♪ ♪ narrator: funding for this presentation of this program is provided by... narrator: pediatric surgeon. volunteer. topiary artist. a raymond james financial advisor tailors advice to help yive your life. life well planned. brook: these are people who are trying to change the world. startups have this energy that energizes me. i'm thriving by helping others everyday. people who know, know bdo.

narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. and by contributions to this pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. announcer: and now, "bbc news". >> on christian fras. this is the context. >> if you expect me to sort out issues and get rid of people, give me the powers to do it. we have people we have sacked and have had independent tribunals reinstate them. >> the idea that the problems of policing can be dealt with by more police investigations of themselves and by sacking individual bad apples i'm concerned is part of the cycle of outrage and superficial reform. >> an issue in policing across

the country. we need a service that fits the 21st century. >> welcome to the program. another action-packed program tonight. the white house says they have no consular access to the american journalist being held by the russians on spying charges. we will speak to a former soviet dissident held in the same notorious moscow prison in the 1970's. we will hear from mark irvin on his investigation into russia's parachute regiment and the losses that unit has sustained in ukraine. we start tonight with the cleanup within britain's biggest police force. the met commissioner, appointed in september, believes there are hundreds of corrupt officers serving in the force who should not be in the job, and so

concerned is he at the scale of the problem that around 90 of his officers from organized crim have been re-tasked with investigating their own. he set out the plans in a live phone and on bbc 11. >> of course i want to sack them. in a lot of cases i don't have the final say on who is in the metropolitan police. i know that sounds mad. i am the commissioner and you are holding me to account with these questions because you want me to run the police service, yet there are independent legal tribunals who can decide we have to keepomebody even though we want to sack them. that's one of the powers that has to be changed by the home secretary and she's doing a review that will probably be done by the end of the month. if you expect me to sort out the conflicts in the met and get rid of people, give me the powers to do it.

it seems to me nonsensical. we have to be transparent about the changes that have to be made. the fact that we don't have the final say as a problem. it is not that we have not made bad decisions from time to time. i am not trying to offload responsibility, but we have people who we have sacked and independent tribunals have reinstated them, even those with serious convictions. >> he said that if the 1131 cases they have reviewed -- that of the 1131 cases they have reviewed, some will be reassessed. 160 one met officers have no convictions, 66 -- have convictions, 66 serious. joining me now is the former metropolitan police superintendent. mark, let me start with you.

nearly 700 cases are going to be looked at again. clearly the commissioner is not happy with that. the process, the way they were dealt with at the time, clearly does not stand up to scrutiny. >> no. this is a strategy which is very high risk, because what we have seen the commissioner due today is almost expressed his pride in the amount of gross misconduct that he has already seen within the met. he's actually revealed among the officers. he seems to take pride in suspending police officers who should not be in the force as he sees it and he wants to sack more police officers. this is because he believes that is the only way that he can restore trust in the police. there was a poll today done by the bbc which asked londoners whether they trusted the metropolitan police service and only 29% of londoners said they

did. among women and ethnic minorities it was 24%. a figure for the mayor of london, just a few years ago, asking a similar question, found 89% of lonners then did trust the met. so you can see the enormous challenge that he's got, because he needs to turn around those numbers and quickly. his answer to that is to try and look as tough as he can on getting rid of the bad coppers and changing the culture of the met. the problem he's god is he needs to do it very quickly and the clock is ticking and changing those numbers around will be exceedingly difficult. >> dr. logan, it will be remarkable to people that the commissioner once some of these officers out of the forests, but as he says, he does not have the final say. some of the people were sacked and then reinstated. >> yeah.

that's police regulation. it's not subject to employment law. that's been one of the issues for previous commissioners. every commissioner i can remember in my 30 years at the met, i said they were going to do something about not just racist cops but corrupt cops, etc., as far as a commissioner in the 1970's, but no one has got around to the detail of how they will do that. i would like to think mark rowley, working with the home secretary, to get police regulations more streamlined, so you do not just get reinstated, as we have seen time and time again. the other thing is he's now looking at redeploying 80 or 90 officers to go into the anticorruption command, which sounds good, but those officers

policing, terrorism and other critical matters, so it's showing the seriousness of it, and he has to redeploy up to 90 officers to deal with sexism and, unfortunately, they will not be looking at any racism issues even though the case report said racism was systemic. >> has the commissioner given the public in london any guarantees that those officers who are on this list facing reinvestigation will no longer be a threat to the public? >> yes. he tries to reassure londoners as often as he can. he says he needs the power you have been talking about to deal with the officers, but in fact, i think he's reasonably confident the processes now got in train, they are re-vetting all the officers and staff inside the met, checking everybody against both the police national computer, which is looking at the potential crimes they may have committed,

the police national database for intelligence that might have been missed in relation to officers, and the likelihood is that they are going to find things. those things are going to make very, very unpleasant reading for the metropolitan police. there are going to be scandals. the difficul is that, in cleaning out the stables, if you like, you are going to uncover an awful lot of manure. the problem is that that is, as we've seen in the figures already, it is going to undermine public confidence, certainly in the short to medium-term. and i think this is the real challenge for the met, because this is an existential crisis, i think. the reason why he's moving people from terrorism and serious crime into the investigatory roles is because he recognizes this is the most important issue for the met and for the police in london that he's got on his plate. he needs to sort this out.

he needs to convince people that, actually, he's changing the culture. he is rooting out the bad cops. as you well know, in this country, we have policing by consent. the legitimacy of the metropolitan police to do what theyo is based entirely on public confidence and trust in what they are doing. the kind of figures we are seeing in terms of trust at the moment are alarming. >> if this is a problem, dr. logan, in the met police, then how widespread is this in the other forces in the u.k. and what does he say about vetting for police officers? >> it seems that the vetting has been totally inept over the last five to 10 years. they brought in a lot of officers over the last couple of years since the government decided they would bui up the

numbers they lost since austerity. that is all across the country. the chief constable needs to do their review on how large scale of a problem it is. especially in specialist units, like the diplomatic protection groups, you know, that is where you see safe havens for predators, racists, sexist and homophobes. that is not just indicative of the met. you see it all over the country. that will be a big ask. if people don't understand that -- and i take the analogy of the clearing the stables and the manure thing -- because there's a stench about this. people are recognizing it. that's why the commissioner and the constables have to get their act together through the police chief and college of policing. now is not the time for semantics.

it's time for significant aion and a lot of it will involve officers losing their jobs and also the people that protected them, because those people cannot operate in a bubble on their own. they were protected, whether by the supervisors or their peers. you have to change the culture so that the good cops believe they can call out the good cops without retribution or any form of isolation. >> yes. is obviously part of the problem, the confidence to come forward and call out the sort of behavior we are talking about. mark, we have talked about the vetting procedure and the powers he needs to be able to sack the bad officers. what about the regulations with regard to officers who have a criminal offense? because clearly that needs to be looked at again as well. should there be zero tolerance? >> this is a difficult one for the met. susan hall, the conservative chair of the police and crime

committein london, has effectively said, if you have any conviction at all, you should not serve in the metropolitan police. a lot of people will support that view in london. the problem ishat te henuer of t wishes to have. and it particularly wants to recruit from ethnic minorities. and the reality is that the experience of ethnic minorities in london has been -- it will be quite likely that potentially very good police officers who could bring an awful lot to the metropolitan police might have been picked up at the age of 14 or 15, stop and search, and discovered a small amount of cannabis in their pocket. now, should something like that absolutely mean, no, you can never be a police officer? mark rowley's view is that that is pentially something that could be put to one side.

but i think the vetting procedure, as you say, has not been effective at all. the fact that we are finding out that people had criminal convictions before they joined the police- went through the vetting process despite having terminal convictions that would have barred them from joining scotland yard and yet they still did. so there's something seriously wrong there. but this process, you were talking now about london and the rest of the country. all of the territorial forces in england and wales are looking at every sing serving officer and member of staff, checking against their criminal -- the criminal databases, intelligence databases and so on, and undoubtedly, local newspapers and television will be full of stories of police who have done bad things. and all of this, i think, will undermine public confidence, not just in london but around the country. the question is whether the politicians can sort of restrain

themselves as public anxiety builds, particularly around elections. will they give mark rowley the two years that baroness casey said he needed -- or five years she said would be required, but that's a long time in politics. one wonders how will the home secretary and mayor of london behave if the pressure from the public to do more puts mark rowley under a lot of pressure and will they stand by him then? >> a thought fro you, dr. logan, on minorities coming into the forest and this issue of whether there shoulde zero tolerance. it's a tough job, policing, and you need to be streetwise. where would you set the bar? >> you have to judge everybody on their merits. if there's some severe or serious crime, you know, dishonesty, things that smack of

premeditation, because sometimes, a young person, they've got a short fuse and there might be minor injuries. that is a criminal offense. those things, those spontaneous, unintentional actions, should not be counted against someone, especially if they have a good track record, good education, in employment, and have the right attitude for the job. it is not just about getting people in. it's people with the right attitude, understanding they are a public servant. this is not a way in which they dominate people when it's internally, through racism or sexism or homophobia, or externally. so you want the right sort of people. it's not just about if they've

got a totally good character previously. they have to understand theyre public servants because they serve the public and the public will work with the police if they get this right. >> fascinating conversation. it could get worse before it gets better. mark irvin and leroy logan, thank you very much. mark easton. we have mark urban later in the program. mark easton our home affairs editor. plenty more on the website if you want to read all about that story. this is bbc news. let's take a look at some of the other stories making headlines. the former first minister of scotland, nicola sturgeon, pulled out of a speaking event tonigh following the arrest of her husband. he was arrested and released without charge pending further investigation into the party's fundraising and finances. a police search resumed today at

the capital. sainsbury's has defended its packaging of minced beef after shoppers complained it has turned the meat to mush. the story explained it was being vacuum packed to use less plastic. it came after shoppers expressed horror at the presentation of the meat, which they say now risen build someone's kidney. it has been packaged in a plastic tray covered with film and a leaflet that says it's eco-friendly. the former italian prime minister silvio berlusconi has been suffering from chronic blood cancer for some time and is in intensive care. he's faring better. you are alive with bbc news. in the soviet era, a prison in moscow was a notorious place where dissidents and others were interrogated by the kgb.

today, it's largely used by the kgb's successor, the fsp, as a pretrial detention facility. that is where one person is being held in isolation. the u.s. secretary of state said in his mind it was a clear-cut case of wrongful detention. >> in his case, we are working through a determination. it is something we are working through deliberately, but expeditiously as well, and i will let that process play out. in my mind, there's no doubt he's being wrongfully detaine by russia, which is what i said to foreign minister lavrov when i spoke to him over the weekend and insisted that heaven be released immediately.

>> the prison does not suffer from the overcrowding present in the rest of the russian prison system. they enforce extreme segregation from the outde world. as the wall street journal put it, the place is designed to make prisoners feel abandoned. let's speak to a former soviet prisoner whoas arrested in 1977 by the kgb and accused of espionage and treason. he spent nine years as a political prisoner, including some time in that prison. welcome to the program. thank you for being with us. tell us what it's like inside this prison. >> good evening. it is by far the most isolated prison in the gulags system. the allies's -- i did not know it all anything what was happening. i could imagine but i did not

know. there was no access to lawyers, relatives, or anybody. it's a good place to isolate a person from the world totally. second, there's a lot of psychological pressure, with such a serious accusation. cooperating means you have to say publicly you are right and you are sorry to make mistakes. that is all they need. it seems a little bit different today but political prisoners arson for many years to gulags. it is serious. i think it's important for america on the highest level to say as clearly as possible that

there's no base for using him in espionage. in my case, the president said he looked and all the documents will say there's no connection. i think it's important because it isypical to meet for an interview and then to say there were secret documents. it is important that the wall reet journal say that he never tried to send any article about secret factories. we never asked and there was no attempt from him to propose such an intview. the wall street journal knows that. all these statements -- for the press to fight, activate the free world, it's important to say. >> of course, he's a u.s. citizen, but his parents are

russian jews, as were yours, and, in fact, i know they have set out a picture of him at his temple in miami, because it is the passover season. do you suspect that it's because of his heritage that he has some -- heritage that that is why he's been taken? >> first of all, yes. he is also jewish. that is why today, passover, and i, as many over the wld, had a special if the chair for those jews who are arrested. vaguely, i don't think that this moment, the fact that he's jewish, was important for russia. the fact that he had this russian roots and he was fluent in the russian language and spoke with many people helps

them to present an easier presentation because he was in contact with many people. they can easily plant among these people something. the most important thing for them at this moment is that he's an american citizen, journalist, and that's important. the direct connection between this and the cia. at this moment of confrontation between russia -- because of ukraine, i think it's in the hands of prudent to play. >> i wonder if the united states or whether you feel the u.s. has made -- because of the exchange of former u.s. marine trevor reed for constantin gerrish inko and then in exchange -- then an exchange involving brittney griner. have they set a dangerous

precedent and is evan paying for that? >> whether the u.s. could get a better price, maybe, i don't know. that one prisoner made him important. in general, it's another reminder that russia -- the russian regime looks at all this american citizens, whether they are journalists, diplomats, businessmen, or tourists, as cogs in their game. if they want to release somebody or get something that we don't know at this moment from -- they could easily decide that the way to get some cards to play by arresting this or another journalist. >> jus briefly, it cannot be a

coincidence that he was arrested days after they indicted this brazilian student, the fbi, who was accused of espionage himself. it cannot be some coincidence, can it? >> no. it cannot. there were some other spies caught in europe, and all the time, russia was caught was something. why specifically it was this journalist, i don't know, but the kgb always keeps a lot of opportunities at hand and decide this is the one to use at this moment. >> ok. we will have to leave it there. very interesting hearing such history. thank you very much indeed for being with us. he spent some time in the lefortovo prison.

we will continue to focus on russia and hear from mark urban in the next half-hour about his investigation into a unit in russia that has suffered some big losses. also, we will talk about the royal family, delving deep into its history with slavery. stay with us. narrator: funding for this presentation of this program is provided by... narrator: financial services firm, raymond james. man: bdo. accountants and advisors. narrator: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. by judy and peter blum kovler foundation; pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. and by contributions to this pbs station om viewers like you. thank you. ♪ ♪ narrator: you're watching pbs.

♪ ♪ narrator: funding for this presentation of this program is provided by... narrator: pediatric surgeon. volunteer. topiary artist. a raymond james financial advisor tailors advice to help you live your life. life well planned. brook: these are people who are trying to change the world. startups have this energy that energizes me. i'm thriving by helping others everyday. people who know, know bdo.