robert: aio n divided and a campaign on the brink. th the science should not stand in the way of . bert: the white house pushes to reopen schools. as experts are sidelined and rebuked. can the president's campaign overhaul stop his sde? or will the virus upend the 20 campaign? >> open everything now isn't a strategy f success. it's barely a slogan. robert: next. announcer: this is "washington week." corporate funding is provided by -- complicated, a lot goes through your mind. with fidelity wealth management, a dedicated advisor can tailor advice and recommendations to your life.'s

th fidelity wealth management. announcer: additional funding provided by the estate of arnold adams and koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation. committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station frviewers like you. thank you. once again, from washington, moderator robert cta. robert: good evening. could the virus realign the political map? that is the question on the minds of my sources inside the trump and bidenns campa tonight. following a week where swing states and red states like texas continue to see a troubling spike in cases and in battlegrounds like georgia, governors and mayors are clashing over whethero mandate face coverings and to reopen schools thisall.

and inside the white house top officials tell me they know the line. presidency is on the hey say the president remains defiant, keeping dr. anthony fauci out of his inner circle and overhauling his re-election bid this week with a new campaign manager. his pitch suburban voters comes down to this. stk with me or else. president trump: your home will go down i valuend crime rates will rapidly rise. joe biden and his bosses from the rical left want to significantly multiply what they're doing now and what will the end result is you will totally destroy the beautiful suburbs. robert: he is also attacking the presumptive democratic nominee for working with senator bernie sanders in other liberal democrats. but biden is shrugging it off giving a speech this week on climate change and urging the

teesident to l to health experts. >> mr. president, please listen to your public health experts instead of den grading the quite pushing the false choice between protectingur health and protecting our economy. all it does is endanger our recovery on both fronts. robert: now let's welcome f of the best reporters and analysts for our conversation. jonathan karl, abc news chief white house correspondent and author of "front row at the trump show." asma khalid, politicalpo corrent for n.p.r. toluse olorunnipa, white house reporter for "the washington post." and amy walter, national editor of the cookal politeport. amy, welcome back to "washington week." how has the virus and this debate over schoolshaed the 2020 race?

am there's no doubt, bob, that it has changed it dramatically. i mean, iyou look at where the president was and where the discussion about the campaign s back in january and february, it was a question about whether a good economy was going to be enough of a tailwi behind a president who had middling job appro ratings, somewhere in the mid 40's or so. we're no almost 100 days away from the election. the president's jobpproval rating now is down to close to 40% in some cas even getting below 40%. he's trailing joe biden in the national polls of course by anywhere from nine points to double digits and he's losing in all of the battleground states. and when you look at where this inflection point began, i think you do have to look to the coronavirusmi pan but also the protests around the kling of george floyd in minneapolis.

those are two big crises that got put on president trump's plate and as of now, majorities of americans say that they think the president has not done a good job on botthh of e. so when you're in the middle of a crisis as a sitting incumbent an majority of americans think that you are not handling that crisis well, it makes it really, rlly hard for you to make the case to voters that you deserve another four years. andeehat we'reing as you pointed out in your opening, we're seeing in states across ot the country just in those battleground states but softening numbers in wha should be safe red states including places like montana, ohio, and iowa. robert: jonathan, what explains then the decion inse the white house by the president to push to reopen the schools? jonathan: well,y look, t believe that this is an issue that the president has the support of suburban voters. they know that -- look, most t

americans wa schools to be open. most families want their children to go backo school. heck, even most children want to go back to school. but the issue is they've gone through it wit this dictate not with any kind of a plan for doing it safely. so i don't think it has word e way that they intended it to work but they thought this was an issue. this was an issue that they would get support including pport among the suburban voters who have fled and fled quickly from donald trump. but from the beginning of this crisis, these are -- these two ises that amy mentioned are the first really two external crises to hit the trump presiden. and usuallhen you have something big like this happening, there's a around the flag effort. it's a national crisis. it's affecting everydy. people rally around the president. and if you look back at the polling in late march, early april, there was a moment where

he blipped up. where it was just over 50%. but in polls over 50% of -- supported his handlingf the crisis. that's far gone. i mean, in our last poll, our last abc news poll, it was -- you had about two thirds of the try, two thirds of the handling of both race relations and the pandemic. robert: aen, when you -- asma, when you look at the biden campaign, he came out with a plan earlier friday about e schools and about his own position. what did you learn from his rollout of his view on education?ll asma: look, i mean, i think as everyone does know, ploost folks, i t was just putting this out a lot of families do want to send their children back to scho and he acknowledged that but also said ultimately this decision needs to come down to specific state and localit comms in conjunction with science which was a notable choice of words given the press secretary yesterday saying that science should not stand in the

way of opening schools. you know, and he also called for the fact that if he were th president he said he wld immediately call on congress to pass this emergency relief package of $30 billion extra. and the reason he sa this is necessary is because schools are just cash strapped in order to actually bring kids back to school with smallerlass sizes and all the sanitation equipment they would need, that they just don't have the resources to do it. and he feels like there's no national federal guideline orre onse, nor money to back this up. robert: toluse, can you follow up on thatoint from asma? if vice president biden is coming out and talking about more money for states, more money for americans, is that putting pssure on the white house and fellow republicans to do another round of stimulus this summer? toluse:he yes, t is immense pressure on all of washington and particularly on the white house and on the republicons whool the senate to move foard with some kind of relief paage in the next few days and weeks in part because there are a number of things that are going to be expiring

in the upcoming days including the added money for unemploymentenits that have been tiggede over a lot of americans. extra $600 a week that has allowed americans to continue ying their rent, paying their mortgages, paying for flair -- you know, everyday monthly bills. that's going to expire in a matter of days if congress doesn't act. and there are a number of other issues even though the president wants to saye're on a great american comeback, transition to greatness, jobs are coming back, there are still millions of americans who need som kind of relief in order to get back s toe sense of normalcy in order for schools to be able to open and in order forocal governments to be able to function and in order for families to be able f to keep puttid on the table and paying their bills. they're looking for some kind of relief, some kind of added nefit from the government and right now, the two sides the two parties are so far apart, democrats have an idea of what they want. the president has an idea of and republicans have an idea of what they want. and they're not on the same page yet ale it's not that they're going to be able to get on the same pe.

them all to be able to get in a roomnd put foth a package that the american people can benefit from. rort: we'll keep an eye on that. let's come back to the political map, amy. when i was talking to some white house sources earlier today, they were looking at the journal story onhethre could be a realignment in the south. and i know the cook report has been studying states like north carolina. when you see the spike, not just in blue states, in blue cities, but in red states, in swing state are we looking as cook reported at possible blue tsunami and a realignment in the sou and the sunbelt? amy: you know, the real question is -- and john brought it up earlier about this -- suburban vote. suburban voters as we saw in20 , they moved en masse against donald trump. what we don't i knows as one democratic strategist said to me the other day, wheer democrats are just renting these voters during the trump era or whether these vers

have truly realigned to the democratic side. we're going to findn out i a post-trump era but f this moment, it seems as if the suburban vote is actually getting worse for trump, not better. and part of that reason is when s you s those comments a put in that clip there about your house values are going to go down and there's violence in the cities and biden is gng to do all these terrible things, he's speaking of a suburban america that quite frankly doesn't really exist in the sameid way it 20, 30, 40 years ago. part of the reason theuburban vote has become much more democratic is it's also become less white. it has become much more diverse. and that has helped to move it. but as well as this feeling of frustration, of these voters urabout these last years under donald trump. robert: jonathan, that's a great pointy amy. when the white house and the president talk about the that phrase, they really se talking about the white vote?

you look at the president'smm ts this week and spoke about violence against whites in an ierview with cbs news. you see him continuing to defend the use of thenf erate flag as free speech even as secretary esper and the ntagon move away earlier friday from having that flag be on military bases. what's going on inside the west wing? jonaan: well, sure seems to be that's what they're looking at and looki at white voters, white women voters. or who the president thinks in suburbs across the country are rallyi around the confederate flag. it's an odd strategy. but that's -- that's what he's -- that's what he's pursuing. it's been strikg. but i think it's something tha doesn't -- this is not a strategic plan that is emerging from t white house political operation or from the trump this is trump going with his gut. he thinks he's going to be the law and order candidate. he thinks he's going to go out there and rally these -- these

voters, these suburban voters, white suburban voters. but you know, he's gng arod for the past several weeks doing events, som of them increasingly elaborate events aimed at just about eve issue except for the issue that is first and foremost on so many ds people's mnd that's fear of the pandemic. this event that he had yesterday at the white house was really something special. you saw all -- you had a big red pickup truck, a big blue pickup truck packed with weights, massive weights that road runner cartoon.e out of a and in the r truck had the weights being pulled upy a crane that said "trump administration." it's this elash rat staging and this effort --laborate staging and you put it well vote for me or else, or else ntal disaster comes. and i'm sure that -- how suburban areas think that trump

is going to be the person that's going to prevent them from totally annihilation which is literally what he isg. say robert: asma, when the biden campaign t hears president in the rose garden go after the former v.p.n china and ties him to senator sanders and the left wing of the democratic party are they concerned that their support among swing voters in suburban -- and suburban voters could erode? or think a weak attack from the president? . amy: they would say it's a distraction. the biden campaign told me one of their most effective weapons against donald trump is trumpms f. what he says, now he behaves, how he acts. and ihink that part of the difficulty for the trump campaign has been that -- to some degree joe biden has been this sort o shadow visible opponent, right? he doesn't have an elaborate travel schedule. he hosts maybe one in opinion person public event a week or so. and there's not nearly anor

opponentonald trump to barter with and go back and forth with and jab with and that's what hehrives off of. biden i would say has stuck remarkably well to a focused message aroun the pandemic. here and there, he will jab at president trump. but he's not really gettaging ou by particular twitter messages that the president said and i think that has made it challenging for the president to engage with him. because really he has stayed focused o the pandemic and i will say, i spent some time recently in both michigan and wisconsin.he talked about the s voters. i think that by and large what they're looking for in this moment of t e is somebody w is a steady, experienced hand. and the pandemic is soaring in parts of is country and people are not looking for somebody who is goingo pick a fight say with bubba wallace and looking for somebody who is going to provide someort of leadership in this particular moment. robert: toluse, just one more here othe campaig i was watching vice president pence today in wisconepn. and he hammering this

theme about vice president biden being too far to the left, tying him to socialism. but when you think about that speech by the.p and when you think about billw stefien campaign manager replacing brad parscale what is next for the trump campaign? toluse: yeah, bob. add good storyt abouis this morning and the post you have the vice president and you have people around the president putting forward a somewhat cohesive narrative about why president trump should be re-elected, why joe biden is the wrong man for this moment. because president trump is on a completely different page. he's talking abasousma said things about bubba wallace and tweeted about all of the various books that have been l- written and tl books that have been written about him and how he's -- the victim of campaigns to take him out. and talking about joe biden and rmer presidentba barack, spying on his campaign. all these various conspiracy theories and things that the american people are not focused on or don't even really want to

hear about at thisoment. so en if they bring in new people, even if brad parscale ge demoted frocampaign manager and bring in bill stepien, as long president trump has access to his twitter account and the president can continue to use the white house grounds as you know a pseudo campaign operation, and give campaign-style stream consciousness speeches from the rose garden not much is going to change because the president ishe one leading his campaign, not bill stepien and not brad parscale and even if sticking to the script and sticking to the narrative and putting together an argument for why they should re-elected, president trump is doing something completely different and that's going to make it veryficult for his campaign to rally around a single cohesive message over the next 100 days. robert: and jonathan, real quick, i want to pause here because i don't want toorget jonathan about what's going on this whole week with dr. fauci. i mean, this week, you had the president and his allies day

after day asserting more control over information and the administration order hospital to bypass the c.d.c. and send patient informationo another data base. and vice president pence urged schools to reopen and take their cues from the white house. >> to be very clear, weon't want c.d.c. guidance to be a reason why peopln don't reo their schools. robert: and dr. anthony fau was attacked in a "usa today" op-ed by peter navarro, onee of resident's trade advisor. fauci responded in an interview with the aantic. >> it isiz bitarre. i don't really fully understand it. if you talk to reasonable ople in the white house, they realize that was a major mistake on theirec partse it doesn't do anything but reflect poorly m. t i can't explain peter navarro. naes world by himself. so i don't even want to go there.: robenathan, i know you want to jump in.

this was a week where politics and theolitical map seemed to be scrambled. just weeks ahead of the convention. but also annt imporeek of the inside the white house of the president and his allies saying to dr. fauci and others, we're in control. jonathan: yeah. and you know the white house press secretary came out and tried tootally deny the idea that there was any tension between the president and dr. fauci. inact, what she said is this whole idea of fauci versus the president couldn be further om the truth. and she went out and said that as -- you know, navarro was writing that op-ed and it would appear the next day. but eve before she came out and said that, dan scavino w outranks the press secretary, deputy chief of staff for communications, one of the top two or three closest advisors to the president in that white house, posted a cartoon mocking fauci on hiseb fk page. a rather crude, you know, cartoon. andhe president himself has

repeatedly said thare--s where fauci was wrong. the white house was stributing bullet points saying -- listing things that fauci had said ove the last course of the last veral months that turned out to be wrong. robert: right. jonathan: the chief of staff, mark meadows went on fox yesterday and took another shot at fauci even as he was sing that navarro wasn't authorized to write that op-ed. it's rather --t' i rather strange because as fauci himself points out, fauci is part of the team. i mean, he'sebody that the president has put on that task force to advise him on single greatest challenge facing his administration. so how do you kick the guy that you're counting on to help you get out of this? robert: asmas i struck by something you said on n.p.r. more eek that this is than a personality contest. this is mixed messages on a pandemic from the government.

asma: yeah. and i will say that -- i mean, i think that's what's been sort of astounding about this whole message is that when i talk to voters and again, these are independenots that i spend a lot of time with and speaking to folks who traditionally r ha beublican for many previous cycles, there is a sense that they want sort of a clear steady scientific driv response to the pandemic and you're not hearing that because this is, you know, mixedme ages in the point of a crisis. and i think look, the president has had personality clashes with many pe hle with own orbit and people from opposing parties. and so i don't think that's anything to be particularly surprised about. but in the midst of a pandemic when alrdy a majority of the public disapproves of the way he's handling the crisis,in it just really doesn't even help frankly his political re-election chaes at this point. robert: toluse, why does dr. fauci stay? even es he not resign when he's challenged to his face publicly by peter navarroh

andresident lets navarro stay? toluse: yeah. we have to remember that dr. fauci was here long before president trump and his administration got here. and he likely even though he's 79 years old hlikely will stay for quite a while. because he said in interview th h is week he feels liks efctivand feels libe he's good at his job and feels like the country needs his expertise at this moment. and he does n get flustered by some of the attacks, some of the political attacks. he's kind of known as a straight shooter. he lets some of these things roll off his back. look the public in the face and say this is the truth. this is what you to do. and there aren't that many voices around president trump who are willing to say things like that if they contradict the president. and i think fau believes that his expertise and his willingness to be a straight shooter is needed all the more in the age of trump where you have so many people around t president who are excusing some of his language or trying to,, you knhade some of his language so that it sounds

better than it actually is. and fauci is tryin to help the public get through this pandemic by tellingm t the truth and the facts. and i think he feels that his expertise and his willingness to do that is in high need at this moment where we are seeing record numbers of cases on daily basis. robert: amy, can you follow up on that? ssal quick from amy about how republicans proll of this. because you study the polls. larry hogan, maryland's governor, aublican, came out with a tough op-ed about the president this week. buto you believe other republicans will start to crack in the coming weeks and months as the polling slides perhaps and the president continues to assert independence from his own officials? amy: yeah. i have yet to find oneev republican those who defend the president on so many other things, who think that picking a fight with anthony fauci who by the way has approval ratings somewhere in the 's, was a good idea. that said, you know, if you are

a candidate for congress, really in a jam with this president. because making a break with him obviously comes with some cost. this is a president who doesn't likeo see members of his own party contradict him publiy. and will come out and chastise those people. and will really hurt those ndidates with the kind of voters they need in the republican base. so what i think you're going t see instead and we're starting to see this already, republicans in these blue or purple states really driving home messages about howre the bringing things back to the state which is whyt'so important toluse brought this up to gepackage, a really serious package that those members ofca congrestalk about when they're on the campai trail so they don't have to talk about donald trump. a tv : jonathan, you'r guy. you have about 20 seconds. jonathan: well, you know, the thing wh fauci, amy mentions his high approval ratings.

you would think that would be a good thing for the trump white house. but that actuallier tates the esident. -- actually ear tates the president. he tracks those poll ratingsn' and do plirke the fact dr. anthony fauci has higher approval ratingsehan h does. robert: well, we have to leave it there. really appreciate erybody's insights tonight. and your time. jonathan karl, asma khalid, toluse olorunnipa, and amy walter. and thank you all for joining us. we will keep taking you as close the tews as we can. r conversation will continue on our extra, find it on our social media and on our website. i'robert costa. good night frowashington. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

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