [mo'] my own destiny. want to determine, i, not want to, but decided toecide what was gonna happen for me. it wasn't about numbers. it wasn't about how many people i could reach, how much money i could make. it was about, this is where next, thatoment that you asked about earlier in the interview. that was the aha moment when i'm goin', "okay, now you're 39, sucker." d so, there's no goin' back on that. [smith] that's great. [mo'] you know, so it was like,

i could've quit and done somethin' else, right then. [smith] yeah well, thank god you didn't. [mo'] i decided to keep goin'. [smith] it's a great story. you're a very charming guy. it's nice to see people who deserve to succeed, succeed. [mo'] well, thank you. [smith] you've had a great career. let's hope that you continue to. you have a christmas record coming out? mi [mo'] yes, i do. let' ] what was the,continue to. we have like 30 seconds. what's the short version of that story? [mo'] it's a christmas record, and it's, the title is "moonlight, mistlee and you." (audience chuckles) [smith] new songs? [mo'] yeah, new songs, classic songs, you know. and it, i love it. there's this one non-christmas ng on there. [smith] how great.[mo'] it, and it, i love it. i can't wait for the christmas tour because i got th record now. [smith] okay good. [mo'] listen to the song, "christmas is annoying." (audience laughs) [smith] christmas may be annoying, but you are not. keb' mo', thank you so much, really enjoyed it. give him a hand. (audience applds) keb' mo', thank you so keb' mo', thank you.it. we'd love to have you join us in the studio.

visi/oour website at klru.orheard toerind invitations to iews, q&as with our audience and guests and an archive of pisodes. (upbeat bandusic) [mo'] some people will pctice all da some people will practice once a week. some people will practice for 15 or 10 mines a day. for me, i was not one of the, maybe one day, i plad all day. i was very inconsistent. but i was consistent in the fact that i kept going, and i never gave up. [announcer] fuing for overheard with evan smith provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by lnd john beckworth, the hobby family foundation. (tinkling electronic music)

captioning sponsored by wnet >> mitchell: on this edition for sunday, december 29: a deadly shooting at a texas church. the latest on the attack in new york targeting orthodox jews attending a hanukkah celebration.at and a look bacome of our stories from this year. next on pbs newshour weekend. >> pbs newshour weekend is made possible by: bernard and irene schwartz. iisue and edgar wachenheim the cheryl and philip milstein family. rolind p. walter, in memor of george o'neil. barbara ho zuckerberg. charles rosenblum. we try to live in the moment,

to not miss what's right in