[female announcer] funding for "overheard with evan smith" is provided in part by hillco partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by laura and john beckworth, hobby familyoundation. [evan smith] i'm evan smith, he's an award winning poet whose memoir, "how we fight for our lives" has just been published. he's saeed jones, this is "overheard." (upbeat music) [smith] let's be honest, is this about the ability to learn or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly? how have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa? you could say that he made his n bed, but you caused him to sleep in it. yoow, you saw a problem and ov time, took it on.

let's start with tt sizzle before we geto the steak. are you gonna run for president? n let i think i just g sizzle bef f from you, actually. (laughing) this is "overheard." (audience applauding) [smith] saeed jones, welcome. [saeed jones] thank you, hey! on [smith] and congratula- [jones] thank you so much. [smith] --on this. i think it's an enormous accomplishment. [jones] thank you. [smith] of this book. as i shared with you before we came out, i don't like anything. (laughing) i'm not moved by anything. [jones] ok. [smith] i'm totally closedsaff. [jones] oh you're [smith] well, sure ok. [jones] cold. [smith] the second time te read this book, i goy. because i really think that it is as moving a story, even though your story is not everybody's story, everybody's story is not your story. i'll come back to this in a second, the univerlity of it, the fact that we all see in ourselves, a time in our lives when we were trying to figure out who we were. because really at's what this-- [jones] yes, that is it, that's the work. [smith] that's what the book is about. why did you deo write it? basic question. [jones] i thlike many writ,

we write tunderstand. we write because we're curious and interested in something that happened. something that i struggled with though, as i was growing up, and you see this a bit in the bk, was that i knewanted to be. i knew. but as i was struggling to come into an understanding of my identity, my race, sexuality, gender, th and really struggling depres, to be honest, the impulses collided. and so often when i was younger, i would stay in dangerous rooms, figurative and literal, becai e i was like "well, n write about this. "and doesn't that mean i'm in control of what's going on?" and so i struggle with that. but that's a problem that's a problem. and so i realized i wanted to write the book when i felnti had a different inn. [smith] so are you writing yourself out of the room essentially? [jones] writing myout of t, and explaining why for other people. [smith] so it isfor other .

and again, i think there's something that all of us can take from this book. but it sounds to me like, what i suspected, you also wrote this reorly for you as much ass, right? [jones] sure, i think certainly a memoir, right, yooing into your own personal history and making sense of it. and the challenges of writing a memoir, it's just instructive. because yo to fully flesh yourself out and other characters, and the landscape. i can't just say "yeah i grew up in lewisville" and you've got it, most people will never be in lewisville, necessarily. i have to brino life, and that creative act, you learn from it. and then more memories start to come. memory is an unreliable nartor. i think of it as a kind of trickster figure. you're grappling with your memories. we incorrectly remember things, intentionally and unintentionally, all the time. and so in the five years in earnest that i was writing the book, from the time i sold it and then publishing it, i'm glad i'm a slow writer. because it allowed memories to come up

and have time to really separate-- [smith] you had to work through that. [jones] i did. [smith] you bring up a couple of good points about writing memoirs. first thing is that sometimes your own memory is unreliable, you're an unreliae narrator. [jones] yes! [smith] of your own story. [jones] we are all the unreliable narrators. [smith] how certe you, since this is presented to us as your story, how certain are you that your memories are, by the time we read it, reliable? [jones] i think they're reliable in the sense 'm pretty straightforward in terms of my own reliability. rand i say there's solly important, high intensity moments in the book and i go, "i don't remember what happened next. "i don't remember what she said, i wish i did." [smith] but the conversations recounted, at least reflect what happened. [jones] they reflet happened. [smith] there are no composite characters, right? [jones] right. [smith] it's a true story. [jones] yeah, and you know, sure. and that's why i try to be candid about what i don't remember, because i'm already asking a lot of you as a reader intehat i'm using fictivniques. i'm creating dialogue, right? and so i'm trying to do my best. but you try to rein it in. that's why i try to be very intentional

and sparing with dialogue because listen, most of an, we're lucky if we c rember a few words from a specific conversation-- [smith] that happened today! [jones] today, this morning. [smith] today, right. as opposed to going back many years. [jones] years later, totally. [smith] thother part about writing a memoir, that, i've not written a memoir, and would imagine ita ould be difficult fot of reasons. but at least because you're forced to access things that you'd just as soon not remember, or access. so how much self-editing did you do of the difficult parts of your story? having oead this book a couptimes, it doesn't seem like you left very much out. (laughing) or anything that was difficult, let me say it this way, that you didn't shy away from recounting things at were difficult, in fact, that almost seems have been the point. [jones] it was the point. [smith] right. [jones] the idea of fficult subject matter, i understand itas a reader. and i recorded the audiobook earlier this summer. and i've gotta tell you, reading the audiobook was a totally different experience. [smith] harder or easier? [jones] harder. reading the audioboootwas the first time ihoked up. [smith] saying the words out loud. [jones] mm hmm, oh my gosh,

sahat that pastor says. [smith] yeah. [jones] saying things my grandmother and i, we said to each other. thatas difficult. and the last chapter, that was the only time. t but as a writer, i doel that way. what was difficult was writing about my mother, she's not alive anymore. [smith] right. [jones] so i felt,you know. [smith] she passed a while ago. [jones] she passed away in 2011. mith] right, so she's of course, not seen the book. [jones] yeah, yeah, so i feel respectful to her. [smith] what would she y about this book? how would she feel about it? [jones] hmm! interesting. [smith] before we came out today, we talked about the fact that your grandmother who's a significantacter in, your uncle who is a less significant character, but is important. [jones] he's there. [smith] they're both still with us. [jones] they're still with us. they read the book. [smith] they've ad the book. your mother never got the opportunity to read it. what would she say about it? going to write a book one day.s when i was in graduate school, she called me, and she said "i told grandma you're writing a memoir one day "and i explained what it was." and i was like, "uh," and i froze in my tracks on college campus, where i was in graduate school at rutgers, and i said "what dishe say?"

and she said "uh oh!" (laughing) [smith] she said "uh oh." aughing) [jones] that's what mildred said! uh oh, that was it. so i think my mom was aware of my intentions, that it was a goal down the line. you know, it's hard. i hope i made her proud. one of my goals was to make it clear to the reader that my mother, my grandmother, they are not literary devices, they are people. [smith] right. [jones] they are women. black women in america fighting for their own lives. and i wanted to tell the story, and of course, they're a part of what goes on. i wanted the reader to understand that they have their own stories. and if my mom was alive, may she'd go "oh maybe i'll write my own book now." [smith] maybe she'll tell her own story. [jones] yeah. [smith] well, i think you're unsparing in your portrayal of your mother andrandmother, just to stay on this point for a second. and i don't mean that in a negative sense. i think that you're honest about it. you're not cruel to them. you're not presenting them in a negative light. [jones] thank you. [smith] yore presenting them as who they are. we're all flawed. we all have challenges, we all deal withhem the best we can. [jones] yeah. (laughing) [smith] your mother's life was extraordinary se for one thing, it gave you, as you very clearly say in the book,

you are who you are because of who s was. [jones] yes. [smith] late in the book there's a line that says something to the effect of "our mothers are who we all are." right? [jones] our mothers are why we are here. [smith] we're all products of that. we're all somebody's kid. [jones] yeah. [smith] and i think that in at respect, there's a lot of admiration for how she raised you and who she allowed you to become, and how you became who you were because of her. but at the same time, it's an honest portrayal of the struggles that your mother had and the differences that you have with your grandmother which are material in this book, as well. i think you gotta respect it. [jones] yeah. [smith] they mrt be made a little uncomle by seeing it on the page, but you know. [jones] yeah, i mean, it'snteresting. i talked to my grandmother a few times about the book whils writing it. [smith] while you were writing it. [jones] mm hmm. and she's very interesting. she has never attempd to reframe, make excuses, controstory. [smith] she is who she is. [jones] she's who she is. and when she read it, the first third of the book where, for my grandmother and i in particular, it's really fraught.

i never told my mom about whatappened that summer with my grandmother and i, and it's intense. [smith] say in short, for the benefit of people who have not yet read the book, explain what we're talking about. [jones] sure, sure. so my mom practiced nichiren buddhism, she chanteaking foreign language) tina turner, you might know that, if you know about tina turner's life. and the rest of our family super do not pr nichiren buddhism. [smith] right. about the opposite end of the spectrum. [jones] yeah, about as far away, devoutly christian in different denominations. some of my earliest memories are of my family arguing. like me being short enough to s under the table and i just rememr seeing everyone yelling and shouting about god and hell. and by the time i'm aenager in, you see me go to memphis for the summer, as my mom, as single parent often sent me home. [smith] where your grandmother lives. [jones] where my gther lived, in memphis. we were used to going to church ery sunday and i mind it. but that summer she started going to

an evangelical pentecostal church as opposed to the black baptist church i was used to. that was a change. and i'm a teenager there. listen, any caregiver, any teacher, mentor, listen, it is scary, (laughing) realizing your kid is now becoming this other entity. they're getting bold, they're talking back, they're making choices. it's a lot, in america it's a lot. and i think she responded to it by saying "we're gonna get you to church as ch as possible." [smith] more church is the answer. [jones] more church is the answer. yeah andhuo we were going toh suddenly, three or four nights a week not including sunday morngs. it was just a lot, i felt like it was all we did. [smith] and looking back now you don't begrudge her. [ji don't begrudge her, it was a mistake. it culminates in a terrible mistake. because at the end of the summer, she takes me to the front of the church, takes me up to this man that i did not know. and i thmember thinking about , we've never even spoken. and she n,ys "this is my grandaeed.

"his mother is buddhist." and he just nodded like that was all the things ow he would ever need to about , who he also absolutely had not met, right? and he just started to pray. and then he said "god, this boy's mother "has gone down the path of satan "and decided to drag him down to" [smith] right. [jones] and speaking of dialogue, i do remember everything he sa. [smith] that he said. [jones] i will remember it for the rest of my life. i'll be dead and i'll still remember it, evan. he said "make her suffer." [smith] yeah. [jones] and he just goes on in this elaborate curse "so that she will suffer and realize "she's down the wrong path, and come back to the church "and bring her son with her, amen, amen." that was the prayer, which was a curse. and so i draw that distinction cause, oh my god, what cruelty. [smith] right. [jones] and i don't care at you believe in, but if you're trying to persuade someone about your religion or life philosophy, that's not the way to dot. [smith] my point was simply to say that your grandmother didn't wish this on you, herself. [jones] she didn't think, and i talk that your grandmother didn't wisabout this in the book.

if youhaad asked her put your on the bible and testify, i think she would've said because i love my grandson. because i'm tr that's why that part of the book, there are harrowing, terrifying (laughing) sections in the book, but for me, that's the section that is most painful. because it's an t of love. and i think ofte and we need to talk about this more, often we hurt, scare, lor harm one another out e! [smith] in the name of love, right. [jones] out of concern. america is scary. certainly if you are raising black kid. certainly if you're raising a gay kid. since i've been doing this book tour for the last few weeks, moms have come up to me and they talk about matthew shepard or they talk about atatiana jefferson, young 28 woman-- [smith] in forth worth. [jones] in fort worth who was just shot and killed, and they're like "i am scared." and sometimes when we're scared, like my mother,

my mother and i had a vibrant relationship. but her response, i think to fear was that she just couldn't talk about sexuality. that was the one silence. for my grandmother, her response was proactive. she was like "oh, ok, i will save his soul." [smith] let's just her take him to church.ve. more church is the answer. [jones] more church. [smith] so this book is, in essence, a booabout you coming to terms with and better understanding who you are. [jones] yes. [smith] right. [jones] when i said earlier unthat there was somethingersal, i sit here as a straight white man who grew up in the northeast. you're a gay black mwho gr. straight white man but there is a connection between us. and i connected with this book in part because we've al through the process of discovering who we are. and so whether the narrative through line in your story is about sexual orientation, or it's about race, or is about geography. [smith] because i think geography-- [jones] place is important. is really important in this book. nonetheless, what it's fundamentally about is underng better who you are, discovering who you are. [jones] true, yeah. ll [smith] and that r is the point of this book.

[jones] that's why it's "how we fight for our lives" not w i fought for my life.mitt for your life, right. [jones] because, and i'm so glad you draw attention to the, also you're the first straight white man o's gotten to interview me for the book. [smith] is that right? [jones] how's it feel? is it good for you? (laughg) good for you! (laughing) [smith] i'm happy to have that superlative. [jones] you're welcome,you'! [smith] thank you very much, great, yeah. [jones] wear it well! but that's the thing because we all and are still going through it, it never ends, this work of understanding who we are and what we care about. and so whether you know it or not, you are fighting for your life. and i would argue that if you think you aren't, you've got a hell of a fight yeto come. [smith] and also if you think you're ever do-- [jones] yeah! [smith] --with that process of understanding who you are, you're wrong. because the fact is, the end of this book, it's not like ok, i'm done. [jones] work's in progress. [smi w] figured it out, it'sk in progress. so you mentioned matthew shepard. you fflled out atatiana son, but in the book you actually talk about also james byrd.

[jones] yes. [smith] two things that were, i think, significant, thmentioned in passing, -ish, but they seem significant to me at least in terms of tanding how you are understanding your environment-- [jones] absolutely. g[smith] --were the dragg deathd and the murder of matthew shepard. [jones] yes. [smith] and understanding how because you're gay you can be killed. because you're black you can be killed. that's just enough.gay [jones] uh huh, that's enough. [smith] talk a little bit about those two as backdrops. [jones] it's interesting because i knew the climax in phoenix, arizona which we can talk about, i knew that's where we were going to go aster and reader together. and just organicly, truly, i was like okay, so what are the earliest iteration of somef these themes when i started being aware? and i just started writinabout the summer. these specific memories, and i looked it up. and i was li"oh, ok, may 1. "ok, huh, what was, oh my gosh!" james byrd, jr., that is june of 1998, that's jasper, texas, that is four hours frolewisville--

[smith] lewisville which-- [jones] --texas, ishere i grew up. [smith] where you grew up, which is just north of dallas. [jones] yep, yep, just up i-35, right between denton and dallas. so that's where we're living when, i write about us watching it on the evening news, hearing that he was beaten up d chained to the back of a truck by three white men who offered him a ride home from work. they turned out to be white supremacists. and they d him until his body was dismembered. [smith] for the sin of being black. [jones] for the sin of being black, as they perceived it. his body actually y segregated that cemet jasper. and much like emmetttill's, which was just recently replaced, it's been graffitied and coin racial slurs over and over again. so that's june, and i'm watching that. i'm like "ok, well that's one bit of information." in laramie, wyoming meets two young men a bar and they're like "hey, you want to go drinking "and go hang out?" and eat him and leave him for dead in a field. and of course, that became a national story. so it was like, i'm 12 years old, james byrd, jr.

[jones] matthew shepard-- [smith] matthew shepard. [jones] i'm 12 years old, all of that is happening. [se th] it can't help butntext. [jones] yeah! and we have to understand this about young people. well before the age of 12, by the way, young people are always reading the american roo they are always watching us. and certainly theyve more w than i did as a kid. so there's a whole 'nother level of social media. but they see what's the news. they hear what's coming on the radio. and i remember being in the car and hearing shock jocks say homophobic or racist things g. and people are laugh d you turn around and you and hearing shock jocks say look, are other people laughing? ng? no, ok, thank goodness.ou and hearing shock jocks say look[smith] but remember--ghing? [jones] you're paying attention to that. [smith] you're talking about 21 yea ago. [jones] yeah. [smith] when byrd and shepard were both killed, so 21 years later, the next generation of kids is even more aware. [jones] yes. [smith] is even more plugged in, [jones] i so. [smith] connected. [jones] i think so, some things have changed. when i was 12, the idea of gting married one day

to a man that i love was a fantasy. [smith] how 'bout a gay presidential candidate campaigning with his husband? [jones] whknew? who i might not even like! isn't that great? (laughing) i'm not required to agree with him with some of the other candidates because of our racial, we have options! so thinos have changed, you marriage equality is a part of our life. there is more representation. [smith] in fact, you talk in the book about obama being elected. it's not a political book as far as it goes, although it's obviously a political book. is oh, african american president. [jones] right, yeah. [smith] but again-- [jones] deep anxietyre [smith] vastly dif. and yet also-- [jones] yeah, yeah. because, by the time i'm a senior in college in kentucky, i went to western kentucky university, in a seminal moment in the book that collides with his history, it's night before he gets tination, right before iowa, actually. [smith] iowa, yeah. [jones] iowas. and every morning i woke up terrified--

[smith] he would be assassinated. [jones] that he was gonna be assassinated, and in fact honestly, when he won, i remember the inauguration and they announced that michelle obama and barack obama were going to walk through the parade. and i remember thinking, please don't do that. [smith] please don't do it. [jones] oh my gosh. because again, i am a texas kid. and every texas kid has been to the grassy knoll. (laughin, we have those imagd so i remember. [smith] you remember. [jones] yeah! so the joy of the breakthrough was tempered, and look at us now! the years after two terms of a black president. look at how america responds to these breakthroughs, itplicated. [smith] we seem to be worse than we were before, or at least we're saying the quiet part out loud. [jones] it's almost like we'rg punished for the breakthrough. i think that's how some people feel. [smith] can you talk about the south again? sm[jones] sure! (laughing)h] sense of place in this book is so important. if you had grown up in lewisville, maine, or lewisville, washington state, would the story be the same story, necessarily? [jones] no, it couldn't, it couldn't.

something i'm struckthy, and i was talking riends here last night that the thing about texas, of course, is that it was once a country. [smith] right. here last night that the [jones] and so it rightfullye, has this outsized relationship to history that most states don't have, right? it has a very different identity and a sense of importance. (laughing) [smith] ance or self-importance? [jones] self-importance, and honestly you know i was reading recently 'cause the a lot of wonderful books right now about history, and the history of texas. and i learned receannette , wonderful historian. [smithyeah, great historian. [jones] she wrote about this f the new york review of books. and she noted that an outsized proportion of hugely important supreme court decisions come from texas. [smith] come from texas. [jones] and she explains that lawrence v. texas which i mention at some point in the book, that was the law, my junior year of high school, until my junior year of high school was still technically legal for police officers to arrest men for having sex with men, my junior year! so i say all of that to say i think texas's identity

in relationship to the rest of the country and my desire to write a book that was not just about my ory, but that was very self-aware and understanding that my story is a vital element of the american story, just as texas is a vital element of america's identity, right? and that's complicated. i think that when you're growing up in texas, and you're just living, you're always being reminded of the identity. [smith] but you think though, that your story is part of the american story but the reason you've stepped up to tell it. there are saeed jonses other places. [jones] true. [smith] who had similar stories d who have not had the platform or the gumption. and that's an important distinction. people have been telling this story. people are dng tremendous work. i don't believe that people are voiceless. i think people in positions of power don't wanna listen. or they're willfully-- [smith] it's about platforming. [jones] --silencing. [sth] of course.

i think i'm very fortunate that for a bk to resonate and reach an audience, it's not just about the book, it's about the time, it's about the place, it's about the culture. and the stars do a have to align. but yeah, i think, and i mention this at one point in the book, i'm often struck by how many black gay artists and poets, in particular, who i thins teachers on the page, died of hiv, aids, or verty, or violence in their 20s, who didn't make it to their early 30s. they were doing the work. and i trust that they would still be writing and contributing to our culture now. i want to honor them. and certainly, i am a gay man. but i have family members that identify as lgbt. i have a cousin who came out as trans. and she has happily and fiercely lived her life in dallas, texas in 've dfw area, as long asknown her,

since she was babysittin and so i think it is important for me, and readers to understand my story and appreciate it. but understand it's just a part of a bigger story. [smith] and thldfact is, because you our story and have told it in a way that has been so celebrated and so visible, there are probably people in the generation behind you who are gonna feel empowered-- [jones] yeah, i hope so. [smith] --now to tell their story. in that way, you're paying it forwar [jones] absolutely, absolutely. [smith] aren't you? we have just a couple mutes left. so you self-identify as a poet. [jones] yeah! [smith] right. [jones] it's a worldview. [smith] are you still a et? [jones] yeah, i have to admit-- [smith] because this is long form writing. [jones] it sure is, for me. [smith] it is very different. as successful as you were before, two previously published books of poetry, award-winning. you dobihis, sort of a little of a dog leg, right? do you simply k to that? how do you view your writing life and afur creative output nowr this? [jones] i think of poet as a worldview.

image, and language are my two main lenses to the world. everything else goes through that. and that comes from poetry. i will take poetry to whatever i do. and think on twitter, in my essays. in the book there is lyricism. there is a poem that opens the book. and i wanted to use what i arned from poetry to color the emotional nuances of what's going on because my prose is actually pretty matter-of-ft, right? the lyricism allows me to, i think, give you somemotional info. k-d then beyond that, i th [smith] you didn't write your memoir as a long poem. there's a reason-- [jones] i sureidn't, my goodness. [smith] well, the point i make is that sometimes form follows function. [jones] form follows function. i mean that's it. [jones] yes, yes. [smith] in this case, the long form saeed has a bigger impact, right-- [jones] thank you. [smith] --than short form saeed. [jones] yeah, d i think, the weird thing about universality is that i think itpe directly connected toficity.

and i think with poetry because you're emphasizing sound and image, you can't just be like, oh, and lexplain the pragmatic, the details. you begin to have to kind of tighten the lens. and so i wanted to open up. i wanted to be able to kinda flesh out this world in a way that prose allows me. [smith] so what do you do next? [jones] i don't know! one, i think atttion is wonderful. and it's bright, and i'm so honored. [smith] also, as yknow, it. [jones] it's fleeting, and it's loud! it's distracting! [smith] yeah. [jones] you do your best work when peotie aren't paying att. and when what you are writing just matters so much to you that you'd be writing it anyway. no one is ever, i hope, gonna hold a gun to my head and say we need another poem! the poems come because i need them here. [smith] got it. [jones] so whatever comes next, things are gonna have to quiet down. and i' write again, in whatever privacy i'm able to construct. [smith] i thinks someone should make a movie of thisook. [jones] ok! [smith] that was my reaction.

[jones] well-- [smith] let's end with a cliffhanger. [jones] ok! (laughing) [smith] let'e if that jams. (laughing) congratulations saeed, thank you so much. [jones] thank you so much. [smith] saeed jones, give him a big hand. good, thank you. (appuding) [smith] we'd love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q&as with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. in new york city where i lived until recently. shedited, i ran a fell program. i was the first lgbt editor ther i started in january 2013 so it was right before so i did all of that, i was editing, assigning, thporting, writing. [syeah. [announcer] funding for "overheard with evan smith" is provided in part by hilo partners, a texas government affairs consultancy, claire and carl stuart, and by laura and john beckworth, hobby family foundation.

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