>> this program was made poible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station om viewers like you. thank you. inewshour produ, llcd by >> i am judy woodruff and welcome to the "pbs newshour" special coverage of the first 2020 presidential debate. in jt a few moments president donald trump and former vice president joe biden will be a in the spotlight in cleveland, ohio in their first one on one debate. it's the first of three presidential debates and one vice presidential debate, ahead of election day on november 3rd. due to the pandemic, ony about

80eople will be in the audience in person tonight on the campus of casete wes reserve university, which is cohosting the event with the cleveland clinic. >> the moderator is fox news' chris wallace, we at the newshour are practicing social distancing while i am broadcasting from our sturedio, ourters and analysts will join us remotely. that's white house correspondent yamiche alcindor, congrsional correspondence, lisa desjardins who is covering the biden campaign, amna nawaz will be watching the debate with a half a dozen voters from around the country. amy walter of the cook political report, along with "washington post" contributing columnist gary abernathy, joining us from ohio, and syndicad columnist cynthia tucker in alabama, welcome to all of you and we are gog to ask yu no for a quick word from each one of you starting with yiche, tell us how is the president prering. t

president did not do traditional debate pre'tp, he waaving mock debates or having anybody play his political opponent. what he was doing was testing out attacks on joe biden in the media, in answering questions from reporters, but we can expect the presiden really go after joe biden in very personal terms, he is goi to go after hunter biden and go after joe biden's history and, record on chi the criminal justice system, on so many othe fronts, esident is really someone who is going to make this in some ways bwls, he is looking for a street fight so feel he is confident and that he will do a good job here. >> woodruff: so mnwhile, lisa desjardins, who su joe biden preparing? >> the biden a camp has a more traditional preparation, joe biden has prepared for this s momece 1987, the first time he ran for president, tonight they say he will defend, his recut also go after president trump when needed, the question will be, when does he

engage with president and when does he step back and let viewers decide the president's words for himself. >> woodruff: to amy walter, amy what is the one thing you are looking for tonight? >> well, it is unlikely we are going to see over might that opinions about either of these candidates are going to change. at i am really looking for is to see if the narrative changes in the next few days afterhis debate, is donald trump able to get off his back foot on to his front foot and make it aboutme ing other than his own challenges and make it about the shortcomings of joe biden. >> amna nawaz you will watch with a group of voters fromar nd the country, have they made their minds up yet? >> judy, most of them have, we assembled a group of six people from around the country, frotem essee, ohio, pennsylvania, new jersey, south carolina and california, three for biden, three for trump, only one said t he was op changing his mind. >> woodruff: we will be comingte back to you the debate. right now as you see, debate moderator chris wallace about to introduce the candidates, let's

go to cleveland now as this debate gets underway. >> good evening from the health education campus of case western reserve university and the cleveland clinic. i am chris wallace of fox news, and i welcome you to the first of the 2020 presidential debates. between president donald j. trump and former vice president joe biden this debate is sponsored by the mission on presidential deates. the commission has designed the format, six m roughly 15inutes segments with two-minute answers from each candidate to therst question, then open discussion for the rest of eachegment. both campaigns have agreed to these rules. for the record, i decided the topics and the questions in each topic. i can assure you none of the questions have been shared with the commission or thewo candidates. this debate is being conducted protocols designed by the cleveland clinic, which is serving as the health security

advisor to the commission for all four debates. as a precaution, both cahampaigs agreed that the candidates will not shake hands at the beginning of tonight's debate. the audience here in the hall have promised to remt,ain sil no cheers, no boos or other w interruptionand more importantly you can focus on what the candidates have to say. no noise except right now as wec e the epublican nominee president trump. and the democratic nominee vice esident biden. [ applause ] >> how are you doing, man? >> how are you?ng >> d well. gentlemen, a lot of people have been waiting for this night, so let's get going.

our first subject is the supreme court. president trump, y nominated amy coney barrett over the weekend to succeed the late ruth bader ginsburg on the court. you say the constitution is clear about your obligation and ate sens to consider a nominee to the court. vice president biden, you say that this is an effort by the president and republicans to jam through an appntment in what you call an abuse of power. my first question to both of you tonight, why are you right in the argument you make, and your opponent wrong and where do you ink a justice barrett would take the court? >> preside trs ump in thifirst segment you go first, two minutes. >> thank you very much, chris. i will tell you very simply we won thect elen. elections have consequences. we have the senate, we have the white house and we have a phenomenal nominee, rpected by all, top, top acadec, good in

every way, good in every way. in fact, some of her biggest endorsers are very liberal people from notrerdame and oth places. so i think she is going to be fantastic. we have plenty of time, even if we did it after the election after the election as you know. so i think that she will be outstanding. she is going to be as good as anybody that has served on that court. we have a professor at notre dame highly respected by all says he is the sigle greatest student he has ever had and been a professor for a long time at a great school and we just -- wewo the election and, therefore, we have the right to choose her and very feweople knowingly would say otherwise, and by the way the democrats thewouldn' even think about not doing it, the only difference is they asuld try to do it fter there ga no way they would give it up. they has merricland but the problem is they didn't have the election, so they were stopped, and probay that would happen

in reverse also, definitely would happen in reverse. so we won the election and we have the right to do it, chris. >> president trump, thank you. same question to you, vice president biden, you have two minutes. >> first of all, thank you for doin this, mr. president. >> the american people ve a right to have a say in who the supreme court nominee is and that say occurs when they vote for a united states senators and when they vote for the president of the united states. they are not going to get that cans now because we are in the middle of n election already. the election has already oarted. tens of thousan people have already voted. and so the thing that should happen iwe shod wait. we should wait and see what the outcome of this election is, because that's the oay the american people get to express their view is by who they elect as president and who they elect now, what is at stake here the

president wants to get rid of the affordable care act, he ran on that and has been governing he is in the suprurt right now trying to get rid of theab affo care act, which will strip 20 millioneople from having insurance, health , surance now, if they -- if it goes in the coud the justice and i have nothing -- i am not opposed to the jstice, she seems like a very fine person, but she has written before she went on the, ben which is her right that she thinks that affordable care act is not constitutional. the other thing that is on the court, and ruck down what happens. wins rights are fundamentally changed. once again, a woman could be held -- more money because she has a preexisting condition inna pry and able -- they are able to charm a woman more for the exact sam ae proceduan gets and that ended when we, in fact, passed the affordable care act. and there are 100 million people that have preexisting conditionw and thl be taken away as

well. those preexisting conditions, insurance companies are going to love this. and so it is just not appropriate to do this before this election. if he wins the election and the senate is democrat or republican, then he goes forward, if not, we should wait until february. >> there aren't 100 mition people preexisting conditions, as far as the say is concerned, the people already have their say. they -- okay. justice ginsburg said very powerfully and very strongly at some .10 years ago or so she said a president and t senate is elected for a period of time but a president is f electr four years, we are not elected for three years, i am not elected for three years, so w have the that, we have a president. >> elected to the -- >> during that periodf time, during that period of time, we have an opening. i am not elected for three years. i am elected for four years. and 100 million people -- joe -- million people is totally wrong. i don'ti don't know where you gt number.

the bigger problem that you have extinguish 180 million people with their private healthcare that they are very happy with. >> that is simply t true. >> you said -- you are going to socialist -- >> getlemen, we are no into oping discussion. >> open discussion, go ahead, vice president. >> number one, knhe ws that what i proposed. what i proposed is that we expand obamacare and we increase it. we do not wipany -- and one of the big debates we had with 23y oflleagues trying to win the nomination that i won were tsaying that biden wanteo allow people to have private insurance still. they can. they do. they will under my proposal. >> that's not what you aid it is not what your party has said. your party doe't say. your party wants to goocialist medicine. >> the party is me. right now i am the -- >> and they are going to minate you,. >> i am the democratic party right now. the platform of the democratic party iswhat i, in fact approve

of, what i approved of.w re is the al. the deal is that it is going to wipe out preexisting conditions. and by the way, 200 million, 200,000 people that have died on his watch, how many of those have survived? well, the are 7 million people that contracted covid. what does it mean for them goinf forwarou strike down the affordable care act? >> joe, you have had 308,000 military people dying because you couldn't provide them proper healthcare in the miitary. so don't tell me about -- >> i am happy to talk. >> and if you were here -- 200 it would be 2 millio peoe, because you were very late on the draw. you didn't want me to ban china withs heavily infected. you didn't want me to ban -- >> gentlemen -- >> yould would wave been months later, joe, months later. you are talking about 2 million ople. >> as moderator we are going to talk about covid in the next segment but let men't but go ahead. >> let me finish. the president is also posed to

roe v. ways wade, that's on the ballot as well in the crt, in the court. so that is also at stake right now. so the -lection is all >> you don't know it is on the ballot. >> why is it on the ballot? >> it is on the ballot in the court. >> i don't think so. >> there is nothing happening there.al >> do-- >> you don't know her view on roe v. wade. you don't know her vi >> all right. arrest talk -- we have got aot unpack here gentlemen and a lot of time. on healthcare, and then we will come backv.to rowade. mr. president, the property wils hear aa week after the election in which the trump administration along with 18 state attorneys general are seeking to ov >> that's right. >> -- obamacare, to end obamacare, i don't have you spent -- >> bec gse i want e food healthcare. >> if i may ask my question, sir. >> good >> over the last four years, you have promised to repeal and

replace obamacare, but you have never in these four years come up with a plan, a cprehensive plan. >> yes, i have. >> to replace obamacare. >> of course i have. >> well -- >> the individual mandate. >> i will give you an opportunity -- >> i gohe rid of individual mandate which is -- >> that is absolutely a big ting. that was theoston part of obamacare. >> sir -- >> let me ask my question. i will ask joe.o. >> >> the individual man at a time fas the most popular aspect o obamacare, i got rid of it and -- >> i am the moderator ofld thisnd i wike you to let me ask my with he and then you can answer. >> go ead. in the course of these four years have nev come up with a comprehensive plan to replace obamacare and just this last thursday you signed a largely symbolic ecutive order to protect people with preexisting conditions five days bthis debate. so my question, sir, is, what is hcare plan?ea >> all right.

well, first of all i guess i am debating you not him, but that's okay. i am not surprised. let me just tell you manager. there is nothing symbolic.i cutting drug prices. i am going with favored nations which no president has the courage to do because you are ae going against big farm marks drug pces will be coming down 80 or 90 yorcent. could have done it during your 47 year period in government but you didn't do it nobody has done it. so we are cutting healthcare. all of the things that we have done -- >> i will give you an example, insuli it was desoying families, destroying people because i am getting it for sop ch is like water, you want to know the truth, so cheap. take a look at all of the drugs that, what we are doi, prescription drug prices we are going to allow our governors now go to other countries to buy drugs because when in fact they paid just a tiny fraction. >> this is -- >> this. >> you will be happy i am about to pick up on one of your points to ask the vice president, which is, he pnts out that you would obamacare.d a pblic option to

>> yes. >> and the argument that he makes, and other republicans end private insur is going to >> it is not -- >> i would like to ask the question -- >> by the way. >> and end private insurance and eate a government takeover of healthcare. >> it does not. it is only for those peple who are so poor they qualify for medicaid. they can getre that e in most states except governors who want to deny people who are poor medicaid. anyone who qualifies for medicare, excuse me, medicaid would automatically be enrolled in the public option. the vast majority of t american people would still not be in that option. number one. >> joe, you agreed with bernie sanders who is far left on the manifesto we call it. to socialize medaricine. you saying you didn't agree? >> the fact of the matter is, i beat bernie sanders, not. >> not by much. >> i beat him by a hll of a lot. >> i am here standing facing >> two days later you would have

lost any primary. >> here is thel, i got very lucky tonight as well, and tonight i am going to make sure, because. >> with what? >> here is the deal. here is the deal.fa th is that everything he is saying so far is simply a lie. i not here to call out his lies. everybody knows she a liar. >> but you agree -- >> joe, you the liar. >> i want to makre sue. >> last a in your class, not first in your class. >> goll, i want to make sure. >> mr. president can you let him finish, sir? >> he doesn't know hoto do that. >> the wrong guy, the wrongon night at the wtime. >> listen you agreed with bernie sanders. >> the whole idea. >> there is no manifesto, number one. >> please let him speak, mr. presiden >> he just lost the left. >> you just lost the left. you agreed with bernie sander on a plan -- >> -- what this clown is doing -- >> socialized m icine. . president -- >> i tell you what, he is not

r any help for people needing healthcare. >> who isn't? bernie? >> because he, in fact, already has cost 10 million people their healthcare that they had fromp their eyers because of his recession. number one. number 2. there are 20 million people getting healthcare through obamacar take it away.ants to he won't -- ever look you in the eye and sathat's what he nts to do, is take it away. >> i want to give them bet healthcare at a much lower price. that. doesn't know how to do fixed it. >> he has never done a single thing. >> but pobably -- >> you are both speaking at the same time. let the president, go ahead, sir. >> obamacare is no good. we made it better and i had a choice to make very early on. we took away th individual mandate. we guaranteed preexisting conditions, but took away the individual man at a ime. >> thiss the way it is. and that destroyed -- they shouldn't even call it obamacare. they had a choice to make.

do i let m ipeople runt really well or badly in if i run it badly they wil prbablblame him and blame me but more importantly i want to help you said you have to run it so well and i just had a meeting with them. matter how well yonem is no obamacare, it is a disaster. it is too intensive. premiums are too high. >> we do want to get rid of it -- >> i have to give you roughly equatime. please let the vice president talk. >> good. >> he has no plan for healthcare healthcare. >> of course we do. >> he sends out wishful thinking. he has executive orders that have to pow h. hesn't lowered drug costs for anybody. he has been proposing the healthcare plan since he got elected. has none. like almost everything else he talks about. he does not hava plan. he doesn't have a plan. and the fact is, this mant doesn't know w is talking about. >> all right. i have one final question foru,

r. vice president. if sat republics -- we we talking originally about the supreme court here. if senate republicans go ahead and confirm justice barrett, here has been talk about ending the filibusteror even packing the court, adding to the nine justices ther you call this a distraction by the president but in fact it wasn't brought upby the president, it was brought up by some of your democratic colleagues da in the congress so my question to you, is you have refused in the past a to talk a about i are you willing to tell the american people tonight whether or not you will support either ending the filibuster or packing the court. >> whatever position i take on that, that will become the issue, the issue is the american people should speak. you should go out and vote. you are voting now. vote and let your senators know how strongly you feel. vote now. >> you are going to pac court? >> make sure you let people know. question.s want to ants the i won't answer the question. >> because the question is --

the question is -- the radical left- will you shut , man. >> who is on your list, joe? >> gentlemen, i te have ended this -- >> pack the court -- >> we are notng goiive a list. >> we have ened this segment and move on to the second segment. >> that was really productive segment, wasn't it? >> keep yapping, man. the people understand, joe. >> 47 years you have don nothing. they understand. >> all right. the sec subject is covid-19 which is an awfully serious subject, so let's try to be serious about it. we have had more thn 7 million cases of coronavirus in the united states and more than 200,000 people have died. even ter we produced a vaccine, experts say that it could be months or evn years before we come back to anything approaching normal. my question for both of you is, based on what you have sad and done so far and what you have

said you would do starting in 2021, why should the american peop trust you more than yourl opponent to deth this public health crisis going question goes to you first, sir, two minutes uninterrupted. >> good luck. >> 200,000 dead. as you said, over 7 million infected in thenited states. we, in fact, have five percent,r fournt of the world's population, 20 percent of the deaths. 40,000 people a day are contracting covid, addition that, about between 750 and 1,000 people a day are dying. when he was presented with thath numb said it is what it is. it is what it is because y are who you are. the prent has no plan. he hasn't laid out anything. he knew all the back in was.uary how serious this crisis ew it was a deadly disease.

what did he do? i on tape as acknowledging he knew it. he scared he didn't tell us or give people a warning of it because he didn't want to panic the american people. you don't panic, he panicked. in add tition at, what did he do? he went in and -- we were insiing that the chinese, the people we had on the ground in china should be able to go wuhan and determine for themselves how dangerous this was. he did not even ask xi jinping to do that, he told us what great job xi jinping was doing and said we owe him a debt of gratitude for being so transparent with us, andhehat dio then? he then did nothing -- he waited and ited and waited and still doesn't have a plan. >> wrong. >> sir, two minutes. >> laid out exactly what we should be doing and i laid out again iny what we should be doing. we should be providing all of the protecte gear possible. we should be providing the money, the -- in order to be able to go out and get peoheple th they need to keep their businesses open, open schools,

mothat cost as lot oney. you should get out of your bunker and get out of the sand trap anget in yo golf course and go on the oval office and bring together the democrats republicans and fund what needs to be done now to savvee li so if we would have listened. >> you have two minutes, sir.e ifuld we would have listened tou the country would have been left wide open, millions of people would have died, not 200,000 and one person is too much, it is ehina's fault, it should never have happened, stopped it from going in but it was china's fault. and by the way when you talk about numbers, you don't know how many people died in china. you don't know how many people russia. you don't know how many people died in india, they don't exactly give you a straight unt just so you uerstand. but if you look at what we have done, i closed it and youaid he is company phobic and a raysist racist and company >> it is his two minutes. >> you didn't think we should close our country because you thought it was terrible, you wouldn't have closed it for 0 another two months. by my doing it earfaly, int,

dr. fauci said president trump savethousands of les. many of you democrat governors saidpresident trump dia phenomenal job, we worked with the governors, oh, really go take a look. your governors saved i did a phenomenal job, most of them said that. in fact, people that wold not be necessarily on my side said that. presidt trump did a phenomenal job. we did. we got the gowns, we got thema sks, we the ventilators, you wouldn't have made ventilators and thousand we are weeks awm a vaccine, we fewer people are when theyeady, get sick, far fewer people are dying, we have done great job, the only thing i haven't done aa good j that's because of the fake news. no matter what you say to them they give you bad press on it, it is just fake news, they give you good press, they give me ba press becaat's the way it is, unfortunately, but let me just tell you something, i don't care, i have used to it but i tell you joe you could never have tone the j wdid, you don't it have in your blood, you couldn't do it, joe. >> i know how to do th, e jobi

know how to get the job done. >> you didn't do very well on swine flu, h1n1 you were a disaster cyour ownef of staff said you were a disaster. >> your honor thousand people died not 200,000. >> >> >> you made a point let him answer it. >> and there is no one, no, we didn't shut down the economy, shutis his economy, he down, the reason it shut down is because, look, you folks at home, how many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died of covid? w manyinf you wer situation where you lost your speak to them andd a surest even holding a phone up so you could, >> you would have far more people, far more people. >> and you would have bn months late. you were months late, joe. >> your own cdc director says we could lose as many as another 200,000 people between thousand and thend of the career. and he held him and said if we just wear aask can save half those numbers. just the masks.he and byay, in terms of the

whole notion of a vaccine, i root for a vaccine but i don't atust him at all nor do you, i know you don't e trust is the scientists,. & >> johnsohnson, pfizer. >> gentlemen, gentlemen, let me move on to questions ahe future, because you both have touched on one of the, two of the questions i am going to askh focusing ofuture for r esident trump, you have repeatedly eitontradicted or been at odds with some of your government's own top eientist it is week bef last, the head of the center for disease control dr. redfield said it would be summer before the vaccine would would become generally available to the public. you said that he was confused and mis ttakese were your two words. >> yes. but dr. -- the head of ur operation warp speed has said exacy the same thing. are they both wrong. >> well i hapoken to the companies and we can have it a lot sooner, it is a very potical thing, because people like this would rather make it

political than save es. >> oh, god. >> it is a very political thing i have spoken toan pfizer d spoken to all of the people we have to speak to, modern naah, johnson & johnson and others. they can go fasthan that by a lot. it has become very political n'because the left or i i don'tw if if we call hem left -- >> head or yoperation warp speed dr. -- >> i agree with both of them and he didn't say that. he said it could be there or it could be much sooner. i had in my ffice. he talked about summer, sir, before it is generally available. he said it is a possie that we will have the aswer before november 1st. it could also be after that.il >> generally ale. >> well, we are going to deliver it right away. with have the military all set l upistically and all set up. we have our military that delivers soldiers and they can do 200,000 a day. they are going to be -- >> this is he same man that told you by easter this would be by the warm weather it would be gond miraculous like a miracle ldd by the way maybe he cou

inject some bleach in your arm and take care of it. >> that was being sarcastic and you know that, that was said sarcastic. >> here is the deal this man is talking about a vaccine, wherever serious, every seriousg company is talabout maybe having a vaccine done by the end of the year. but the distribution of that vaccine will hot occur until some time beginning o the middnext year to get it out. if we get the vaccine. and praise god god we will. >> vice president, way tonight pick up on this question, though, you say the public can trust the scientists but they can't tr fact you said that again tonight. goes further, sthe public harris health experts quote will bezz d, will be suppressed. given the fact that polls already sho thapeople are concerned about the vaccine and are reluctant to take it are you and your runng mate,nator harris contributing to that fear? >> no more than the question you you pointed out he puts

pressure, and disagrees with his n scientists, but you are ruying -- senator harris is saying you can't the scientists. >> no, no, you can trust the scientists, she didn't say that. he is said the public health experts, quote will be muzzled, will bsuppressed. >> well, that's what he is going to try to do, but there are millions of scientists, thousands of scientists out there like here at s great hospital that don't work for oem. their job't deend on him. that's not -- they are the people -- and by the way. >> i spoke to the scientistsch that are irge, they will have the vaccine very soon. >> let him fin>>h. o you believe for a moment what he is telling you in light of all of the lies he has told you about the whole issue idlating to cov he still hasn't even acknowledged that he knew thisha waening, few how dangerous it was going to be back in february, and he didn't even tell oou, he n record assaying it. he panicked or just looked at the stock market one of the two because guess what a lot of

people tie d, and a lot morare going to die unless he gets a >> mr. preside.lot quier. >> did you use the, d you use the wo smart you say you went to delaware state but you forgot the name of your college you didn't go to delawa state, you graduated either the lowest or almost the low nest your class,r don't se the word smart with me, don't ever use that word. >> oh give me a break. >> because you kw what? there is nothing smart about you, joe, 47 years you have done >> let's have this debate. >> let me tell you something slow, if you would have had the charge of what i was put through, i had had to close ther test economy in the history of our country and by the way now it is being built again. >> we will go to tey the next segment. >> it is going up fast. >> when it comes to how the virus has been handled so par, the two of you have taken veryff ent approaches and this is going to affect how the virus is handled going forward by whichever of you ends up beening the next president. want to quickly go through several of those.

reopenings. vice president biden, you have been much more reluctant than president trump about reopening the economy and schools. why, sir? >> because he doesn't have a plan. if i were running i knoplw what th s you have got to provide these businesses the ability to have the mo be able to reopen with the ppe as well as with the sanitatiothey need. you have tode pro-- >> nancy pelosi. >> just hush for a moment. >> tell it to pelosi and crying? chuck. >> they have a plan, he won't evenmeet with them. the republicans won't meet with the senate. and he sits -- he sits in his lf course nd i mean, literally think about it. >> you probably play more than i >> what about the question of reopening and the packet -- >> well he wants to shut dn this country. >> oh -- >> and i want to keep it open and -- >> -- shut it down. >> wait a joe, let me shut you do, joe just for 0 aecond. he wants to shut down the

country. we just went through it, we h to because we didn't know anything about the disease thousand we found that elrly people with heart problems and diabetes and different problems are very, verye. vulnera we learned a lot, young children en't, even younger people aren't. we have learned a lot. more people will be hurt byn. continuing -- if you look at pennsylvania, if you look at certain states that have been ut down, they have democrat governors all, one of the reasons they shut down is because they want to it shut down until after the election on november 3rd. >> i will o on to another subject. >> i will move on to another subject. >> i have to respond to that. >> gentlemeni am doing move on to another subject. >> not doing well, that are shut down. >> i wt to respond to that. >> you have begun to increasingly question the effectiveness of masks as a disease preventer and, in fact, recently you have cited the issue of waiters touching their masks and touching plates. are you questioning -- >> no. >> i think masks are okay. you have to understd, i mean i

have a mask right here. i put a mask on, you know, when i think i need it tonight is an example everybody has had a test and you have hadl soistancing and all of the things that you have to, but i wear masks when need, when needed i wear masks. >> le.t me ask >> i don't wear masks like him wherever time you see him he has a mask, he could be speaking 200 feet away and he shows up with the biggest mask i have ever seen. i will say th. >> vice president, biden, go ahead, sir. >> look the way to ope businesses is give them the wherewithal to be able to open. we proded money. >> that was asking you sir about masks. >> well, masks, masks make a big difference, his own head of the cdc said if we just wore havocs between nowdyif everyore masks in social distance between now and van, we would probly safe up to 100,000 lives, it matters. >> and they they have also saide opposite. e.ey also said the oppos >> no serious person said the opposite. >> dr. fauci, dr. fauci said the opposite. >> want to ask you. >> he said very stngly masks

are not good. then he changed his mind and said masks are goo i am okay with masks. i am not fighting masks. >> one last subject, because your different approaches even affected the way you have campaigned. president trump, you are holdina the larglies with crowds packed together, thousands of people. >> outside.ut >>de, yes, sir. >> and vice president biden, you holding much smaller events. >> because nobody will show up. >> >> it is true, nobody shows up to his ralli. >> anyway, why are you holding the big rallies and why are you not, you go first sir. >> because people want to hear what i have to say. a i am presided i have 25, 30,000 people show up at airports we ue aiports. >> are you not worried about -- >> well, so far we have had no problem whatsoever. it is outside that is a big difference, cording to the experts, we do them outside, we have tremends crowds, as you see, i mean, every -- and literally on 24 hours notice and

joe does the circles an has three people some places. >> by the way,. >> one of the last big rallies he had and a reporter came up to him to ask him a question, he said, no, no, no, std back, put on your mask, put on a mask. have you been tested? - i am way- i am way far away from those other people. thati what he said. going to be okay. he is not worried about you, se there breathing on one another. >> we had no meg effects no negative effect, no negative effect and we had 35 -- >> let me finish up i want to move to the next. >> yes, i would, he has been totally irresponsible the way he s handled the social distancing and people wearing masks, basicncouraging them not to. >> then she a pool on this. >> if you could get the crowds you would have done the same thing but you can't, nobody cares -- >> can we nve on, getlemen can we move on to the economy? >> yes. >> the economy is, think it is fair to say recovering faster than expected from the shutdown.

>> much faster. >> in the second quter. the unemployment rate fell to 8.4 percent last month, federal reserve says the hit to growth, which is going to be there, inot going to be nearly as big as they had expected. president ump, you say we are in a v-shaped rcovery. vice president biden, you say it is more of a k shaped. what difference does that mean to the american people in terms of the my, president trump inme this s you go first. >> so we built the greatest economy in history, we closed it down because of the china plague, when the plague came in we closed it down, which was very hard psychologically to do. he didn't think we should close it down and he was wro. and again, 2 million people would would be dead now instead of still 204,000 people is too much, one person i too muc it should never have happened from china. but what happened is, we closed it down and thousand we are reopeninin and we are d record business. we had 10.4 million people in ai four month that we have

put back into the workforce, that's a record the likes ofbo which has ever seen before. and he wants to close town the -- he will shut it down again. he will destroy this country. you know, a lot of people between drugs and alcohol and depression, when you start shutting it down you take a look at what is happening in some of your democrat run stteshere they have these tough shutdowns, and i am telling you it ise becaey don't want to open it, one of them came outlast week, you saw that, w gareng to open up on november 9th, why november ninth? cause it is after the election they think they are hurting us keeping by keeping it closed they are hurting people, people know what to do they can social distance and wash their hands and wear the masks whatever they want but they have to open the states up, when you look at north carolina, when yok at these governors that are under siege, pennsyl and a couple of others, you have got to open these states up, it is not fair.in you are taabout almost like being in prison. and you will be at what is going on with divorce, lok at what is going on with alcoholism and drugs, it is a very, ve sad

thing. a and he will close town the whole country, this guy will close down the whole courynd destroy our country. our country is coming back incredibly well, setting records as we don't need mebody to come in and say, let's shut it down. >>ll right. your two minutes sir, we are 0 now moving to you. as i said, posing the question, the president says it is a v-shaped recove, you say it is a k shaped, recovery, what is the difference in. >> the difrence is, millionaires and billionaires like him in the middle of a covid crisis have done very well. another billionaires have mad another $300 billion because of his pro any fat tax pposal and he only focuses on the market. but you folks at homoe, you flks living in scranton and clay month and all of the small towns and working cls towns 0 in america, how well are you doing? this guy paid a total of $750. >> it is wrong. >> sir, it is his -- i understand you have agreed to the two-mhiute so please let m

have it. >> do i get my time back. the fact is that he is, in fact, worked on this in a way he is going to be the first president of t united states to leave office having fewer jobs in his administration than when he became president. fewer jobs thawhen he became president, first one in american history. secondly the people who have st their jobs are those people who have been on the front lines. those people who have been those peopleives who have been out there dying, people have been puttingse thes in the way to make sure that we could all try to make it. and the idea tt he is insisting that we go forward and en when you have almost half the states in america with a signicant increase in covid deaths and covid cases in the united states of america. and hwant to open it up more. why does he want to open it up? why doesn't he take care of the american -- he can't fix to the economy until you fix the covid crisis. and he has no intention of doing a anything about making it better for you all at home in

terms of your health ad your safety. schools, why aren't schools en? because it costs a lot of money to open them safely. you know, they were going give his adnistration was going to give the teachers in and school, teachers and students masks they decide nod because it is not a national energy, not a national emergency, they have done nothing to help small businesses, nothing, they are closing, one in sixow gone. he ought to get on the job and take care of the neds of the safely.n people so we can't open ll right your time is up, sir, we will get. >> boy liewld going pond to that. m>> you both has tutes, sir. >> excuse they, he made a statement. >> and so did you. >> people want their schools, no, people want their school. op they don't want to be shut down, they don't want their state shut restaurants.ant their i look at new york, it is so sad what is happening a in new york and it is almost like a ghost wn and i am not sure it can ever recover what they have done this new york. people want their plces open. they want to get bad to their lives. >> they will be careful and they

want the schools open. >> i am the one that bughtb back fol. >> by the way i brought back big 10 football, it was me and i am very happy to do it, and -- > all right. he people of ohio are very proud of me -- >> gentmen we are going get to your economic plans going forward in a moment, but first mr. president, as crowell know, there is a new report that in 2016 the year you were elected year as president that you paid $750 a year in federal iome tax, each of each of those year. i knowlohat you pay a of other taxes, but i am asking you true that you paid $750 init federal ince taxes each of those two years? >> i paid millions of dollars in taxes, millions of dollars of income tax, and let me just tell you, there was a story in one of the papers -- >> show us your tax return. >> i paid $38,000,000.01 year. i paid 27 million. >> show us your tax returns.

>> i went -- you will see soon as it is finished. you will see it. you know, what you ought to do is two to the board of elections, there is 118 page or so report that says everything i have, every bank i have, i am tota totally underaround because the assets are extremely good and we have -- i built ao great cmpany. >> i asked you a specific question which is -- i understand paul of that. i understand all of that. >> no, r mr. president. >> go ahead. ho i am asking you a question. will you tell usmuch you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017. >> millions of dollars. >> you paid millions of. dollar >> millions of dollarss. >> millions of dollars panned you will get to see it. >> and you will get to see it >> when? >> but let me tell you. >> chris, let me tell you manager, that it was the tax laws, i don't nt to pay tax, before i came here, i was a private developer, was a private businessperson, like every other private person, unless they are stud, they go through the laws and that's what it is. he passed a tax bilhat gave

us all of these privileges forde eciation, and for tax credits. we built a building and we get tax edits like theotel on pennsylvania avenue you get a massive, which, by the way was given to me by the barack obama administration, if you believe that. now the man got fired right after that happened. >> vice president you want to respond? >> i do want to respond. twill be,ax code that made him, put him in a position th he pays less tax than a school teacher makesn the money a school teacher makes is because of him taking, he says she mart because he can take advantage of the tax code, and he does take advantage of the tax code, that's why i am going to eliminate the trump tax cuts and we are going to, i am doing iminate those tax cuts. >> okay. >> and make sure we invest in the people who in fact need th help. people out there need help. >> why didn't you do it ov the last 25 years? because -- why didn't you do it -- >> becaude you weren't pre screwing things up, you were a senator. >> you are the worst president

america has ever had, come on. >> let me just tell you i joe have done more in 47 months, i have done more thanou have done in 47 years, joe. we have done things that you never even thought of doing, including fbiing the broken military that you gave me. by taking care of your vets. >> mr. president we are talking about the economic economy i would like to ask you about your plans going forward, because, mr. vice president, your economic plan, if you were to be elected president focuses a lot on big government, big tabs, big spending i want to focus first on the taxes. you propod more than $4 billion over a decade of new taxes on individuals making more than $400,000 , 4 trillion, and on corporations, president trump says that that kind of an increase in taxes is going to hurt the economy as it is ju ost coming oa recession. >> well, just take a look at .hat is the analysis done by wall street fir it points out that my economic

planould create 7 million more jobs than his in four years, number one. and nuber 2, it would create an additional $1 trillion in grck th, because it would be about buying american, that we t ha-- we are going to make this federal government spend $600 billion a year on everything from shins to stel to buildings and the like. and under my proposal, we are going to make sure that every penny of that has to be made by a company -- >> i am talking about taxes, not spendiy,. >> by the am going to eliminate significant apts of tax, and makthe corporate tax 28 percent, it shouldn't be 21 percent. u have 19 companies -- 91 companies, federal -- i mean, fortune 500 who don't pay single penny in tax making billions of dollars. >> why didn't you do it before en you were vice president? >> because you, in fact, passed that, thatas your tax proposal. >> i got it done and you know what happened our economy boomed like it has nev boomed before.

>> mr. president, let me pick up on that. oou would continue your free market approach,er taxes, more deregulation, correct. >> not lower tax for the american people. >> let me --n >> butbarack obama's, you talk about the economy based uponning it turns out that in obama's final three years as created in, a million and a half more jobs than in the first threyears of your predency. >> they had the slowest recovery since any economic recovery since 1929, itas the slowest recovery, also, they took over something that was down here, all you had to do is turn on the lights and you pick up a lot, but they had the slowest economic recovery sips 29, let me tell you about t stock market, when the stock market goes up, it alsmo ns 4-ks, if you got in, if you have a, ie you beresident with your ideas you want to terminate my will lose half of the companies that have poured in here will leave and plenty of the

they will leave for othery here, countries. they will leave and you will have a depression the likes o which you have never seen. >> look.re >> mr. vicedent. >> we inherited the worstra recessioer than a depression in history, we we wee able to bring it back andjo created ths you are talking about, we handed him a based uponning economy.t. he blew it wasn't. >> blew it? >> it wasn't booming it was the weakest rec -overy sin >> is it fair to say he blew it when, in fact -- when there was record low employment before covid? but because what he did, even before covid, manufacturing went in theole, manufacturing went in the hole. >> excuse me. >> number 2. >> chris. they said it would take -- >> to -- >> chris, chris, they said it would take a miracle to bringac back manring. i brought back 700,000 jobs. they brought back nothiup. they gavn manufacturing. with. >> i am the guy that brugo

back the automobile industry. >> let him answer. >> we brought back, i was askedb to brik chrysler and general motors and brought them back here right in the state of ohio and michigan, he blew it, they are bonn, he ble ait,nd,, in fact, they are gone. >> ohio had the best year it ever had last year. michigan had the best year they ever had. >> that is not true. >> many car opinione in from germany, and the went to michigan and went to gh row. >> and they didn't come under you. >> mr. vice president, go ahead. >> and so you take a look at what he has actually done, he has done very little, his trade deals are the same way, he talks about these great trade deals, you know, he talks about the art of the deecialtion china has perfected the art of the steal, we have a higher deficit with china now than we did bore, we have the highest trade deficit -- >> cill eat your lunch. china ate your lunch, joe. ind no wonder your son goes and he takes out -- he takes out billions of dolrs, he takes out billions of dollars to manage, he makes millions of dollars and also. >> simply not true. >> it not --

>> just out of curiosity, the mayor of moscow's wife gave your son three and a half million dollars. >> that's not true even what did he do to at the deserve it? what did he do with burisma to deserve on-- million dollars. >> none of that is true. >> oh, really, he didn't get -- million. >> mr. president, please. >> totally discredit, totally discredit. >> by the way. >> wait at that he didn't get nine i cando have million ars, joe. >> he got three and a half million dollars. >> that sat not true. >> oh, really? >> it is an open discussion. please. >> it is a fact. >> you have raised an issue let him answer. >> it is totally discredited. >> it was 183,000 a month with no experience in energy? >> my son did nothing wrong at burisma. >> and >> mr. president, let him answer even he doesn't want to let me answer bause he knows i have the truth. and his position has been total think, thoroughly discredited. >> by who? >> by the media? >> well, by the media, by our

allies, be at is wor bank, by -- >> by everyone. has discredited, as a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, even the people whoestified under oath, so let me, under oath -- >> go ahead, i am listening to you. he got three and a half million from moscow. >> he testified under oath in his administration said i did my job and i did it very well. >> oh, we >> i am honored. >> i don't know who they are. >> i will five you the list of the peoe who -- >> go ahead, sir. you have already fired most of them because they dia good job. >> some people do go a good job. >> wait a in opportunity you get the time word. >> it is hard to get any word in with this clowned. let me just say, no, no, mr. president. >> that is simply. >> why did he deserve three andm a halion from moscow? >> look here is the deal, we want to talk about families and ethics, i don't want to do that, i mean, his family we uld tal about all night, his family is already. >> my family -- >> my family made a fortune by

coming -- >> gave it up to work with >> every single f them lost -- >> my family or his family, ita is about yourly the american people. >> three and a half million dollars. >> that's not ue. he dosn't want to talk about what you need, you, the hearn people, it is about cow, that is what we are lking about. >> all right. that's the end of th segment. we are moving on. >> a >> can i be honest, it is very important question. >> no. >> i stood up. >> he stood up. >> the answer to the question is no. >> ukraine -- >> sir. >> with a billion dollars. you though what. >> you are doing it. gentlemen, i hate to raise myw voice bu should by different than the two of you so here is the deal. >> d a gooint. >> we have six segments we have ended that segment. ewe are going to go to text segment. in that segment, we are going to have two uninterrupted moments in those two uninterrupted

mr. presidents you can say anything you want, i am going to ask a question abift race bu you want to answer about something else, go ahead. but i think that country would be better served if we allowed both people tspeak with fewer interruptions. i am appealing to you, sir to dt >> and him too. >> well, frankly you have been doing more interrupting. >> that's all right but he does plenty. >> well, less tha sir. >> plenty. >> less than you have. >> please connu on. the issue of race. vice president biden you say that president trump's response to the violence in charlottesville three years ago when he talked about very fine people on both sis was what directly led you to launch this run for president. >> oh, yeah, sure. >> mr. president, i don't have you often said you believe you have done more for black americans than anynt presi with e possible exception of abraham lincoln. >> true. my question for the two of you is why should voters trust you rather than your opponent to

deal with the race issues acing this country over the next four years, vice president biden you go first. >> it isu about eqy and equality. it is about decency. it is about the constitution. and we have never walked aay from trying to -- acquire equitr for ne, equality for the whole america. but we have never accomplished it. we have never walked away from it, like he has done. it is true the reainn i go the race is most people close your eyes remember what those l peopk like coming out of the field carrying torches an their veins bulging and just spewing anti-semitic bile and accompanieby the ku klux klan a young woman got killed and he said there were very fine people both sides. no president has ever said that anything lik that. >> and let him finish, sir.i >> second poinuld make is that when floyd w killed, whenmr floyd was killed, there was a peaceful protest in front of the white house, what did he do?

he came out of his bunker and had the military the use tear gas on them so he could walk across to a church d hold up a bible, and then what happened? after that? the bishop of hat very church said that it was a disgrace. the general who was with him said he all he want to do is divide peoe not unite pee at all. this is a president who has used everything as a dog while to try to generate racist hatred, racist dision. this is a man who, in fact, yu americans, one in 1,000 african americans has been killed ronavirusf the co and if he does don't something quickly by the end of the year, onn 500 will have been killed. one in 500 african americans. this man, this man is to the savior of african americans? this man cares at all? this man has done virtually nothing. look, the fact is that youve to look at what he is talks about, you have to look at what

did a what he did has beenhe disastrous for african-american hunt. >> president trump you two-minute, why should americans trust you over your opponent to cral with race. >> i did ime bill, 1994, where you call them super predators, african americans, per predators, and they have never forgotten it, they have never forgotten it. >> i never said tha it. is his two minutes. >> they call you a super predator and i am letting people t of jail now that you have population minute, you have treated the black minute about as bad as aybody in this country. you did the 19 -- and that's why if you look at the pls, i am doing better than any republican has done in a long type because they saw what you did. u called them super predators and you have called them worst than that because you look ba y r testimony over the years you have called them a lot worst than that, as far as the churchn is cerned, and as far as the generals are concerned, we just got the suprt of 200, 250

military leaders and generals, total support, law enforcement, almost every law enforcement group in the united states, i, have florihave texas, i have high owe, i have every -- excuse me, portland, the sherifu just camtoday and he said i support president trump. wrong yohave any law enforcement, you can't even say the word law enforcement because if you say thosewords you are going to lose all of your rashida are a radical left supporters and why aren't you saying those words, joe? why hen't you say words law enforcement? because you know what? if they called us in portland ou would puthat ire in half an hour, but they won't do it because they are run by radical left democrats, if you look at think, if you look at ceanyp you want to look, seattle, they heard we were coming in they followg d they put up their hands and we got back seattle, minneapolis, we got it back, joe, because we believe ir w and orut you don't. the top 10 cities in just about the top 40 cities are run by democrats and in ny cas

radical left and they have got you wrapped around their finger, joe, to a point where you don't want to say anything about law and order. and i will tell you what, the people of this country want and demand law and order and you art afraeven say it. >> all right. i want to return to the question of race.si vice pnt biden, after the grand jury and the breonnae taylor ccided not to charge a any of the police, with question, quote, whether justice could be equally applied in america. do you believe that there is a greabut unequal system of justice for blacks in this country? >> yes, there is. there is systemic injustice in this country, and education, and work, and in law enforcement, and the way it is enforced -- the vast majority of police men and women they risk their lives every day to take care of and when they occur, when theyes find them they have to be sorted out. they have to be hel

accountable. they have to be held accountable. and what i am going to do as president of the unil d states is cogether an entire group of people at the white houevse, ything from the civil rights groups to the police officers, the police chiefs and we are going work this o we are going to work this out, so we changed the way this which we have more trans fairness, transparency and when these things happen, these cops aren't happy to see wt happened to george floyd. these cops aren't happy to see h whppened to breonna taylor, most don't like it but we have to have a system where people are held accountable when, and by the way, violence and response is ever appropriate, never applropriate, peace protest is, violence is never appropriate. >> all right. >> what is peaful protest? when they run through the middle of the town and burn down your stores and kill people all over >> that is not peaceful. >> -- >> you say it is. >> president tru i would like to continue with the issue of race, i promised we are going to get to the issue of law anden order in a m >> please. >> this month yourti

administ directed federal agencies to end racial sensitivity training that addresses white privilege or critical racee ory. why did you decide to do that to ved racial sensitivity training and do you belhat there is systemic racism in this country, sir? >> i ended it because it is racist. i ended it because a lot of people were complaining that ey were asked to do things that were absolutely insane, that it was a radical revolution that was taking place in our military, in our schools, all over the place, and you know it and so does everybody ee and -- >> talking about racialy sensitivaining, sir, if you were a certain person you had no status in life, it was sort of a reversal and if you look at the people, we were paying people huofdred thousands of dollars to teach very bad ideas and frankly very stick ideas, and really they were teaching people to hate our

country. and i am not goingo do that. i am 0 not going to allow that to happen. we have to go back to the core values of this country. they were teaching people that our country is ap horriblce, it is a racist place, and they were teaching peoplto hate country. and i am not going to allow that to happen. >> vice president biden. >> nobody doing that. >> he is racist. >> here is the deal. >> i know a lot mobout it. >> let him finish. >> the tact is that there is racial insensitivity, people have to be made aware of what other peple feel like, what insults them, what is tdemeanig em. it is important to people know. they don't want to -- many people don't want to hurt other people's feelings, but it is -- it makes a big difference. it makes a gigantic difference in the way a child is able to go grow up and have a nse of self-esteem, the as little bit like how this guy and his friends look down on so opinion ople, and will be down their nose on people like irish catholics like me who gw up in scranton and look down on people

who don't have money they look town on people who f ea different faith, they look down on people who are a different lor. in fat, we are all americans, the only way we are going to bring in country together is bring everybody together, there it together, wan take this on do and we can defeat racism. >> president trump, sir -- during the barack obama, biden administration, there was tremendous division, there was hatred, you look at fguson, you look at, you go to many places, lock at oakland, look what happened in oakland, look what happened in baltimore, look what happened frankly it was more violent than what i am even saying now. >> oh, my lord. >> but the reason is that the democrats that have run. >> that is absolutely ridiculous. >> tonight want to talk like you about law and order. >> violentrime - >> you in favor of law and order. >> i am in favor of lawyou -- >> law and order. >> i asked in him a question. >> -- >> law and order with justice where peopleet treated fairly.

and the fact of the matter is, violent crime went wn 17 percent, 15 percent in our administration. >> all right. >> it has gone up on his wat. >> went down more on ours. >> mr. president, you are going to -- >> mr. president,. >> very record -- >> mr. president you are going to be happybecause we are now going to talk about law and/or. >> we had trouble with democric run advertise. >> that's exactly my question. there has been a dramatic increase in homicides ths erica this summer, particularly and you often blame that on democratic mayors and dependent governors, but in fact there have been equivalent spikes in republican led cities li tulsa and fort worth, so the question is thias reall party issue? >> i think it is a party issue. you can bring in a couple of examples, but if you look at chicago, what is going on in chicago, where 53 people were hot and eight died, shot, if you look at new york, where it is going up like nobody has ever seen anything. the numbers are going up 100,

150, 200 pernt, crime. >> republican cities. >> it is crazy what is going on and he doesn't want to say lawe and order beca can't because he will lose his radical left supporters and once he does at it is over with. but he ever got to run this country, and they ran it the wau he want to run it we would have suburbs would be gone, by the way, our suburbs would bean gone you wld see problems likeou -- >> he wouldn't ow a suburb unless he took a wrong turn. >> i know suburbs so much beaier. >> i wasd in the suburbs. this is not 1950. all of these dog whistles and racism don't work anymore. integrated there any people today driving their kids to soccer praice and/or to anblack white and hispanic in the same car as there have been any time in the past. what really is ar theat to the suburbs and their safety is his failure to deal with cov, third ther guying the suburbs, his failure to deal with they environment, te beinged inned, they are being burned out because his refusal to do anything. that is why the suburbs are in

trouble. >> i do want to talk about this issue of law and order, though, and in the joint recommendation that came from the biden bernie sanders task force, you talked about, quote, reimagining policing. first of all, what does reimagining policing mean and do you support -- if i might finish the question. at does reimagining police mean and do you support the blacklives matter call for community control of policing? >> look, what i support is the itpolice having the opportto deal with the problems they face. and am totally opposed to defunding the police officers. police.of fact, police, loc the only one defunding in his budget calls for a $400 million cut in local law enforcement assistance. they need more assistance. they need when they sh up f a 9/11 call to have someone with them as a psychologist or psychiatrist to keep them from having to use force and be able to talk people down.

we have to havety commu policing like we had before where the officers get to hoe the people in themu comties. that is when crime went down. it didn't go up, it wenn.t tow and so we have to be. >> that's not what they are talking about ris, at's not what they are talking. he is talk about defunding the police. >> that is not 0 true. >> he dud hen't any law -- >> he has no law enforcement. >> that's not true. >> look, reallyo do you have? name one group that supports you. name one group th came out and supported you. gohead. >> >> we have time. >> we don't have me to do anything -- >> name one law enforcement group that came out and supported you. >> i am going to take back thede tor's role 0 and i want to get to another subject, which is the issue of protests in many cities that have turned violent, in portland, oregon, especially, we hadt morn 100 straight days of protests which i think u would free you taabout peaceful protests many of those turned into riots, mr. vice

president, wow say that people who commemit crishould be held accountable, the question i have, though, is as the democratic nominee, and earlier tonight you said you are the tet party right nowhave you ever called the democratic mayor of portland or the dependent governor of oregon d said, hey, you have got to stop this, bring in the national guard, doa whatever ites, but you stop the days and months of violence in portland in. >> i don't hold public office i am a former vice president. i have made it clear he i have ma it clear thimy public statements that the violence should be prosecuted. it should be prosecuted. and anyone who commits it. c >> you nevled the people -- the leaders -- excuse me, sir. 0 you have never cled for the leaders in portland and in oregon to -- >> to bring in the national guard and knock off 100 days of riots. they can, in fact, take care of it if he would just stay outw t. >> oh, really?

oh really? >> young man in the middle of the treat they shot him, three days. >> u.s. marshals taking care of busiadss. >> go ahsir. >> and by the way, you know, his own former spokesperson said, you know, riots and chaos and violence help his cause. that is what this is all about. >> i don't know who said that. >> i do. >> who? >> kellyanne conway. >> i don't think she said that. >> he is said that.d >> all right, here is the point. >> the point is that that is what he is, that is why he keepl trying to everything up, he doesn't want to calm things down, instead of going in andpl talking to pand saying, let's get everybody together, figure out how to deal oeth this, whathe do he just pours gasoline on the fire constantly at every single solitary time. >> and to end this button upnt thiseg will give you a minute to answer, sir. you have repeatedly put aside. >> i have to answer his statement. >> you have -- >> you have -- everybody no, you have been talking. >> you made a statement.

>> i am asking you -- >> you know, sir i would -- if you want to switch seats we could do that but. >> i sent in the national guard it would bblover and no pros but they don't want to step the national guard. tedlyu have rep criticized the vice president for nonspecifically calling outt antifa andher left wing extremist groups. >> that's right. >> but are you willi tonight to condemn whiutepremacists and militia groups. >> sure. >> and to say, that they need o stand down and not add to the violence in a number ti these as we saw in kenosha and as we have seen in portland. >> suri am willing to do that. >> i would say almost everythinh i see is frome left wing, not from the right wing. >>ll >> i am g to do anything -- i want to see peace. >> then do it, sir. >> do it, say. >> you want to call the wm --at do you want to call them, give me a name. >> white supremacistr >> andoud bos. stand by, but uh but i will tell

you what, somebody has got to do something about ana and the left, because this is not a right wing problem. this is a lefwing problem. >> the fbi director said the -- >> white supremacists antifa is an idea, n an oanization. >> oh you have to be kidding. >> that's -- the fbi-- his fbi director said. >> you know what? >> no, no, we ardone, sir. moving on to the next -- >> that is noan idea. in your administration tells you the truth. >> i tell i don't what what. >> you have no idea -- >> antifa is dangerous, radical group. >> we are now moving on to the trump and biden record. >> they will over throw you. >> i am going task a question. >> when the president seeks a second term, it is yes, ma'am a referendum on his record. but vice president biden u like to quote one of your dad's station which is tonight compare me to the al aighty, compare me to the alternative. and in this case, sir, yoare the alternative. 0 looking at both of your records, i am going ask each of

you, why should voters elect you president over your opponenin this segment president trump you to first, two minutes. >> bece ause there is, thhas never been an administration or president who has donthe moren i have done in a period of three and a half years. and thats despite the impeachment hoax, and you saw what happened today witoth hilly cl where it was a whole big con job, but despite going through all of thesengs, we had to fight both flanks and behind me and above, there has never been an admithnistration has done what i have done. the greatest before covid came in the greatest economy in history, lowest unemployment numbers, everything was good, , erything was goind by the way, there was union at this going to hapn. people were calling mefor th first time in years, they were calling and they were saying, it is timmaybe and then what happened? we got hit but now we are building it back up again. the rebuilding of the military, cluding space force and all of the other things. aheixing of va which was a

mess under him, 308,000 people died bcause they didn't have proper healthcare. it was a mess. and we now have got a 91 percent approval rating at the va, ourre vets, we take f our vets, but we have rebuilt our military. the job that we have done, and will tell you something, some people say maybe the most important, by the end of the first term, i will have approximately 300 federal judges and court of appeals judges, 300, and hopefully three great supreme court justice. >> judges, justices, that is a record the likes of which very few peoe, and you know one of the reasons i will have so many judges? because ent obama and him left me 128 judges to fill. when you leave office, you don't leave any judges. that's like you just don't do that. they left 128 openings and if i were a member of his party, because they have a little different philosophy, i would say if u left us 128 openings you can't be a good prsident,

you can't be a good vice president, but i want to thank you, because it gies us almost, it will probably be above that number by the end of this term, three the hundred judges, it is a record. looking at both of your recordst why should voers elect you president as opposed to president trump, you hav minutes uninterrupted. >> under this president we have become weaker, sicker, poorer, poor divided, and more violent. when i was vice president, we rehere addession, i was asked to fix it, i did, we left him a booming economy, and he causc a ession. with regard ting to being weakee fact isg have one head to head with putin andade it clear to him we are not going to takany of his stuff, he is putin's puppy and still refuses to even say anything to putin about the bounty on the heads of american soldiers. his son -- >> got a million dollars dollars. >> and by the way, mr. >> wait a minr.ute, president your campaign agreed to both

sides would get two two-minute answers uninterrupted. your side agreed to it and why don't you observe what your campaign agreed to as a ground rule, okay, sir. >> he never keeps his word. >> no, no. >> i am not -- >> it is a rhetorical question, go ahe, ir. >> request i add 30 seconds? >> go ahead. >> so thirdly, rapport. the billionaires have gotten much more wealthy, by a tune of over three to $400 billion more, just since vid, you and the wole -- you got less, you are in more trble than you were before. in terms of being more violent, when we ffre in oice, there were 15 percent less violence in america than there i today. he is president of the united states. it is on his watch. and with regard to more divided, the nation can't stay diided, we can't be this way. and speakinghef my son, t way you talk about the military, the way you talk about thebeing losers and being -- and just

being suckers, my son was in iraq, he spent a yeaere, he got -- he got bronze star, he got conspicuous service medal and he was not a loser, he was a patriot, and the people who left behind there were heroes. >> really? >> and i resent. are you talking aut hunter. >> i am talking about beau biden den. >> i don know bow. >> i know hunter, hunter got thrown out of the military, he s thrown out, dishonorably discharged. >> that's not true. >> he wasn't dison are a my discharged of he didn't have a job until you became vice president and. >> he made a fortune in ukraine, in china, in moscow. >> and that is simply not true. >> my son. >> a fortune. >> and he didn't have a job. >> my son like a t of ople, like a lot of people we know at home had a drug problem.ak he is overen it, he has fixed it and worked on it an am proud of him. >> why was he given tens of millions of dollars. >> heenasn't givens of millions of dollars.

>> that is totally -- >> we have already. >> totally discredited. >> we have already been through this, i think the american people would ratr hear about more substantial -- >> so do i. >> you know, it is a moderator, sir goaing to make a judgment call here. >> three and a half million dollars from the mayor of moscow. >> that is not true. >> gentlemen. that report is totally discredited. >> mitt romneon that committee said it wasn't worth taxpayers money that report, it was written for politic reasons. >> you know, boy liewld going talk about climate change. >> so would i. >> okay. the forest fires in the west are raining now, they have burned llions of acres, they have displaced hundreds of thousands of people.ta whente officials there blamed the fires on climate change, mr. president y said i don't think the science knows. over your four years you have lled the u.s. out of theparis climate accord, you have rolled back a num barack obama and environmental rechaords, wt do you believe about the science of climate change and what will

you do ithe next four years to confront it? >> i want crystal clean water i want beautiful, clean air. we have now the lowest carbon. if you look at our numbers right now,er doing phenomenally. but i haven't destroyed our businesses, our businesses aren't put out of comission. if you look at the paris accord standpoint.saster from our and epiare actually very happy about what is going on.r because sinesses are doing well, as far as the fires are concerned, you immediate for rest management admiion to everything else. the forest floorare loaded one trees, dead trees that areears old and like tinder and leaves cigarette and the whole or rest burns down. you have got to have forest management.>> what did you belit the science of climate change, sir?l >> i ve that we have to do everything we can to have i immaculate air and water and dov wh else we can that is good. we are planting a billion trees,

a billion tree project and it is very exciting -- >> do you believe that human pollution, gas, greenhouse gas emissions crib to the global warming of the planet? >> i think a lot of things do, extent, s but i also think we an have to do better management of every year i get the call, california is burning, california is burning. t that was cleaned, ihat were , if you had forest management, good forest management, you wouldn't be getting those calls. you know, in europe they live their forest cities, they are called forest cities, they maintain their forests, they mathge r forests. i was with the head of a major country, iis a fort city. he said, sir, we have trees that are r more -- they ignite much easier than california, they shouldn't be that proem. i spoke with the governor about it, i am with the governor but a point you can't every year have hundreds of housands of acres of land just burn to the ground.

that is burning down because of a lack of management. but, sir you believen the science of climate chang why have you rolled back the barack obama clean power plan which limited carbon emissions inower plants? why have you relaxed? >> because it was driving energy surprise prices through the describe.u >> why have relaxed fuel economy standards that are going to create more plowtion from cars- >> not really, because what is happening is the car is much less expensivmuand it is a h safer car, and you are talking about a tiny difference and en what would happen because of the cost of the car, you would haveb at least d and trip it will number of cars purchased. we have the old slugs out there that are 10, 12 years old, if you did that the car would be safer and be much cheapers by $10,000, but take a lot of cars offhe market because people would be able to afford a car. now, so -- and by the way we are ing see how that turns out but a lot of people entry with me. many people, the car hasn got so expensive becse they have computers all over the place for

an are a little bit of gas len. too, i am all electric carscars i have given big incentive for ectric cars but what thve done in california is just crazy. >> vice president biden i would ke you to respond to the president's climate change record but i aso want to ask you about a concern, you proposed $2 trilli in green jobs, you talk about new lips not abolishing but new limbs on fracking, endi the use of fossil fuels to generate electricity by 2035 and zero net emission of greenhouse gases by 2050, the prelosident says a t of these things would tank the economy and costs millif jobs. >> he is absolutely wrong, number one, number if in fact during our administration and was in charge andto bringo, i down the cost of renewable energy to cheaper than or as cheap as coal and gas and oil. nobody is going to build ather

a coal fire plant in america. no one is going to build anothe oil fire pla america. they are going move to renewable energy, nber one.re number 2, weoing make sure that we are able to take the federal flet and turn it into a fleet that is run 0 on the that we can do that and pute 500,000 charging stations and all of the highways that we arei going 0 to be lding this the future, we are going to build an economy that in fact is gointo provide for the ability a of us to take 4 million buildings a make sure that they, in fact, are weather raised in a way that, in fact will emit significantly less gas and oilbe use the heatwill not be going out. there are so many things that we can do now to create thousands and thousand 0 sands of jos. we can get to met zero in terms of energy production by 2035. not only not costingope jobs, creating jobs. creating millions of good paying jobs, not 15 bucks an hour, b

prevailing wage, by having a huh proper that, in fact, is greenrs and the fthing i will do, i will rejoin the paris accord. because with us out lookcord what is happening, it is all falling apart. and talk aboutomeone who has no a relationship to -- withol foreign icy, brazil, the rain arrest of brazil are being torn town. being ripped down. more carbon is absorbed in thrat forest than every bit of carbon that is me emitted in the instead of doing something about that i would be gathering up and make sure we had the countries of the world coming up withbi $2ion and saying here is $20 billion, stop, stop -- tearing town the forest. and if you don't, then you areto goinave significant economic consequences. >> what about the argument that president trump basically says that you have to balance environmental interests and economic interests and he is drawn his line. >> well he hasn't drawn a line,

he still for example makes sure he wants to make sure that oblem.e is not a pr we can -- you can now et more methane without it being a this is a guy who says that you standards for automobiles that exist now. this is a tie who says that the ct is. not true. >> it is all true. and here is dealing. >> we are talking about t een new deal and it is not 2 billion or 20 billion as you said, it is $100 trillion.k >> i am taabout. >> they want to rin/written down buildings and rebuild the building. it is the dumbest most ridiculous, where airplanes are out of busess, where two-car systems are out, where they want to take out the cows too. >> that is not true either, right? >> not true. >> there is -a 100 - >> look. >> that is more money than our country could makn e i100 years if -- >> let me -- >> because i actually -- wait a minute, sii actually have studied your plan, and it includes upgrading 4 million buildings, weather rising

2 million homes over four years building one and a half million enesgy efficient h so the question becomes, the president is say ping, i think sople who support the president would say that sounds like it is going to cost a lot of money and hurt >> what it is goo do is create thousands and millions of jobs, good paying job. >> leh,him finir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >>rsrillion dollars of dol >> it is going to create millions of good paying jobs. and these tax incentives for people to weather-ize which he was to get rid of and me the economic much safer look how much we e dealing now to dealing with the hurricanes, by the way he as an answer for hushes, maybe we should drop a nuclear weapon on th >> i never sid that. >> he did say that. >> you made it up. >> and here is the deal. >> you make a lot. >> we are going to be in a position where we can cate hard, hard good jobs by making sure thevironment is clean, and we all are in better shape. we spend bilons of dollars

now, billions of dollars on floods, hurricanes, rising seas, we are in real trouble. look what happened just in the midwest withhese storms tha come through and wipe out entire sections and county in iowa. they didn't happen before. they are because of global warming. we make up 15 percent of the world's proem. we in fact -- the rest of the world, we have got to get the to come along. that's why we have to get back into, back into the paris accord. >> all right, gentlemen. >> chris, so why deposit he it for 47 years? you were vice president, why didn't you get the world, china se real dirt into the air, russia does, india does, they all do, we ar supposed to be good, and by e y, he made a couple of statements the green new deal is $100 trillion. >> that is not my plan. >> the green the green new teal, that is not my plan. >> you wanto rebuild- >> gentlemen, you made a statement about the military, you said i said something about the military. he and hisriends made it up

and then they went with it, i never said it, that s not true. >> >> he called the military stupid bastards.>> i did not say that. >> youst said upid bastards. >> not true. >> i would never say that. ad play it. >> go ahe >> mr. vice president, answer his fin question. >> the final question is, i can't remember which of all of his ranting -- >> i have a little trouble myself but -- and about the my whether it is going to cost -- >> the economy -- >> i mean the green new deal and the idea of what your environmental -- >> the green new deal will pay for itself as we move forward. we are not going to build plants that, in fact, are great polluting plants. >> the green new deal. >> pardon me. >> do you support -- >> no, i don't support the green new deal. >> oh you don't, that's a big statement. the radical left -- >> i support the biden plan, at i put forward. >> okay. >> the bid plan which is different than at he calls the

radical green new teal. >> all right, gentlemen, final segment. election integrity, as we meet tonight, millions of americans are receiving mail in ballots or going to vote early. how confident should we be that dhis will be a fair lection an what are you prepared to do over the next five plus weeks, because it will not only be to election day but also counting some ballots, mail in ballots you prepared to do reassurehat e the american people that the next president will ebe th legitimate winner of this election in this final sgment, mr. vice president you go first. >> i am prpared to let people vote dot.com and cide how and wn they are going to vote and by which means they are going to his own homeland security director as well as the fbi director says there is nen ev at all that mail-in ballots are a source of being manipulated and cheating. they said that.

thfact is that they are going toce millions of people ause of covid that are going to be voting by mail-in ballots like he does by the way, he sits ballot to florida, number one, number 2 we are going make sure that those people who want to vote in person are able to vote because there are enugh poll watchers there to make sure they can socially distance, the polls are open on time and the polls stay open until the votes are d you counted and this is all about trying to dissuade people fro voting because he is trying to scare pele into thinking that it is not going to to be legitimate. show up and vote. e you will term the outc this election. vote, vote, vote. if you are able to vote early in your state, vote early. if you are able to rote in person, vote in person, but whatever ways is the way for you, because you will -- he cannot stop you frm bng able to determine the outcome of this election. antin terms of whether or n when the votes are counted and they are all counted, they willi be accepi win, that will

be accepted, if i lose that will be accepted.he but byay, if in fact he says he is not sure what he is going to accept w mell lettell you manager it doesn't matter pause if we get the votes, it is going to be all over. ow is going to go. he can't stay in and it won't happen. it won't happen. so vote. just make sure you understand you have it in your control to determine what this country is going to look like in the next four years. is it going to change? or mohr, four more yers of these lies. >> mr. president, tw t mr. presiden minut. >> when i listen to joe talk about a transition, there has been no transition from when i won, i won that election and if you look at crooked hillary clinton if you look at all of the differenteople, there was no transition, because they came after me trying to do aou coup and came after me spying on my campaign, they started from the day i w and even befoi won, from the day i came down the escalator with the first lady, they were a disaster, they were a disgrace to our country

and we have caught they, we caught them all, we haveott all on tape, we have caught them all and by the way you gave the idea for the logan act against general flynn, you better take a look at that because we caught you a sense, and president obama was sitting in the office f knew about it too so don't tell me about ae trancing, as far as the ballots are concerned, it is a disaster. a solicited ballo okay, solicid is okay. you soliciting and asking and they send it back and you send it back. i d that. if you have an unsolicited -- they are sending millions of ballots all over the. count there is fraud, the found them in creeks and found some with name trump just hppened to have the aim trump just the other day in a wastepaper basket, they re being sent all over the place. they sent two in a democratic area and extent out 1,000 ballots, everybody got two proud like you have never seen. the other thing. it is nice on november 3rd you are watching an you see who wonh election and i think we are going do well because people are really happy with the job we have done.

but you know what? we won't know, we might not know for months, becse these ballots are going to be all over, take a look at what happened in manhattan, take a look at what happened in new jersey, take a look at what happened in virginia and other places. they are not losing two percent, one percent, which by the way is too much an election could be won or lost with that, they are3 losi and 40 percent. it is a fraud. and it is a shame and can you panel where they say you have to have your ballot in by november 10th, november 10th, that means -- th is seven days after the election in theory ld have been announced. we have major states with that, all run by democrats. >> two minutes. >> all run by democrats. >> president trump,. >> >> you will be able to continue. inyou have been chafor months that mail-in balloting is say it is rig and it is going to lead to rodriguez, but in 2018 l in thst midterm election 31 million peoe voted mail- voting, that was a quarter, more

than a quarterf all of the voters that year, cast their ballots by mail, now that millions of mail in ballots have gone out, what are you going to do about it and are you counting on the supreme court, including a justice barrett to ttle any disputes? >> i think i am counting on them definitely.the ballots, i don't definitely. wrong, i hope we don't need them in terms of the election itself but for the ballots i think so, because what is happening is i just heard, i rd today where at least one peash of the ballots for 2016 were invalidated. they take -- we don't like them, we don't like them and throwing em out. >> there are million of ballots. >> you do a sol bicitedallot. >> that's okay. >> or you go and vote. fact that millionseople. the >> you go and vote. >> you go and vote. >> what i am saying is. >> millions of pelle. >> you either do, chris, a u solicited ballot where e sending it in, and they are sending it back and they have mail hen with lots of -- did you see what is going on

take a look 0 at west virginia, mail men selling the ballots, they are bei sold, they are being dumped in rivers, this is a horrible thing for our country. ->> there is no - >> there is no -- evidence of 0 that. >> this is not going to end well. here is not going to end well. >> five states had mail in ballots for to the last decade or more, five, including two republican states. and you don't have to solicit the ballot. it is sent to you. it is sent to your home. what we are saying is, they are saying it has to be a postmark byhe te, by election at a, if it doesn't get in until the seventh, eighth, ninth, it still should be counted. he is just afraid of counting the votes. >> you are wrong, you are wrong. >> i want to continue with you owl on this. >> vice president biden. >> he is so wrong. >> excuse me. vice presidentiden, the biggest problem, in fact, over the years with mail-in votings asbeen fraud, historically, iteen that sometimes hundreds of thousands of ballots are thrown out

because they have not be properly filled out or there is some other irregularity or missed a deadline so the question i have, are youth concerne the supreme court with a justice barrett will settle any dispute? >> i am concerned that any coure would sehis because here is the deal. when you file -- when you get a ballot, and you fill it out, you are supposed to have an affidavit, if you didn't know, you have to have someone say that this is me. you should be le to, if in fact you can verify that is you when -- before thballot thrown out, that is sufficient lotbe able to count the bal because someone made a mistake and not, who they voted for, stify, say who they voted or, say it is you, that is totally legitimate. >> all right. >> no, no. >> no. >> a million ballots. >> a swamping the sy- stemyou know it can't be done. you know it can't and already -- >> gentlemen.

>> final question -- we can keep talking. in eight siotes, ele workers are prohibited currently by law, eight states fm even beginning to process ballots, even take them out of the envelopes. >> yes. >> and flaen them until election day. that means that it is like by because there is going to be a huge increase in mail-in balloting we are not going to know on electio wnigo the winner is, that it could be days, it could be weeks. >> it could be months. >> until we find out who the new president is. so first for you, sir, finally, for the vice president, i hope neither of you will interrupt the other, will you urge your upporters to stay calm during thistended period, not to engage in any civil unrest and will youpledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the elction has been independently certified? >> president trump, you go rst. >> i am urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that is what

has to happen. i am urging them to do it of as rob.know today, there was a big in philadelphia, they went in to watch, they were called follow watchers, very safe, very nice not allowed to watch, you knowd why? philadelphia, bad things, goal watchers. >> and i am, uh urging my people hope it is going to bea fair election, if it is a fair election i am 100 percent on board. but if i see tens of thousands of ballots being ma nine laid i can't go along a with that. and i will tell youhat -- does that mean you are going to -- >> it means you have a taunt election. >> and -- >> what are you going to do about a that? >> these people aren't equipped to handle it, number one, nuber 2 they cheat, they cheat. hey, they found ballots in a wastepaper basket three days ago and they all had the name mitary ballots, they were military. they all had the name trump on them. >> vice president biden, do you think that is good. >> vice president biden final question for you, will you urge

your supporters to stay calm while the vote is counted and will you pledge not to declare victory until the eleion is independently certified? >> yes. and here is the deal, we count the ballots, as you pointed out, some of these ballots in some states can't even opened until election day. ballots it wilake time to dof it. by the way our military have been voting by ballots for- since the end of the civil war, in effect. and that is what is going to happen. why was it not -- why is it for them somehow not fraudulent? it is the same process. it is hones no one h accomplished at all that there is fraud related to mail-in ballots. that somehow it is a fraudulent process. >> it already has been accomplished. >> take a looat carolyn maloney's race. >> you had an opportunity to respond. >> they have no idea what happened. >> vice president biden. >> he has no idatea e is talking about. the fact is i will accept it and he will oo, you know why?

because once the winner is declared after all of theco ballots arnted, all of the votes are counted, that will be the end of it. that will be the end of i. and if me, in fact, fine, if it is not me, i will support the outcome. and i will be th president no just for the democrats i will be a president for democrats and republicans. and this guy. >> i want to see honest balt. gentlemen, that is the end of it, this is the end of the debate. est ballot count. >> we will leave it there to be continued in more debates -- as we go on. biden, it has been anresident interesting hour and a half, i want to thank you both for participating in the first ofba three s that you have agreed to engage in. we want to thank case western reserve university, and the cleveland clinic thick for hosting this event, the net debate sponsored by the commission on presidential debates will be one week from tomorrow, october 7th at the university of utah in salt lake city, the two vice presidential nominees, vice president mike

pence and senator kamala harris will debate at 9:00 p.m. eastern, that night and we hope you watch, until then, thank you d good night. >> [ applause ] >> woodruff: and thats conclus's coverage of this lerst presidential debate of the 2020 election cwelcome back to the "pbs newshour" special udoverage. i amwoodruff at our studio in washington, d.c. a i have to say, i have never seen a debate likthis one. it was more of a brawl at tim than it was a debate. asked by the moderator chrisac wanot to interrupt. therethere were tough words exanged, the president accused joe biden of being radical left, of being not mart, someone who is trying to steal the election, we heard joe biden say she the worst president the untry has ever had. and at one point early in the

debate said shut up, man. i think it is fair to say we brue new grond with presidential debates. joining me now to look at a little of what was said tonight, the newshour yamiche alcindor and lisa desjardins, let's turn to you, yamiche, first, the president was h determined ve his say tonight, wasn't he >> that's right, judy, this was an all-out dogfight, a brawl, it was fierce, it was personal, the oesident said that own uld not have handled the coronavirus pandemic, he said h wasn't smaralso went after him and accused him of being a socialist and then he wanson the deas wroab called him a clown, a racist, a liar, saying he was the boston president i the united states, president trump also in a moment to remember he was asd several times will you denounce white supremacy and said, quote proud boys, stand back and stand by, i also want to do a quick fact check, judy because that was a remarkable moment but

another remarkable moment, itis was when c wallace posed a question multiple times to president trump, how much taxes have yo paid, which you pull up that graphic now on president trump taxes he paid according to "the new york times" $750 in federal inco taxes in 2016, and 750 in 2017, he did not pay income taxings 10 out of the 15 years beginning in 2000 due to losses, president trumhed back on that report and said he has paid millions in taxes somem years h as 38 million but just like in 2016 he said he can't release his tax procedures because he is under aubidit, joe n released his tax returns along with kamala harris today, so joe biden saioit is time t release your taxings. the president wouldn't do that. and we aeard joe biden the moderator say when are we going to see your tackings and the president taxes and the president did not answer as here has not ously. lisa, in terms of joe biden, he was, as we said, interrupted a lot, but he gave as good as he got at

point. >> he did. first i almost feel like i have to take a deep breath andust say i hope everybody out there is okay. that was quite an expncerwe had. there is a lot to unpack ande w talk about wroab, one argument he may was he said that violent crime went down under his and president obama's administration more than with president trump, let's look at a graphut what we know about that. biden quoted a statistic he said it went down 17 to 15 percent, that's true. the fbi crime statistics showol tht crime rates, the rate per capita did go down 16 percent under president barack obama. now, biden also said that rde rates have gone up and in fact he said everything has gone up in terms of violent crime under president trump, that we do not yet know. in fact, the fbi statistics show that the rate o violent crime dipped in 2017 and 2018 under president trump. we did not yet have statistics, judy, for 2019.

there is some data that showses cially in cities, the murder rates have gone up and violent crime has gone up ithe last year but the fbi has not guiled thosstatistics yet so it is really ex-trap playing what some people see in general and it is noyet known. >> woodruff: just quickly to you yamiche alcindorterms of covid, the president's handling of covid we heard a lot of critism from joe biden about the number of americans who have died, yamiche, is thesa presidening anything -- what did you hear tonight contrasted with whe president has said on covid? the president really was saying what he always said on covid which is he did the best he could do. he talked abouthe fact that he banned travel there china, what he did of course was not ban meet travel from china, there were americans that were coming in there china, europeans thatin were cinrom china at one point, so the real estate was saying he really is tryi make sure also that this vaccine is going to be out and in the hands of a americasoon as

possible, health officials say his timeline seems to be quicker than they can imagine the other thing to note is the real estate el, 43 really talked about the united states is doing a goodc job in theoronavirus, i don't think we have a photographic up right now but what i will say the united states s doing poorly when you look at modernized industrialized naons when you compare it germany, the european union, deaths and infs are higherhe than those other countries that we compare ourselves to.si so the pnt was not right in trying to say the united states is handling the coronavirus well. just quickly, joe biden wasa, challenged by the president to expln why he wasn't in favor of closing down china earlier. and at one point it got into a discussion about whieves the scientists and what biden had said about that. >> that's right. and also the words of hisru ing mate, kamala harris came into play, her words that she was fearful that scientists uld be muzzled, chris wallace

questioned whether that raised more fear, and was contributing to problems biden's answer to that was no, it was sort of pointingut from his point of view an issue with the trump administration and how they handle science in their view repressing the science.uf >> woo all right. lisa desjardins, yamiche alcindor, turning now to some analysis of the debate, we arr joined by ou panel, amy walter host of public radio's, gary, t, fantributing gary abernathy contributing columnist for the "washington post", acoln residence at the university of south alabama. >> so amy wter, i don't know if you have seen a debate like this one, i certainly haven't, but give us yourake away. >> yeah, i am still trying to recover from what we saw here, judy. and i don't know that anybody should feel pticularly good about what just happened for the last 90 minutes. i anybody will ever even

remember anything about the last 90 minutes other than it loed like a food fight. in fact, i am quite curious if we had dial tests to see how many people after the first 15 minutes actually turned this thing off. but look as ie aid at tvery beginning the goal of donald trump is to change the narrative in this race, to put joe biden on the the defensive to make the focus oa chice between donald trump and joe biden, instead of just a referendum on dold trump. and i don't think he was particular i are eective in doing that tonight. now, what he was able to do byth constant interrupting was to kind of get joe biden out of th grooe biden never was able to get into a comfortable smooth iace to make his case, but he didn't rattle hihis any the way that trump and tru industries stores had hoped to where he would either say mething completely terrible or a meltdown or loshis -- allows but, you know, this goes back to

the challenge the president trump has had from the very beginning, the way he operates is the way he likes to operate, and there is a certain percent thof the american publiat also likes to see that. people who don't le that more behavior, and part of the reason that the president is trailing right now is that independent voters, women, susburban vot what they tell us over and over again is this exact kind of style, the bullying, the interrupting, the chaos is what they are exhausted by and so what the presidentas offering was four more years of that, which to his supporters might be appealing, but to the folks out they don't want anymore of that he didn't offer any other option. >> and ry georgia gary abernathy i believe you told uto going he debate the greater burden was on joe biden to show that he could be a

president, the right presence, the right alternative, what did you see in. >> yeah, i think the challenge for biden was really to answer trump's challenge and hison quesg about whether he could do a 90 minute debate, have the stamina for it, thefo s for it, and he difficult that. i thought he was shaky at times but he did that. and given that, you know, that is kind of a low bar, but then fact that bis leading in the polls right now, that was probably good for him, i think t wh dust settles tonight i don't think anything changes. which is good for biden if you are in the lead. i thought that biden was a little weak tonight the law and order issue. and i thought he was a little weak on the -- he won answer whether he would pack the court or not. judy and i think at some point he really s tanswer that question. i thought that trump went too far on some of h attacks on hunter biden, in particular, thge are some leitimate questions there, but trump made

it too personal a way i thiconk d lead to actually somesy athy for biden because trump was so aggressive, four years ago trump tidwell by kind of presenting himself as not the politician, that appealed to a p lot ople. i am not politician. i am not professional. a after tonight we will see whether some people particularly swing voters begin to think to themselves, you know, maybe a professional politician is not such a bad idea. >> woodruff: cynthia tucker, what did you makef o what we watched in. >> my goodness, judy, this is the firworld wrestling federation match i think i have ever seen. i assned my students to write about this debate and one of the questions i asked them was whatl did tharn? i can't wait to see what their answers were. i am not sure any viewer learne anything much tonight. but i have to agree with the

analysis that president trump needed to move the neehedle. s behind in the polls and i can't imagine that he did that. i am sure that his base, people who like his style, his piewnlistic style, his pugilistic style, his always attacking, his personal attacks certainly think he carried the y. but as amy said earlier for all of those voters who areus exd by the sense of chaos that has already engulfed their lives, what they saw from president trump, i think, promised us just four more years of tht. i will be interested to see what the next debates like, whether the moderators think that theyp can come with a method of having the speckers stick to the rules more often. but i am not sure that they can.

as for biden, i think that trump and his allies had already set the bar so low for him, what he eded to do he accomplished. he didn't commit any gaffs that will tom nate the news cycle over the next 24 hours. dominate the news cycle over the next 24 hours. i thought he moe good d points n covid and healthcare and racism, i thught he did well on those. he -- but it was also in many ways from both candidas one of the meanest, most demoralizing debates i have ever seen for heaven's sake. not only was the president yelling and calling biden a liar but biden called the president of the united stat a clown and said he was the worst president

in american history. again, i have never seen anything likit and i could go for the rest of my life not seeing another debate like that. >> woodruf i think a lot of people will be wondering if the next two prentsil debates will match this one in terms of the temperature and the language. cynthia tucker, gary abernathy, amy coney m -- amy walter we thank all of you for sitting through this with us and now i want to trn to our national correspondent amna nawaz she has been watching the debate along with a group of americans as part of our voices of the voters project. am naah, their reactions? amna. their reactions.rt >> we she night with six voters, three leaning toward voting for mr. biden, three leaning toward voting for president trump, and basically ended exactly the same way. i can tell you even though a lot of them had different ideas

about some of the issues, some of the approaches as weed che in with them and had a conversation as they watched the debate, we all watchedt together, we kind of ended the evening with bipartisan support on a few big issues, one, none of them found thee debat informative, none of them thought there was nearly enough policy, and nearly everyone said they were disappointed both candidates conduct during the debate. a couple of quick pullouts, austin is one of our voters we were focusing on because he is a college student, he comes from a family of republicans but he i leaning towards voting for a president president biden he thinks none of them any particular well so he is not chnging his mid, lorraine is a principal from california and compared the candidates behavior to kindergarteners on the playground, bruce who is a retired police offer also sai he was disappointed and felt that both candidates took it too personal in some o their attacks. disappointment across the board from these voters and no one has moved from theioir pos that they began with 90 minutes ago. judy. >> so just quickly, amna, they

didn't hold one candidate or another more reponsible except coming from the sides they >> no.y supported? that's right, judy. i think most of. them went into the night nng to feel better about their candidate, looking as they said for a little bit more policy, for a little bit moth polish, all om say that they walked away disappointed byll, by both of the candidates conduct over the course of the evening and they also said, jy, the first question i asked them coming out at the end of the debate, did anyone feel like thy learned anything new? do you feel like you learned anything about your candidate, about a policy, about issue, not a single person raised their hand, and yet they are all go to be watching the next debate as well and judy we are going to continue the conversation as well, we will talk to them for another 25, 30 minutes and get their full take aways, all theie reactions onssues, that is going to take place online at pbs.org/newshour, and i hope folks join us there to tune in to thaconversation. judy. >> woodruff: i know people will want to do that, amna is

going to continue her conversation with these voters, talk to them about what their impressions were in dend we will continue to report on that online, and of course on the newshour tomorw night. evening, i think raisingm questions about the nature of the next two presidential debates in this cycle, both of them will take place in the month of october, along wth a vice presidential debate which we are guessing will coacross with a slightly different tenor than this one, maybe a dramatically different tenor buo we will findut. but that does conclude the newshour special coverage of this first 2020 presidential debate, i do want to thank our coespondents, yamiche alcindor, lisa desjardins, and as you just heard from, amna nawaz, andhanks to o panel a amy walter, gary abernathy andou cynthia tuckercoverage will continue onur website with a voice of the voters nel. for all of us here at the "pbs newshour", i am judy woodruff, thank you, please stay safe ando

night. >> this program was made possible by the corporation for and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioning sponsored by newshour productions, llc captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ♪

announcer: tonight... michael waldman: it was the first time you had thisinind of non-violent ong civil disobedience li on a great pubissue in the nation's capital. marcia chatelain: women are realizing, if they don't act in these ways, nothing will change. tina cassidy: a hunger strike was taking it to the next level. chatelain: the fact that owoman will put her bothe line to be a citizen is considered shocking. th announcer: conclusion of "the vote." tonight on "american experience." announcer: major funding for "american experience" is provided by: announcer: for 25 years, consumer cellulars been offg no-contract wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. our u.s.-based customer service team can help find a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit consumercellular.tv.