william: it's another week of divisions in washington as fights over the supreme court and the debt ceiling drag on. >> because the court will not act, congress must. >> senate democrats say the supreme court is in dire need of reforms after several justices failed to disclose in receiving gifts and tuition payments. >> this assault is trying to delegitimize. >> republicans are claiming this move for reform is politically motivated. >> we are ready for that debate. >> the president asked us to come on may 9. >> the u.s. comes closer, a deal is elusive as president biden meets next week.

>> today's verdict makes clear that the justice department will do everything in its power to defend the american people and american democracy. >> four members of the proud boys are found guilty for helping organize the snurks but americans are divided over what happened on january 6. next. announcer: this is "washington week." corporate funding is provided br cellular helps people communicate and connect. and we have a customer service team. to learn more visit consumer cellular . tv. the yuen foundation, committed tore bridging differences. sandra and carl did he

delay-magnuson, rose hirschel and andy shreeves, and robert and susan rosenbaum and from viewers like you. thank you. william: good evening, i'm william brangham. the partisan division were on full display. on thursday, the supreme court justice thomas failed to disclose a donation. he paid for thomas' great nephew, this follows that crow purchased his mother's home and took him on justice gorsuch that had business before the court.

senate democrats kon veepped a hearing to press for ethics' reforms. >> until there is an honest process, these messes will continue. the court has proven that it cannot police itself. william: reforms are necessary, many g.o.p. senators called the hearings are politically motivated. >> it's the democrats aren't winning every fight and they nd that reality intolerable. william: senate republicans have no interest in getting involved in raising the debt limit. >> this will be solved when the speaker and the speaker reach an agreement. it should be clear that the senate is not a relevantlayer this time.

william: the treasury department estimates the u.s. department will run out of money as soon as june 1, this continues next tuesday at the white house when speaker mccarthy and senator mcconnell meet president biden. on thursday, there was another reminder of the extreme repercussions. four members of the proud boy were found guilty of seditious conspiracy. joining me to discuss this, heather caygle, managing editor at punchbowl news, asma khalid from n.p.r. and anita couple ar from politico and phil mattingly. thank you for being here. could you just remind us of the

stakes on this debt limit fight. what is speaker mccarthy's current position? he is a deal maker. but he wants a deal. and there are three parts of that deal. and take back to his conference. andrea: say look what i got us. that cld be reform. it's not that foggy. but the white house doesn't seem to understand kevin mccarthy. and i think they are counting on him to go up to the brink and back down and say, whoa, whoa, whoa. he is saying no, i will not break down. remarkable success because he held his g.o.p. house together and put forward a piece of

legislation and saying this is what we demand. what was it that they all agreed to? phil: this was a piece of legislation and they didn't think they could get it across the finish line and he was able to find the 217 votes. and there is a wish list of conservatives and battled for 15 rounds to become the speaker of the house and top-line from fiscal 2024 and permitting reform and regulatory actions and cancelling student loans. it was a wish list. with a full understanding with anybody who is speaking candidly, none of that was going to floi. getting across the finish line was to start the negotiation. we have leveraging and it raises the debt ceiling.

the problem with that, the white house position is we will have no negotiations at all. and why this is so different from 2011 and 2013 is the white house is saying, we learned the lessons from those. this should not be a point of leveraging. collapsing the should not be one-third of government and we will not negotiate because using this leverage. and now we are at a point where it's serious. and this is not joked around to negotiate. let's finish out something fast. >> there is publicly and republicans and democrats don't want to acknowledge a short-term extension and janet yellen put out the june 1 deadline that is very much part of the conversation because that is not

possible to get a budget deal across the finish line by that timeline. and the white house has been unyielding and don't want to like these two things together and the market suffered and economy has suffered and we cannot repeat that. >> this is something that the white house has been dealing with since biden came in. they had the years where vice president biden was the negotiateddor for barack obama and did it for all those years and there was push back and he gave up too much. the republicans said they would negotiate and walked away. when joe biden came this and there were people in the white house said we walked in those years, we don't want to do this again. we want to go in there and be firm. >> do you think that is what is driving biden's firm footing on

this? >> i think there are. there are democratic, obama staffers inside the white house said we have to stand firm. there are other things that he wants to show he can do this and he said he woo -- woo combine those two things. >> people forget there was a 2021 debt ceiling and democrats took a and held the line. andrea: worked out for them. and i think this informed the white house approached this produce in a way that underappreciated that the speaker of the house is now a republican and the speaker of the house can can get the votes to get the bill passed. that is a level of uncertainty and unexpected success for mccarthy that has thrown things in a different place.

>> i feel another thing, that is one, this is a much different republican conference in 2011 and 2013. much more conservative. the majority is much smaller and mccarthy doesn't have the strength that boehner was acting like back then. mccarthy has only four votes to loose. several republicans actually don't agreeith the june 1 date. they don't think it is real but a political ploy and others they said it will not be a catastrophic as democrats said it will be. back in 2011, 75% of the house was not here and do not have that institutional memory. william: not just democrats that are saying this would be an the

country, what does happen if we don't have meet that? >> 2011, standard & poors downgraded and there are economic consequences and look at the stock market. and that's what many economists are foreshadowing. sources are thinking earlier today that there is -- you can assume that they are making the outreach. and to help on their behalf. william: don't do this. >> what you are suggesting, heather, the republican party that is receptive from that message. phil: the view in washington right now given how close we are, this has never happened before. and you want to project that

economists have done analysises 10 trillion in terms -- if we look at stock market losses and mass unemployment to the tune of 5%, 8%. if you own a credit card, your rates will spike immediately, immediate recession, social security payments, paying the military, all of that is connected to this. we have never done it before. tough to be able to point to, this is what we hav seen and will project to happen and feeds into republicans saying this isn't something that is real. >> and and it could be because the country has never been in this situation. >> this is why you are seeing the white house and administration saying all these things that you said. but it sounds like it is falling on deaf ears because may we

haven't gone through it and the president is trying to get chambers of commerce and they are not supporting him and they are saying get down and negotiate. so it is actually a little bit der the radar and backfiring. william: after this white house meeting next tuesday that mccarthy does get some compromise, do you have any sense whether or not he could sell that compromise to his own base? >> that is the real question, isn't it? it has to be something he can sell and if he cannot sell, what happens there? his speakership is incredibly fragile and we saw the vote when he became speaker and can he go back and do that? it has to be a certain type of deal and i don't think they walk away next week with any type of deal. and get to this point where they

might be able to agree pun and there are a couple of things. there are things some democrats have said we are open to this. but those are far and few between and there are a particular buckets. william: the president said i'm not negotiating. what if, after tuesday's meeting he comes out to the white house milan and says as i told my republican colleagues i am not going to negotiate on this, what is your sense of what happens at that point? >> i don't know. we are in an unprecedented territory. when these crises are playing out politically, but behind the scenes there are a lot of clues especially with something this big. the only thing i can think of is a government shutdown and it will end but no one knows.

they aren't talking, the white house and mccarthy didn't talk until the other day. i think the white house is counting on and saying we need to do the short-term extension. it's not me walking back, i want to separate these things and not let the country default. if mccarthy were to agree that he would want big concessions to go back to his conference just for that short-term. >> i think this is a critical point here. we can name staffers with their legislative expertise who have thread needles in knockdown dragout wars and come up with creative solutions. they are uncompatible. if one won't negotiate and one says these are my top lines,

there is no pragmatic ground or vehicle that connects one to the other that allows one to happen two months later, nonef those things worked. they will have to agree to move off of it. i can think through how you thread the needle on a policy side to get the votes between democrats and republicans. i think it's possible, for kevin mccarthy, you need democratic votes and you will lose your right flank. if you are the white house, you will have to move off your own members and budget caps and agree to permanent reform. these are difficult concessions and a month away and none has been social eyesed. people are talking about it. that takes time. all of this takes time.

we don't have time. william: really. i would like to pivot to ethics scandal that is happening with the supreme court. every day, there is a new revelation about that a payment that was made, loans not disclosed, tuition payments and "washington post" reported of nondisclosed payments being made to ginni taiments. theemocrats are arguing that you have to figure out a package to get your house in order. is it your sense that john roberts will do it? >> we did not attend that hearing on capitol hill. [laughter] >> yoknow, look, the court is a self-policing institution,

full of members that have full-time appointments. they are not under -- it's not like being an elected official. there is no incentive to change behavior. and something that justice roberts said is that he cares about the integrity of the court and look at public opinion. and there is a poll where it was over 60% of the american public has little faith in the court. those numbers have gotten worst over the last few years and our understanding is that roberts does care about how the court is perceived. >> i think in addition to the public opinion poll, we have seen that last week when john roberts said he was not coming to this hearing, he did send a

letter and attached something that many people would say that was not very strong and he said here are the ethics policies we have. i'm not saying that there is a strong document, but that is pretty unusual. he and the court are feeling this drumbeat of story after story, all these things that have been coming in for months, last year or two. he said we signed this ethics statement its remarkable. it didn't do a lot, i think we are seeing signs they are paying attention and said that public opinion is not high on the court right now. william: let's say john roberts says as we have been hearing, we have got this, don't worry about it. do you think that will be enough to satisfy congress but this drumbeat and looks awful -- we

should say none of what has been disclosed. the failure to disclose them is illegal. you can get gifts but you have to acknowledge. do they have to step in and acknowledge? >> there is a huge partisan divide. there is no middle ground on the hill and republicans are saying democrats are going after a conservative court. and democrats are saying they are protecting a conservative court. on the senate judiciary. senator feinstein a well known member, she has been absent sings february and they do not have a majority to advance legislation at this point or compel how to testify. anything like that. and if you look at the chairman and i talked to him, senator

dick durbin, my hands are tied. it's sad, but what else can i do. it has frustrated some democrats like senator whielthouse and bring more attention to this and what senator feinstein there is little they can do. william: i turn to january 6 and four members of the proud boys were convicted for their role in the conspiracy and attack on the capitol on january 6. we know that the whole attack was that election was stolen and that, we know from polling is still a wide spremed belief among members of the g.o.p. and phil, does this verdict against

the proud boys do anything to break that spell with republican voters that the election was sound and need to move move on? phil: it is a sad. i was in the capitol on the 6th. what seems obvious to us and what would carry over throughout history and republicans that i have talked to and all of us spoke to in the days after, couldn't believe what happened, said that former president shouldn't be anywhere near government now and now are completely silent and will likely support him. not likely, but will and endorse. william: are they staying silent, how do you explain it? phil: we are an embarrassing space where members will tell you how they feel about the

former president off the record in a candid way and never hear them engage or do an 180 when speaking on the record. and they have good reason to be infuriated and if they believe something that they should convey. they are operating off of their constituents and who is calling their offices and not even the fear of the primary, these are the people they are hearing from. he's the guy and members are so reactive to that that that is not justifying the position and personally i remember every single member what they said and probably going to address the nominee but the reality of the political moment which

underscores how tenuous of the moment we are walking into in terms of potential and and who knows what can happen. this is a guy trying to overturn the election. that is insane. and yet that is the moment we are headed into. and i don't think anyone has it. and they will continue to stay silent and regret that they didn't vote to impeach. >> look at the polls. donald trump is way ahead. william: looks like biden will beat trump again. >> i have been struck by some of the people saying they support him is because they think he won last time. he didn't get to be president and supporting this coming time.

it's that per me ating. and isn't going away. william: remarkable thing how this election turns out. we have to leave it there for now. i thank my panel for joining us and sharing your reporting and thanks to all of you for joining along with us as well. wash pbs news wekd for a conversation about link were covid as the end of the covid declarations. i'm william brangham from washington. >> funding for "washington week" is provided by -- consumer cellular has plans to design plans. our service team can find a plan to fit you. >> additional funding is

provided by the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences. sandra andl car son, rose hire chel and andy shreeves, robert and susan rosenbaum and from contributions from people like you. thank you.

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