[female announcer] funding for "overheard with evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by laura and john beckworth, hobby family foundation. [evan smith] i'm evan smith, he's an award winning poet whose memoir, "how we fight for our lives" has st been published. he's saeed jones, this is "overheard." (upbeat music) smith] let's be honest, i this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen othernati? you could say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. you know, you saw a problem and over time,ook it on. let's with the sizzle before we get to the steak. are you gonna run for esident? i think i just got an f from you, actually. (laughing) this is "overheard." (audience applauding)

[smith] saeed jones, welcome. [saeed jones] thank you, hey! [smith] and congratulations-- [jones] thank you so much. [smith] --s. i think it's an enorms accomplishment. as i shared with you before we came out,k. i don't like anything. (laughing) i'm not moved by anything. [jones] ok. [smith] i'm totally off. [jones] oh you're elsa. [smith] well, sure ok. [jones] cold. [smith] the second time i read this book, i got teary. because i really think that it is as moving a story, even though your story is not everybody's story, everybody's story is not your story. i'll come back to this in a second, the universality of it, the fact that we all see in oursea time in our lives when we were trying to figure out who we were. because reallythat's what - [jones] yes, that is it, that's the work. [smith] that's what the book is about. why did you decide to write it? basic question. [jones] i think like many writs, we write to understand. we write because we're curious and interested in something that happened. somethat i struggled with though, as i was growing up, and you see this a bit in theook, was that i knew i wanted to be a writer.

and you see this a bit ii knew.k, but as i was struggling to come into an understanding of my identity, my race, sexuality,ender, and really struggling with depression and self-hate, to be honest, the impulses collided. and so when i was younger, i would stay in dangeroit rooms, figurative andal, use i was like "well, i can write about this. "and doesn't that mean i'm in control of what's going on?" and so i struggle with that. but that's a problem, that's a problem. and so i rthlized i wanted to writbook when i felt i had a different intention. [smith] so are you writing yourselfk out of the room essentially? [jones] writing myself out of the room, and explaining why out for other people.tially? [smith] so it is for other people. d again, i think there's something that all of us can take from this book. but it sounds to me like, what i suspected, you also wrote tally for you as much as for us, right? [jones] sure, i think certainly a memoir, right, and making sense of it. and the challenges of writing a memoi

it's just instructive. because you have to fully flesh yourself out and other characters, and the landscape. i can't juew say "yeah i grew up inville" and you've got it, most people will never be in lewisville, nessarily. i have to bring it to life, and that creative act, you learn from it. and then more memories start to come. memory is an unreliable narrator. you're grappling with youmemories. we incorrectly remember things, intentionally and uninnally, all the time. and so in the five years in earnest that i was writing the book, from the time i sold it and then publishing it, i'm glad i'm a slow writer. because it allmemories to p and have time to really separate-- [smith] you had to work through that. ones] i did. [smith] you bring up a couple of good points about writing memoirs. first thing is that sometimes your own memory is unreliable, you're an unreliable narrator. [jones] yes![smith] of your ow. [jones] we are all the unreliable narrators.

[smith] how certain are you, since this is presented to us as your story, how certain are you that your memories are, by the time we read it, reliable? [jones] i think they're reliable in the sense that i'm pretty straightforward in terms of my own reliability. and i say there's some really important, high intensity moments in the book and i go, "ipeon't remember what hd next. "i don't remember what e said, i wish i did." [smith] but the conversations recounted, at least reflect what happened. [jones] they reflect what ppened. [smith] there are no composite char, right? [jones] right. [smith] it's a true story. [jones] yeah, and you know, sure. about what ion't remember, because i'm already asking a lot of you as a reader in that i'm using fictive techniques. i'm creating dialogue, right? and so i'm trying to do my bes but you try to rein it in. that's why i try to be very intentional and sparin dialogue because listen, most of us, we're lucky if we can remember a few words from a specific conversation-- [smith] that happened today! [jones] today, this morning. [smith] today, right as opposed to going back many years. [jones] years later, totally. [smith] the other part about writing a memoir, at, i've not written a memoirand would imagine

it would be difficult for a lot of reasons. but at least because you're forced to access things that you'd just as soon not remember, or access. so how much self-editing did you do of the diffiparts of your ? having read this book a couple of times, it dersn't seem like you leftmuch out. (laughing) or anything that was difficult, let me say it this way, that you didn't shy away from recounting things that were difficult, in fact, that almost seems to have been the poin [jones] it was the point. [smith] rit. [jones] the idea ofms to difficult subject matter, i understand it as reader, i do. and i recorded the audiobook earlier this summer. and i've gotta tell you,reak was a totally different experience. [smith] harder or easier? [jones] harder. reading the ook was the first time i got choked up. [smith] saying the words out loud. [jones] mm hmm, oh my gosh, saying what that pastor says. [smith] yeah. [jones] saying things my grandmother and i, we said to each other.at was d. and the last chapter, that was the only time. we said to each other.at was d. but as a writer, i don't feel that way. what was difficult was writing about my mother,

she's not alive anymore. [smith] right. and i want to honor that love, and being respectful. [smith] she passed a while ago. [jones] she passed away in 2011. [smith] right, so she's of course, not seen the book. [jones] yeah, yeah, so i feel respectful to her. [smith] what would she say about this book? how would she feel abo it? [jones] hmm! interesting. [smith] before we came out today, we talked about the facthat your grandmother who's a significant character in this book, youricncle who is a less signt character, but is important. [jones] he's there. [jones] they're still with us. they read the book. [smith] they've read the book. your mother never got the opportuny to read it. what would she say about it? [jones] well she knew that i was going to write a book one day. when i wasaduate school, she called me, and she said "i told grandma you're writing a memoir one day "and i explained what it was." and i was like, "uh," and i froze in my trks on college campus, where i was in graduate school at rutgers, and i said "what did she say?" and she id "uh oh!" (laughing) [smith] she said "uh oh." (laughing) [jones] that's what mildred said! uh oh, that was it. so i think my mom was aware of my intentions, that it was a goal down the line. you know, it's hard.

i hope i made her proud. one of my goals wamake it clear that my mothermy grandmother, they are not literary devices, they are people. blk women in america fighting for their own lives. and i wanted to tell the sto, and of course, they're a part of what goes on. but i wanted the reer to understand that they have their own stories. iv and if my mom was maybe she'd go "oh maybe i'll write my own book now." [smith] maybe she'll tell her own story. llones] yeah. [smith] i think you're unsparing in your portrayal of your mother and grandmother, i don't mean that in a negative sense. i think that you're honest about it. you're not cruel tthem. you're not presenting them in a negative light. [jones] thank you. [smith] you're presenting them as who they are. we're all flaw. we all have challenges, we all deal with them the best wincan. [jones] yeah. (lau [smith] your mother's life was extraordinary 'cause for one thing, it gave you, as you very clearly say in the book, yoofare who you are becausho she was. [jones] yes. [smith] late in the book there's a line that ys something to the effect of "our mothers are who we all are." right? [jones] our mothers are why we are here. [smith] oh why were. [jones] yeah, yeah. [smith] we're all products of that.

we're all somebody's kid. [jones] yeah. [smith] and i think that in that respect, there's a lot of admiration for how she ised you and who she allowed you to become, and how you became who you were because of her. but at the samtrtime, it's an honest pal of the struggles that your mother had which are material in this book, as well. i think you gotta re [smith] they may be made a little uncomfortable by st ing it on the page, u know. [jones] yeah, i mean, it's interesting. i talked to my grandmother a few timeabout the book while i was writing it. [smith] while you were writing it. [jones] mm hmm. and she's very interesting. she has never attempted to reframe, make excuses, control the story. [smith] she is who she is. [jones] she's who she is. and when she read it, the first third of the book where, for my grandmother and i in particular, it's really fraught. i newhr told my mom about happened that summer with my grandmother and i, and it's intense. [smith] say in short, for the benefit people who have not yet read the book, explain what we're talking about. so my mom practiced nichiren buddhism, she chanted (speaking foreign language)

tina turner, you might know that, and the rest of our family super do not practice nichiren buddhism. [smith] right. about the opposite end of the sctrum. [jones] yeah, about as far away, devoly christian in different denominations. some of my earliesries are of my family arguing. like me beint enough to sit under the table and i just remember seeing everyone yelling and shouting about god and hell. and by the time i'm a teenager in the book, you see meero to memphis for the su as my mom, as single parent often st me home. [smith] where your grandmother lives. [jones] where my grandmother lived, in memphis. c were used to going rch every sunday and i didn't mind it. but that summer e started going to an evangelical pentecostal church as opposed to the black baptist church i was used to. that was a change. and i'm a teenager there. listte, any caregiver, any her, mentor, listen,

is scary, (laughing) andrealizing your kidere. is now becoming this other eity. they're getting bold, they're talking back, they're makinghoices. it's a lot, in america it's a lot. so i understand her anxiety. and i think se responded to it ing "we're gonna get you to church as much as possible." [smith] more church is the answer. [jones] more church is the answer. and so we were going to church suddenly, three or four nights a week not including sunday mornings. it was just a lot, i felt like it was all we did. [smid looking back now you don't begrudge her. [jones] i don't begrudge her, it was a mistake. it culminates in a terrible mistake. because at the begrudge end of the summer,ke. she takes me to the front of the church, takes me up to this man that i did not know. d i remember thinking about that, we've never even spoken. she says "this is my grandson, saeed. "his mother is buddhist." and he just nodded lthat was he would ever need to know about me, and my mother, who he also absolutely had not met, right? and he just stard to pray. and then he said "god, this boy's mother

"has gondown the path of satan "and decided to drag him down too." [smith] right. [jones] and speaking of dialogue, ngi do remember everyte said. [smith] that he said. [jones] i will remember it for the rest of my life. st i'll be dead and i'lll reme. [smith] that he said. he said "make her suffer." [smith] yeah. [jones] and he jusragoes on in this ela curse "rain your plagues, make her sick "so that she will ffer and realize "she's down the wrong path, and come back to the church "and ber son with her, amen, amen." that was the prayer,which . and so i draw that distinction because, oh my god, what cruelty. [smith] right. [jones] and i dore what you believe in, but if you're trying to persuade someone ifout your religion orphilosophy, that's not the way to do it. that your grandmother didn't wish this on you, herself.t. [jones] she didn't. i think, and i talk about this in the book. if you had asked her put your hand on the bible and testify, why did you just do that? i think she would've said because i love my grandson. becam trying to save his soul. that's why that part of the book,

there are hag, terrifying (laughing) sections in the book, but for me, that's theon that is most painful. because it's an act of love. and i think often, and we need to talk about this more, oftewe hurt, scare, or harm one another out of love! [smith] in the name of love, right. [jones] out of concern. america is scary. ra certainly if you are ing a black kid. certainly if you're raising gay kid. since i've been doing this book tour for the last few weeks, moms have come up to me and they talk about matthew shepard or thefftalk about atatiana son, young 28 woman-- [smith] in forth worth. [jones] in fort worth who was just shot and killed, and they're like "i am scared." and sometimes when we're scared, like my mother, we get silent. my mother and i had a vibrant relationship. but her response, i think to fear about having a gay black son was that she just couldn't talk about sexuality. thathe one silence. for my grandmother, her response was proactive. she was like "oh, ok, tha i will save his soul."

[smith] let's just take him to church. more church is the answer. [jones] more church. [smith] so this book is, in essence, a book about you coming to terms with and better understanding who you are. [jones] yes. [smith] right. [jones] when i said earlier that there was something universal about it, i sit here as straight whin who grew up in the northeast. you're a gay black man who grew up in texas. but there is a connection between us. and i connected with this book in part because we've all been through the process of discovering who we are. and so whether the narrative through linen your story is about sexual orientation, or it's about race, or it's about geography. [smith] because i think geography-- [jones] place is important. is really important in this book. nonetheless, what it's fundamentally about is understanding better who you are, discovering who you are. [jones] true, yeah. [smith] and that really is the point of this book. [jones] that's why it's "how we fight for our lives" not how i fought for my life. [smith] how you fought onr your life, right. ] because, and i'm so glad you draw attention to the, also you're the first straight white man who's gotten to interview me for the book. [smith] is that right? [jones] how's it feel? is it good for you? (laughing)

good for you! (laughing) [smith] i'm happy to have that superlative. [jones] you're welcome, you're welcome! [smith] thank you very much, great,eah. [jones] wear it well! but that's the thing because we all one through this process, and are still going through it, it never ends, this work and what we care about. and so whether you know it or not, you are fighti for your life. and i would argue that if you think you aren't, you've got a hell of a fight yet to come. [smith] an ealso if you think you'r done-- [jones] yeah! [smith] --with that process of understanding who yoare, you're wrong. because the fact is, the end of this book, [smith] figured it out, it's a work in progress. so you mentioned matthew shepard. u called out atatiana jefferson, but in the book you actually talk about also james byrd. [jones] yes. [smith] two things that were, i think, significant, they're mentioned in passing, -ish, in terms of understanding how you are understanding your environment-- [jones] absolute.

[smith] --were the dragging death of james byrdanding and the murder of matthew shepard. [jones] yes. [smith] and understanding how because you're gay you can be killed. because you're black you can killed. that's just enough. [jones] uh huh, that's enough. [smith] talk a little bit about those two as backdrops. [jones] iteresting because i knew the climax i knew that's where we were going to go as a writer and reader together. st organically, truly, i was like okay, so what are the soearliest iteration of of these themes when i started being aware? itand i just started g about the summer. these specific memories, and i looked it up. and i was like "oh, ok, may 1998. "ok, huh, what was, oh my gosh!" that's jasper, texas, that is four hours from lewisville-- [smith] lewisville which-- [jones] --texas, is where i grew up. [smith] where you grew up, which is jusnorth of dallas. [jones] yep, yep, just up i-35, right between denton and dallas. so that's where we're living when, i write about us watching it on the evening news, hearinthat he was beaten up and chained to the back of a truck

by three white men who offered him a ride home from work. they turned out to be whe supremacists. and they dragged him until his body was dismembered. [jones] for the sin of being and they dragged him until black, as they perceived it. his body actually desegregated that cemetery in jasper. and much like emmett till's memorial, whplh was just recently ed, it's been graffitied and covered in racial slurs over and over again. so that's june, and i'm watching that. i'm like "ok, well that's one bit of information." that october is whthew shepard, 21 years ago in laramieunwyoming meets two men at a bar and they're rike "hey, you want to going "and go hang out?" and they beat him and leave him for dead in a field. and of course, that became a national story. so it was like, i'm 12 years old, james byrd, jr. i'm 12 years old-- [jones] matthew shepard-- [smith] matthew shepard. [jones] i'm 12 years old, all of that is happening. [smith] it can't help but be context. [jones] yeah! [jones] i'm 12 years old, all of that is happening. and we have to understand this about young people. young people are always reading thamerican room.

they are always watching us. and certainly they have more media now than i did as a kid. so there's a whole 'nother level of social media. but they see what's the news. they hear what's coming on the radio. and i remember being in the car and hearing shock jocks say homophobic or racist things and people are laughing. and you turn around and you look, are other people laughg? is my mom laughing? no, ok, thank goodness. [smith] but remember-- [jones] you're paying attention to that. [smith] you're talking about 21 years ago. [jones] yeah. [smith] when byrd and epard were both killed, so 21 years later, the next generation of ki is even more aware. [jones] yes. [smith] is even more plugged in, [jones] i think so. [smith] connected. [jonesavi think so, some thingschanged. when i was 12, the idea of getting married one day to a man that i love was a fantasy. [smith] how 'bout a gay presidential candidate campaignong with his husband? ] who knew? who i might not even like! isn't that great? (laughg) i'm not required to agree with him

because of oo sexual identity, orree with some of the other candidates because of our racl, we havoptions! so things have changed, you know. marrf ge equality is a partr life. there is more representation. [smith] in fact, you talk in the book about obama being elected. it's not a pgoitical book as far as i, although it's obviously a political book. one of the moments that li more conventionally cal is oh, african american president. [jones] right, yeah. [smith] but again-- [jones] deep anxiety. [smith] vastly different. and yet also--ones] yeah, . because, by the time i'm a senior in college in kentucky, i went to western kentucky university, that collides with his history, it's right before he gets the nomination, right before iowa, actually. [smith] iowa, yeah. [jones] iowa caucus. and every morning i woke up terrified-- [smith] he would be assassinated. [jones] that he was gonna be asssinated, and in fact nestly, when he won, i remember the inauguration and they announced that michelle obama and back obama were going to walk through the parade. and i remember thinking, please don't do that. [smith] please don't do it. [jones] oh my gosh.

because again, i am a texas kid. and every texas kid has beeno the grassy knoll. (laughing) we have those images, and so i remember. [smith] you remember. [jones] yeah! so the joy of the breakthrough was temped, and look at us now! years after two terms of a black president. ok at how america responto thes, it's complicated. [smith] we seem to be worse than we were before, or at least we're saying the quiet part out loud. [jones] it's almoslike we're being punished for the breakthrough. i think that's how some people feel. [smith] can you talk about thsouth again? [jones] sure! (laughing) [smith] sense of place in this book is so important. if you had grown up in lewisville, maine, or lewisville, washington state, would the story be the same story, necessarily? [jonesldno, it couldn't, it ct. something i'm struck by, and i was talking with friends here last night that the thing about texas, of course, is that it was once a country. [smith] right. [jones] and so it rightfully has this outsized relationship to story that most states don't have, right?

it has a very dierent identity and a sense of importance. (laughing) [smith] importance or self-importance? [jones] self-importaand honw i was reading recently 'cause there are a lot of wonderful books right now about history, and the history of texas. and i learned recently annette gordon-reed, wonderful hin. [smith] yeah, great historian. [jones] she wrote about this for the new york review of books. and she noted that an outsized proportion of hugely important supremeteco. [smith] come from texas. [jones] and she plains that lawrence vtexas which i mention at some point in the book, that was the law, my junior year of high school, until my junior year of high school it was still technically legal for police officers to arrest men for having sex with men, my junior year! so i say all of that to say i think texas's identity in relationship to the rest of the country and my desire to write a book that was not just about my story, that was very self-aware and understanding that my story is a vital element of the american story,

just as texas is a vital element of america's identity, right? and that's complicated. i think that's where i got that from. when you're growing up in texas, and you're just living, you're always beingtyreminded n [smith] but don't you think though, that your story is part of the american story but the reason thbe it hasn't been told isuse . you've stepped up to tell . there are saeed jonses other places. [jones] true. [smith] who had similar stories and who have not had the platform or the gumption. [jones] yeah. and that's an importandistinction. people have been telling this story. people are doing tremendous work. i don't believe that people are voiceless. i think people in positions of pow don't wanna listen. or they're willfully-- [smith] it's about platforming. [jones] --silencing. [smith] of course. i think i'm very fortunate that for a book to resonate and reach an audience, it's not just about the book, it's about the time, it's aut the place, it's about the culture. and the stars do kinda have to align. but yeah, i think, and i mention this at one point

and poets, in paicular, who i think of as teachers on the page, died of hiv, aids, or poverty, or violence in their 20s, who didn't make it their early 30s. i'm 33 years old. they were doing the work. and i trust that they would still be writing and contributing to our culture now. i wahonor them. and certainly, i am a gay man. but i atve family members dentify as lgbt. i have a cousin who came out as trans. and she has happily and fiercely lived her life in dallas, texas in the dfw area, as long as i've known her, since she was tting me when i was a kid. and so i think it is important for me, and readers to understand my story and appreciate it. t understand it's just a part of a bigger story. [smith] and the fact is, because you told your story and have toln a way that has been so celebrated

and so visible, there are prably people in the generation behind you who are gonna feel empowered-- [ [jones] yeah, i hope sith] --now to tell their story. in that way, you're paying it forward. [jones] absolutely, absolutely. [smith] aren't you? we have just a le minuteseft. so you self-identify as a poet. [jones] yeah! [smith] right. [jones] it's a worstview. [smith] are yol a poet? [jones] yeah, i have to admit-- [smith] becaus is long form writing. [jones] it sure is, for me. [smith] it is very different. as successful as you were before, two previously published books of poetry, award-winning. you do this, sort of a little bit of a dog leg, right? do you simply go back to that? how do you view your writing life and your creative output now, after this? [jones] i think of poet as a worldview. image, and language are my two main lenses to the world. everything else es through that.uage and that comes from poetry. i will take poetry to whatever i do. i think it informs the way i play

and think on twitter, in my essays. in the book there is lyricism. there is a poem that opens the book. and i wanted to us i learned from poetry to color the emotional nuances of what's going on. because my prose is actually pretty matter-of-fact, right? the lyricism allows me to, i think, give you some emotional information. and then beyond that, i think-- te [smith] you didn't wyour memoi. emotional information. there's a reason-- [jones] i sure didn't, my goodness. [smith] well, the point i make is that sometimes i mean that's it. [jones] yes, yes. [smith] in this case, the long forsaeed has a bigger impact, right-- ] thank you. [smith] --than short form saeed. [jones] yeah, and i think, the weird thing about universali is that i think it's directly connected to specificity. and i think with poetry because you're emphasizing sound and image, you can't just be like, oh, and let me explain the pragmatic, the details. you begin to have to kind of tighten the le. and so i wanted to open up. i wanted to be able to kinda flesh out thisorld

in a way that prose allows me. [smith] so what do you dnext? [jones] i don't know! one, i think attention is wonderful. and it's bright, and i'm so honored. [smith] also, as you know, it's fleeting. [jones] it's fleeting, and it's loud! it's distracting! yeah. [jones] yok when people aren't paying attention. and whensthat you are writing atters so much to you no one is ever, i hope, gonna hold a gun to my headway. and say we need another poem! the poems come because i need them here. [smith] got it. [jones] so whaver comes next, things are gonna have to quiet down. ll write again, in whatever privacy i'm able to construct. [smith] i thinks someone should make a movie of this book. at[jones] ok! [smith] as my reaction. [jones] well-- [smith] so let's end [smith] let's see if that jams. (laughing) congratulations saeed, thank you so much. [jones] thank you so much. [smieed jones, give him a big hand. good, thank you. (applauding) mith] we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard

to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [jones] so for six years, i worked at buzzfeed news in new york city where i lived until recently. [jones] so for six years, i worked at buzzfeed news i edited, i ran a fellowship program. i was the first lgbt editoe. i started in january013 so it was right before those crucial supreme court decisions, s i did all of that, i iting, assigning, reporting, writing. [smith] yeah. [announcrd] funding for "overhith evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire andstuart, and by laura and john beckworth, hobby family foundation. (bright music)

robert: president trump purges his ranksnd exerts his power. president trump: we're drainings thewamp. i just never knew how deep the swamp was. robert: thentelligence community is rocked as the president installs loyalists. and the justice department faces new pressure as pardons areis ed. president trump: i'm actually the chief law enforcement officer of the country. robert: and looms -- president trump: roger has a very good chance of exoneration. robert: and in las vegas, tgl es comes off as mayor bloomberg t takes stage. and senator sanders rises. >> the best known socialist in the country happens to be a millionaire w t