lisa: the political implications of an historic indictment. >> this will destroy america. >> i have no comment on that. lisa: the country is at a crossroads after former president donald trump is indicted, making history. plus -- >> nine-year-old children. lisa: democrats and republicans debate over guns erupts in halls of congress after another deadly elementary school shooting, next. ♪ >> this is "washington week." corporate funding is provided by -- >> for 25 years, consumer cellular's goal has been to offer wireless service that hopes people connect. we offer a variety of no

contract plans and our team can help find a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit consumercellular.tv. >> additional funding is provided by -- koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. sandra and carl delay-magnuson. rose hirschel and andy shreeves. robert and susan rosenbaum. the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. lisa: good evening and welcome to "washington week." i am lisa desjardins. for our nation, another test of our institutions and politics as donald trump is the first formal -- former u.s. president to face charges. a grand jury voted to indict the former president for a hush money payment related to an alleged affair. to state the obvious, it is an

unprecedented moment for the country. right now, trump is the leading gop candidate for the 2024 presidential nomination. he responded to the indictment with speed and flared text on his true social platform, writing, this is an attack on our country and a continuing attack on our once free and fair elections. republicans rushed to his defense. >> the unprecedented indictment of a former president for campaign finance issues is an outrage. >> my father's only crime was winning the election. lisa: democrats have stressed that no one is above the law, but otherwise they are cautious. here is president biden this morning. pres. biden: i am not going to talk about the trump indictment. lisa: saying he is not going to talk about the indictment. joining to talk about the indictment are luke broadwater, congressional reporter for the new york times, domenico montanaro, senior political editor at npr, ashley parker, senior national political

correspondent for the washington post, and mario parker, washington politics editor at bloomberg news. an illustrious panel and just right for this week. so happy you could join us. ashley, you know trump world well. your repaving -- reporting is this was a surprise, yes? ashley: it was and wasn't a surprise. this is something they have been preparing for for a long time. it was something the former president was simultaneously resigned to and believed he could wish away with vociferous truth socialing and they certainly were not prepared for when it landed, although they had broad plans of attack laid out. some of trump's lawyers were believing it was going to come in a couple weeks, if at all, that they were preparing to take days off so when it actually came thursday they were very surprised. lisa: the mindset now in trump's world is? ashley: trump himself, he is now at a point of defiance.

in reporting today, he has been privately musing about what that arraignment will look like on tuesday, what a potential perp walk could look like, what a mug shot could look like. he wants to convey a defiant posture. they are coming after me, but really they are coming after you. so he was not happy to be indicted, to be clear, but he is now angry and determined to use it for what he could believe -- what he believes could be political leverage. lisa: i want to talk about this moment in history. that arraignment next week, what do we know about what is going to happen and how the attorneys will react? luke: we know the trump attorneys will plead not guilty. we know he will fly to new york monday morning. he will stay at trump tower overnight as well. kind of what ashley said. this is an unprecedented time, but this is a comfort zone for him. he is comfortable being combative. the questions about his 2024

candidacy were about whether he can look forward. now he has a reason to look backward and get into that defensive posturing where he can say, they're coming after you, here is another witchhunt, and i am fighting on behalf of my supporters. you are seeing that play out in polls as well. lisa: comfort zone for president but unprecedented for the country. there is a lot of talk about is this a demarcation line for this country. do you see it this way, and if so how? for what? luke: it is unprecedented. i am sure -- i am not sure it will change the republic forever. america has been through a lot. we have had a president who was arrested before. teddy roosevelt was arrested for speeding on his horse. lisa: and you are not joking. luke: that is true history. we have never had one indicted before but the country has been through big things before and i do not believe this will end the republic or anything like that.

we are seeing a lot of apocalyptic language coming out of the right about this, that we are a banana republic now and there should be big protests in the streets. i know the new york police department is getting ready with extra precautions for any such protests. but we have been through a lot as a country and i think we will get through this. lisa: domenico, you look at the numbers. where are americans on trump, his innocence and guilt, and has this divide grown? do you see a change in the country because of this or no? domenico: we are at this point in the country that is unique and rare when it comes to politics where it comes to divergence, where trump is able to coalesce and insulate himself with his base. not much moves the needle. this certainly is not going to do that, most likely. but when you look at the other side of it, persuadable voters and democrats have been pre-locked in in saying that trump should not be president.

when we had our poll this week, it found that six in 10 people found trump should not be president. that included two thirds of independents. that is pretty tough when you have 80% of republicans saying they like him, three quarters saying they think he should be president. how does he lose a republican primary, and how does he win a general election? those two things are really unique in american history. lisa: i want to get to the idea that republicans at this moment are united around this indictment. and we saw one exam love that from house speaker kevin mccarthy -- we saw one example from house speaker kevin mccarthy. he tweeted out, the da has irreparably damaged our country in an attempt to interfere with the 2024 presidential election. talk of interfering with elections, all of this. republicans are trying to flip the accusations. whato you know about warehouse or public and's are going here? and is this a serious effort or

all politics? luke: they have lined up in uniform fashion in support of donald trump. some people are a little more vitriolic than others and how they are defending him, but there is very much agreement on the republican side they need to do everything they can to support donald trump. that is because that is what the base voters want. they are making sure they are on the right side of that. whether that will be issuing a subpoena for alvin bragg, and there are discussions going on right now, whether that is just public statements defending him at every turn, or coming up with different ways. you even heard consideration of legislation that would make it illegal to charge a former president. they are discussing all sorts of ideas, but you can rest assured that they will for the most part be lining up behind donald trump. lisa: to bring it back to pure politics for a moment, it is not just house republicans, members of congress.

people who are expected to run against him in the republican primary. that is the challenge and the line they have to work, like domenico is saying. you have these voters saying, i voted for trump, i voted for him twice, i likes what he did as president, i would be happy to vote for him again. that tiny sliver where you can maybe wedge a few off, not the hard-core mega supporters, the ones who say, i voted for him, i like him, i think this indictment is a witchhunt, but i would rather have a candidate who is not indicted. i think that is going to be a more successful candidate. it is a very fine line where republicans can make an argument against him. lisa: preparing for this, i wanted to show viewers a picture of three republicans. you look at donald trump, then show this picture. nikki haley. who are those three? they are the only three declared republican candidates for

president. does this if facts people in -- does affect people in florida? mario: this puts more pressure on ron desantis. the conundrum that the republican party is facing right now is the fact that this galvanizes that 30% or so of the republican base that is enough for trump to stay through a primary -- state throw primary the polls show he would most likely lose. biden trails desantis, so desantis has to prove to these voters that i am trump without the baggage, like he did two weeks ago. >> the only thing we are hearing is trump repeatedly just bludgeoning desantis, who is not even in the race yet. if you check your email inbox, you're getting stuff, soft on

crime ron desantis. i was watching cable news. there is an ad hitting ron desantis. they know he is the only candidate who has enough of that kind of backing, and what strategists told me this week, he cannot continue to let the attacks stick to him over and over again because any attack in politics, if it is not answered, that brings your negatives up. what the strategist said to me is, you might say, don't feed the beast, but what do you do when the beast is already feeding? ashley: especially an air primary electorate where they like trump's fight and his tenacity. they want to see that from somebody like desantis. i have strategists say, if you want to be king, you have to take the crown. lisa: for a long time, sources who like desantis but have not come out for him have said, if trump ge indicted, that is the moment.

this is one indictment republicans see as the weakest. if other indictments come, from the department of justice, georgia, could that affect the republican race and how republicans see former president trump? ashley: this is an indictment that trump's team and a lot of republicans would prefer trump disappear, but it is the weakest. they believe it is ticky tacky, hard to explain to the general public, and those other investigations a far stronger. there is an argument that more compelling charges might be more compelling to voters. but the way it might really affect things is that cumulative effect. the most effective messages against trp are the fatigue, the exhaustion. people don't want to wake up every morning having to explain another indictment to their 12-year-old at breakfast. it could be the cumulative effect rather than the content of the charges or the cases against him. lisa: why are democrats hesitant

about this indictment? luke: i do think the are some concerns about the case itself. you have this unique cobbling together of a misdemeanor and a felony, and it is kind of untested. they got around the statute of limitations on it. people are reluctant to be too ebullient about this. look at the posture democrats usually take when there is something negative happening with trump. remember when nancy pelosi at the first impeachment said this is a sad day for our country? it is a step we don't want to take. it is much better when your opponent's on their heels to not be celebrating and to be taking it very seriously. lisa: something else we are watching for is what happens in new york next week, not just in the courtroom. representative marjoe taylor green of georgia tweeted out that she says she is going to new york next week, making a case.

you must protest the unconstitutional witchhunt, all caps. what are you watching as new york city police officers are going on high alert? i know officers and capitol police are ready. what are you watching for two find out if this is a moment that gets out of control or not? domenico: given the train in new york, it is pretty difficult to navigate on a regular day, let alone staging a protest there as well. but by all accounts, even for mar-a-lago, we have somebody dispatched down there today, there were not a lot of people rallying around the outside mar-a-lago as we have seen in previous years as well. that is where we see some of the january 6 affect. >> you wonder what that means. if you don't see the people on the streets, as marjorie taylor greene is trying to amass, does that indicate anything as to trump's political strength? two people take this the seriously? we saw a from quinto p act

saying a majority of people thought this was not that serious of a charge, and maybe people are waiting to see what a jury does. i have to say that the bar for alvin bragg, the district attorney in new york, is pretty high. the stakes are pretty high for him because there is a big difference between an indictment and a conviction. you can imagine that with an indictment and trump being convicted, he can easily say he has been vindicated. he was able to say that after the second impeachment where a majority of senators voted for his conviction, even though that was not the majority needed. a conviction a little bit different when it comes to a jury of his peers to claim everyone is against him and a mass conspiracy. lisa: this trial could happen next spring. that is a pretty interesting timeframe. i want to tell our viewers, trump's indictment is not the only heated topic. debate over the role of guns is rising aft another deadly

elementary school shooting, this time in nashville where a 28-year-old former student armed with an ar 15 military style rifle killed six people, three of them nine-year-old children. republicans responded to the tragedy by saying it is too soon to judge. president biden admits he believes he has exhausted all of his executive authority to act on gun violence. wednesday evening and a remarkable moment, the growing tension between the two parties boiled over into the hallways of congress. >> there is a solution. it is not arming teachers. >> we have guns here to protect us. he does not believe they should have somebody to protect them. lisa: i want to talk to you about this first. you had an external work of journalism in the washington post about the ar 15, the gun that divides us. why is that gun so politically powerful? ashley: because at this point, it was a huge series of multiple stories across all desks in the

newsroom. but it has really become an american icon, which you saw from that video you played. everybody has a strong opinion about it. it is incredibly polarizing. those opinions are incredibly different depending on where you live, what your beliefs system -- your belief system is. it started with a campaign from the gun manufacturers. the ar 15 was originally invented as a weapon of war to help our troops in vietnam. it was not very popular at gun shows. it would be in the back. true gun enthusiasts didn't love it. they thought it was cheap for hunting, not really a sportsman's gun. it has been described as barbie dolls for men, although men are not the only ones who have this weapon, but there is tremendous revenue to make in the ar. if you buy a handgun, that is the end of it. but if you buy an ar, you can

customize it and trick it out. you can get the barbie end of the dream house and the outfit. this is embedded in the fabric of our nation and how people define who they are and who they aren't. lisa: we had a decade where there was an assault weapon ban in our country, and at that point, that idea was relatively popular. now the country is split. who moved in that? obviously people moved more towards gun rights. luke: we are seeing a couple things happening when it comes to guns. you are seeing more people than ever before being supportive of gun restrictions than we have seen in the past. at the same time, republicans are headed in the other direction. we did a poll last year. we talked to gun owners, people writ large about this. 60% of people were in favor an ar ban. the difference was only 40% of

republicans were in favor of that ban. when you have that kind of split and districts in the country that are maybe three dozen now that are truly competitive districts, when you have that be th polie ti ccs startasing in 2006d 129 potentially competitive districts. now it is only in the 30's. when you have that, you have way more orthodoxy. for a public and's, that means guns as the prince will issue they stand on. lisa: we know that the democratic base once more gun legislation, more action from president biden. he says he has run out of things he can do. but i also don't hear him stomping on this. is there a reason we don't hear more from the president on this? mario: we saw him in monterey park, california, two weeks before this latest incident. he has said he has issued a

steady flow of executive orders. earlier this week, he said, there is nothing else he can do beyond the executive order. he has to figure out a way to get something done in congress. it is a fraught situation. he pointed to the big money that is involved there. we ran some numbers that show the nra for example spent $60 million in last year's midterms, donated to 257 gop candidates alone, then spent another $8 million onobbying. that is the big money that the democrats and biden administration are up against. lisa: that brings us back to our home turf, congress. i think a lot of americans don't understand why congress is shouting in the hallways but not actually having real conversation here about it. what is your understanding? luke: the parties are so divided on this issue. even if you could get some kind

of consensus around some minor changes, it is hard to get the votes to do that with the house in the hands of republicans. you would still need nine republicans in the senate to join whatever proposal. the party has embraced the a 15. i don't know any other way to say it. it is very common for republicans to pose for christmas pictures with their families holding ar 15's/ every time there is talk of a band, sales go through the roof. one in 10 republicans own an ar- 15. we are talking about taking the guns from their houses. lisa: although a ban it's usually moving forward. luke: that is the way they view it, and it activates them. the parties are so divided. they did pass legislation last congress and it was the republican senators in the halls saying, we want to see that implemented first before we try to pass anything else. lisa: it is not just the nra

anymore, or is it, that is motivating this? ashley: it is not at all. mario is right about the figures, but the nra is far less of a player than it was a decade ago. domenico was saying what it comes down to is this is key orthodoxy in the republican base. it doesn't matter that something might be popular across the nation. these republicans just feel -- forget about a tough vote, they can barely take any vote for common sense gun restrictions and win their party primary. luke was describing the pictures we see of children with ar's on christmas cards, but it is also that symbol. members of congress are wearing that as lapel pins. they used all where flags. it is a way to own the libs.

kit is a way to instantly show your political identity. -- it is a way to instantly show your political identity. >> politics can be like an aircraft carrier. you don't notice it is turning around and you are on an aircraft carrier because it is turning around so slowly. what we have seen with the decline of the nra, there have been pro-gun rtriction groups that have stepped in like every town, the giffords group, and mike bloomberg, who is a billionaire new yorker who has a lot of money to donate to a group like every town, which he has funded. they have made real differences at the statewide level because when you have politics being as split as it is, a lot of fights are going to the states, and a lot of democratic groups have gotten hip to these strategies that republican groups have used over the years. you are starting to see the tide turn. i am interested in the next 10 or 20 years where we are at. lisa: one last question on gun issues.

republicans just are less familiar with people being harmed by guns and maybe democrats are less faliar with people who own guns? if you know someone who was killed by an ar 15, that is an issue, if you don't -- i don't know. ashley: guns at this point have touched every single slice of life. parents, they have been in schools, they have been in churches, they have been in predominately black supermarkets, country music concerts in las vegas. it is hard to say someone cannot imagine a situation they are in where one of these weapons might show up. lisa: we have about a minute left. here is a question i am excited to ask. we talk about this historic time. i want to ask each of you quickly, which adjectives would you use to describe this time. >> scary, crazy, exciting. >> extraordinary, exhilarating, critical. lisa: look, put you on the spot.

luke: divisive and fraud. ashley: i don't know if deja vu is an adjective, but it all having covered trump since 2015 feels so familiar, every single bit of it. incredible, important, exhausting. lisa: we have to leave it here for now. thank you for sharing your reporting, and thanks to all of you for watching at home. don't forget to watch pbs news weekend on saturday for a look at the fda decision to allow over counter sale of the opioid overdose antidote narcan. i am lisa desjardins. good night from washington. >> corporate funding for "washington week" is provided by -- >> for 25 years, consumer cellular's goal has been to offering no contract wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. our u.s.-based customer service team can help find a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit consumercellular.tv.

>> additional funding is provided by -- koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. sandra and carl delay-magnuson. rose hirschel and andy shreeves. robert and susan rosenbaum. the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ . >>

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