yamiche: the pressure campaign and the danger of election lies. >> thanks to your bull [beep] we are now under siege. >> the january 6 committee offers chilling new details on former president trump pressuring vice president pence to overturn the 2020 election. >> hang mike pence! yamiche: and even putting pence's life in danger by enraging the mob. >> the big lie was also a big ripoff. yamiche: the committee also accuses trump of scamming his supporters. >> i thought boy, if he really believes this stuff, he's become the -- detached from reality. yamiche: and lying about election fraud. plus -- >> today's 75 basis point increase is an unusually large one. and i do not expect moves of this size to be common. yamiche: the fed takes aggressive action to prevent a

recession. but will it work? next. announcer: this is "washington week." corporate funding is provided b. additional funding is provided by koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, sandra and carl delay-magnuson, rose hirschel and andy shreeves, robert and susan rosenbaum, the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. once again, from washington, moderator yamiche alcindor. yamiche: good evening and welcome to "washington week." this week, the january 6 committee highlighted two key

points from the investigation. former president trump knew he lost the 2020 election and lied anyways. and leading up to january 6, and even on that day, trump tried to bully vice president pence into overturning the election results. on monday, the committee's vice chair liz cheney had this to say. >> president trump rejected the advice of his campaign experts on election night. and instead followed the course recommended by an apparently inebriated rudy giuliani to just claim he won and insist that the vote counting stop. to falsely claim everything was fraudulent. yamiche: during thursday's hearing, witnesses told the committee how trump and lawyer john eastman demanded pence stop the electoral vote count. and they explained why the demands were unconstitutional. >> there is no justifiable basis to conclude that the vice president has that kind of authority. yamiche: conservative judge michael ludig also said that

it's clear trump and his supporters will likely seek to overturn the 2024 presidential election if the republican nominee loses. he issued this stark warning. >> donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american dimmock -- democracy. yamiche: joining me to discuss this and more, carol leonnig, national investigative reporter for "the washington post." ayesha rascoe, host of "weekend edition sunday" on n.p.r., a big w gig and we're happy forker her and joining me in suedio, scott macfarlane, congressional correspondent for cbs news and eva mckend, national politics reporter for cnn. thank you all for being here, scott, i have is to start with you. you've been all over these january 6 committee hearings. and of course the prosecutions. i wonder out of what -- all of the things that we saw this week, what sticks out most in your mind? scott: 17 months later, we're

still hearing revelations. we're still getting new details. it's quite striking. two hearings this week, both went about t hours. it's how each hearing ended that i found most striking. let's go back to tuesday. this hearing about voter fraud and the big lie and this election denialism. they ended the hearing focusing on how it was also a big grist. how out of this big lie, the trump team, the campaign, set up these organizations that collected a quarter of a billion dollars, money that is difficult to track, money that is somewhere in the ether. that was noteworthy. something we hadn't heard before. then thursday, we have this dynamic hearing about the pressure campaign put on mike pence before january 6. the near death experience he had on january 6, and they finished the hearing with almost this predictive model from judge ludig that this wasn't a past threat. this is a kinetic threat. and an ongoing risk to our democracy.

almost prophetic that 24 hours later, donald trump is out there denying the insurrection, calling it a hoax, and denying that five people died. yamiche: and scott, i should tell you, of course, this is your debut on "washington week." and the way that just broke that down, obviously we're going to have you back at this table. because you really do get at exactly how important both of these hearings were. you also said to our producer specifically when it comes to thursday, and that time line that lawmakers worked out that it was particularly pivotal. tell me about that. scott: let's look at the time line that they spelled out out at the hearing. 2:00 p.m. the white house warned there's violence at the capitol. the vice president's at risk. people could be hurt or killed. 2:00. 2:24, trump tweets criticism. about mike pence, saying he lacked courage. again questioning the legitimacy of the election. 2:25 p.m., that's one minute later, mike pence is evacuated out the back of the senate chamber. he comes within 40 feet of a righteous mob, some of whom according to an f.b.i. witness

and the committee were willing to murder him. 2:45 p.m., ashley babbitt shot as they breached the house speaker's lobby. that's the time frame. what the committee is saying is that donald trump directed a mob toward his vice president and the committee has been unequivocal. they say donald trump was part of a conspiracy to defraud the united states. spelling out that time frame. illustrating it with the images and -- in the rioters' voices and captivating and frightening. yamiche: it was rivetting and carol, i want to come to you. barcia the january 6 committee, they vealed new photos that were so striking and show we have -- for our audience they show vice president pence underunderneath the cap tackle takingalls and refusing to get in a car and saying he is going to continue to finish his duty. we have photos of those that we'll show in a minute. you counted the steps at the time. of how close these rioters came to vice president pence. i wonder what you take away from the danger of what we now know -- what the committee's

arguing is a conspiracy to overturn the 20 to election. ayesha: two great parts of the same question. so in the days after january 6, my colleagues and i at the "washington post" were learning from secret service sources and others how what mortal danger vice president pence was in. and that time line was known then, too. that basically president trump tweeted a target on pence's back as people had broken into the capitol. the first glass to break at the capitol was at 2:10 p.m. and trump tweeted for all of his supporters that he hated pence and he lacked courage and again, put that target on his back. what i take from the pictures back to your question, yamically, is that -- yamiche, is that pence is calm and solid per our reporting and acting like the commander in chief that

day. he is determined, like no one can be determined, that he is going to stay and finish that job. despite the target on his back. despite president trump sicking a violent mob upon him. and those folks tromping through the halls are chanting "hang mike pence, hang mike pence" and he did potentially fabs the chants of assassination that daf assassination that day." and a basement that's secure but not that secure, he refuses to get in the limo out of fear and concern that the secret service will whisk him away. he says to his detail leader, tim, trust you. but you're not the guy driving the car. i'm not getting in. and he also begins a series of calls to the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, to the secretary of defense, and also to the acting attorney general, calls that donald trump never made that day to try to clear the capitol, secure the

building, check on the national security of the country, and the washington capitol and the mall. and begins insisting this is -- we're going to finish this work. and i'm staying to do it. yamiche: and it's that decision, really, that allows the democracy of america to continue. lawmakers argue. ayesha, i want to come to you because we covered of course the trump administration together. you said that all of the things that we're hearing, while of course striking are part and parcel with how an administration ibid under donald trump was acting. explain what you mean by that and talk a bit what you took away from this week. ayesha: i mean, look, it's obviously clearly shocking to have -- to see how close the democracy of the u.s. came to falling. but at the end of the day, it's not that surprising when you have looked at what trump was doing in the white house over and over again. you had basically over and over again, trump decided he wanted to do something. and then what happened is you

would have basically the white house will come up with some legal strategy to make it happen. even if it wasn't really legal. even if it was trying to get, you know, the wall built and you don't have congressional funds. and try to find some fig leaf so why are we surprised that when it came to the election and he wanted to stay in power, that he didn't want to keep that going, that he wanted to make sure that, look, i want to stay in power, and i'm going to listen to the people who tell me i can do that. and that was john eastman. and that's why john eastman had all of this power. they kept pushing it and pushing it. and i think what comes out in these hearings is like how close we came to things going really bad way. if things had just a few things had went differently, we will be having a very different discussion. and like that's the thing that is almost scary about january 6. yamiche: and eva, ayesha really does speak exactly to what i wanted to ask you about that there's all this praise for vice president pence. but there were so many individuals who were trying to

go the wrong way. what do you take away, especially because you're out there talking to people and talking to politicians who are still denying that the 2020 election was not rigged, what do you take away from how close we came? eva: well, it was incredibly close. we were on the precipicive a -- of a constitutional crisis and that can't be downplayed. my takeaway from this exercise, from these hearings, is that, you know, america, i think, is having an opportunity to look at ourselves in the mirror. we often like to say that we are the beacon of democracy, from a young age, i think queer taught that we are the model nation, and that other people should mirror how we act as a country. but look at who we were in our ugliest moment. i think that this -- these hearings are so important because they are instructive about how we move forward. this idea that america is the greatest country in the world, well, we almost fell as a matter of fact. and for the -- furthermore, i

think that t -- the -- we -- we've put sort of a pin in the balloon of american arrogance. that was my takeaway. that we have to sort of be somber about this moment. and really refle on who we are as a nation. also, this week, this should not get lost. the man that was carrying the confederate flag through the capitol, he was convicted along with his son. that -- you know, that really speaks to where we are as a country. and all of that should not -- should not get lost as we digest the meaning of these hearings. yamiche: and carol, i want to come to you because talking about what -- doesn't want to get lost in this sort of humbling that we have. weave these characters that show us at our you go i left and talk -- ugliest and talk about john eastman and new emails that the committee has obtained between ginni thomas the wife of clarence thomas, supreme court justice, clarence thomas, now the committee wants to talk to

her. she tells conservative media that she's looking forward to talking to the committee. and when you look at all of this, my question is what do you think lawmakers really hope to get when it comes to talking to ginni thomas but also learning more about john eastman? carol: you know, yamiche, so smart for you to focus on this because this is a mess. i want to say get a broom. this is a mess. the committee is conflicted about -- and has been conflicted about questioning ginni up until this moment. ginni thomas, clarence thomas' wife. she's a g.o.p. activist. has been for decades. however, in this instance, she appears to be somebody that was trying to aid and abet donald trump's push for a conspiratorial coup and was pushing the white house chief of staff to use every lever he could to keep temperature -- trump in power despite election results and emails she was talking with eastman to come speak to her group, that she was

associated with, a conservative group that also was seeking to keep trump in power. what is worrisome about this, for the committee, they're crossing into a line, they're getting some facts, hopefully, from ginni thomas. but now they're starting to investigate a person who's ultimately direcy related to another branch of government. and what a mess it will be. because clarence thomas is in a situation where he can't rule on anything involving january 6 from here on out. his wife has been called to testify about her actions promoting what happened on january 6. potentially. and i want to know the facts. but i'm concerned for where this ultimately leads. and i think that there are members of congress that are wondering the same. how does congress now while investigating the executive branch begin to investigate an arm. supreme court. yamiche: yeah. the judicial branch.

scott, you're shaking your head here and i want you to jump in. because i'm really also interested in the fact that the d.o.j. is asking the committee for all their transcripts and there's all this talk back and forth of whether or not there might be criminal referrals. what are you learning when you talk to lawmakers about when the tension beten the d.o.j. and the committee but also the criminal liability that some of these people like john eastman could possibly be facing? scott: it's worth reminding folks there are two separate unprecedented investigations. this january 6 committee is unlike any of us has ever seen, this unique group of nine, seven democrats, two republicans, speaking with one voice, with choreographed and rather disciplined hearings. that's unique in congress. but there's also the largest criminal investigation in american history going on. the justice department is during has charged 840 plus people. theye been pretty clear there are hundreds more to come. many of those who have yet to be arrested are accused of assaulting police. these are high-level defendants. but there is a nexus between these two investigations. they're very interested in each

other obviously. they're both undertaking investigations of parallel things. but there's a group in which both sides are very interested. the proud boys. this seditious conspiracy case, this large group of alleged con superiors -- conspirators, the highest level justice department case so far and a case that they have made a huge priority and the name keeps coming up at the committee hearings, too. the committee has drawn some type of connection between the proud boys and the overall attack on january 6. and see where they go. put the -- but the justice department in the meantime wants all the committee's depositions. they want the transcripts of the interviews. they say so they can prosecute the proud boys. and other january 6 criminals. there's a court hearing wednesday in the proud boys' case. watch that closely to learn more about all those things. yamiche: it's fascinating sort of where they might be going with this. ayesha, i want to come to you because there was this moment where we heard of the big grift apparently. they called it a big ripoff. it is of course the fundraising

campaign that formerresident trump undertook to try to collect money for the election fraud fund. and they say it's $250 million raised. what do you make of that given the fact that of course this is something that is still ongoing when -- when you listen to president trump, even today, he was at a rally saying that the january 6 was a protest. that kind of got a little out of hand. ayesha: well, i mean, look, former president would say that it was -- out hand and he is not known for sticking to the facts. we can say that. right? and i think it's -- it's not like -- during this whole period of time, i was on the email list. i get the text messages as a reporter. because i wanted to see like how are they trying to raise money? and trump never stopped raising money during this time. like -- you know, the pacs, they were going to save america and fix the election and all these

things. and there's no account for where that money goes. and this is a theme throughout the administration. this is a theme throughout trump's history with the public office when he was president. is where does all the money go? he's trying to run his business. but he says he's not doing that. but his family is making money at this hotel. and there are all these questions of money and raising money and where it goes. and it continued to happen after the election. and the thing is, i think that a lot of people that were sending this money, unfortunately, they're not going to be too concerned that it didn't go to help the election or to fix the election or whatever. they thought. because they backed president -- they backed former president trump. and they believe that, you know, whatever he said, they would just send him money as a support thing. like that's -- so much of this has become with trump, not about like what actually happens. it's just about showing their support for him. it's really like an identity issue. yamiche: and carol, i want to come to you before we quickly

turn to the economy which of course is a big deal. but one last question for you on january 6. which is there was a shrinking inner circle where you see people leaving the picture, where it's bill steppian or ivanka and jared. and you have talked to and interviewed former president trump after leaving office. who is with him now and what is the future of this movement look like? carol: oh, wow. good question. so when phil rucker my co-author and i at the "washington post," we went down to see him in mar-a-lago in march. and it was like he was living is elba or his own little brigadoon. he was living an alternative reality where he won the election. john mccain was evil. everybody was stupid. it was in the republican party who didn't support him. and he was still being celebrated with hail to the chief on the mar-a-lago patio when he went out to dinner after we interviewed him. people stood at attention.

this is where he was living in his mind. as for the people that are still around him, it's a much smaller group of secret service agents. smaller detail. and just a few loyal folks who have stayed on. i did not see either ivanka or jared. however, at dinner, i did see donald trump jr. and kimberly guilfoyle and eric trump and his wife, laura. so there is still a hard core group. there were also people who were coming to sort of kiss the ring. lawmakers who want to get re-elected in the midterms and they're seeking his endorsement. that is not any joke. i will say, however, it seems that his support, his ardent support, from people like a bill barr or the cadre of old mainstream republicans has all but disappeared. all but dried up. those folks are quietly saying the man's off his rocker.

and we're not going to double down with him ever again. yamiche: it's fascinating. that you're giving us that reporting and i really appreciate you sort of giving us that window into where this movement is. i want to turn of course to the economy really quickly which is on wednesday, the federal reserve raised interest rates by three quarters of a percent. this was the central -- biggest rate hike since 1994. this was an aggressive step to try to control the rapid rise in inflation. eva, i want to come to you because on one hand you have this conservative judge saying this is president trump is a clear and prese danger to our democracy. but also there are people that are hurting financially who are not watching sometimes these hearings. what's your reporting tell you about sort of the tension there and the economic challenges. ayesha: not -- many on the right are not qualification, they are enraged by these hearings. they are enraged by the suggestion that the former president, that they hold so dear, the -- the suggestion that he is engaged in this thuggish behavior as outlined by the

committee. so that is something that the democrats have to contend with. yes, they are trying to do this for the historical record. yes, they are trying to do this get to the bottom of what happened. but at the same time, there are many in this country that are not trying to hear this. i was in north carolina a few weeks ago with the victor in the senate republican primary there, ted budd, and the signs up at his rally were bidenflation signs. that was the most prevalent sign that i saw. because republicans, that is what they are focusing on. they are putting the blame whether it is wanted or not. mostly at the feet of president biden. yamiche: and scott, what is this sort of political liability here for democrats and president biden when they're trying to message out of this, but there are these real economic issues? and the polls show that the president is facing a real sort of dip in his polls ahmed all these economic fears. scott: how do you message out of $5 a gallon gas and grocery prices on a saturday morning that cost you 50% more than a

few months ago? gas and groceries are kryptonite if they're working against you as an incumbent. and inflation is going to cost something more proverbial. it's going to cost democrats the ability to have a referendum on the preservation of democracy. it's going to cost democrats the opportunity potentially to have a referendum on roe vs. wade in the wake of a supreme court ruling because it's intransigent if you have voters who are frustrated, angry, or scared by gas and grocery prices, it's hard to have other conversations. i don't know how you can message out of that. ayesha: what i've seen is there is real frustration with president biden because he has long fashioned himself as sort of someone that can connect with the everyman, right? and he is in a position where he really can't feel the pain of that $5 a gallon gas price. right? but he's still i think is so sort of personally insulted by being a -- characterized as someone that can't relate to everyday americans.

yamiche: and ayesha, 30 seconds to you, what are you hearing when you think about the sort of economic challenges and politics of all of this? ayesha: well, the politics of it is as was said, you cannot message your way out of this sort of economic pain and even though the president may not be responsible for inflation, he will bear the brunt of the anger and the frustration about it. he is responsible for it now. and unfortunately, there are not many tools that he can use to try to fix the situation. and there's a lot of suffering ahead for people with these higher prices. yamiche: and you can just hear it in the voices of white house officialives i talk to, they are very concerned about these economic challenges. and know that they have to deal with it. well, i'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for our panel for joining us. and for sharing your reporting. ayesha, scott, eva, will be sticking around for the "washington week" extra. this week's topic the political fallout after yet another tumultuous week on wall stree join us on our website, facebook, and youtube, and on pbs news weekend, jeff bennett sits down with legendary singer

bonny raitt. and finally i would like to acknowledge that this weekend is juneteenth. now a federal holiday, juneenth marks the day on june 19, 1865, that enslaved african-americans in texas were told they were free. it's long been an annual commemoration of the end of slavery that has been celebrated by african-americans. thank you so much for joining us. i'm yamiche alcindor. good night from washington. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] yamiche: corporate funding for >> for 25 years, consumered by - cellular has been offering no contract wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. our u.s.-based customer service team can help find a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit consumercellular.tv. announcer: additional funding is provided by koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in

our communities, sandra and carl delay-magnuson. rose hirschel and andy shreeves. robert and susan rosenbaum. the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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