amna: good evening and welcome. i'm amna nawaz. judy woodruff is away. on the newshour tonight, economic pain ahead. chairman jerome powell signals the federal reserve will keep raising interest rates to fight inflation, even if it causes some americans to lose their jobs. then, trump investigations. the redacted affidavit behind an fbi search at former president trump's florida home is released. whatt does and doesn't reveal about the case. and one year on. afghanistan sinks deeper into an economic and humanitarian crisis as international sanctions against the taliban government take a heavy toll on civilians. >> there are some very difficult conversations to be had around afghanistan. as i said last year, i think we

need to avoid collective punishment. amna: all that and more on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the "pbs newshour" has been provided by -- >> pediatric surgeon, volunteer, topiary tist. a raymond james financial advisor tailors advice to help you live your life. life well planned. >> and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. and friends of the "newshour." >> the john s and james all night foundation. more at kf.org.

♪ >> and friends of the newshour. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting, and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. amna: the chairman of the federal reserve delivered a stark message today on the long fight ahead against inflation. jay powell warned that more interest rate hikes are coming and said they'reoing to take a toll. stocks dropped sharply after his comments. william brangham has the details. william: that's right, amna. with inflation still at a 40-year high, chairman powell today pledged that the central bank is not backing down on its

campaign to curb inflation. powell spoke at the fed's annual economic symposium in jackson hole, wyoming, and for a fed chairman, he was pretty direct. >> while higher interest rates, slower growth, and softer labor market conditions will bring down inflation, they will also bring some pain to households and businesses. these are the unfortunate costs of reducing inflation. but a failure to restore price stability would mean far greater pain. william: those comments clearly rattled the markets, triggering a sharp selloff. the dow jones industrial average plunged 1008 points to close at 32,283, down 3%. the nasdaq fell 497 points, about 4%. and the s&p 500 shed 141, 3%. to help put this all into perspective, i'm joined again by david wessel.

he's the director of the hutchins center on fiscal and monetary policy at the brookings institution. david, great to have you back on the newshour. prty strong message from powell today. we are not going to stop this fight, meaning interest rates are not coming down anytime soon. were you surprised at what he had to say today? david: i was not surprised by the basic message, but the tone was very sharp. the chairman said he was going to be direct, and he was. his speech was shorter than the ones he has given in the past. and i think he was trying to send a strong signal that fighting inflation is their top priority. it means unemployment probably will get worse, and that is not going to shake them from their resolve. william: i want to get to that in a moment. but the sharp selloff we saw in the market today indicates that the market did not seem to think this is the tack that powell was going to take. david: it is always hard to

explain what the market does on a given day. who knows, monday the market may be up. there has been a disconnect between the market and the fed. the market have been thinking that the fed is basically winning the war, the economy is slowing, they are going to raise rates again this year, but by next year they will be cutting them. powell sent a very strong message. we are not going to be cutting rates next year. we are going to raise rates and keep them high until we have really rung inflation out of the economy. william: maybe cell phone -- maybe self-evident to economists, but walk us through with that could mean. powell mentioned that word a few times, which is always hair-raising when a fed chief mentions that. what does this mean for average consumers? david: you have to give jay powell some credit. he is not pretending this is all going to be easy. some politicians and central bankers do pretend. what he is saying is we are going to raise interest rates. we know that will make it harder for businesses and consumers to borrow.

they will spend less, and if they spend less, some people are going to lose their jobs. that is basically what he is saying. he is saying, i know that sounds bad. and he didn't say this, but maybe we should have acted earlier. remember, when you're ago, he gave a speech telling us why we didn't have to worry about inflation. but his case is, if we take a little pain now, we can avoid more pain down the road. william: meaning inflation, if left unchecked, gets worse and/or becomes locked in place. david: then the fed will raise interest rates a lot as it did in the early 1980's, ande will have a really deep recession. inflation has eased a little bit. the measure that the fed watches did not increase at all from june to july, which i a good sign, and he mentioned that. but he says that is not enough. the fed is opening that inflation will come -- the fed is opening inflation will come down as the supply chains kinks are worked out.

that will squelch demand enough to have what they call a soft landing. the economy will slow, unemployment will go up a little bit, but it will not be a recession. but he is not promising that. william: we have seen some decent inflation news and other encouraging growth on durable goods and job claims. for someone who is not terribly well versed in the economy more broadly, where is this economy? are we in trouble or are things looking up? david: things are really confusing. one economist says if you are not confused, you are not paying attention. the job market has been exerted and strong. hundreds of thousands of new jobs each month. the unemployment rate is still very low. and we have this high inflation rate. there are some signs the economy is slowing. according to recent estimates, the economy contracted in the first couple of quarters. basically what is happening is the economy is running a little bit out of steam and we expect

that job growth will not continue. we expect that unemployment will go up and we expect that means consumers, some of whom are squeezed because their wages are not going up as much as prices are going up, will spend last, and that will -- will spend less, and that will gradually slow the economy. he talked about growth that is not so slow that we have a recession. william: do you expect a half inch, quarter-point? [laughter] david: have a point, quarter-point. i don't really know. there is a lot of speculation about whether they will raise rates another half percentage point or three quarters of a percentage point. the markets today concluded based on jay powell's adverbs that three quarters is more likely. but we will get inflation numbers and jobs numbers between now and the september meeting. what really matters is how far they will take rates up.

both the fed and financial markets are expecting another full percentage point of rate increases before the end of 2022. the disagreement is, what happens after that? william: david wessel, thank you so much. david: you're welcome. ♪ amna: in the day's other news, an affidavit supporting the august search of the trump estate in florida was made public, at least partially. the u.s. justice department released a heavily redacted copy of the 32-page document. among other things, it says 14 boxes of material taken from mar-a-lago in a previous search had contained classified material. the fbi used that finding to obtain the warrant for the second search. we will return to this issue right after the news summary. moderna announced today it's suing pfizer and biontech, accusing them of copying its technology for their covid vaccine. the suit alleges moderna's

rivals infringed on patents protecting the so-called mrna technology. in response, pfizer said its vaccine is based on its own work. in ukraine, workers at europe's largest nuclear power plant began reconnecting to the power grid today. shelling disrupted the power flow at the zaporizhzhia plant on thursday, and there were reports of further shelling overnight. less than 30 miles away, in the city of zaporizhzhia, residents said today they're worried about a potential nuclear disaster. >> there are fears the ukrainian authorities won't be able to warn us of the radiation in time, or that we won't respond to it in the right way. or that there will be a widespread psychosis among the locals, which could cause mass panic. amna: officials in that area began distributing iodine tablets today. those can help block the human thyroid gland from absorbing radioactive iodine. energy regulators in britain say the war in ukraine means another

big jump in energy costs is coming. the uk's energy regulator projected today that, starting in october, annual costs will go up 80% from a year ago. the problem is driven by the soaring price of wholesale natural gas, as russia cuts supplies to europe. the prime minister of pakistan, shehbaz sharif, appealed today for international help after catastrophic flooding. monsoon rains started a month early this year and triggered floods that have killed more than 900 pakistanis since mid-june. the deluge has also destroyed 170,000 homes and inundated roads, leaving thousands of people marooned. the country is now under a state of emergency. back in this country, the epa has proposed designating two soalled forever chemicals as hazardous substances. they're known as pfas compounds and have been linked to cancer. they've largely been phased out, but still show up in drinking water and do not degrade over time. the epa says today's move would

allow quicker cleanup of contaminated sites. still to come on the newshour, senator john thune explains why he opposes the president's student loan forgiveness plan. david brooks and ruth marcus weigh in on the investigations surrounding donald trump. climate change threatens the survival of an iconic cactus in the southwest. plus, much more. ♪ >> this is the "pbs newshour" from weta studios in washington, and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. amna: as we reported, the justice department released part of the reasoning behind this month's fbi search of mar-a-lago. john yang has a closer look at what the redacted affidavit does and does not reveal about the investigation. john: amna, the 32-page document contains some new details about what triggered the fbi search. the national archives had been

asking president trump about missing presidential papers since may 2021, just four months after he left the white house. among the papers he returned in january, 184 classified documents, loose and mixed in with other papers. but there were also plenty of pages like this, 11 entirely blacked out. 13 others partly blacked out. we are joined again by attorney mark zaid, who focuses on national security issues. mark, we talked last night before this release. you read the redacted version of this affidavit today. what was the most significant information to you? mark: one thing, i agree, this is what we expected it to look like, which is unusual because we never preindictment get these types of documents. but what jumped out to me as the most important or the designations of some of the

markings that had not previously been stated, we knew from the receipt of property, documents that were seized by the fbi, in what was called sci, sensitive compartment information. we usually hear that with ts-sci, top-secret. but we received information about additional special access programs and type of designations. special intelligence, or s.i., human control system, hcs. fisa, foreign intelligence surveillance act. documents or information that came as a result of a warrant authorized by the special fisa court. this is some of the most sensitive information that exists in the u.s. government and i daresay could potentially put liveat risk. john: as you read this document, do you think there is any indication that this is headed toward a criminal prosecution,

whether of trump or someone else? or are they just satisfied to get these documents secured again? mark: the first thing is, as part of the documents that were filed by the justice department along with releasing the affidavit, was an indication they are still in their infancy of investigating what took place, especially in the aftermath. if this were just about -- let's say if we went back a few months and this was only about receiving and retrieving the documents and there were no allegations of obstruction or possibly lying to federal authorities, i think it would have ended. but because of what led to this affidavit being submitted to the magistrate judge in the first place, actual allegations of obstruction and possible destruction of documents, i think we are more likely to look towards possible criminality. who that applies to is completely still unclear. there is nothing in what we

received today that would indicate that president trump individually is more or less likely to be prosecuted, but i daresay i think someone -- we don't know who -- is pbably a little bit more nervous today. john: as you and i both mentioned, a lot of pages were blacked out, a lot of things were redacted. given where they were and what preceded those sections, is there any way to glean what might be behind those black lines? mark: i think it is pretty obvious for a large part of it. it refers to the source of information that the fbi relied on, human sources, and performance. who that might be, we have no idea. there is no indication to try and figure that out, if it was a secret service agent, staffer, former white house official. i daresay, even a lawyer for trump who might be fulfilling their ethical duty if they came about information where they knew individuals were

lying to the fbi. i think the key trigger with the dates. in may, when the back and forth with the archives came about, following the 15 boxes which had increased from 12 a few months earlier, something new happened that gave the fbi and the department of justice evidence to show that what they were being told by the lawyers wasn't true, and that is what led to the seizure of the documents in august. john: you talked about the markings on these documents, some of the most sensitive information. what sorts of topics, given your experience, what sort of topics would have these markings? mark: i get cleared up to these levels rarely but sometimes in some of my cases. these are incredibly protected areas. so fisa, foreign intelligence surveillance court, this is the

court that authorizes warrants and surveillance of foreign agents and americans who are potentially spying for foreign powers. the human information our human intelligence, assets we might have around the world operating to help protect us where their very identity or identifying information could cause their lives to be lost or their family, depending on where they might be. of course, we do not know, and i don't want to suggest otherwise, that the documents that have these markings reveal something that could be devastating. but by their markings, that is what it is meant to signify. and we may never find out, quite frankly, what was in these documents. but at some point in time, if prosecution does move forward, we will have a better idea at

least based on the documents that they cite in the indictment. john: national security lawyer mark zey, thank you very much. mark: thank you. ♪ amna: president biden's plan to cancel thousands of dollars in student loan debt for millions of borrowers has raised criticism from the republican ranks. many have called the plan unfair, and believe it could worsen inflation and does little to address the rising cost of college. south dakota senator john thune, the second ranking republican in the senate, is among those with concerns. he joins me now. senator thune, welcome back to the newshour. thank you so much for joining us. is it fair to say your biggest concern with this plan seems to be it sends the wrong message, that it's unfair for people who never went to college, who don't carry any debt? is that a fair characterization? sen. thune: i think it is, and i believe it is fundamentally unfair.

particularly, if you think about all those americans out there and those families, many of whom never had the opportunity to go to college, or those who did and paid their loans down already, paid them back or their parents, pinched pennies and made it possible for them to get through college. and now, you're asking them essentially to pay a half a trillion, or there's some estimates up to a trillion dollars really to forgive all the loans of these people out there who currently have loans. and it just on so many levels, this just seems fundamentally wrong, fundamentally unfair to those that are going to be paying the freight. and i think a really bad precedent going forward. amna: you know, one of the one of the things we hear from backers is that some of the same folks that you're expressing concerns about will actually be helped by this. working class families, low income families. we know those making under $60,000 a year will get the most relief from this plan. does that allay any of your concerns? sen. thune: well, there are some who will get some benefit from

it, no question about it. but just think of the number of families out there who are going to be paying for it. there are 13% of people in this country who have some form of student debt. that means there are 87% of the american people who don't. they're going to be paying for it in the form of higher inflation. and then, ultimately in the form of higher taxes or passing the debt down to our kids and our grandkids. amna: let me ask you about the inflation question in a moment. but first, you know, the white house in response to your criticism and others that this is unfair. i should mention even some democrats have expressed that concer they' taken to twitter. they have listed many, many republicans there who they say have also argued this is unfair. people who also had tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in ppp loans forgiven. so i'm asking you now, what's the difference? sen. thune: well, there's a huge difference. the ppp loan was approved by congress on a huge bipartisan vote. in fact, the vote in the senate

was 96-0. this is an executive action that nobody's had any input into. and the ppp loans were designed to help the very people that you're talking about. it was workers. one of the conditions for ppp loans for businesses to get them because they had to use those loans, the proceeds of those loans to retain and keep employees working during the pandemic. it was designed to help working americans. that was the whole design and purpose behind the ppp. so that's a really ridiculous comparison. i hope they have a better one. amna: so let me just put this to you, because there are millions of student borrowers who were victims of predatory lending, who graduated in the global financial crisis, who live in a country ere wages have stagnated. fundamentally, shouldn't they get some kind of relief or circumstances not of their own making? sen. thune: there are a lot of people who have just in the last three years, there has been a moratorium on repayment. so people have had leniency. amna: to be fair, senator,

moratorium is not the same as canceling or forgiving the debt, right? sen. thune: no, it's not. but what you were pointing out is when people have difficult circumstances. i granted, the pandemic was a difficult circumstance. the extending of that moratorium now for three years has cost about $100 billion. what they are talking about is up to $1 trillion to cancel that debt. and again, at some point, people need to have better decision-making, better judgment, hopefully better advice when they are taking out these loans in the first place. i am not suggesting for a minute there might not be lender supreme people -- who prey on people. those who didn't have the opportunity to go to college are going to be asked to make the payments to cover the cost of that for those who did. amna: you mentioned your concerns about inflation. here is what goldman sachs had to say about the president's plan. they say debt forgiveness that lowers monthly claimants is sligly inflationary in isolation, but the resumption of

payments, which is part of the president's plan, is likely to more than offset this. given that, if it is not likely to have ch of an impact on inflation but could potentially help millions of americans, isn't it worth it? sen. thune: let me ask you a question. if you just saw all these people have a lot of their debt wiped out, you're talking about a resumption of payments, do you think anybody is going to start paying down their college loans? they are going to assume this is a policy that is going to be extended. amna: again, that is not part of the plan. sen. thune: you are talking about -- i know it is not part of the plan. i am telling you, once you start doing this, it is going to be hard to put the genie back in the bottle. what i am suggesting is if you play this out and think about the fact that you are dropping half $1 trillion to a trillion dollars back into the economy, there are different studies out there, there are a lot of liberal economists who have suggested this will be inflationary, not only just in the general inflationary sense,

but also certainly inflationary when it comes to college tuition. i think there are going to be some real consequences to this that are going to be felt mostly people who don't get the benefit from it. and clearly, there are going to be those who benefit. there is no question about that. but to me, it is very clearly a transparent move by the administration to try and curry favor with a constituency that they hope will support them this election year. amna: while we have you, i need to ask you about some news today. we saw the release of that redacted affidavit that laid out the reasoning behind the fbi search at former president trump's mar-a-lago estate. knowing now what we know about the number of classified top secret documents he had, the type of documents, how they were kept, are you comfortable with how mr. trump handled those documents? sen. thune: i think that's going to be -- there is a legal process now. a decision is going to be made by the justice department. the fbi, the folks who are involved in that. amna: yes, sir, but from your perspectiv are you comfortable

with it? sen. thune: my view is those types of documents, classified, highly classified, very sensitive, national security related, need to be secured. and there is no question about that. but i also believe that this was an unprecedented move by the fbi and the justice department, which they need to be fully transparent about why they did it. i know the redacted affidavit gives a little information or insight into that. but at the end of the day, there is a lot of mistrust out there among the american people because they have suspicions this may have been done for political reons. and i think the justice department has got a responsibility to be accountable to this and to be as transparent as possible. amna: if i may, i also want to get you as a leader of your party to weigh in on this. we have seen a number of results across primary elections across the country, and there have been a number of so-called election deniers, people who are running on the lie that the 2020

election was stolen, and have been winning republican primaries. does that worry you? sen. thune: i think if people build their campaigns around relitigating the 2020 election, they are going to have a hard time getting across. the 2020 election is over. the 2022 election is right in front of us. i think all candidates ought to be making their arguments to their voters and their districts or their states about what they want to do if elected. amna more broadly speaking, these are people who are delivering antidemocratic messages. they are talking about they would have ignored the vote and run out the results of the election. are you comfortable with that? sen. thune: that may have been a decision that they and their campaign are making. no, i'm not comfortable with it. i am up for reelection this year. that is not what i will be talking about. i will be talking about the issues that are relevant today and for the people of south dakota and the people of this

country. and i would hope that all candidates on our side of the aisle would do the same. but again, each campaign is going to make their own decisions, and we will see how it turns out. amna: senator john thune, second ranking republican in the senate joining us tonight. thank you for your time. always good to have you. sen. thune: thanks, amna. amna: afghanistan has been a country in chaos since the u.s. withdrawal last august. one year on, nearly half of its people are facing hunger. six million of them are at risk of famine. the freeze on assets and international sanctions have crippled the afghan economy. health centers are overburdened, children are malnourished, and doctors are helpless. special corespondent jane ferguson has the story. jane: the crowds gathering outside kabul's bakeries grow daily. they are hungry and desperate,

waiting in the rain for some compassion, staring at the fresh bread. local people who have some money and will to share buy food for the bakery staff to hand out. it's a drop in an ocean of need. the united nations is currently feeding half the population of afghanistan, 20 million people. >> six million of them are what we call one step away from famine-like conditions. six million people. that's more than the population of ireland, where i'm from. jane: mary-ellen mcgarty is the un's world food program country director in afghanistan. afghanistan's economy continues to falter, one year after the u.s. withdrawal and taliban takeover. mass unemployment followed the collapse of the afghan government last august. any savings are now long gone. >> it's the urban population, as you say. the middle class, right, the teachers, the civil servants. i have gone out into towns and

cities, and that's what i meet. people who have never stood in a line for humanitarian assistance of any sort over decades of conflict, and now find themselves -- they used to have a job. all they want is their job back. jane: international sanctions and a freezing of the assets of afghanistan's central bank make it near impossible for the economy to function normally. the country is run by an internationally-recognized terrorist group, making its economy the victim of counter-terror restrictions. those still with savings cannot access them, and sending money to the country from abroad remains tough. added to this, food price rises are making it harder for families to buy enough food. >> you know, now for the second month in a row, we have had to increase the cash amount that we are distributing to factor in price increases by 10%. two months in a row, it's 20%.

and then, we are also having delays in the supply chain as well, so there is a knock-on effect of ukraine in afghanistan, both in food and fuel prices. jane: it's here where the results of those increases can be seen. kabul's indira ghandi children's hospital. bed after bed is filled with malnourished, sick children. this six-month-old boy has malnutrition that causes bloating. his grandmother razema says his father has no work and they cannot afford baby formula. so, like many other poor families, they fed the baby cow's milk. >> the problem is these families are poor, so they buy very low quality milk, which the children can't properly digest. and so, the children have diarrhea, and that eventually leads to malnutrition. jane: nurse atefa kazemi and her colleagues can treat these children, but they cannot help the families buy food. so the children they help return, needing their care again.

>> after one month, we release them. but since they still can't afford the good milk, they go back to the low quality milk, and again, the children get diarrhea. and within 10 days, they are once again severely malnourished and they have to be re-admitted to the hospital. so many of our patients right now are on their second or third time at the hospital for treatment. jane: afghans have innovated to help get more aid directly to families who need it. an afghan american e-commerce startup called aseel pivoted as soon as the crisis hit a year ago, and now helps the diaspora abroad and any individual donor online send food and emergency aid to families in kabul directly. their team hires local drivers to deliver packages of baby formula, food, and basic medical supplies in over 30 provinces. ihsan hassan oversees the emergency response team in kabul. >> if we have a package for 200

families, but you will see there are more than 1000 families gathered there. and they are asking for the food packages. they are in great need. jane: the need will only continue until afghanistan's economy is able to function in the global community. that will depend on politicians and diplomats, and the taliban. >> there are some very difficult conversations to be had around afghanistan. as i said last year, i think we need to avoid collective punishment. jane: one year on since the collapse of the afghan state, the international community is no closer to figuring out how to help afghans economically without empowering the taliban's hardliners. until they do, millions will be forced to wait, hungry and running out of options. for the pbs newshour, i'm jane ferguson.

amna: with the new revelations relating to the fbi search of mar-a-lago, president biden's decision to cancel some student debt, and primary elections held earlier this week, there is much to discuss with brooks and marcus. that's new york times columnist david brooks, and ruth marcus, deputy editorial page editor for the washington post. jonathan capehart is away. so glad to have both of you here. let's start with the news of that released redacted affidavit. we have been highly anticipating this. a lot of build up to what we might see in this. what is your take away? did we learn anything meaningful? david: i learned that i wish i had a really good eraser to find out what is under that stuff. i don't think we learned massively. we learned that trump wrote on some documents. we got more details on how many there were. but my interest is migrated toward, what did he want to do with the stuff? usually when somebody is accused of may violating the espionage act, it is because they wanted

to commit espionage. did he want to distribute these documents? did he want to sell them? did he want to have them as souvenirs? trump world is a leaky world. it is possible some enterprising reporter will talk to somebody who can give detail on what they were doing and why he wanted them. amna: ruth, you heard the attorney say earlier what stood out to him were the markings on the documents. what was your reaction? ruth: my reaction fundamentally was donald trump told us he wanted to see the affidavit released in full, but notably his lawyers did not make that point to the judge, and for good reason. my take away is he is really lucky he did not get what he asked for. if and when we finally see this full affidavit, i think it will set our hair on fire. it cannot be. affidavits are not they are one-sided, not very positive or flattering to donald trump.

i was struck by a number of things, the miles of things that david wants to erase. there are a lot of facts we don't know. there is a 36 page affidavit. i was struck by the highly sensitive nature of these documents, both human intelligence and big nose intelligence, and -- and a signals intelligence, and i was particularly struck by these references to the threat of obstruction. this was not in the affidavit, but was in the supporting memo that the justice department filed. the government said it has " well-founded concerns that steps may be taken to frustrate or otherwise interfere with this investigation" if facts were prematurely disclosed. this is an extra ordinary thing for a department of justice to say about a former president of the united states. something happened here. we don't know it yet, but i think someday we will. amna: there is a lot we don't know, but there has also been a lot of talk that the search itself, the fbi going there, could have added, energized the

republican base, people who say this is part of our grievance, we are being targeted. knowing what we know now, the scope of the documents, how sensitive they were, do you think it has that same impact with republicans? david: yes. two things are true. it is probably very serious and there seems to have been obstruction and there is a reon the judge just a part -- the justice department was annoyed. trump's ratings are among republicans have gone up seven to 10 points. there was an interview by one of ron desantis's political come tilton -- political consultants. we don't see a path forward. for people who don't want donald trump to be president again, it is torn. maybe he committed a crime. he should pay for it. but on the other hand, it made it more likely he will get the nomination. once he gets the nomination, who knows what could happen? ruth: i do agree with it, but i have to say if attorney general merrick garland's chief concern

where the political fortunes of the democratic party, that would be a very bad thing. he has said he is no cowboy. he did this and i think it is becoming clearer every day since the search, he did not do this on a lark without supervising it, without being very clear, and without good reason, of which we know some but not a lot, to take this extraordinary step. in part because i am sure he understood how cataclysmic it would be. amna: at the same time, we saw big news with the details of president biden's student loan forgiveness plan coming out, getting a lot of mixed reaction. not strictly a partisan issue in terms of the criticism. just to tick through with that plan does entail for those following along, there is $10,000 of canceled that for those making less than $125,000 a year, $20,000 canceled for pell grant recipients, and payment because extension payment because extended to december 31 -- payment pause

extended to december 31. we heard senator thune say it will not help as many people and it is a political gift. do you agree with that? david: i am for political gifts. if you wanted to give that $20,000 debt forgiveness to kids who had pell grant, i would be on board for that. those communities of college graduates or those holding student debt is very diverse. some of it is poor kids who were first-generation. they did wha we wanted them to do, ■takea chance, invest i yourself, then life happened and they didn't graduate so they have debt and no degree, not much earning potential. forgiving the debt makes sense to me. forgiving the dead of somebody who comes from a family making 240 $9,000 makes no sense at all to me. this is too big, too broad, too litically designed, not economically designed. it underlines a problem with t democratic party. education is the primary divide in this country, with college

educated people, overwhelmingly democrats in school. the democrats have become good at feeding their base. part of their base happens to be upscale people. and they do it by trying to defend the state and local tax to duction.they do it with measures like this. they do it with zoning regulations. you cannot redistribute money and power upwards without paying a price from high school and middle class folks down the line. amna: it is worth reminding folks about some of the reactions we have seen, notably senator warren who has been fighting for me debt relief. at the same time, we have seen economists really worried about the impact. i want to remind folks about some of what they said this week. >> the president has done it the right way. sure, i wanted more and i will still fight for more. i think there is more good we could do. but there is concentration where it is needed the most. >> i thinkhis is a terrible policy for the point in time we are in as a country.

it is nearly half $1 trillion of gasoline being thrown on what is already an inflationary fire that we are dealing with. amna: bro you surprised to see the number of democrats who -- were you surpred to see the number of democrats who came out against it? ruth: no, because i am a member of the washington post editorial board. much more agreed with jason furman and a senator thune and david brooks than with senator warren. is the biden plan better than the warren plan? yes. is the biden plan better than the furman plan? no. it should be much more targeted. i would do it in a way that does not incentivize colleges in a way to raise tuition, that does not allow people like david children and my children to benefit from any loan forgiveness in a way that really concentrates. and i would think more broadly about something, which is if we have half a trillion dollars or

more to distribute among the most vulnerable and deserving members of society, are people who are investing in college degrees amar most of them going to get a good return on investment in those degrees really where we want to use that money? that would not be my choice. i am sorry to say that because i think this comes from a good place. it is just badly executed and does not consider our constrained resources. amna: i am sure you saw the response from the white house. i would call it unusually trolly. [laughter] going on twitter, listing the republicans who say this is unfair who also got their ppv loans forgiven. david: juvenile and another best moment. the ppp was designed to help people preserve jobs in the pandemic. they were not meant to be paid back. these college loans are things people sign promising to pay them back. sometimes life happens and sometimes we should help forgive debt that somebody who is trying to make it into the middle class.

but it is not an apt comparison. the biden white house has been classy. this was not that classy. if you're going to be unclassy, be smart about it. amna: good advice. before we go, i need t get your take on these primary results we have seen coming in over the last several months. when you look at a lot of attention paid to summa elections, like the special election in new york, what are your takeaways? ruth: i was here several weeks ago and i want to confess error because i was asked about the political impact of the supreme court's decision, overturning roe v. wade. at the time, i would like to say gas prices were much higher. so i think i thought that would be the inflation and gas prices would be the driving force for voters and we have seen a lot of talk about abortion being a motivating factor before. now, we don't have full data. we will know more in november.

but based around these special elections we have seen, including in new york for the 19th congressional district, people are angry, voters are angry. women voters are angry.they are registering, going to the polls as a political matter. this is a terrible decision. this is a disaster from my point of view for the country and for women, but for democrats in the short-term, it is looking like it will be much more of a boon than i amna: amna: thought it would be. amna: is that message doing more danger to republicans ahead? david: i don't think you were wrong. the evidence changed. [laughter] ruth: a much better way to put it. can we end on that note? [laughter] david: i am surprised how many voters are being registered. this was looking like six months ago like a big republican year, light republicans will outperform their districts by seven points. now it is looking like democrats are outperforming and a lot of these races, in upstate new york

and around the country. you are beginning to see in case after case where democrats are doing way better, and even retaining the house. it is hopeful. [laughter] at the same time, a lot of the democrats and moderates are doing well, especially in new york. moderates even beating aoc backed candidates. as the democrats do better, they seem to be getting more moderate, and the vibe of the party is less aoc than a used to be. amna: what does it say to you that democrats put up a former republican to challenge floor to governor ron desantis? david: that is another sign of the moderation. if you are voting for a former republican. amna: you are seeing the same trend? ruth: we will see if that works in florida. probably not. amna: we will see. david brooks, ruth marcus, always good to see you. thank you.

amna: an icon of the desert, the saguaro cactus, is being threatened by drought conditions and rising temperatures. our reporter stephanie sy ventured into the sonoran desert to see what those trends mean for ecosystems across the southwest. stephanie: on the edge of saguaro national park in tucson, arizona, maria francisco and tanisha tucker uphold a sacred tradition of the tohono o'odham tribe, harvesting fruit from the majestic saguaro, the largest cactus in the u.s, using an old saguaro rib as a gathering tool. they have only a few weeks each summer to do the picking before southern arizona's monsoon season spoils the fruit. >> the fruit that we cook and turn into syrup becomes wine. and that wine is then used for rain ceremonies. stephanie: the sacred tradition has remained the same, but the saguaros themselves are changing. for francisco, the first sign of this is the late ripening of the fruit.

>> when i used to come out here with my aunt stella, i would be out here like mid-may and she'd be out here mid-may. now, it's like mid-june. >> what we're concerned about is that we're seeing far fewer, very small saguaros. stephanie: in saguaro national park, which is brimming with the plants, biologist don swann says prolonged drought conditions and higher temperatures are increasing the mortality rate of young saguaros. >> the older they are, the more resilient they become to deeper and deeper droughts. so they're very resilient when they're, you know, 60 years old, but they're not very resilient when they're five years old. stephanie: a 2018 national park report showed that of the 10,000 saguaros studied within the park, just 70 were less than 15 years old. >> were trying to understand how changes in temperature and precipitation in the future might affect the reproductive potential of saguaros.

everything from how old they are, when they start reproducing, to how many flowers do they produce. stephanie: to do this, they fix a go-pro camera to what amounts to a very tall selfie-stick. in spring and summer, they regularly take pictures of the flowers that bloom on the tops of saguaro arms. when compared over time, the pictures document changes to the saguaro life cycle. the plant's flowers, which when pollinated produce the fruit, can give scientists key information about long-term impacts of climate change. but to swann, the saguaros are about more than science. >> for me, what's so wonderful about saguaros is really kind of the way that they move people. a lot of people who live here will tell you that one of the reasons they live here is because of this plant. stephanie: rising temperatures and drought aren't the only threats to the saguaro. invasive grass species like this compete for water, and also increase fire risk. >> we have this increase of non-native grasses, the grassification of the western united states and in many of the deserts.

and that drives a fire regime and introduces a fire regime to the desert that's pretty novel. you can see the burn mar on that one. stephanie: ben wilder is an ecologist, studying the long-term impact of fire damage on the sonoran desert ecosystem. remnants of the 2020 bighorn fire can still be found in the santa catalina mountains on tucson's perimeter. thousands of saguaros were killed in the blaze. >> it's eye opening in terms of what is the desert capacity for resilience in the face of fire. and that's truly an open question right now. stephanie: the saguaro is not the only western species under threat from the wildfires being fueled by climate change. within the mojave national preserve in california, an estimated 1.3 million joshua trees were killed in a 2020 wildfire. that same year, california wildfires killed approximately 10% of the world's giant sequoia trees. last year, another 5% were lost to additional wildfires in the

state. >> coming to grips with the massive loss that is happening is part of the ecological change that we're all within. stephanie: to counter the loss, the tucson audubon society is planting young saguaros, positioning them near so-called nurse plants, which act as shade and shields. jonathan horst says saguaros are a keystone species. >> we've got 14 species of birds, multiple species of bats, hundreds of species of insects. rodents, javelina, foxes, everything is chowing down on the fruits when they drop. without saguaros, in a lot of ways, giant pieces of the sonoran desert ecosystem just implode. stephanie: soon, thousands of these saguaros will be planted in southern arizona's santa catalina mountains as part of a larger restoration effort. >> those first two yrs, that's the most critical tablishment phase. then, the survival rate

significantly increases. stephanie: these imposing desert plants armored with spikes suddenly seem vulnerable. and to tanisha tucker and maria francisco, it is like watching a relative suffer. >> we have a relationship with them. so in our creation stories, we mention them, and we talk about them as being people and elders. stephanie: but they also talk about them as nature's survivors, whom they revere. after scraping the fruit out and savoring its sweetness, the empty pods are solemnly returned to the giver. >> as a native american, we're very resilient people. we always bounce back, and that's how i see these saguaros. they're going to adjust to climate change. stephanie: who and what can adjust is the biggest question facing not only the sonoran desert, but the whole planet. for the pbs newshour, i'm stephanie sy in tucson, arizona. amna: on the newshour online, a

growing number of people who aren't scientists by trade are helping advance federal research and our understanding of the world more broadly. learn more about citizen science and how you can participate on our website, pbs.org/newshour. for more on the revelations from the redacted affidavit justifying the search of mar-a-lago, and analysis of the intensifying battle for control of congress, don't forget to join moderator yamiche alcindor and her "washington week" panel. that's tonight on pbs. and tune in tomorrow to pbs news weekend with geoff bennett for a report on the challenges for americans with disabilities when traveling by a. here's a preview. >> on a saturday in early august, maggie and her service dog arrived at the minneapolis-st. paul international airport. air travel is not at the top of most people's list of

favorite things to do these days, and it is no different for maggie. >> flying is stressful. there's a lot of unknowns. >> i have had my wheelchair damaged. when i got to my next destination, it was broken. >> she has a neuromuscular disease called primary lateral sclerosis. luckily today, she and pastel are not flying anywhere. they are taking a practice run through the airport so both feel more prepared when there is a real trip. >> i have not flown for a long time. i wanted to see what was new because it takes away some of the stress when i actually go flying. >> it is all part of a program called navigating msp. amna: you can learn more and what type. ray tomorrow opbs news weekend. and that is the newshour for tonight. i'm amna nawaz. for all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you, and have a great weekend. >> major fundi for the "pbs newshour" has been pvided by -- ♪

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[intro music] - hello, everyone, and welcomto amanpour & co. here's what's coming up. - and i just hope that the rest of the world will keep on recognizing that what hong kong represents is really important and fundamental to all of us. - [christiane] as china marks 25 years since the handover of hong kong, britain's last governor there, chris patten, tells me why he thinks the west let hong kong down. then, ♪ how does it feel to be at the center of magic ♪ ♪ to linger in tones and words ♪ a young artist at the height of her powers, bianna golodryga speaks with indie rockstar and best selling author, michelle zauner of japanese breakfast. plus as extreme weather continues to wreak havoc around the world, professor kristie ebi tells ha sreenivasan how we can improve