[female announcer] funding for "overheardith evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, a texaulgovernment affairs concy, claire a carl stuart, anaura and john beckworth, hobby family foundation. [evan smith] i'm evan smith, he's an award winning poet whose memoir, "how we fight for our lives" has just been publishe he's saeed jones, this is "overheard." (upbeat music) [smith] let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how ha avoided what has befallen other nations in africa? but you caused him to sleepn it. you know, you saw a problem and over time, took it on. elet's start with the siz before we get to the steak. are you gonna run for president? i ink i just got an f from you, actually. ghing) this is "overheard." (audience applauding)

[smith] saeed jones, welcome. [saeed jones] thank you, hey! [smith] and congratulations-- [jones] thank you so much. [smith] --on this. i think it's an enormous accomplishment. [jones] thank you. [smith] of this book. as i shared with you before we came out, i don't like anything. (laughin i'm not moved by anything. [jones] ok. [smith] i'm totally closed off. [jones] oh you're elsa. [smith] well, sure ok. [jones] cold. [smith] the second time i read this book, i got teary. because i really think that it is as moving a story, [smith] the second time i read this book, i got teary. even though your story is not everybody's story, everybody's story is not your story. i'll com to this in a second, the universality of it, the fact that we all see in ourselves, a time in our lives when we rying to figure out who we were. because really that's what this-- [jones] yes, that is it, that's the work. [smith] that's what the book is about. why did you decide to write it? basic question. [jones] i think like many writers, we write to understand. we write because we're curious and intested in something that happened. something that i struggled with though, as i was growing up, and you see this a bit in the book, was that i knew i wanted to be a writer.

i knew. but as i was struggling to come into an underanding of my identity, my race, sexuality, gender, and really struggling with depression and self-hate, to be honest, the impulses collided. and so often when i wasger, i wy in dangerous rooms, figurative and literal, because i was like "well, i can write about this. "and doesn't tha i'm in control of what's going on?" ha and so i struggle with but that's a problem, that's a problem. and so i realized i wantedo write the book when i felt i had a different intention. [smithre you writing yourself out of the room essentially? [jones] writing myself out of the room, and explaihy for other people. [smith] so it is for other people. and again, i think there's something that all of us can take from th book. but it sounds to me like, what i suspected, you also wrote this really for you as much as for us, right? ones] sure, i think certainly a memoir, right, you're going into your own personal history and making sense of it. and the challenges of writing a memoir,

it's just instructive. because you have to fully flesh yourself out and other characters, and the landscape. i can't just say "yeah i grew up in lewisville" and you've got it, most people will never be in lewisville, necessarily. i have to bring it to life, and that creative act, you learn from it. and then more memories start to come. memory is an unreliable narrator. i think of it as a kind of tricksterigure. you're grappling with your memories. we incorrectly remember things, intentionally thd unintentionally, altime. and so in the five years in earnest that i was writing the book, from the time i sold it and then publishing it, i'm glad i'm awriter. because it allowed memories to come up and have time to really separate-- [smith] you had to work through that. [jones] i did.mith] you brp a couple of good points about writing memoirs. first thing is that sometimes your own memory is unreliable, you're an unreliable narrator. [jonr ] yes! [smith] of yn story. [jones] we are all the unreliable narrators.

[smith] how certain are you, since this is presented to us u as your story, how certain are that your memories are, by [smith] how certain are you, the time we read it, reliable? [jones] k they're reliable in the sense that i'm pretty straightforward in terms of my own reliability. and i say there's some really important, high intensity moments in the book and i go, "i don't remember what happened next. "i don't remember what she said, i wish i did." [smith] but the conversations recounted, at least reflect what happened. es] they reflect what happened. [smith] there are no composite characters, right? [jones] right. [smith] it's a true story. [jones] yeah,and yo. and that's why i try to be candid about what i don't remember, as because i'm alreadngy i a lot of you as a reader in that i'm using fictive techques. i'm creating dialogue, right? and so i'm trying to do my best. but you try to rein it in. that's why i try to be very intentional anausparing with dialogue b listen, most of us, we're lucky if we can remember a few words from a specific conversation-- [smith] that happened today! [jones] today, this morning. [smith] today, right. as opposed to going back many years. about writing a memoir, that, i've not written a memoir, and would imagine

it would bicult for a lot of reasons. but at least because you're forced to access things that you'd just as soon not remember, or access. so how much self-editing did you do of tr difficult parts of yory? having read this book a couple of times, it doesn't seem like you left very much out. (laugh or anything that was difficult, let me say it this way, that you didn't shy away from recounting things that were difficult, in fact, that almost inems to have been the [jones] it was the point. [smith] right. [jones] the idea of difficult subject matter, i understand it as a reader, i do. and i recorded the audiobook earlier this summer. and i've gotta tell you, reading the audiook was a totally different experience. [smith] harder or easier? [jones] harder. readg the audiobook was therst. [smith] saying the words out loud. [jones] mm hmm, oh my gosh, saying what that pastor says. [smith] yeah. [jones] saying things my grandmother and i, we said to each other. that was difficult. and the last chapter but as a writer, i don't feel that way. what was difficult was writing about my mother,

she's not alive anymore. [smith] right. [jones] so i felt, you know, i love her. and i want to honor that love, and being respectful. [smith] she passed a while ago. [jones] she passedway in 2011. [smith] right, so she's of course, not seen the book. [jones] yeah, yeah, so i feel respectful to her. [smith] that would she say abou book? how would she feel about it? [jones] hmm! interesting. [smito] before we came ouy, we talked about the fact that your grandmother who's a significant character in this book, but is important. [jones] he's there. [smith] they're both still wh us. [jones] they're still with us. they read the book. [smith] they've read the book. your mother never got the opportunity to read it. ould she say about it? [jones] well she knew that i was going to write a book one day. when i was in graduate school, she called me, as"and i explained what it and i was like, "uh," and i froze in my tracks on college campus, where i was in graduate school at rutgers, and i said "what did she say?" and she said "uh oh!" (laughing) [smith] she sa [jones] that's what mildred said! uh oh, that was it. so i think my mom was aware of my intentions, that it was a goal down the line. you know, it's hard.

i hope i made her proud. one of my r als was to make it cl the reader that my mother, my grandmother, they are not literary devices, they are people. [smith] right. [jones] they are women. black women in america fighting for their own lives. and i wanted to tell the story, and of course, they're a part of what goes on but i wanted the reader to understand that they have their own stories. "oh maybe i'll write my own book now." [smith] maybe she'll tell her own story. [jones] yeah. mith] well, i think you're unsparing in your portrayal of your mother and grandmother, just to stay on this point for a second. and i don't mean in a negative sense. i think that you're honest about it. you're not cruel to them. you're not presenting them in a negative light. [jones] thank ntu. [smith] you're preg them as who they are. we're all flawed. we all have challenges,we am the best we can. [jones] yeah. (laughing) [smith] your mother's life was extraordinary 'cause for one thing, it gave you, as you very clearly say in the book, [jones] yes. [smith] late in the book there's a line that says something to the effect of "our mothers are who we all are." right? [jones] our mothers are why we are here. [smith] oh why we're here. [jones] yeah, yeah.

we're all somebody's kid. [jones] yeah.of that. there's a lot of admiration for how she raised you and who she allowed you to become, and how you became who you were because of her. but at the same time, it's an nest portrayal of the struggles that your mother had and the differences that you have with your gramother which are material in this book, as well. i think you gotta respect it. [jon] yeah. [smith] they may be made a little uncomfortable by seeing it on the page, but you know. [jones] yeahngi mean, it's interes i talked to my grandmother a few times about the book while i was writing it. [smith] while you were writing it. [jones] mm hmm. and she's very interesting. she has never attempted to reframe, make excuses, control the story. [smith] she is who she is. [jones] she's who she is. and when she read it bthe first third of tk where, for my grandmother and i in particular, it's really fraut. i never told my mom about what happened that summer with my grandmother and i, and it's intense. [smith] say in short, for the benefit of people who have not yet read the book, explain what we're talking about. [jones] re, sure. so my mom practiced nichiren buddhism, she chanted (speaking foreign language)

na turner, you might know that, if you know about tina turner's life. and the rest of our familyuper do not practice nichiren buddhism. [smith] right. about the opposite end of the spectrum. ones] yeah, about as far away, devoutly christiandifferent. some of my marliest memories are family arguing. liketoe being short enough it under the table and i just remember seeing everyone yelling and shouting about god and hell. and time i'm a teenager in the book, you see me go to memphis foe summer, as my mom, as single parent often sent me home. [smith] where your grandmother lives. ] where my grandmother lived, in memphis. we were used to going to church every sunday and i didn't mind it. but that summer she started going to ta evangelical pentecchurch as opposed to the black baptist church i was used to. that was a change. and i'm a teenager there. listen, any caregiver,isny teacher, mentor,n,

it is scary, (ng) realizing your kid is now becoming this other entity. they're getting bold, they're talkinback, they're making choices. it's a lot, in america it's a lot. so i underher anxiety. and i think she responded to it by saying "we're gonna get yousso church as much as le." [smith] more church is the answer. [jones] more church is the answer. yeah and so we wgoing to churc, three or four nights a week not including sunday mornings. it was just a lot, i felt like it was all we did. [smith] and looking back now you don't begrudge her. [jones] i don't begrudge her, it was a mistake. it culminates in a terrible mistake. because at the end of the summer, she takes me to the front of the chuh, takes me up to this man that i did not know. and i remembering about that, we've never even spoken. and she says "th my grandson, saeed. "his mother is buddhist." and he just hedded like that was allhings he would ever need to know about me, and my mother, who he also absolutely had not met, right? and he just starteto pray. and then he said "god, this boy's mother

"has gone down the path of satan "and decided to drag him down too." [smith] right. [jones] and speaking of dialogue, i do remember everything he said. [smith] that he said. [jones] i will remember it for the rest of my life. i'll be dead a e i'll still remember in. he said "make her suffer." [smith] yeah. [jones] and he just goes on in is elaborate curse "rain your plagues, make her sick "so that she will suffer and realize "she's down the wrong path, and come bacto the church "and bring her son with her, amen, amen." that was the prayer, which was a curse. and so i drae,that distinction becah my god, what cruelty. [smith] right. [jones] eld i don't care what youve in, but if you're trying to persuade someone that's not the way to do it. [smith] my point was simply to say that your grandmother didn't wish this on you, herself. ones] she didn't. i think, and i talk about this in the book. if you had ask put your hand on the bible and testify, why did u just do that? i think she would've said because i love my grandson. to because i'm trying ave his soul. that's why that part of the book,

therngare harrowing, terriflaughi) sections in the book, but for me, thmo's the section that i painful. because it's an act of love. and i think often, and we need to talk about this more, often we hurt, scare, or haranother out of love! [smith] in the name of love, right. [jones] out of concern. america is scary. certainly if you're raising a gakid. since i'n doing this book tour for the last few weeks, moms have come up to me and they talk about matthew shepard or they talk about atatiana jefferson, young 28 woman-- [smith] in forth worth. [jones] in fort worth who was just shot and killed, and they're like "i am scared." and sometimes when we're scared, like my mother, get silt. my mother and i had a vibrant relationship. but her response, i think to fear about haviay black son was that she just couldn't talk about sexuality. for my grandmother, her response was proactive. she was oh, ok, i will save his soul."

[smith] let's just take him to church. more church is the answer. [jones] more church. [smith] so this book is, in essence, a book about you coming to terms with and better understanding who you are. ones] yes. [smith] right. [jones] when i said earlier that there was something universal about it, i sit tere as a straight wan who grew up in the northeast. you're a gay black man who grew up in texas. but there is a connection between us. and i connected with this book in part because we've all been through the process of discovering who we are. and so whether the narrative through line in your story is about sexual orientation, or it's about race, or it's abouraphy. [smith] because i think geography-- [jones] place is important. is really important in this book. netheless, what it's fundamentally about is understanding better who you are, discovering who you are. [jones] true, yeah. ] and that really is the point of this book. [jones] that's why it's "how we fight for our lives" not how i foor my life. [smith] how you fought for your life, right. [jones] because, and i'm so glad you draw attention tthe, also you're the first straight white man who's gotten to interview me for the book. [smith] isright? [jones] how's it feel? is it good for you? (laughing)

good for you! (laughing) ] i'm happy to have that superlative. [jones] you're welcome, you're welcome! [smith] thank you very much, great, yeah. [jones] wear it well! but that's the thing because we a have gone through this process, and are still going through it, it nevernds, this work of understanding who we are and what we care. and so whether you know it or not, and i would argue that if you think you aren't, you've got a hell of a fight yet to come. [smith] and also if you thk you're ever done-- [jones] yeah! [smith] --with that process of understanding who you are, you're wron because the fact is, the end of this book, it's not like ok, i'm done. [jones] work's in prress. [smith] figured it out, it's a work in progress. so you mentioned matthew shepard. you called outana jefferson, but in the book you actually talk about also james byrd. [jones] yes. [smith] two things that were, i think, significant, they're mentioned in passing, -ish, but they seem significant to me at least in terms of understanding how you are understanding your environment-- [jones] absolutely. [smith] --were the dragging death of james byrd

e murder of matthew shepard. [jones] yes. [smith] and understanding how because you're gay you can be killed. because you're black you can be killed. that's just enough. [jones] uh huh, that's enough. [smith] talk a little bit about those two as backdrops. [jbees] it's interesting use i knew the climax in phoenix, arizona which we can talk about, i knew that's where we were going to go as a writer and reader together. and just organically, truly, i was like okay, so what are the earliest iteration of some of these themes and just organically, truly, i was like okay, when i started being aware? and i just started writing about the summer. these specemories, and i looked it up. and i was like "oh, ok, may 1998. "ok, huh, what was, oh my gosh!" james byrd, jr., that is june of 1998, that's jasper, texas, that is four hours from lewisville-- [smith] lewisville which-- [jones] --texas, is where i grew up. [smith] where you grew up, which is just north of dallas. [jones] yep, yep, just up i-35, so that's where we're living when, i write about us watching it on the ening news, hearing that he was beaten up and chained to the back of truck

by hree white men who offerhim a r. and they dragged him until his body was dismembered. [smith] for the sin of being black. [jones] fosin of being black, as they perceived it. his body actually desegregated that cemetery in jasper. an mmuch like emmett tillorial, which was just recently replaced, it's been graffitied and covered in racialett slurs over and over again. so that's june, and i'm watchi that. i'm like "ok, well that's one bit of information." that octobd, is when matthew shep1 years ago and they're like "hey, you wa to go drinking "and go hang out?" and they beat him and leave him for dead in a field. and of course, that became a national story. so it was like, i'm 12 yrs old, james byrd, jr. i'm 12 years old-- [jones] matthew shepard-- [smith] mahew shepard. [jones] i'm 12 years old, all of that is happening. [smith] it can't help but be context. and we have to understand this about young people. well before the age of 12,y the way, young people are always reading the american room.

they are always watching us. and certainly they have more media now than i did as a kid. sohere's a whole 'nother vel of social media. but they see what's the news. they hear what's coming on the radio. and i remember being in the car and hearing shock jocks say homophobic or racist things and people are laughing. and you turnround and you look, are other people laughing? is my mom laughing? no, ok, thank goodness. [smith] but remember-- [jones] you're paying attention to that. [smith] you're tal [jones] yeah. [smith] when byrd and shepard were both killed, so 21 years later, the next generation of kids is even more aware. [jones] yes. [smith] is even more plugged in, [jones] i think so. [smith] connected. [jones] i think so, some things have changed. when i was 12, tri idea of getting m one day to a man that i love w a fantasy. [smith] how 'bout a gay presidential candidate who i might not even like! isn't that great? (laughing) i'm not required to agree with him

because of our sexual identy, or to agree with some of the other candidates because of our racial, we have options! so things havechanged, you. marriage equality is a part of our life. there is more representation. [smith] inact, you talk in the book about obama being elected. it's not a political book as r as it goes, although it's obviously a political book. one of the moments that is more conventnally political is oh, african american president. [jones] right, yeah. [smith] but again-- [jones] deep anxiety. [smith] vastly different. and yet also-- [jones] yeah, yeah. because, by the time i'm a senior in colle in kentucky, i went to western kentucky university, in a seminal moment in the book that collides with his history, it's right bhe gets the nomination, right before iowa, actually. [smith] iowa, yeah. it's right bhe [jones] iowa caucus., and every morning i woke up terrified-- [smith] he would be assassinated. [jones] that he was gonna be assassinated, and ine act honestly, whenn, i remember the inauguration and they announced that michelle obama and barack obama and i remember thinking, please don't do that. [smith] please don't do it. [jones] oh my gosh.

because again, i aa texas kid. and every texas kid has been to the grassy kno. (laughing) we have those images, and so i remember. [smith] you remember. [jones] yeah! so the joy of the breakthrough was tempered, and look at us now! the years after rms of a black president. look at how americthresponds to these breughs, it's complicated. [smith] we seem to be worse than we were before, or at least we're saying the quiet part out loud. [jones] it's almost like we're being punished for the breakthrough. i think that's how some people feel. [smith] can you talk about the south again? [jones] (laughing) [smith] sense of place in this book is so important. if you had grown up in lewisville, maine, or lewisville, washington state, would the story be the same story, necessarily? [jones] no, it couldn't, it couldn't. sothing i'm struck by, andwas s here last night that the thing about texas, of course, is that it was once a country. [smith] right. [jones] and so it rightfully has this outsized relationship to history that most states don't have, right?

it has a very different identity and a sense of importance. (laughing) [smith] importance or self-importance? [jones] self-importance, and honestly you know 'cause there are a lot of wonderful books right nowy about history, and the history of texas. learned recently annette gordon-reed, wonderful historian. [smith] yeah, great historian. [jones] she wroteabout thie new york review of books. and she noted that an outsized proportion of hugely important supreme court decisions me from texas. [smith] come from texas. [jones] and she explains that la v. texas which i mention at some point in the book, that was the law, my junior year of high school, until my junior year of high school it was still technically legal for police officers to arrest men for having sex with men, my junior year! so i say all of that to say i think texas's identity in relationship to the rest of the country and my desire to write a book that was not just about my story, but that was very self-aware and understanding that my stor vital element of the american story, s texas is a vital element

of america's identity, right? and that's complicated. i think that's where i got that from. when you're growing up in texas, and you're just living, you're always being reminded of e identity. [smith] but don't you think though, that your story is part of the american story but the reason that it hasn't been told is because people haven't told it. you've stepped up to tell it. there are saeed jonses otherlaces. [jones] true. [smith] who had similar stories and who have not had the platform or the gumption. [jones] yeah. and that's an important distinction. people have been telling this story. people are doing trus work. i don't believe that people are voiceless. i think people in positions of power don't wanna lisn. or they're willfully-- [smith] it's abo platforming. [joneslencing. [smith] of course. i think i'm very fortunate that for a book to resonate and reach an audience, it's not just about the book, it's about the time, it's about the place, it's about the culture. e stars do kinda have to align.

in the book, i'm often struck by how many black gay artists and poets, in particular, who i think of as teachers on the page, died of hiv, aids, or poverty, or violence in their 20s, who didn't make it to their early 30s. m 33 years old. they were doing the work. and i trust that they would still be writing and contributing to our culture now. and certainly, i am a gay man. i have a cousin who came out as trans. and she has happily and fiercely lived her life inarallas, texas in the dfw, as, since we was babysitting n i was a kid. and so i think it is important for me, and readers to understand my story and appreciate it. but understandjust a part of a bigger story. [smith] and the fact is, because you told your story and have told it in a way that has been so celebrated

and so visible, there are probably people in the generation behind you who are gonna feel empowered-- [jones] yeah, i hope so. [smith] --now to tell their story. in that way, you're paying it forward. [jones] absolutely, absolutely. [smith] aren't you? so you self-identify as a poet. [jones] yeah! [smith] right. [jones] it's a worldview. [smithare you still a poet? [jones] yeah, i have to admit-- [smithrmbecause this is long riting. [jones] it sure is, for me. [smith] it is very different. as successful as you were before, two previously published books of poetry,ward-winning. you do this, s a little bit of a dog leg, right? you simply go back to that? how do you view your writing life and your cre output now, after this? [jones] i think of poet as a worldview. image, and language are my two main lenses to the world. everything else goes through that. and that comes fm poetry. i will take poetry to whatever i do. i think it informs e way i play

and think on twitter, in my essays. in the book there is lyricism. there is a poem that opens the book. and i wantom to use what i learned oetry to color the emotional nuances of what's going on. because my prose is actually pretty matter-of-fact, right? the lyricism allows me to, i think, becgive you some is actually pre emotional information.ht? and thend that, i think-- [smith] you didn't write your memoir as a long poem. there's a reason--y jones] i sure didn't,odness. [smith] well, the point i make is that sometimes form follows function. [jones] form follo function. i mean that's it. [jones] yes, yes. [smith] in this case, the long form saeed has a bigger impact, right-- [jones] thank you.th] --than sh. [jones] yeah, and i think, the weird thing about universality is that i think it's direcnnected to specificity. and i think with poetry because you're emphasizingound and image, you can't just be like, oh, and let me explain theause pragmatic, the details. you begin to have to kind of tighten the lens. and so i wanted to open up. i wanted to be able to kinda flesh out this world

in a way that prose allows me. [smith] so what do you do next? [jones] i don't know! one, i think attention is wonderful. i' and it's bright, anso honored. [smith] also, as you know, it's fleeting. [jones] it's fleeting,rand it's loud! it's diing! [smith] yeah. [jones] yoour best work when people aren't paying attention. and when what you are writ tg just matters so muyou that you'd be writing it anyway. no one is evhope, gonna hold a gun to my head and say we need another poem! the poems come because i need them here. [smith] got it. [jones] so whatever comes next, things are gonna have to quiet down. and i'll write again, in whatever privacy i'm able to construct. [smith] i thinks someone should make a movie of this book. [jones] well-- [smith] so let's end with a cliffhanger. [jones] ok! (laughing) [smith] let's see if that jams. (laughing)h] so let's end congratulations saeed,than. [jones] thank you so much. e [smith] saeed jones, gm a big hand. good, thank you. (applauding) [smith] we'd le to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard

to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [jones] so for six years, i worked at buzzfeed news in new york city where i lived until rently. i edited, i ran a fellowship program. i was the first lgbt editor there. i started in january 2013 sot was right before those crucial supreme court decisions, so i did all of thng, i was editing, assig reporting, writing. [smith] yeah. is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by laura and john beckiorth, hobby family found (bright music)

robert: president trump purges his ranks and exerts his power. president trump: we're draining the swamp. i just never knew how deep the swamp was. robert: the intelligence community is rocked ashe president installs lalists. andti the jusce department faces newressure as pardons are issued. president trump: i'm actually the chief law enforcement officer of the country. robert: and looms -- president trump: roger has a very goo chance of exoneration. obe: and in las vegas, the gloves comes as mayor bloomberg tes the sta and senator sanders rises. >> the b known socialist in the country happens to be a