♪ judy: good evening. on "the newshour" tonight, unsealed. a newly public warrant and receipts from the search of mar-a-lago reveal fbi agents retrieved top-secret documents from former president trump's home. then five years later, charlottesville, virginia, reckons with the trauma caused by a deadly white supremacist rally and questions if the nation has made any progress in rooting out extremism. >> i had hoped that the united the right rally would light a fire and urge charlottesville to become modern, and i think we still have that hope, but i do not think we are there yet. judy: and it's friday.

weighing in on the investigation surrounding donald trump and primary victories by his supporters who are election deniers. all that and more on tonight's "pbs newshour." ♪ >> major funding for the "pbs newshour" has been provided by -- >> pediatric surgeon. volunteer. topiary artist. a raymondjames financial advisor tailors advice to help you live your life. life well planned. >> and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions and ends of "the newshour," -- friends of "the newshour." >> the john s. and james l. knight foundatn, fostering an

informed and engaged communities. more at kf.org. ♪ >> and friends of "the newshour." this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. judy: a federal judge has unsealed and made public the search warrant for former president donald trump's mar-a-lago estate. a review of the warrant and the list of items removed from trump 's property reveals the fbi collected over 20 boxes of items -- binders of photos as well as

handwritten correspondence on monday. some of those were classified as top-secret, information that should never be outside of a government facility. the former president did not oppose the unsealing of the documents and in a statement released today he asserts that he not only declassified the information but also that the links the fbi went to search his property were not necessary -- the links -- the lengths the fbi went to search his property were not necessary. he said all they had to do was ask. hello to both of you. thank you for joining us. just to clarify this, which government agency was looking for these documents or material? >> this all started when the national archives notified the justice department that within

15 boxes of documents after trump left the white house was some serious information. that prompted this incredible back-and-forth that we are seeing which culminated this week with a search, and in the release of a search warrant, the justice department came looking for any sort of remaining classified documents that were at mar-a-lago, and they found quite a few, as the warrant that we saw today revealed. judy: there has been a lot thrown around about what was in these documents. what was known abouthat was there? for example, nuclear information about nuclear weapons. what is known about what was found? >> we actually know very little from this warrant in and of itself, but what you do know is that there were 11 sets of classified documents contained within these boxes, some of which were considered top-secret and openable only in a very

secure government silly. that classification pertains to things like military secrets, defense secrets, information that would be critical to our national security interests, so certainly something like nuclear information would be deemed classified at that level, but the search warrant itself does not actually detail what is inside of those boxes, but it offers some pretty tantalizing glimpses into an investigators are looking at and what they will be pouring over over the next few weeks. -- what they will be poring over over the next few weeks. judy: the former president saying he declassified these documents and also went on to say all they had to do was ask, so which was it? >> we certainly know the former president's team is portraying this as a heavy-handed and aggressive move to the justice department, but two of the federal prosecutors who have been working to try to get this

information, the search was a combination of an effort to return this material after several steps in which they tried to get it and still believe there was more classified information contained on the premises. we know they had been in negotiations with the tmp team and that in june, the justice department filed a subpoena to get still more classified information out of the president's private club, and after that, we know there was somebody familiar with the storage of these papers who believed there was still more classified information at mar-a-lago that had not been retrieved and that the president and his staff were holding onto their. from the justice department's standpoint, this was the end result of a lot of hard work to get these documents back. from the trump team's perspective, they are saying, we were cooperating. why are you taking this aggressive stance? judy: what can we say about if

the department of justice and fbi followed procedures as they should have in doing all this? >> it appears to me that they not only followed procedures but actual went the extra mile to be accommodating to the former president. i would say that if there's top-secret classified documents in my home or your home, i do not think we would have had the lengthy discussions. none of that would happen. there would be no polite conversation. i do think there would be the execution of a search warrant much earlier. judy: what we see from this receipt is that they list three possible criminal violations. the espionage act, an obstruction statute, and a law against destruction or altering of documents. what does that tell us they were looking for? >> i think the most interesting

of the group is 1519, what you dubbed the obstruction statute. ordinarily i would suggest that if i saw that on a search warrant, that would suggest they were looking for, for example, the consuming of records that would be coco tori to somebody. i have seen it in private practice, and that is usually what it means. however, it is a broad statute, and i think part of the question to ask is if they are using that statute in a broader sense because they really wanted to get the documents. judy: i think the question on everyone's mind is what does this mean in terms of if the former president could be charged with some criminal violation? >> i think it means -- i say a couple of things. first of all, i think there is

certainly a possibility the justice department's focus is merely to get these documents back. however, if they wanted to go forward and bring charges, this is much more plausible and, frankly, stronger than many of the potential legalities that are bandied about regarding the former president, and it is simply because there are not a lot of good reasons why one would have this information. it would be very difficult to explain to a jury why he had this information, and the run-up to the execution of the search warrant -- all the discussions between the former president's team and the justice department would actually helped improve the state of mind, in other words, to undercut the defense you showed a moment ago, where he said if you want to the documents, all you had to do was ask. of course, they did ask the former president's team, and if he tried to point the team at

them, he would have to waive executive privilege to do so. judy: is there a way we can know to what extent the trump team was cooperating and to what extent they were resisting requests to turn over this information? we are getting two completely different stories. >> we can just use some common sense, and the common sense is that the justice department, if the reporting is accurate, there were discussions in the subpoena before the search warrant was executed. if the justice department had everything that they needed before the search warrant was executed, they would have never needed to bother with the search warrant, and when they executed the search, there would have been nothing to find. on its face, it is apparent that the cooperation was not where it needed to be from the former president and his team.

judy: quickly, back to you, you mentioned they will be lking at these documents for a few weeks. what are you hearing about how long it may take for them to go through and see what is here? >> if we have seen anything from this justice department, it is that they are meticulous and deliberative, and i think this is just a start of what is sure to be a long and ongoing investigation. i think they will be poring over these documents for some time. i think they are just getting started, and we have been given a significant glimpse, but yet at the same time, kind of a small one into what all they will be looking at and considering in weeks to come. judy: thank you both. >> thank. >> thank you.

♪ judy: in the day's other news, democrats are celebrating another legislative victory. house lawmakers gave final approval to the measure titled the inflation reduction act. proponents of the climate, health care, and tax package claim that it would increase overall spending and worsen inflation, but democrats insist neither is true and that it will bring much-needed relief. >> i am proud we are finally allowing drug prices to be negotiated, lowering those costs. i'm proud we are extending the biggest expansion in health care for thousands of families. >> democrats believe they can spend their way out of reflation -- out of inflation and tax their way out of recession. it will only make the suffering

americans face today that much worse. is bill is simple -- it is welfare for the wealthy environmentalists and big corporations. judy: the legislation now goes to president biden for his signature. stocks rallied on wall street today to notch their fourth straight winning we can to make the longest winning streak since november 20 21. the dow jones industrial average surged 421 points to close at 33,761. the nasdaq rose 260 seven points, and the s&p 500 added 73. award-winning author salman rushdie was attacked on stage today before a lecture at the chautauqua institution in western new york. police say he was stabbed in the neck and airlifted to a hospital for surgery. video shows the suspected attacker being led away as

people tried to help rushd. the suspect was later taken into custody. >> a very -- we are working with the fbi and the sheriffs office, and we will determine what the cause of this was or what the motive of the attack was. we have no and -- no indication there were any previous threats. judy: rushdie was the target of a death warrant in 1989 after his book "the satanic verses" was banned in iran for blasphemy. the poliovirus has been detected in new york city sewage water, suggesting local transmission. that comes just weeks after a case of the disease, which causes paralysis and even death, was identified north of the city. officials are urging people to get vaccinated, especially children who are most at risk. in ukraine, schelling continued overnight at a nuclear power

plant, despite warnings from united nations officials of potential nuclear disaster. further east, children watched as people cleared debris from 11 russian rockets tt reportedly rained down overnight. residents were left to pick up the pieces. >> i'm afraid if i leave i won't have a place to go back to as everything will be destroyed. the youth have hopes to buy or build something. at my age, i can afford to buy myself anything. judy: a united nations transport ship docked in ukraine today. it will bring more than 23,000 metric tons of grain to ethiopia after months of blockades. massive wildfires are raging out of control in southwestern france. the fire has been fueled by dry, scorching weather. 10,000 people work forced to evacuate. -- 10,000 people were forced to

evacuate. the flames have burned more than 29 square miles since tuesday. that comes as an unprecedented drought is gripping nearly half of europe. its effects are far-reaching, damaging agriculture, forcing water restrictions, and threatening species. water levels on the rhine river in germany could reach a critically low point in the coming days, which could cause major issues transporting coal and gasoline. >> for shipping, of course, the death of -- the depth of the fairway is crucial. if you compare this with the last few years, the water levels are exceptionally low. judy: expertsay they fear europe is on track to have its worst drought in 500 years. all this as seasonal flooding in eastern sudan has destroyed more than 2500 homes. torrential rains have devastated portions of the country since

may. united nations officials estimate that some 38,000 people there have an affected by the flooding. still to come, charlottesville reckons with the violence brought by a mob of white supremacists five years ago today. the united states' lead negotiator discusses the prospects for reviving the iran nuclear deal. and we discussed the week's political headlines. plus much more. >> this is the "pbs newshour" from weta studios in washington and in the west from walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. judy: in response to the fbi search at mar-a-lago, some trump supporters have increased calls for a civil war. we take a deeper look at threats of political violence by elements of the far right. >> those dangerous threats are being fueled by conspiracy

theories as well as the mistrust of the fbi and justice department that has been promoted by many republican politicians. to explain the rising extremism on the right, we are joined by a professor at the university of california san diego and author of the book open out how civil wars start." -- "how civil wars start." the mar-a-lago search prompted a lot of trump supporters to call for civil war. how does this fit in to the gring pattern of extremism on the right? >> for those of us who study violent extremism here in the united states, this is not a surprise at all. if you have been on the chat rooms starting in 2008, you would have seen an increasing narrative that talked about shifting to a more violent sttegy if more conventional methods of maintaining power -- and by that, i mean white power -- here ithis country did not work. what we are seeing is that narrative moving into the

mainstream. >> yesterday, a gunman breached an f vi office in cincinnati, ohio, before being killed by authorities. reports say he appeared to be at the january 6 insurrection. he had also previously said he wanted to attack the fbi. when you see these incidents connected to violent rhetoric, what does that say to you? >> we know that violent extremism in the united states has increased consistently since 2008 and continues to increase quite dramatically. we know much of the violence is being perpetrated by far-right groups, and we know the profile of those far-right groups. about 65% are white supremacist groups. about 29% are anti-federal government groups, and there's overlap there. but the anti-federal government groups are groups that think that the federal government is illegitimate. if they see it as legitimate, that it has too much power.

the reason they do not want the federal government to have too much power is that federal law overrides state law, so what we are seeing is an increase in attacks on law enforcement agents and on federal government employees. of course, the gunman in cincinnati was targeting the fbi , and that is no coincidence. and i will say one more thing -- there is a book called "the turner diaries" and it is considered the bible of the far right. it outlines exactly how you would persecute -- how you would conduct a civil war against the u.s. government, and the very first thing it says you should do is to attack the fbi. >> speaking of a distrust of institutions, house minority leader kevin mccarthy has said that if republicans take control of the house, they will investigate attorney general merrick garland, and a number of other republicans have said that

the fbi should be simply destroyed. what signal does that send to the republican base? >> that signals to them that these organizations are illegitimate, that -- or somehow corrupted, that do not deserve to exist. when you get to the point where you begin to believe that, then your trust in democracy and your beli that democracy should continue to exist evaporates. this is exactly a strategy that a would-be autocrat or a strongman would want to pursue. >> also in response to this fbi search, some argue that prosecuting former president trp will absolutely result in a civil war and therefore a breakdown of democracy, but would impunity for trump and bolden the same forces calling for that civil war -- and bolden -- embolden those same forces?

>> first of all, i do not believe prosecuting president trump would be a trigger for civil war because we know what those triggers are. primarily, a loss of hope, which usually comes from a series of losses in elections. if a group that it deserves to be in power loses one election, than a second, then a third, they begin to lose hope that they will ever come to power again. that's when you tend to see a shift towards violence. former president trump is no longer in power. there's going to be an election in 2024. a republican candidate is going to run for power, and if that republican wins that election, there's going to be a resurgence of hope amongst the base, and we will see less risk of civil war rather than more. >> very quickly, you served on a cia-led task force that studied

political instability and violence. that task force was not able to study the u.s. should the u.s. be studied under a similar task force? how would that be done? >> first of all, i should be clear that the cia should absolutely never studied the united states. it is an agency designed to gather intelligence on countries outside the united states. we do not want the cia looking at american citizens. that is essentially what the fbi does. the federal bureau of investigation is an agency that is designed to gather intelligence about threats to american citizens from within the united states. it is design to enforce federal law, so we have an agency that already is in place to do that and in fact can do a very, very good job at that. it used to be that the peak of violent extremist groups and militias in the united states was in 1996, and after the

oklahoma city bombing, fbi was very effective in infiltrating far-right groups and essentially disbanding them. >> barbara walter, thank you. >> my pleasure. >> the recent threats of civil war among radicalized trump supporters are not isolated. five years ago today, white supremacists and neo-nazis marched on charlottesville, virginia, in a violent demonstration. we visited the city to see what has changed and asked residents if they think the country has fully reckoned with what it witnessed that summer. a warning -- the story contains violent images that may be disturbing to some viewers. this is where i saw a group come by. they were all wearing white tops and khaki pants. >> on the morning of august 12, 2017, the only synagogue in the city had just finished it's a service. >> oh, there's the synagogue,

and they started yelling the traditional anti-semitic "blood and soil," "jews will not replace us." >> protesters gathered under the name unite the right. it quickly turned violent and ultimately fatal. one neo-nazi drove his car through a crowd of demonstrators, killing 32-year-old heather higher. residents are still looking for accountability, a process met with its and starts. >> our hope that we can move to an authentic healing by embracing truth. >> new city leadership including the first black female mayor and the creation of a police civilian oversight board was stymied. a lack of trust remains between law enforcement and the community. for the synagogue, it has meant new security. >> some of the unite the right

rally leaders were seen many times across the street watching the synagogue. as a result, we have had to fortify our synagogue, mostly in ways that are not obvious. >> did you have a guard before? >> no, we never had a guard before. >> there are mixed feelings on the city's progress. >> i had hoped that the unite the right rally would light a fire and urged charlottesville become modern, and i think we still have that hope, but i don't think we're there yet. >> the problems extend beyond the city according to an activist and professor at the university of virginia. >> people at charlottesville abandoned by the government at every level in the wake of the unite the right rally. we were not protected. >> has that trauma fully healed? >> no. no. >> juice will not replace us -- jews will not replace us! >> the chaos on the 12th was no

surprise to many. even as the violence and former trump to fire's response stunned the nation. >> but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. >> the people of charlottesville are still grappling with the trauma of august 12 and with that entire summer. they call it the summer of hate, and where i'm standing is where neo-nazis and white supremacists rched. trump's response in the violence is what ultimately catalyzed joe biden to run for president. >> charlottesville, virginia, in that moment i knew the threat to this nation was unlike any i had ever seen in my lifetime. >> charlottesville, the first word in president biden's announcement video, a rallying cry on the campaign trail, and a promise in his inaugural address. >> now a rise in political extremism, white supremacy, domestic terrorism, that we must confront, and we will defeat. >> in a city that voted for him

by more than 70 points, residents we talked to want to see more. >> could not tell you what in particular he has done, what decisive actions he has taken. >> if someone is going to kind of attach their name to charlottesville, this attack on charlottesville is what inspired them, i would like them to listen to some of the goals that our community has articulated in the aftermath of unite the right. >> he stepped into a non-undoable -- into an almost undoable job. but there's nothing he can do about that. it has to come out of congress. >> the biden administration did produce the first ever domestic strategy to counter domestic terrorism, but i will say that since then -- that's 14 months ago -- we've seen almost nothing in terms of implementation. >> on steps forward in terms of action, are there policies president biden has not pursued

that you think would make a difference? >> not for his national strategy. the administration suggested and said there would be efforts to reach out to the department of education to help implement services t a broader array of actors. that may be happening behind the scenes, but we have not seen any of that happened yet. >> the white house says they are looking at agencies, pointing to a new mental health hotline with tactics to address threats of violence. bipartisan legislation on hate crimes reporting and a team focused on domestic terrorism at the national security council. president biden often references charlottesville in speeches, as he did when visiting buffalo, new york, this spring after a shooter motivated by racism killed 10 people. >> when i saw those people coming out of the wood in charlottesville, carrying torches, shouting "you will not replace us" -- >> is in your advisor said the president thinks about charlottesville every day. he told me one of the most

important roles the president plays is a constant and forceful and vigilant voice against extremism and rights of privacy and the voices of hate in the country. even as some of the groups behind unite the right decne, the racist right replacement theory that inspired them flourished. on january 6, 2021, some of the same people who marched in downtown charlottesville stormed the united states capital. >> in charlottesville, these groups on the right tried to unite, but they failed, but on january 6, they did show that if you get white supremacists and militia groups and cue supporters and conspiracy theorists and ordinary trump voters together on the lowest common denominator, which was election disinformation, they could have a successful violent action. >> to those in crlottesville, the parallels were unmistakable. do you see a direct line from the neo-nazi march an attack on charlottesville to january 6?

>> absolutely. absolutely. >> ultimately, schmidt is not looking to the white house for leadership. her focus is local. >> our focus is not on our watch. >> that starts with honestly documenting what happen. at uva, schmidt helped install the no unityithout justice special exhibit. >> there are students coming in who now have no memory of this having occurred. >> on display, counter protesting guides and teargas canisters from encounters between police and activists. in response, uva made changes to the curriculum and agreed to pay the medical bills of people injured that summer in an amount equal to a 1921 pledge to the university by the kkk. [cheers and applause] many demands remain unfulfilled, but last year, the city fulfilled one commitment -- removing a statue of robert ely. diane showed us the walk from the park to the synagogue, a

reminder of what she saw august 12. >> it is a very different feeling here today right now compared to what it was. it just feels so peaceful now. >> an empty plot remains warily 's a once stood and the sitter -- remains where lee's statue once stood and the city contemplates what's next. ♪ judy: this past weekend, european, iranian, and american negotiators flew to vienna to see if they could once and for all come to an agreement over iran's nuclear program. the biden administration has been negotiating to reenter a deal from which the trump administration withdrew. we get updates on the talks and

information from the chief u.s. negotiator. >> the biden administration has argued the best way to prevent iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon is through diplomacy instead of from the trump administration policy known as maximum pressure. european and iranian negotiators have met in vienna for more than eight rounds with the u.s. participating indirectly to try to find an agreement with the u.s. and iran returning to compliance. the u.s. would live hundreds of sanctions the trump administration reimped when it withdrew from the deal in 2018 and iran wouldollback its nuclear program to the limits set by the original nuclear deal, including caps on enrichmentnd how much material it can stop auto. the europeans now say there is a final text on the table and discuss if that could lead -- and to discuss if that could lead to a deal, i'm joined by the u.s. special envoy for iran. welcome back to "the newshour." do you believe you have an agreement on the sanctions that

the u.s. would lift in exchan for the steps that iran would take in order to get back its nuclear program into compliance? >> there's no agreement because nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. there is a text. there's a clear sense about what the european coordinator thinks needs to be in the text, and our position has been clear from day one. we are prepared to come back into compliance with the nuclear deal if iran does the same. for us, it is clear what that means in terms of the sanctions we need to offer and the kind of steps iran needs to take to rollback its nuclear program. >> iran is asking for concessions outside the deal having to do with the international atomic energy agency's investigation into nuclear material found in iran, which the iaea says iran has not provided adequate explanations for. iran is asking for that

investigation to be lifted or somehow be solved. is the u.s. going to give any concessions when it comes to that investigation? >> know, and again, we have made this clear. our position is transparent and clear for everyone to hear, which is we are not going to put any pressure on the international atomic energy agency to close these outstanding issues. they will be closed when iran provides the technically credible answers that the iaea has requested of them. as soon as they do that, and as soon as the agency is satisfied, we will be satisfied, but not before. >> is there any kind of lyrical agreement perhaps -- not a technical agreement, but a political agreement -- that can be made in which this investigation into prior iranian steps could not prevent a deal you're talking about now? quickly think there's a safeguard toward understanding

nuclear sues that iran has to explain the presence of nuclear particles that have not been explained. really what the agency is interested in is not so much a prehistorical or historical exploration, what they want to know is where that is today and make sure it is accounted for and under what is called safeguards. that is what the agency is interested in. they need explanations for where these particles are and make sure they are under iaea safeguards. there's no shortcut. >> is the u.s. making any concession at all that would allow non-americans to do business with the islamic revolutionary guard and get around essentially u.s. sanctions? >> we would not. we have not and will not negotiate any lowering of our standards about what european or other countries need to do if they want to go into business with iran, they have to respect the sanctions. the sanctions are very well defined.

very clear standards have been put out about what due diligence they need to do. anyone claiming we will lower or negotiate those standards is just flat-out wrong. >> how much relief would iran get? one analysis that opposes you reentering the deal says iran would gain access to tens of millions of dollars of central bank assets that are currently frozen and be able to sell tens of billions of dollars more oil. >> are not going to give you a number because that would be highly speculative, but i can say there are assets that have been frozen, assets that iran collected at a time when sanctions were not in place that are now in bank accounts across the globe. they would be able to have access to those if they come back into compliance with the nuclear deal, and of course, they would be able to sell oil, which they are not able to do now, and get proceeds from the oil, but let's remember why those sanctions were put in place. they were put in place to get

iran to agree to curb its nuclear program and to make sure iran cannot acquire nuclear weapons, but we have lived the opposite the last several years, since president trump decided to withdraw from the deal. we have seen iran with an unconstrained nuclear program and with more aggressive regional behavior, so that experiment has failed. >> the constraints agreed to in the original 2015 deal include sunsets. one of the first major sunsets is in 2023, after which they would be allowed to manufacture advanced centrifuges. why is the deal still worth it today, even though when that -- even though the sunset is only a year away. >> that is not precisely what happens in 2023. they can do more research on development, but the main constraints, which is a constraint that puts iran several months away from having enough visit material for having one bomb, that would last until

2041. the situation we are in today as a result of the decision to withdraw from the deal is iran is only a handful of weeks away from having enough fissile material for a bomb. we have to compare this to the reality we are living in today. if you could get a deal that would put iran back several months away from being able to have enough fissile material for a bomb. >> europeans have said this is a final deal. is it? >> with the european union has said, and they are the coordinator, is that they believe negotiations over this text have exhausted their usefulness, and they don't see they can be improved to continue talks. we are continuing the text carefully to make sure it lives up to the president's very clear guidance that he would only sign up to a deal that is consistent with u.s. national security interests. >> and number of the islamic revolutionary guard corps was charged with plotting to assassinate former national security advisor john bolton. is the threat of iranian attempts to assassinate former

senior officials for the assassination of qasem soleimani -- is that threat ongoing, and do you fear it will last for a while? >> i'm not going to comment on the work the department of justice has done. i think it speaks for itself. i would repeat what the secretary of state and national security advisor have said, which is that this president will be relentless in protecting americans, if they are in or out of uniform, if they are current or former officials, and i think iran has gotten the message that if it threatens our citizens, we will respond decisively. >> thank. >> thank you. -- thank. >> thank you. -- thank you very much. >> thank you. judy: the press, politicians,

and the public are struggling to untangle and not of questions, new and old, following the unprecedented search of a former president's home earlier this week -- untangle a not -- untangle a knot of questions. hello to both of you. it is friday night. good to have you with us again. there's one story that is dominating the news today. jonathan, i'm going to start with you. i hardly know where to begin, but what do you make of this? the fbi carted off 11 boxes, we are learning, of various degrees of confidential material this week. >> my head is still spinning. not just any material, some of the material we now know from the earliest warrant at either classified markings, top-secret markings, or secretive,

compartmented information, which is probably the highest level of security intelligence documents there are. you can only read those in secure locations, and they are not meant to be taken out of those secure locations. i'm trying to look at this not from a partisan lens, not from my particular perspective as someone center and left, but as just an american, taking out the name of the person involved. we have just seen a former president of the united states be subpoenaed in june for documents, ignore the subpoena, the fbi gets a search warrant based on three aspects of the espionage act, they wait three days to execute it, they execute that search warrant against a former president of the united states, and now we are learning that some of the most sensitive

information a government official can have access to he had with him more than a year after being out of office at his private residence. judy: what should we make of that? >> under normal -- judy: i'm sorry. i start -- i thought you were stopping. >> under normal circumstances, we should not be in the situation. no president has done this. no president should do this, but donald trump did. >> when i first heard about it, i have to confess, my stomach sank. i wondered if the fbi understood the political firestorm they were about to set off. as the days have gone by, the gravity of what the department did and the justification for what they did have grown. at first we learn this is not a rash thing it has been months in the making. they did issue a subpoena. they have walked through this step i step. in the last few hours, we have learned that if these documents

are top-secret document, people who know more about this than i, they say that's a really big deal. and one of the acts president is being investigated for is the espionage act. this is a serious act which could mean decades in prison for a normal human being. there are others like the potential falsification and mutilation of documents. these are not small crimes. these are major criminal, if they get to it, accusations. if you have that kind of crime and you are a law enforcement officer, you got to do this. judy: how much of this depends on what is inhose documents? how secret, how confidential, how explosive that material was? >> i think that gradation depends on what potential charges could come down the road, but we are still talking about documents that should ver have left the white house,

should be in the possession of the national archives because they are the official custodian of presidential records. there are laws to ensure that those records go to the national archives. no president, no former president should have the documents that donald trump had before the fbi took them out of mar-a-lago. that is what we should be focused on, that, to my mind, yes, it matters what is in the documents. what is even more important is that he took them against statutes once he left the white house. i cannot express how serious this situation is, that the country finds itself in right now. judy: you started a minute ago i saying initially, you had the sinking feeling this could lead to sympathy, greater support for former president trump. how much is that still something that is a concern?

>> i do think both things are true. the fbi is probably right to do what they did. this will help trump. it helps donald trump in a number of ways. a lot of his potential primary opponents have been saying off the record their campaigns now have the air taken out of their sales. a couple months ago, a handful of republicans were saying they want to move on. now in the last week at least and maybe short-term, the whole party is rallying around donald trump. 80% of republicans say they are more motivated because of what they call this raid. the vast majority are saying this is not an impartial investigation. this is a political hack job. a handful of americans believe that. so you get this situation where people are rallying around trump. here is where i get to the nightmare scenario -- what

happens if in a couple years, a year or two from now, donald trump is cruising to a republican nomination, winning primary after primary, and he gets convicted of something? what happens if a year and a half from now, the american public decides he's going to be elected president, and the american legal system decides oh, no, he's going to prison? what happens then to our country? i assume he has to be arrested and have to country will erupt in rage and political violence. the presupposition is we live in a society where there is incredibly low social trust. people do not trust the institutions. and b, in a normal party, your candidacy is hurt if you are investigated by the fbi. that is not the current of the republican party right now. you can see down the road where our legal system, where our political system crashes and society is disrupted.

judy: it is not even having a charge leveled against the former president. just this week, this man went after the fbi in cincinnati. he was later killed. he was somebody involved in january 6. he's a very, very strong trump believer. how much do you think the former president is helped by this politically, and how worried are you about it leading to something else? >> donald trump is absolutely helped by this. the people who believe in donald trump and love donald trump will believe everything that he says and believe that anything that is done "against him" is persecuting him and therefore persecuting them. i do not think that fear of potential violence are fear of whatever political benefit could come to donald trump should factor into the wheels of justice turning. he cannot be allowed to be above

the law, and if the justice department or the wheels of justice were to cower in the face of the potential of benefiting him, then our democracy is lost. he must be held accountable just like anyone else potentially accused or investigated, tried for or found guilty of the things that we are talking about right now. just because he was a former president of the united states does not mean he is above the law, and let's say that crash happens that david is talking about and he is elected, but he is convicted. well, he will not be president of the united states. i just -- judy, david, i am so concerned about where we are right now because we are in uncharted territory.

we don't know what the charges are going to be, what the real impact is going to be. i do agree with david, however, that anything that happens negative fro trump and trump supporters' perspective is going to lead to things that i don't think we are prepared for, but we must get prepared for it because our democracy is on the line. judy: should any of this worry about what this could lead to affect the judicial process in your mind? >> yeah, absolutely. we are all responsible for the consequence of your actions, and prosecutors and investigators use discretion every single day. if they are indicting a candidate for every major party, my own personal opinion is the bar should be pretty high. a, it is a very serious crime and b, it is a crystal clear case that the whole country can see. experts over even the last few

hours have talked about what donald trump may have done with these documents probably clears the bar. you just cannot ignore the society around you. you cannot ignore a society that is in perilously close danger of rupturing. does that determine what you do? do you let someone get away with a major crime? obviously not, and none of us can be blind to the consequent us of our actions. judy: what about that? >> i don't disagree. i do think that the facts as we know them now in terms of that fbi search, that that high bar was there -- the justice department cleared those bars and then some because they understood the consequences of what they are going to do and the public reaction, knowing that the subpoena was issued in june and ignored, that they got

the search warrant three days before it was executed. that, to me, says that the justice department and those people are exercising extreme caution and care. judy: just a little bit of time left, but i want to ask you both about more election results this week. it is the election deniers who are doing well in so many of these primary contests and in race after race, they seem to be the folks donald trump has endorsed. >> i would say in some areas we have had a mixed bag, but some areas, trump people more or less swept the field. progressives did pretty well. so i would say the overall story from all these primaries so far is increased polarization. judy: less than a minute. what does this set up november to look like? >> a while november, but the

thing i'm looking at is we now have five republican gubernatorial candidates across the country who arelection deniers. arizona, wisconsin, michigan, illinois, maryland,nd pennsylvania. any of them, if they actually become governor of their paicular state, the 2024 presidential election is in deep trouble. judy: well, on this light note we are ending on on this friday -- >> another sober week in politics. judy: thank you. thank you both. >> thanks, judy. judy: and on "the newshour," as we wrap up the program, online right now, the inflation reduction act could reshape the energy landscape in the u.s. you could read more about how it aims to put more fossil fuel alternatives within reach for consumers and for the industry at large. that is on our website, pbs.org

/newshour. and don't forget to join yamiche alcindor and her "washington week" panel for more analysis on the mar-a-lago search and the 18-month investigation into the trump administration's family separation policy. and tune in on saturday to see how one teenage afghan refugee who fled the taliban last year is pursuing her dream to be a musician. that is "the newshour" for tonight. i'm judy woodruff. for all of us, thank you, please stay safe, and we will see you soon. >> major funding for the "pbs newshour" has been provided by -- ♪

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♪ hello, and welcome to "amanpour & company." here's what's coming up. >> we're seeing some signs that inflation may beginning to moderate. >> good news on inflation a legislative streak and the price of gas is down. but will to make any difference for democrats come the midterms? i ask patrick gaspard, the president of the center of american progress. then, inside the mind of russian president vladimir putin. author phil mickelson talks about h revelatory new biography. >> also ahead, the latest from kenya's nail-biting presidential election. >> plus -- >> the legislatures in a number of american states no longer reflect the wil of the people. >> are america's state legislatures tore rching democracy? "the new yorker's" jane mayer