♪ amna: good evening and welcome. i'm amna nawaz. geoff: and i'm geoff bennett. on the "newshour" tonight, the former ceo of starbucks faces congressional scrutiny over allegations of anti-union practices. amna: in the wake of the school shooting in nashville, parents once again grapple with how to speak with their children about gun violence. geoff: and 20 years on, we examine the long-lasting impact of the u.s. invasion of iraq and the ongoing debate about whether the war was justified. >> it's difficult to see that the united states and the middle east are better off. firstly, we remove the brutal, dangerous dictator, but they replaced him with chaos. ♪

>> major funding for the pbs "newshour" has been provided by -- ♪ >> moving our economy for 160 years. the engine that connects us. >> actually, you do not need vision to do most things in life. >> it is exciting to be part of a team driving technology forward. ♪ >> the walton family foundation.

working for solutions to protect water during climate change so people and nature can thrive together. supported by the foundation committed to building a more just and peaceful world. and with the ongoing support of these institutions. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. geoff: good evening and welcome to the "newshour." the former head of starbucks, howard schultz, went head-to-head with democrats on catol hill today in a tense hearing over efforts to unionize at the company he founded. amna: schultz's opposition to unions has long been public. but some lawmakers and labor

leaders allege that schultz has made union-busting moves that are illegal. schultz denied it forcefully. as congressional correspondent lisa desjardins reports, the hearing was a key moment in the battle over recent efforts to unionize. lisa: in one of the senate's largest committee rooms, packed with intensity. >> starbucks coffee company did not break the law. lisa: a confrontation over business, workers and american values as former starbucks ceo howard schultz faced a top critic vermont senator bernie , sanders. senator sanders: over the last 18 months, starbucks has waged the most aggressive and illegal union busting campaign in the modern htory of our country. that union busting campaign ha been led by howard schultz. lisa: the former ceo fought back, insisting his company is the worker-empowing place it claims to be, touting starbuck'' average wage per hour.

>> today baristas in our stores , earned on average $17.50, with benefits and other income included, such as 100% paid college tuition, the first of its kind in american business. lisa: but thousands of workers are demanding more. nearly 300 locations have voted to unionize since 2021. that is about 3% of the chain's u.s. stores. but so far, they are yet to sign a single contract. >> you are out of touch. unionbusting is disgusting. lisa: the national labor relations board has accused the company of hundreds of labor law violations denying raises and , other benefits from pro-union workers. in a buffalo, new york case earlier this month an , administrative judge found starbucks had used egregious and widespread misconduct in an effort involving 20 stores. but schultz insisted the company has never broken the law. >> we're innocent because we've done everything at we possibly can to respect the right under

the law of our partners ability to join a union. lisa: at least one other former employee testified otherwise. >> in i led a two day unfair july, labor practice strike and delivered our demands. a month late i was fired for supposedly being disruptive. i did not receive any write up or discipline and there was no investigation. lisa: the hearing was in part, rapid-fire grilling, led by sanders. senator sanders: were you ever informed of, or involved in a decision to discipline a worker in any way who was part of a , union organizing drive? >> i was not. senator sanders: have you ever threatened, coerced, or intimidated a worker for supporting a union? >> i have had conversations that could have been interpreted. you know, different way than i intended. lisa: but it was also a higher debate over who decides what is best for companies and workers. >> our preference is to maintain the direct relationship we've had with our employees that we call partners. >> you employ over 235,000

people, over 3000 in my home state of wisconsin, alone. you can't possibly have a direct relationship with all of them. lisa: it is a high-stakes and closely watched clash as efforts to unionize have taken shape at other companies including apple , and amazon. some republicans challenged unions in general including , former businessmen and utah senator mitt romney. >> profit, incentive and greed has been there from the beginning of humankind but , there's also a union greed. lisa: others tried to turn the table on committee chair sanders. >> you've been in office for 28 years and year wife has amassed a wealth of over $8 million. >> if i am worth $8 million, that is good news to me. all not aware of it. that is a lie. lisa: schultz, whose net worth is estimated at over $3 billion pie -- by forbes, respded to

criticism of being out of touch. >> this moniker of billionaire, let's get this out of the way, ok. i grew up in federally subsidized housing. my parents never owned a home. i came from nothing. lisa: but the question is where schultz and arbucks go now - as unions and, some in congress, keep up a loud push. for the pbs newshour, i'm lisa desjardins. ♪ geoff: in the day's other headlines. the u.s. senate moved to reclaim war-making powers for congress. the vote was 66-30, repealing apprals for the first gulf war, in 1991, and the invasion of iraq in 2002. the bipartisan support overcame opposition by some republicans for rescinding the authorizations for use of military force, or aumfs. >> the entire world has changed

dramatically since 2002, and it's time the laws the books catch up with those changes. these aumfs have outlived their use. these repeals will not harm our service members abroad, nor will it hinder our ability to keep americans safe. >> i don't support the repeal of the 2002 aumf at this time. this needs to be repealed, there's no question about it. it should be replaced by something and that is one of the real problems here because the debate to do that has been ongoing for as long as i've been here. geoff: it is unclear whether the republican-controlled house will support the repeal. in ukraine explosions knocked , out power today in russian occupied -- a major logistical hub in the south. ukraine's military did not directly claim responsibility. meantime, the head of the u.n. nuclear agency, rafael grossi, visited the nearby power plant for a safety assessment. he said the situation has worsened since he visited last september. pe francis has been

hospitalized in rome for a respiratory infection. the vatican says he does not have covid, but is having trouble breathing and needs several days of treatment. francis had greeted crowds at his weekly audience in saint peter's square before heading to the hospital. he is 86 years old. the u.s. and israel faced a rare public flare-up today over a court overhaul plan. president biden had urged prime minister benjamin netanyahu to drop the plan that's provoked crippling strikes and protests. netanyahu tweeted back that israel makes its decisions by the will of its people and not based on pressures from abroad. this afternoon, white house nation security spokesman john kirby played down the dispute, but urged compromise in israel. >> one of the great things that we share, our two countries share are some basic fundamental , democractic institutions and principles, and one of them is the broadest possible base of public support for major changes like this changes which affect , the system of checks and balances. geoff: for now, benjamin

netanyahu -- the u.n. general assembly is asking the world's top court to spell out what nations must do to fight climate change. an opinion from the international court of justice would not be binding, but supporters say it would encourage greater action. today's vote came on a resolution pushed by the pacific island nation of vanuatu. mexico's president vowed today to punish anyone responsible for the deaths of 38 migrants in a fire. it happened late monday in ciudad juarez -- across the border from el paso, texas -- when fire broke out at a detention center. surveillance camera video showed migrants burning their mattresses to protest being deported, but guards walked away without unlocking the cells, as the fire spread. >> [speaking spanish] >> to all of those people who died the guards could've opened , the gates to let the migrants out.

they din't open the gate, leaving them in. the guards didn't help the migrants because they didn't feel like it. the guards treat you badly. geoff: back in this country republican lawmakers in kentucky , enacted limits for transgender minors over the democratic governor's veto. the measure bans gender-affirming care for those under 18 and restricts which bathrooms they use. opponents have threatened court action against the law. the fda has approved the first over-the-counter sales of an opioid treatment drug. narcan nasal spray is a version of the life-saving drug naloxone that can reverse overdoses. today's fda action means narcan will be available without a prescription by late summer. and on wall street stocks , rallied as fears of bank troubles receded. the dow jones industrial average gained 23 points or 1% to close at 32,717. the nasdaq rose 1.8%.

the s&p 500 was up 1.4 percent. still to come, the health risks for pregnant women of color in rural parts of the u.s. north carolina becomes the latest state to expand medicaid. ♪ >> this is the pbs "newshour," from washington and from the west at t walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. amna: first lady dr. jill biden is attending a vigil in nashville tonight to honor and remember the six people killed in a mass shooting at the covenant school earlier this week. it's part of a citywide candlelight vigil. singers sheryl crow, margo price and ketch secor are performing as part of the event. once again parents and , caregivers around the country are considering how they want to talk to children about this attack and gun violence. some important perspective on all of that now from dr. tori

cordiano. she's a clinical psychologist specializing in children and adolescents who practices in ohio. welcome and thank you for joining us. after each one of the shootings, especially when children are killed, the question comes up, how should parents and caregiversalk to kids? what would you say about it? how was the conversation different depending on how all the children are? dr. cordiano: this is driven by a child's age and their developmental level. for younger children, you question how much cess they have to the news and they might not be aware so you might not need to have the conversation. for older elementary school children, if you hear they are likely to hear about it, you'll want to bring the conversation up. i like the idea with starting with, what have you heard about what happened in nashville? if they have not heard anything, you could start with, i want to tell you about something.

with older children, you can expect that if they have not already heard about it, they will hear about it in school. you will want to have the conversation at the outset so they can process it with you and they are not blindsided. it is also helpful to start with what they have heard and ask about what questions they have. the goal is to give them manageable, clear information but not give them details that can overwhelming or scary. you want to have a space where you can process this, think about it, talk about it with other people, have your own place to process your feelings. you could get emotional while talking with your children and that is ok. it is emotional, sad, scary and angering. but you also want to have a separate space where you can process your own feelings so your conversation with them can focus on caring with them. amna: mass shootings are now commonplace in america. there have been 130 so far this

year, alone. they do not even comprise the majority of gun violence in america, which disproportionately impacts children of color. is there a cupola to toll without exposure to violence that you worry about with children? dr. cordiano: absolutely. there is a toll that comes out in the form of trauma. we might see the generational effects of this. we might see it over the long-term. when children are exposed to violence, when it is happening around them, when it is part of their daily experience when they have survived these attacks or even if just this is part of their reality that they are hearing about these and worrying about this, it can take a toll and for some children it can lead to trauma and mental health issues. amna: this generation of children are regularly put through lockdown drills. every generation, you hear there is some version of a drill. there were nuclear attack drills

for some generations, tornado drills, fire drills, are these different? dr. cordiano: they are. it depends on the nature of the drill and how much they simulate an actual active shooter attack. ther is research being done that is important. we want to know from large samples of children what this experience is like. we want to balance the best ways to keep them safe without putting them in traumatic experiences. there is research being done on how best to conduct the drills so they do not create more trauma for children and more difficult experiences. amna: during the conversations with children, they are likely to ask, could it ever happened in my school, church, neighborhood or to me? the impulse among parents is to lie and say it will never happen to you. how you suggest parents handle that? dr. cordiano: it is important for parents to have their own place to process feelings.

parents want their kids to feel safe. our job as parents is to be a steady, sturdy presence. depending on the nature of the children's questions, you can remind them of the things that keep them safe in their school and the adults to keep them safe and remind them they can always talk with you and other trusted adults in their lives about questions they have or scary feelings. geoff: dr. -- amna: dr. cordiano, thank you for joining us. dr. cordiano: thank you. ♪ geoff: a newly released cdc report shows maternal deaths nearly doubled over three years, with over 1200 deaths in 2021. and in rural communities, maternal mortality is almost double urban rates stark

, a reminder of the struggle to acce maternal healthcare across much of the country. with support from the pulitzer center and in collaboration with the global health reporting center, stephanie sy reports from pickens county, alabama for our series rural rx. ,>> shaky cinderblock steps lead to the entrance of this trailer in a rural area of pickens county, alabama. inside, a mermaid and unicorn theme with a bed full of balloons is close enough to a dream. >> everyone knows unicorns are perfect. >> the single mom of two i making the best of things. her three month old baby seems as sleepy as a newborn. she was delivered prematurely, at 34 weeks, by emergency c-section. >> i have been depressed since i

had her. not having any transportation. she was in the nicu for 26 days. it was horrible. stephanie: you did have this car working. no transportation because the car in front of her trailer has been broken since she was four months pregnant and she cannot afford to fix it. public transportation is scarce in these parts. they discharged you in four days. how often were you able to see her? >> every time i could get a ride. once a week or every two weeks. it is horrible. i used to cry everyday when she was in the nicu. stephanie: the heartache of being separated from her newborn contributed to her postpartum depression. still without a car, she totes her two girls with her on a rural bus service to follow-up

appointments. even with those hardships, she feels lucky. inm an area deserted by basic services, including maternal health care, she talks to cathy lavender. >> how are you today? stephanie: what is it like for women accessing maternity health care in rural communities? >> there was only one provider in this county and that is me. there is a lot of pressure. stephanie: in 1980, more than 80% of alabama's rural counties had a hospital providing services. after four decades of closings and consolidation, it is down to 30%. the only hospital in pickens county is one of the many that shut down. but lavender still makes the 45-minute trip out here from tuscaloosa every wednesday to see patients. access to care is one of the underlying factors behind

alabama's high maternal or telly rate. 36 deaths per 100,000 live births, the third highest rate in the nation in 2020. >> i think it is multifactorial. i think economics plays a large role. the fact that a lot of our state is rural and not centered in large cities makes a difference in maternal mortality. we also know that black women have a higher mortality rate than other ethnic groups. stephanie: the state's racial disparity in maternal mortality is one reason that drove stephanie mitchell to start a birthing center under construction in gainesville, alabama. >> an area that never bothered to change the thinking about how unconscious bias, onot so softly anti-black racism affects patients.

right here is one of our two labor suites. stephanie: a certified midwife, she is building what will be the first freestanding birth center owned and operated by midwives in the state. research shows birth centers can improve pregnancy outcomes. >> ok. how is it going? everybody has been doing good. stephanie: they are clients of mitchell's. >> i am so glad you are here. stephanie: prenatal visits started. >> are you training your little sister to be a good big sister? >> i'm trying to. stephanie: jasmine, a nurse herself, is preparing for her second homebirth. when she had her two boys, homebirths were illegal in alabama. they had to drive 35 miles to a hospital in tuscaloosa. >> when i got into labor, we are

flying up the interstate with our flashes on to get up there to make sure we get up there in time. especially in rural areas and the african-american community, a lot of times moms do not get the care they need and the need to be advocated for. if you are having the baby at home, you have that support. stephanie: tell me what the homebirth was like of your daughter. >> it was amazing. it was beautiful. i was able to be in my environment. i had my husband there. he actually caught my daughter. stephanie: it came down to trust for the blakes, who said even if they have to pay out-of-pocket for stephanie mitchell's delivery services, it is worth it. distrust in the medical establishment can also be an obstacle for the increasing number of women who use -- in alabama, substance use could

constitute a felony. >> i am scared to tell doctors. i was trying to get help. i missed my first two appointments to begin with. i did not show up because i was scared. stephanie: living in rural walker county, brandy is eight months pregnant before she could get into treatment, she said she was arrested for possession and threatened with a chemical endangerment charge. alabama is one of only three states to criminalize and incarcerate women for substance use during pregnancy. >> this baby is a miracle a i want it more than anything in the world, the drugs, it is hard to come off of without help. stephanie: drug abuse is one of the top three causes of maternal death in alabama. according to dr. lavender, the state's laws do not help. >> it is a barrier for treatment for a lot of our patients. they will not come to their

apartments because they are afraid they might fail the drug test. stephanie: what is really needed , she said, is more drug treatment services in rural areas and new ways of thinking of access to prenatal care in general. >> the ways we are getting care is not solving our maternal mortality crisis so we must start thinking outside the box, of ways to reach women and address their needs. >> how are you feeng? stephanie: lavender is following a telehealth model. >> let me know when you get a reading. great. stephanie: she walks a patient through an exam with the mother herself taking her and her baby's vitals. >> i hear it for a few seconds. stephanie: do you think you have a future as a doctor? the telehealth visit allows mom

to get her basic prenatal checkups done and access to her own monitoring tools gives her peace of mind. combating maternal mortality means continued access to care in the year after a woman gives birth, say experts. in the u.s., 52% of maternal deaths occur after delivery. now taking medication for postpartum depression, she knows all too well that the health struggles can linger. what do you wish was provided to pregnant single mothers like yourself? >> i feel we need more care. stephanie: as complex ashe problem of maternal mortality is, sometimes the solution starts with something pretty simple. for the pbs newshour, i am stephanie sy in alabama. geoff: this week, north carolina became the latest in a growing

nuer of states to expand medicaid under the affordable care act. governor roy cooper signed the bill into law, marking a major victory for democrats in their efforts to expand federally assisted health care coverage to low income americans. >> the strength of our communities depends on the health of our people and today is a historic step for a healthier north carolina. when this law takes effect, it'll make healthcare more accessible for more than 600,000 north carolinians. geoff: expanding health care access has gained support among voters. the latest pbs "newshour" marist poll shows 63% of americans believe it's the government's responsibility to ensure health care coverage to americans. for more on this latest investment in medicaid access, we're joined by north carolina's secretary of health and human services, kody kinsley. welcome to the "newshour." >> great to be here. geoff: north carolina is

expanding medicaid to adults who make 138% of the federal poverty level, that would be $41,000 for a family of four. you have been traveling the state and talking to people who would benefit from this expanded access. secretary kinsley: people are really excited. i want to thank the governor for the broad coalition of people who have worked so hard to get us to where we are today. in the last few years, some things have changed. first and foremost, additional payments from the biden administration to incentivize states to join medicaid changed the conversation. also, seeing people experience the mental health crisis that we are in in this country today has made people realize we need to have every tool at our disposal. there is no tool that can change the game for mental health in north carolina more than medicaid expansion. geoff: to your point about that,

across the country, mental health care centers have closed and it is jails but end up becoming mental health care facilities. tell me more about your plan to invest in health care. secretary kinsley: we want to invest using those signing bonus dollars for medicaid expansion, $1 billion to try to rebuild capacity in the mental health system we know has languished for far too long. we need to take the resources to where they are needed. 60% of people in incarcerated settings have a substance abuse disorder. many of mental health illness. if people had those rates of diabetes or any other disease, we would do other is a problem with the system. we want to invest in prearrest diversion, jail based programs, reentry programs that break the costly cycle that we know -- we need health care and. handcuffs. that is something we have heard

first-hand from sheriff's across north carolina. we have been battling the opioid epidemic. we will not arrest ourselves out of these issues. if we diverge people to treatment, ge them a path to recovery, we get to support them in healing their families and their communities. this is the right path forward and a smart investment. geoff: when you say the conversation around expanding medicaid has changed, i spoke with the north carolina republican senate leader on this program weeks ago. he initially objected to medicaid expansion in north carolina. he had a change of heart and said it makes perfect sense. there are still some folks who have questions about the cost, to include donald bryson. he runs a foundation. he had some issues with the overall price tag. >> how much will this cost us in the long term? what is the effective medicaid expansion in north carolina?

how much will this cost taxpayers in north carolina? these are all questions are unanswered but it seems like we are betting everything on funding. geoff: what about the cost and what is the plan to prevent cost overrides? secretary kinsley: i would have love for us to expand medicaid long time ago but the advantage of going this far down the path is we have other proof from other states. medicaid expansion controls costs for health care and help save rural hospitals. we know the federal government is committed to maintaining the 90-10 plan we have worked out to have hospitals pay for the 10% match, this is cost contained. this is a smart investment. right now, we pay for this care for people no matter what when you end up in the emergency department with a stroke or major cardiovascular event. reaching them at a point of

prevention and getting them on preventative care is a lot cheaper. this is not only a smart investment for rources, it will make a large difference over time. geoff: it has been more than a decade that the supreme court ruled states did not have to accept medicaid expansion under the affordable care act. nearly half of the states opted out. what has that meant for working-class north carolinians, seniors, folks who live in rural areas who have not had expanded access to health care for more than a decade? sec. kinsley: i grew up in north carolina and without health insurance. i know firsthand what it is like to have family members try to decide whether they are going to buy food or see the doctor. parents praying their arm is just hurt or sprained not broken. my story, like these other 600,000 stories in north carolina that will benefit from

expansion, have been heartbreaking day by day. this last decade of waiting has met some people who started on this journey with us are no longer here because they have lost their lives. this is the right thing to do and i'm glad we are doing it now and i hope we can continue to invest in people because they areur greatest strength. geoff: kody kinsley is the secretary of health and human services for the state of north carolina. thank you for being with us. secretary kinsley: thank you. ♪ amna: 2016, north carolina was in the spotlight when it became the first state to pass a bill barring transgender people from using bathrooms consistent with their gender identity. the loss park national outrage and was repealed a year later. in the last week or so, idaho, iowa and arkansas have passed their own versions of bathroom bills. arkansas is on the verge of

passing an even more restrictive bill. we have the latest. >> last week, arkansas banned students from kindergarten through high school of using public school bathrooms that match their gender identity. another bill in the state would allow someone to be charged with a misdemeanor if they enter a public changing room of the opposite sex with so-called sexual intent and a minor. is psent. . six states have passed bathroom bills of their own. bathroom bills have been filed by republicans in at least 15 states. for more on these bills and their impact, i am joined by joe. they cover. issues. the latest arkansas bill originally criminalized transgender peoples access to bathrooms based on a minor being in the bathroom. the amended version applies only where there is sexual intent, according to the bill, when a

minor is present. the lead sponsor of thbill said he did not intend for it to target transgender people. >> i have also had emails that say trans people are not a threat to minors, like middle-aged, white, straight, baptist men are, that i am one of. it applies to me and all of you. if you choose tonter the bathroom opposite of yr sex. >> how could this be enforced? >> it is one of the big questions with the bathroom bills. trans people are wondering, what would that look like if they go to the bathroom. can someone challege who they are at any time or ask for their id? in schools, there would be a clear policy from the school district. there is a similar lack of clarity. which -- would teachers

police bathroom use? advocates fear a trans person could be challenged in a restroom even though the bill now is not intended to target transgender people. >> a parent, a lifelong arkansas resident, father of a transgender daughter, testified before lawmakers yesterday and said he would never force his daughter to go into a men's restroom. >> before she was diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i witnessed the stress and anxiety she had around using public changing rooms and bathrooms. we would be out in public, she would need to use the bathroom and she would beg us to the point of tears to take her home. >> you talk to people like this father across the country. what are you hearing is the impact of these bills on transgender kids and adults? >> trans youth and their

families tell the bills put a target on the back. the bills have a provision that says young people can use a single occupancy bathroom, such as a teacher's bathroom, if they do not want to use the bathroom of their assigned sex at birth and those bathrooms are often far away from their classrooms. that draws unwanted attention. these are students who already face more bullying. it makes it feel like it is dangerous for them to use the bathroom at school. i have had youth tell me they avoid using the bathroom. >> what about for transgender adults? this bill, the one that was amended, would apply to them? >> for trans adults, it is similar. these bathrooms -- these laws will make them a target and bathrooms. us people testified at yesterday's hearing they are ready to face -- they already face violence and bathrooms and this will make them more of a

target. >> when north carolina passed its bathroom bill in 26, there was a massive backlash. why is there a resurgence of these bills and republican-led states? >> in part because legislation targeting lgbtq people have been growing exponentially. you have more than 400 bills targeting lgbtq people that have been filed. they have been growing more extreme. gender affirming care bans were first filed a few years ago and targeted minors, which advocate said was more extreme. we recently saw the first ever bill that would ban gender affirming care for people of the 26 years old. as they are growing more extreme, conservatives are feeling like they can add on these bills that can previously spark more backlash. >> as you just noted, bathroom bills are not happening in a vacuum.

there was a pbs "newshour" poll that found 43% of americans support laws criminalizing gender affirming care for minors. 54% oppose such loss. that is a 15 percentage point increase since april 2021. when you look at all these anti-lgbtq bills that have been proposed, do you see a difference in outreach to these bills? >> yes, absolutely. we have seen a huge difference for the "don't say gay bill," and outrage. that is for a few reasons. first, it is because most people know lesbian, gay, bisexual people but they are less likely to know trans people so they do not know what their lives look like or what their health care looks like.

they are more susceptible to misinformation. a lot of these bill describe health care for transouth as mutilation and it permanently sterilizers them. that is not the case. what is happening is you are seeing a lot less backlash because people do not understand what care looks like for these young people. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. ♪ amna: at this moment 20 years ago, thousands of american trps were racing across the deserts of southern iraq toward baghdad to depose saddam hussein and dismantle his alleged weapons programs. the victory lead to a near decade of civil war and occupation. no discovery of emd and -- wmd and the deaths of thousands of troops.

now we look back at the decision to invade, the bloody american occupation and where iraq stands today. he was deputy secretary of defense during the george w. bush administration. he held a number of senior jobs at the defense and state department. he was an advisor at the state department during the obama administration. he is a professor at johns hopkins school of advanced international studies. and the men who helped run u.n. weapons inspections in the 1990's in iraq. he led the cia's iraq survey group which also look for weapons of mass destruction. welcome to all three of you gentlemen. ambassador, i would like to begin with you because you were an advocate for the invasion and for toppling saddam hussein. knowing what we know today, wha we have watched and learned over the last 20 years, is the u.s.

better off today as a result of that war? >> i think the right question to ask is are we better off today than if saddam hussein or his sons were still in power and i say yes. we are much better off because saddam hussein is not running the second most important country in the persian gulf. amna: what you think the threat would be today? >> let's start with the fact that is indisputable. there has not been a reputation of the 9/11 attacks were anything the 20 years since. that was president bush's main concern. president clinton had been warning about saddam hussein's weapons of mass destruction in the 1990's. the secretary of defense. went on television with a bag of sugar and said if this was anthrax, thousands of americans could die. and he was right. i believe there has been a

misunderstanding partly caused by our inadequate intelligence. the important question, i believe charles' iraq survey group, saddam hussein was ready to restart all three of his programs. the one i considered most dangerous would be much harder to conceal further down the road and harder to handle. it was frankly the biological weapons program, charles can contradict me from wrong, but i'm believe the isd said it could be reconstituted in weeks or months. when his program was found in iraq, it was five years after they started inspections. the only founded because saddam hussein's son in law told us about it. the time of development between

that and its being found was too long. we have seen what obstacles can do to the whole world and the u.s. having that in the hands of history's worst dictators would not be good. >> what do you make of this idea that saddam could have reconstituted those weapons and posed a greater threat? do you believe the world is better off without him in power? >> history is difficult to conduct. things could have been different. saddam might have died a year later. but maybe not, maybe he would have been a greater danger. it is difficult to say the united states and the middle east are better off. removing a dangerous dictator but we replaced him with chaos. iraqis went through hell and back in the aftermath of what transpired. i do not believe they feel they are better off.

mostf the young people have nostalgia for the saddam era. by dismantling the iraqi military, there was a level of iranian infiltration that was not possible when saddam was in power. it is at a scale that we cannot reverse it. we have been trying to put the iranian genie back in the box and you cannot. the revolutionary guard, a small unit before iraq happened. it was in iraq that have became the empire that it is. finally, i would say that regardless of -- at some point the war lost the american public. the cost, the outcome, it created a sense of diversion on both sides of the aisle.

repuicans and democrats, there is an aversion to war. farther away in china and russia, the conclusion is the united states would no longer go to war that easily. they would rely on sanctions. essentially, we are far less capable of getting our way on the world's stage because many friends or foes do not see credibility in our threaded force. american geo strategy, america's world standing in the middle east has not recovered from the outcome of the iraq war. >> i would like to get more into the impact in just a moment. charles, i will turn into you in a moment about weapons of mass destruction because they were the primary justification to launch the invasion. you lead the iraq study group to find the weapons at 2005. your final reports of the hunt for those weapons had gone as far as feasible and all the

headlines ran "no weapons of mass destruction in iraq." i would like to get your reaction about the possibility of saddam hussein reconstituting the weapons. did you find that to be true? >> in a word, yes. bear in mind, intelligence assessments about saddam were wrong but they were wrong for several reasons. for one reason, there was an attitude that saddam would be crazy to have wmd. in the 1980's, he was at war with iran. saddam made and used 100 1000 chemical ammunitions. . that saved him and that war. secondly, in the 1991 war, when iraq went into kuwait, the u.s. expelled him from kuwait but did not go to baghdad. saddam had in his mind the one reason contributing to the failure of the decision not to go to baghdad in 1991 was his

possession of wmd at that time. add to that the experience of weapons inspectors where we were in iraq, on the ground, placing a monitoring system for what he had acknowledged. he started off with a big lie. he only acknowledged at first the obvious ballistic missiles and chemical munitions. there was a pattern of revelations which ironically, the closer he came to telling the truth, the less we believed him because of the pattern of lies was longer and more established. when the weapons inspectors left , the intelligence community around the planet were left largely blind. in 1998, when the weapons inspectors left, to the beginning of the war, there was very little to make assessments on. the assessments tended to be negative, particularly after

9/11, when the risk of being wrong, the tolerance for ris was very low. it is important to understand the background of the decision was made to go into the war in 2003. the decision and the implementation of it, you can make very strong criticisms of it. the point in time when that decision was made, it is hard to imagine a different decision in fact being taken. >> ambassador, you have said there were mistakes made and that helped to contribute to the destruction we have seen and the devastation for iraqi's in the years sense. what were those mistakes? >> it was a mistake to disband the iraqi army. it was not very popular. most of the draftees in that army went home after the war. the mistake was trying to replace them with a small mechanized force that was not supposed to do internal security. this was when the only real

threat in iraq at that point was an internal one. we formed three very small divisions there were only supposed to guard the borders. that was not the problem. there were many, many iraqis lining up to be enlisted in the army. we could have created a different one. most of the agency that we would do it before we went in. we went to iraq saying we would liberate iraq but instead we have posted occupation. some leading religious authorities in the country said, what are you doing? you said you would liberate us and th we have an occupation. that sounds like what the israelis are doing on the west bank. it was a terrible mistake and we paid a large price for that at the beginning. can i just say very quickly, i really disagree strongly with the idea that we needed saddam hussein for stability in that region. that did not stop hezbollah from

killing the number of american marines in 1983 when sadd was in power. we were supporting him and his war against iran. the consequence was a war against iran in which i think 300,000 iraqis and 300,000 iranians died. followed up by the occupation of kuwait. we had to mount one of the largest military forces in modern history. iraq was not a force for stability under saddam. >> would you like to respond? >> i could put the issues ambassador raised differently. we did not need saddam for stability in the middle east or the brutal iraqi army, the issue is we did not replace these with elements of order either within iraq or the region to serve the broader goals. the issue is not protecting saddam or the military. the issue is we never had an

adequate plan of what to replace them with. there is a larger legacy for the u.s. now because we are still dealing with the consequences of this part of it. iranian power. ho to isis, potentially a source of danger. >> in terms of where we are today, americans recognize one of the primary justifications to launch the warmer weapons of mass destruction that were never found. it has been well reported that colin powell said the acting most regretted was the 2003 presentation when evidence was laid out for the weapons of mass destruction, which turned out not to exist. what is your response to that? >> i think it was a mistake to talk about stockpiles. i attribute that to the way the intelligence was coming through. everyone believed the intelligence.

french and german intelligence much saying the same thing. we should be more careful. the conclusion that charles arrived at was there was a possibility to regenerate programs, that would've been a much better place to stand on. history would have been different if we adopted a fferent military strategy from the beginning. it took us from 2003 to 2006 or 2007 to institute a counterinsurgency strategy that general petraeus applied successfully. if you started that earlier, i believe history would look differently. >> i will give you the last word. >> it is important to think about the fact that had this war been conducted differently after we entered iraq, had we left a different legacy, the questions of the reasons we went in would not loom as large if they do right now. when we continuously debated

reasons of why we went in and questioned why we went in, it is almost like we are admitting to the fact that we will make a mess of it. i do not think that is a good legacy for the united states. how we conducted the war after we arrived is as important as the reasons we went 10. >> strikingly, 20 years later, we are still debating and discussing the impact of the war. thank you very much for joining us. ♪ geoff: remember, there is a lot more online at pbs.org/newshour, including a look at how the marijuana market is competing against the entrenched illegal market. amna: that is the "newshour" for tonight. i am amna nawaz.. . i am geoff: geoff bennett.

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