robert: a nation divided and a campaign on the bnk. >> the science should not stahe in tay of this. robert: the white house pushes to reopen as experts are sidelined and rebuked. the president's cpaign overhaul stop his slide? or will the virus upend the 2020 campaign? >> open everything now isn't a strategy for success. it barely a slogan. robert: next. announcer: this is "washington week." f corporateding is provided by- >> when the world get complicated, a lot goes through your mind. with fidely wealth management, a dedicated advisor can tailor advice and recommendaons to your life.

that's fidelity wealth management. announcer: additional funding is provided the estate of arnold adams and koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation. committed tog bridg cultural differences in our communities. the corporation for publi broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs ation from viewers like you. thank you. once again, from washington, moderator robert cta.be : good evening. could the virus realign the political map? that is the question on the minds of my i sourceside the trump and biden campaigns tonight. following a week where swing states and red states like texas continue to see a troubling spike in cases and i battlegrounds like georgia, governors and mayors are clashing over wheth to mandate face coverings and to reopen schools this fall.

and inside the wte house top officials tell me they know the trump presidency is on the . line but they say the president remains defiant, keeping dr. anthony fauci out of his inner circle and overhauling his re-election bid this week with his pitch to suburban voters comes down to this. e stick with or else. president trump: your home will go dow in value and crime rates will rapidly rise. joen bided his bosses from the radical left want to significantly multiply what they're doing now and what will be the end result is you will totally destroy the beautiful burbs. robert: he is also attacking the presumptive democraticr nominee working with senator bernie sanders in other liberal democrats. but biden is shrugging it off giving a spee och this weekn climate change and urging the president to listen to health

experts. >> mr. president, please listen to your public healthxpts instead of den grading them. quite pushing the false choice between protecting our health and protecting our economy. all it does is endanger our recovery on both fronts. robert: now let's welcome four of the best reporte and analysts for our conversation. jonathan karl, abc news chief white house correspondent and author of "front row at the trump show." asma khalid, political correspondent for n.p.r toluse olorunnipa, white house reporter forwa "thington post." and amy walter, national editor of the cook political report. amy, welcome back to "washington week." how has the virus and this debate over schools changed the ace?

amy: there's no doubt, bob, that it has changed it dramatically. i mean, if you look at where the president was and where the scussion about the campaign s back in january and februa, it was a question about whether a good economy was going to be enough of a tailwi behind aresident who had middling job approval ratings, somewhere in the mid's or so. days away most 100 from the election. the president's job approval rating now is down to close to 40% in some cases even getting below 40%. he's trailing joe biden in the national polls of course by anywhere from nine points to doanle digit he's losing in all of the battleground states. ann you look at where this you do have to loo to the hink coronavirus pandemic but also th protests around the killing of george floyd in minneapolis

those are two big crises that got put on president trump's plate and as of now, majorities of americans say that they think the president hasot done a good job on both of those. so when you're in the middle of crisis as a sitting incumbent and the majority of amerins think that you are not handling that crisisell, it makes it really, really hard for you to ma case to voters that you deserve another four years. and what we're seeing as you pointed,ut in your openi we're seeing in states across the country not just in thosett ground states but softening numbers in what should be safe redin states uding places like montana, ohio, and iowa. robert: jonathan, what explains then the decision inside the whithouse by the presidento push to reopen the schools? jonathan: well, look, they believe that this is an issue that the president has the support of suburban voters. they kw that -- look, most

americans want the schools to open. most families want their children to go back to school. heck, en mos children want to go back to school. but the issue is they've gone through it with this dictate not with any kind of a plan for doing it safely. so i don't think it has worked the way that they intended it to work but they thought this was an issue. this was an issue that ty would g support including support among the suburban voters who have fled and fled quickly from donaldbu trump. from the beginning of this crisis, these are -- these two crises that amy mentioned are the fir really two external crises hit the trump presidency. and usuay when you have g something ike this happening, there's a rally it's a national crisis. it's affecting everybody. people rally around the president. and if you look back at the polling in late march, early april, there was a moment where

he blipped up. where it was jt over 50%. but in polls over 50% of -- supported his handling of the crisis. i mean, in our last poll, our last abc news poll, it was -- you had about two thirds of the country, two thirds of the country disapproving of his handling of both race relations and the pandemic. robert: amsen, when you -- asma, when you at the biden campaign, he came out with a plan earlier friday about the schools and about his own position. what did you learn from his rollout of his view on educatio asma: well, look, i mean, i ink as everyone doe know, ploost folks, i think jonathan was just putting this out aieot of fam do want to send their children back to school and he acknowledged that but also said ultimately this decision needs to come down to communities in conjunction with science which was a notable choice of words given the press secretary yesterday saying that science should not stand in the

way of opening schools. you know, and he als called for the fact that if he were the president, he said he would immediateln callngress to pass this emergency relief package of $30 billion extra. and the reason he says this is are just cash strapped in order to actually bring kids back to school with smaller class sizes and all the sanitation y equipment tuld need, that they just don't have the resources to do it. and he feels like there's no national federal guideline or response, nor money to back this up. robert: toluse, can you follow up on that point from asma? if vice president biden is coming out and talking about money for americans, is that house and fellow republicans to do another round of stimulus this summer? toluse: yes, there is immense pressure on all of washington and particularly on the white who control the senate to move forward with some kind of relief pa nckage in tt few days and weeks in part because there are a number of things at are going to beir eg

in the upcoming days including the added money for unemployment benefits that have been tiggede over a lot of americans. extra $600 aeek that has allowed americans to continue ying their rent, paying their mortgages, paying fir -- you know, everyday monthly bills. that's going to expire in a matter of day ifongress doesn't act. and there are a number of other issues even though the president wants to o say we'ren a great american comeback, transition to greatness, jobs are coming back, there are still millions of americans who need some kind of relief in order to tet backo some sense of normalcy in order for schools to be able to open and in order for local governments to be able to functn and in order for families to be able to keep putting food on the table and payingheir bills. they're looking for some kind of relief, some kind of a benefit from the government and right now, the two sides the two parties are so far apart, democrats have an idea of what they want. the president has an idea of what hets w and republicans have an idea of what they want. and they're not on the same page yet and it'sot clear that they're going to be able to get on the same pe.

but there is high pressure on them all to be able to get in a homnd put f a package that the american people can benefit from. ee robert: we'll an eye on that. let's come back to the political map, amy. al when i wasng to some white house sources earlier today, they were looking at ther journal onhether there could be a realignment in the south. and i know the cook report has be studying states like north carolina. when you see the spike, not b just ie states, in blue cities, but in red states, in swing state are we looking as cook reported at a possible blue tsunami and a realignme in the south and the sunbelt? amy: you know, the real question is -- and john brought it up earlier about this -- suburban vote. suburban voters as we saw in 2018, they moved en masse against donald trump. isat we don't know is as one democratic stratsaid to me the other day, wheer democrats are justes renting voters during the trump era or whether these vers ve

ruly realigned to the democratic side. we're going to find out in a post-trump era but f this moment, it seems as if t suburban vote is actually getting worse for trump, not better. and part of that reason is when he makes those comments as you put in that clip there about your hou values are going to go dowand there's violence in to do all these terrible ing thins, he' speaking of a suburban america that quite frankly doesn't really exist in the same way it did 20, 30, 40 years ago. part of the reason the suburban vote has become much more democratic is it's also become less white. it has become mu more diverse. and that has helped to move it.a butwell as this feeling of frustration, of these voters about the last four years under donald trump. robert: jonathan, that's a great poi by amy when the white house and the president talk about the suburban vote, when they u thathrase, are they really talking about the white vote?

president's h comments this week and spoke about violence against whites you see him cing to cbs news. defend the use of the confederate flag as free speech even as secretary esper and the pentagon move away earlier friday froaving that flag be on military bases. what's goiid on i the west wing? jonathan: well, sure seems to be that's what they're looking at a looking at white voters, white women voters. but i don't know who they thi or who the president thinks in suburbs across the country are rallying around the confederate it's an odd strategy. but that's -- that's what he's -- thas what he's pursuing. it's been strikg. but i think it'set sng that doesn't -- this is not a from the white house political operation or from the trump campaign. this is trump going with his gut. he thinks he's going to be ther law and or candidate. he thinks he's going to go out there and rally these -- these

voters, these suburban voters, white suburban voters. but you ow, he's going around fo the past several weeks doing eventf s, someem increasingly elaborate events aimed at just about every issue except for the issue that is first and foremost onopo many 's minds and that's fear of the pandemic. this event that he had yesterday at the white house was really something special. u saw all -- you had a big red pickup truck, a big blue pickup truck packed with weights, massive weights that looked like thewere out of a road runner cartoon. and in the red truck had the weights being pu alled up by crane that said "trump administration." it's this elash rat staging and this effort -- elaborate staging and you put it well vote for me or else, o total disaster comes. and i'm not sure that -- how many voters in these key swing

suburban areas thinkhat trump is going to be the person that's going to prevent them from totally annihilation which is literally what he is saying. robert: asma, when the biden campaignears the president in the rose garden go after the former v.p. on china and ties him to senator sanders and the left wing of the democratic party are they concerned that their support among swingte in suburban -- and suburban voters could erode? or think a weak attack from the president? . amy: they would say it's a distraction. the bidenampaign tolde one of their most effective weapons against donald trump is trump himself. what he says, now he behaves, how he acts. and i think that part of the difficulty for the trump campaign has been that -- to some degree joe biden has been this sort of shadow visible opponent, right? he doesn't have antr elaborate el schedule. he hosts maybe one in opinion person plic event a week or so. and there's not nearly

opponent for donald trump to barter with and go back and forth with and jab with and that's what he thrives off of. biden i would say has stuck remarkably well to a focused ssage around the pandemic. here and there, he will jab at prestent trump. outraged by particular twitter messages that the president said and i think that has made it challenginghe for president to engage with him. because really he has stayed fosed on the pandemic and i will say, i spent some time recently in both michigan and wisconsin. he talked about the subban voters. i think that by and large what they're looking for in this moment of time is somebody who is a steady, experienced hand. parts of this country and in people are not looking for somebody who is goin to pick a fight say with bubba wallace and looking for somebody who is going to provide some sort of leadership in this particular moment. robert: toluse, just one more here on the campaign. i was watching vice president pence today in wisconsin. and he kept hammering this

theme about vice president biden being too far to theft tying him to socialism. but when you think about that speech by the v.p., and when stefien about bil new campaign manager replacing brad partale what is n for the trump campaign? toluse: yeah, bob. add good story about this this morning andt the p you have the vice president and you have people around the president putting forward at somew cohesive nartive about why president trump should be re-elected, whyoe biden is the wrong man for this moment. but it doesn't mat pr int because president trump is on a completely different page. he's talking about as asma said things about bubba wallace and tweeted about all of the various books that haveit been n and tell-all books that have been written about him and how he's -- the victim of campaigns to take him out and talking about joe biden and former president barack obama, ioying on his campaign. all these var conspiracy theories and things that the american people are not focused on or don't eve really want to

hear about at thisoment. so even if they bring in new people, even if brad parscale getsemoted from campaign manager and bring in bill stepie as long as president trump has access to his twitter account and the president can continue tose the white house grounds as you know a pseudo campaign operation, and give campaign-style stream of consciousness speeches from the rose garden not much is going to change because the president is the one leading his campaign, not bill stepien and arnot bradscale and even if ivice president mike pencs sticking to the script and sticking to the narrative and putting together an argument r why they should be re-elected, president trump is doing something completely different and that's going to t makeery difficult for his campaign to rally around a single cohesive message over the next 100 days. robert: and jonathan,iceal i want to pause here because i don't want to forget jonathan about what's going on thisr.hole week with fauci. president and allies day the

after day asserting more ntrol over information and the admintration ordered hospital to bypass the c.d.c. and send patient information to another data base. and vice president pence urged schools to reope and take their cues from the white house. >> very clear, we don't want c.d.c. guidance to be a reason why people don't reopen their schools. robert: and dr. anthony fauci was attacked in a "usa today" op-ed by peter navarro, one of the president's trade advisor. fauci responded in an interview with the atlantic. >> it is a bit bizarre. i don't really fully understand it. if you talk to reasonable people in the white house, they realize that was a major mistake ont their p because it doesn't do anythin but reflect poorly them. i can't explainro peter nav naes world by himself. so i don't even want to go ther robert: jonathan, i know you want to jump in.

this was a week where politics d the political m seemed to be scrambled. just weeks ahead of the convention. t also an important week of the inside the white house of the president and his allies saying to dr. fauci and others, we're in control. jonathan: yea k and yw the white house press secretary came out and tried to totally deny the idea thatas thereny tension between the president and dr. fauci. in fact, what she said is this whole idea of fauci versus the president co uldn't be furthe from the truth. and she went out and said that - as you know, navarro was writing that op-ednd it would appear the next day. but even before she came out and said that, dan scavino w outranks the press secretary, deputy chief of staff for two or closest advisors he top to the president in thatte w house, posted a cartoon mocking fauci on h facebook page. a rather crude, you know, cartoon. an the president himself has

repeatedly said that -- areas where fauci was wrong. e white house was distributi bullet points saying -- listing things that fauc had said over the last course of the last several months that turned out to be wrong. robe jonathan: the chief of staff, mark meadows, went on foxer yey and took another shot at fauci even as he was saying to writehat op-ed.t authorized it's rher -- it's rather strange because as fauci himself points out, fau is part of the team. i mean, he's somebody that the president has pn that task force to advise him on the single greatest challengefa ng his administration. so how do you kick the guy that you' counting on to help y get out of this? robert: asma, i was struck by something you said on n.p.r. this week that this is more than a personality contest. this is -- or a clash. this is mixed messages on a pandemic from the government.

asma:h. y and i will say that -- i mean, i think that's what's been sort of astounding about this whole message is that t whenk to voters and again, these are independent voters that i spend a lot of a time with speaking to folks who traditionally had been republican for many previous cycles, there is a sense that they want sort of a clear steady scientific driven response to the pandemic and you're not heang that because this is, you know, mixed messages in the point of a crisis. an i think look, the president has had personality clashes with many people within his own orbit and people from oosing parties. and so i don't think that's anything to be particularly surprised about. but in the midst of a pandemic when already a majority of the u ic disapproves of the way he's handling the crisis, i think it just really doesn't even help frankly his political re-election chances at this point. robert:ole, why does dr. fauci stay? why does he not resign even when he's challenged to hisfa publicly by peter navarro

and the president lets navarro stay? toluse: yeah. we have to remember that dr. fauci was here long before president tru and his administration got here. and he likely even though he's 79 years old hlikely will stay for quite a while. because he said in interview this is week he feels like he's efctive and feels libe he's good at his j feels like the country needs his expertise at this moment. and he does not get flustered by some of the attacks some of the political attacks. he's kind of known as a straight shooter. heheets some of things roll off his back. and he's willing to kind of look the public in the face ande say this is truth. this is the science. this is what you need to do. and tere aren'tt many voices around president trump who are willing to say things like tyat if t contradict the president. and i think fauci believes that his eertise and his willingness to be a straight shooter is needed all the more in the age of tru where you have so many people around the agesident who are excusing some of his lan or trying to, you know, shade some of his sounds so that

better than it actually is. and fauci is trying to help the public get through this pandemic by telling them the truth and the fhits. and i he feels that his expertise and his willingness to do thats in high need at this moment where we are seeing record numbers of cases on a daily basis. robert: amy, can f youlow up on that? real quick from amy about hbl reans process all of this. because you study the polls. larry hogan, maryland's, govern republican, came out with a tough op-ed about the president this week. but do you believe other republicans will start to crack in the coming weeks and mths as the polling slides perhaps and the president con ttinues assert independence from his own officials? amy: yeah. i have yet to find one republican, even those who defend the president on so many other things, w tnk that picking a fight with anthony fauci who by the way has approval ratings somewhere in that said, you know, if you are

a candidate for congress, you're down ballot, you are really in a jam with this president. because making are with him obviously comes with some cost. th is a president who doesn't like to see members of his own and will come out and chastise those people. and will really hurt those candidates with the kind of vote they need in the republican base. so what ihink you're goin to see instead and we're starting to see this already, republicans in these blue or purple states really driving home messages about how they're bringinghings back to the state which is why it's so importants toluse brought t y to get a package, a reall serious package that those members of congress can talk about when they're on the o campai trailhey don't have to talk about donald trump. robert: jonathan, you're a tv guy. you have about 20 seconds. jonathan: well, you know, the thing with fauci, amy mentions

his high approval ratgs. you would think that would be a good thing for the trump white house. but that actuallier tates the president. -- actually ear tates the president. p he tracks thol ratings and doesn't plirke the fact dr. anthony fauci has higher approval ratings than he does. robert: well, we have toeave there. really appreciate everybody's insights tonight. and your time. jonathan karl, asma khalid, toluse olorunnipa, and amy walter. and thank you all for joining us. we will keep taking you as close to the news as we can our conversation will continue on our extra, find it on our social media and on our website. i'robert costa. good night from washington. aptioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is respocaible for its ion content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

announcer: corporate funding for "washington week" is provided by -- >> when the world get complicated, a lot goes through your mind. with fidelity wealthge mant, a dedicated advisor can tailor advice and recommendations toou ylife. that's fidelity wealth management. anuncer: additionalunding is proded by the estate of arnold adams and koo and patricia yuen through the yuent foun. committed to bridging cultural differences our communities. the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> you're watching pbs.

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