i wasn't a power thrower. [smith] let me ask you about some of the specific changes to the game if you don't mind, [sm'cause i've watched,about i mean, we all have watched how the rules have changed and how major league baseball has tried to move the game along, make it a faster game. i mean, one thing less related to speed, your last game was in september of '07, right? [clemens] right. so a year later they introduced the instant replay for the first time. has that been a good thing or a bad thing for baseball? [clemens] i think it's helped a lot of the uires that, not that they worry about that, 'cause they're very good. to b to call balls and strikes behind a plate with a guy like myself throwing 95,8 miles an hour with movement on the ball and everything going on. it's such a fast paced game when you're on the field. you don' ssee that sitting in tnds. in the stands it looks fairly methodical and u can see things. but when you're standing at the plate 60 feet from me, 60 feet six inches, it's so fast. but to answer your question, yeah, i think it's helped. you know, it's technology. [smith] of course we got by without it for years. [clemens] we did, but you got chnology and there were a few umpires way back when

that changed a world series on a missed call. and i'm sure they probably wanted it back then too. it'd probably changed their lives a little. [smith] what do you think about limiting mound vits. that was an innovation within the last year or so, right? they intro hced that you could one six mound visits in a game. [clemens] yeah, right. so, i kid out trying to do the speed up in the games. [smith] 'cause all of our kids have no attention span. they want everything over faster. they think it's a video game. [clemens] well, it is, it is. but, you have the, you know, you havei tease my boys about everybody's gotta have a walk up song now so you can walk there and be cool. and all this stuff. you gotta have a walk up song, you gotta have, of course, and your sponsors and everything. so that's gonna take time, too. so, they're trying to speed it up. in the minor leagues they have a pitch clock. but, i just got off the phone two days ago with three minor league guys they've tut from reallygood pis because that 15 second clock hits, grab the ball and they just throw it. they don't exercise their mind or do anything-- [smith] so that's not positive. [clemens] it's not positive but you really have to be

jon the spot and understand what you're trying to do at the plate. [smith] now i see, if i ad the news right, that with next season they're now going to say that ye a minimum number of batters you have to face if you're brought into the game. e saying that if a reliever comes in it'll no longer be one and done, but you have to face a minimum of three batters, unless thereinjury, or the end of an inning. so what do you think about that? [clemens] ween you ask the question i think about two of my teammates that could throw right or left handed. and ad to declare. they had six fingered glove and it was hilarious. the guy would stand in left-handed, myould put his hand on his left hand, and the batter would sneak back over to the right-handed box. he swick over. who's gotta declare? you know, who's gonna declare which way we're gonna go? [smith] why are we monkeying with baseball? baseball survived all these years without this engineering of an outcome, and engineering of a clock. ns] my sons' team are two different teams, too. one of my son's teams want him, they want him making his outs in the air. and trying to hit homers. my other guy wants himoking ups putting the ball in play. so, it becomes, you know, gotta understand which team you're playing for also.

ng so there's a lot gn.know, there's a lot that's going on now with television. i can go, and the work i do with the astros, i'll show up ithe astros, i can go down to their video room, we have stationary cameras. see the catcher's cadence. so you gryta be careful of eing that you do on the field as far as guys giving pitches, folding their arms at second base, and maybe putting their hands on their knees r a pitch away. that's why you see, again the baseball fanatics you'll see a catcher not move. he'll give the sign a fastball away but he'll sit, sit, sit, and thenedime i get my leg stap, then he jumps to the outside corner. which is a problem for two things, most umpires lean put their arm on the back of the, for balance, on the catcher. i've had some fantastic catchers over the years. still, trust your hands. but if my catcher drifts just a little, that umpire, thatborderlinh i'm not gonna get, he thinks it's outside. so there's a lot of stuff that goes in. it's not just see ball, hit ball,

throw ll, there's a lot going on. [smith] i just like simplifying it. now i want it to be, i just wanna believe it's simple. but again, to your point, [clemens] let's go down to this little league fieldown here and we'll just, we'll spit seeds and drink gatorade. (crowd laughing) [sthat's gonna be the greatest day ever, i know, with rer clemens. who was the best hitter you ever faced? this will be like a game show speed round. who was the best hitter you ever faced? [clemens] well, they ask me who the toughest guys and similar to that question, again, what comes to mind when you ask the question, evan, is i wanted to make it to the mor leagues to face reggie jackson. reggie was the guy kinda i watched with the yankees. and when i got to fenway park, reggie was coming to the plate now batting number 44 for the california angels reggie j, and i caught myself, my shoes weren't untied but i was retying and untying, and retying my shoes as he was going to the batter's box. i'm like, oh my gosh. i'm in the big leagues, i'm fixin' to face reggie jackson.

so, and tohis half-shield helmet and those glasses on and, so that's who i wanted to face. my toughest hitters were the contact guys. the big power guys like i would tell, like albert pujols, that albert knew that each at bat he was probably was gonna get one very good pitch to hit. and if hed it or fouled it off, i gotcha. [smith] yeah. [clemens] the contact guys. [smith] but he would get you sometimes also. [clemens] solutely, absolut. a long way he would hit it sometimes. you pitch rs, i've given up some yardage and homers. [smith] right. [clemens] but, the contact guys because of the proximity ofhe ball parks, the biggest foul territories, oakland's colosseum. so, if you make a really good pitch and the guy tries to, you know, guys are so od in the big leagues with their bats. i tell people, it doesn't matter how hard you throw, guys in the big leagues can put wood on a bullet, i mean, they're that good. and they will foul off a very tough pitch, you're hoping it d go in the first or second row, so your pitch count goes up, so you gotta breful with th.

especially, how hard they're watching pitch counts now, you alluded to earlier. you not gonna see to many complete games anymore. and that was, in our generation, i saw the pitching coach come to take me out of the game, i'm giving him tst look that you could ever see. [smith] well, the fact is i think you still hold the record, do you not, for the complete g? i'm giving him tst look that you could ever see. 18 complete games in, [clemensn't know that. [smith] no, i believe you do. and that's extraordinary to me because you think about now how rare it is to see a complete game. to see one complete game. [clemens] it is very rare. [smith] right, the coaches are happy to pull you t and put in a aroldis chapman or a trevor hoffman inare. at the last because they know guy's fresh he can knock 'em all down in the, you know, one, two, three in the end. why would we lettthe pitcher stay in a bit longer? 18 complete games, roger. [clemens] similar to having a really field goal kicker, you know? so, and you're right, six innings, sometimes five innings, the starter's loover his shoulders because you have three, a seventh inning guy that throws 97, an eighth inning guy throws 98, and your closer's coming in throwing 100. and you're trying to protect me on pitch count

because of the dollars you're paying me to make sure that i'm fresh and ready in september and october for a playoff run. [smith] who is the team that you hated playing the most? no matter where you played, you were about to no play those guys played, you started to get all itchy? [clemenswell, i never t itchy. i mean, i was fired up on a wednesday afternoon business special game in milwaukee or-- [smith] diatter. [clemens] no, it didn't matter. [smith] was there a team you hated to play? [clemens] well, i was taught to when i beca a red sox, to hate the yankees. and then when i went to the yankees i was to hate the red sox. right exactly. [smith] so, it's asoring as that. the old rivalries. is when both teams are competitive. when i was with boston, yankees were not very good. i mean, they had don mattingly, a few other guys. but, the blue jays were our kinda rival 'cause they were really winning in the late '80s, early 0s won a couple world series. then when i went to new york and the ownership changed in boston and they got extremely competitive. that's whe that's when you see the great competition

because you are competing for a championship. and if you have pride in what you do and the city wear on your chest, which i was tadmht by a mother and grher who raised me when i watched my mother work three jobs, work her tail off so i could have, we weren't rich by any means, wobut she would work and d have this sweet pair of cleats like the guy down the street, and a really cool red glove so i thought wewere it, yo? so, but i was taught that way and watching my mother work those three js so i had pride when i did that work for those teams. [smith] hodn't make a differenceou were playing you were happy to playing no matter what. [clemens] i was fortunate, [s tth] from the first last. [clemens] yeah, two of the most historic teams and then retire and have t opportunity to come home sleep in my own bed and play, have three wonderful years at my vanced age with the astros, goo the world series. tried to retire again and then yankees called e more season. i told the general manager when he called me, "are you crazy?" he goes, "what are you doing?" i go, atching y'all get swept in cleveland." he goes, "well, how long will it take you to get ready?" and rsgo, "cash, i'm 45 yld." and he goes, "i know. i need you in my fourth and fifth,

but i need you in the locker room and the clubhouse, too." [smith] it was as much about what you did off the field. [clemrns] yeah, so just the ery and keeping teammates on the same page, and you know, hang fun. [smith] so more than 4,600 strikeouts in your career. anonly randy johnson and nryan l had more strikeouts than you did. er three, all time. was there any one strikeout over the course of that that you think about maybe your favorite strikeout. was there a moment over the course of those 24 seasons where you isolate out one time that you faced a batter, or were they all good? [clemens] they were all good. i mean, anytime you can get a strikeout. the ones that are more [cl meaningful, of course,od. is one out man on third and you need a strikeout to keethe inning alive. get a strikeout after one of your teammates have made a ero you get a fourth out, per se, and keep their nam out of the paper for making a big error. [smith] yeah, people forget about that if you get out of the inning. [clemens] that's right, your teammates thank you lot running off the field. but you know what? again, i bring up bill fischer. my pitching coach that i had with tom seaver

and what a luxurit was. you again, talked about it earlier, having that opportunity at 21 years-old, 22 off the campus here at texas, haviwi the opportunity to pla tom seaver and watch him as the truest of power pitchers. but bill fischer still to this day holds the, he did not walk a guy in 89 innings. i think it's 89 or 90, i should know exactly, but it's right in that area. [smith] well, just something crazy. [clemens] heever walked a guy. and, so in both 20 strikeout games he w and he called me on the second, after the second one. and he called me smokey after okey joe wood, the great smokey joe wood. and, said thk i love it that you strt 20 and set the major league record, love it even more so you were throwing at that high rate of speed and you didn't walk anybody. [smith] didn't walk anody. that's a pretty good measure of success. [clemens] those are pretty good. [smith] so i go through l the statistics. i mentioned 354 wins, more than 4,600 strikeouts, seven cy young awards.

no one will ever, i mean that's probably a record that will stand for all time. why are you not in the hall of fame? [clemens] well, writers vote on it. [smith] well, you know what i'm asking about. so seven consetive ballots. your percentage of the vote each has gone up. i think this last year when you were not voted in you got just below 60%. you're eligible for three more years, you gotta get to 75. may be that you don't get in. now, the only thing i could think of is that people have decided, despite what you've said, despite what the court said, despite that you had no failed dr tests, you had no suspensions. people think that you used performance enhancing drugs and they won't vote you in the hall of fame. am i wrong to think that? [clemens] you are if you're looking at facts. but, i can't control, like i said, [clemens] you are if they asked me about the hall, i can't, i have zero control over that. number two is, i didn't really play thgame to worry about making the hall of fame. [smith] that wasn't the point. [clemens] yeah, so after my first couple of years.

the first couple years i was wanting to make a living. [cland i saw that i could my make a great livings. for me and my family. nnter that it was about g championships. but, as far as the voting goes, i ll the guys that vote r you, that's great. in my situatn what i did, we went at it the proper way. like i said, it was, the stuff that i went through was similar to what kavanaugh and all this stuff i see that goes on now with trump and kavanaugh, and all this oth stuff. but, it was pretty much a circus. and it was great that we stopped a couple guys from making money off my name. they were out there claiming they were thisr that, they did this for me, they did that for me, they were out there claiming thed they had book deals and they sold my name to a vitamin company for 300 grand. but nobody writes about that. but we went about it the right way and we handled it properly. [smiu've been adamant from the very beginning, the accusations that were made in the mitchell report and the individuals who made those accusations,

was, "i didn't do it." [clemens] yeah, but there was only one individual and we gave them everything thathey wanted. and we went through it. it was pretty trying, not only, like i said if it have my boys and family and sisters and brothers they were really upset about it all. and, but we handled it the proper y ke i tell people if it happens, if they want to vote it doesn't really matter to me either way, like i said. it's not something that i played for. the guys that look at the facts and do it all isreat. but you have zero control over it, like i said. i think that for me the hall of fame when somebody says, "hey he's a hall of famer," it's kind of a selfish thing. e would be so many people i need to thank including the all the catchers i talked about earlier, players that i played with, man, there's just, it's like i said, not only your family and people that helped you get there, but again the guys that i've been talking to over the last week-- [smith] people who never get the cred.

[clemens] that's right. they'll never have a chance to be in the hall of fame but they were hall of famers to me bethey were fantastic teammates of mine. [smith] so you don't feel cheated? right, you went throug the legal system, you went through the process. first trial was a mistrial, second trial you were found innocent. [clemens] yeah. [smith] like i said, never failed a drug test, never suspended freball. and the allegations against you really only apply to latter parof your career. even if you lop that part off the numbers you put up in the firspart of your career we a hall of fame worteady. so you have no regrets? you don't feel cheated by this? [clemens] solute not. and i can't lop off the second half of my career 'cause it was a wonderful second half of my career or twilight of my career. and, you know, i did it to the fullest. i played the game hard and i played it the right way. so, again like i said, it's like people that for some reason they can say som thing negative about yse days and it gets on the website or something like that and it sticks. so, but again, we went about it right way and i don't think i would change it for a minute. and,i said, we put and made people

that were makingccusations, we pm in their place where they needed to be, and they made a lot of money off my name. it's a shame, like i said, it was just short of preter much of a jerry sprihow. and i like jerry springer, i met jerry springer and i had fun with it, but it was-- [smith] that by the way will be the headline of this interview. you like jerry springer. th be the craziest thing you've said all day. [clemens] yeah, oh yeah, yeah. mith] yeah, okay. your boys, the naming all ur boys with names that begin with k, i get it. that's pretty good. [clemens] it started with the first one and it just started happening. 't[smith] you just coulet, yeah. [clemens] and if we'd tried for a girl i'd be living with you right now she'd kick me right out. well, come on over. it's a little bit like george foreman naming all of his kids george. alth igh, yours is more clevhink actually. [clemens] and i think he's got about eight georges. [smith] he does, it's very confusing at dinner time there in the foreman house. two of your boys played for the university of texas, followed you here. one in the blue jays organization now, one in the tigers organization. were you a good sports dad? or were you a helicopter parent.

[cle tns] yeah, so i just gbe dad until they or their friends io ask me a pointed que or, a coach asks me to come in to address the team. i'll do that. [smith] but that's now. [clemens] yeah. [smith] were you a good sports dad when they were much unger? [clemens] i was the dad that was in charge of the video and wiping the tears and doing the baaids. and i loved that part of it. [smith] just like the rest of us, sort of, weirdly. [clemens] yeah, yeah. [sth] there was nothing ecial about the fact that their dad happens to be roger clemens. [clemens] no. but i was always the one that hado throw the kids pitch 'cause the coaches couldn't throw a strike. so then i went out there and found out just how hard it was to throw a kids pitch. [smith] yeah, but honestly if you're seven years old and you stare up the person throwing kids pitch and it's roger clemens. [clemens] they don't know that. they just know i'm a dad that throws strikes. the other kids-- now, i'll telli'm a you a quick story.ikes. i thought pitcn game 7 of the world series was pressure. pressure is when you get six pitches in dad's pitch and you've thrown five balls and the mom's screaming at you up there at that, "throw my kid a stl.ke, you're a professio that's pssure. you're trying to aim it perfectly at his bat. [smith] why can't you do that?

[clemens] meanwhile, i've got my youngest one whout seven in the little circle with me, that after the kid hits it gotta run off the field. and he's like, "dad, don't let him hit this one, "don't let him hit it, don't let him hit it." so he wants me to throw it past m. so i've got all kinds of stuff happening. [smith] he's just a regular kid. [cleme] oh yeah. [smith] did you encourage them to play? would you have been able to stop them from playing if they'd want to? [clemens] they played a little bit of all the sports. would you have been able to stop them from playing teach you how to get along with others in the work field. i told both young boys i love it that they're chasing theidreams in professional baseball but i love it even more that kacy went through the mccos business school here with colors and kody the communications school. my oldest one, kody, played 10 years. was fantastic never break to make it to the majors. anchhe is teaching now, ws great. number two, he had a little time on campus then he graduated from le cordon bleu here in austin. and as i told you earlier he's doing some real estate.

kody's with the tigers. dy had a-- [smith] proud of all of them. so again, i get to play the dad role when i have to step in with the other people there or they ask me a pointed question i'll give them the best i can or i'll go to one of my teammates. i mean, kacy and them got to run around and watch, you know, and play bat boy and derek jeter's right there and bernie williams, tino martinez, i mean the list goes on and on. mith] well, these kids grew up in an atypical household let's just s. mith] well, these kids grew if they wanted to be baseball players eventually again having you as their dad a littleeird. a little preure. [clemens] i tell people it's kinda wild they see me at the gas station and i'm pumping mygas and , i say yeah, i gotta put gas in my car. you know what i'm saying? [smith] exactly. just because i'm rogerlemens my car doesn't run levitate, right? that's how that goes. what's the most important thing you're doing now after baseball besides being a dad? [clemens] well, my foundfoion, the roger clemendation, we help at risk kids. y [smith] not everybsfoundfoion, the opportunity to do that kind of good work.

[clemens] well, i was one those kids. you know, i was one of those youngsters like i said, i was raised by a very strong willed grandmother and mother. again, with the audience and the viewers. i tip my hat to anybody that's had military or anybody served i tip my hat to all y'all. thank you, and blessings there. thest thing that i ever did in my life has nothing to do really with baseball. it happened because of baseball. i was a new york yankee going for my 20th win against ston red sox. all hell broke loose, as we know. my agents went to high scol with general myers, our four star general he asked me to go to the middle east. we took comedian drew carey with us. n days of just an experience that i will never forget. the pentagon had printed up photos and baseballs for me to sign on the wae over there on air foo. met some of the baddest marines in the planet that make us feel comfortable to go out in public and play a public game. they had two guys cover me the whole trip. it made me lk like a punter.

you think i was big, i looked like a punter standing next to [smith] compared to does guys, right, yeah. [clemens] so ai had seven uncles serve. my brother went to vietnam, my oldest brother. and i tip my hat to everybody in the audience if they've served or their family members, 'cause it was so cool to go over there and semen and women. [smith] so now you get to do good works and regnize good works. [clemens] absolutely. [smith] right, you have any desire to get back in there now and play? [clemens] no, i get to visit with quite-- [smithllso you get a phone ow from somebody. jim crane who owns the astros says, "come on back." [clemens] well, i work for houston now. [smith] right, but he calls you, he says, [cmens] oh, to pitch? [smith] "come on and pitch." [clemens] yeah, it would be like one of those cartoons where i throw it and my arm goes with it. (crowd laughing) that's what would happen. ] we may have to end on a point of disagreement. i still think you could strike out most people. yo roger clemens thannd very much for taking time.. good to be with you. [clemens] thanks for having me. [smith] okay, good, give him a hand. [clemens] thank you. lause) [smith] we'dove to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard

to find invitations to interviews, q and a's with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes. [clemens] the emotns in 24 years. i showed my backide out there probably, six, seven times. not proud of it. probably, six, seven times. but, you know what? i care. i care about my work and i care about how i did my job. y mother when she was alive would call me and say, "honey, could you put your glove." and that's why you see everybody's glove going in front of their face all the time when i wping and saying some things. [female announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners. a texas governaffairs cons. claire and carl stuart. and by e. (bright chiming)

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