♪ geoff: good evening. i'm geoff bennett. amna: and i'm amna nawaz on the "newshour" tonight. border officials prepare for a surge of migrants as the controversial title 42 immigration restrictions expire. we discuss the issue with secretary of state antony blinken. geoff: the epa proposes new rules that would force power plants to slash carbon emissions. amna: and ukraine awaits the arrival of american tanks that could be a game-changer in its fight against russia, but using the weaponry brings its own challenges. >> it's like owning a ducati. it's got a lot of expensive parts. it is a gas turbine engine and a lot of proprietary systems. ♪

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carnegie corporation of new york , supporting education, democratic engagement and the advancement of international peace and security at carnegie.org. and the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. ♪ this program it was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. amna: welcome to the newshour. a deadline is at hand tonight for migrants hoping to enter the u.s. from mexico. the hours are counting down to the end of covid-19 curbs on

asylum seekers. geoff: in its place, the biden administration is promising a crackdown on illegal crossings. that, in turn, made this a day of desperation for many. lisa desjardins has our report. correspondent: massive lines and increasing tension at the southern us border today, as both migrants and border patrol prepare for a major policy shift. the pandemic-era restrictions known as title 42 have been used to deny asylum seekers for the past 3 years on the grounds of protecting public health. those restrictions expire at midnight tonight. amid confusion, some migrants fear what that could mean. >> we don't know how it's going to be, maybe it's easier to enter here or maybe it's more complicated. in truth, we have uncertainty. we are here and we do not know what will happen. hopefully it will be easier for the migrant, because at the moment it is very difficult. correspondent: for months, concern has mounted.

as migrants have rushed to the border in record-droves. across from brownsville, texas, crowds hoisted belongings overhead as they traversed the rio grande and stood face-to-face with u.s. troops, separated by razor wire. yesterday, overwhelmed holding facilities near the border began releasing detainees, telling them to return for processing within 60 days. the biden administration says its replacement policy, known as title eight, will both crack down on illegal crossings, and foster legal pathways for migrants. secretary of homeland security alejandro mayorkas spoke at the white house. >> we prepared for this moment for almost two years, and our plan will deliver results. it will take time for those results to be fully realized, and it is essential that we all take this into account. correspondent: no coincidence, on capitol hill -- >> on this about, -- vote, the

yeas are 219, the nays are 213. correspondent: house republicans narrowly passed a sweeping secure the border bill. numbered hr2, it would resume building a border wall, add more border patrol agents, allow for indefinite family detention and insist most asylum seekers remain in their home country or be detained while their claims are reviewed. debate was substantive and sharp. >> i urge my colleagues to reject this legislation. it would greatly harm children for the sake of cheap political points. our borders should be governed by laws upholding argumentative, not demagogues promoting bigotry. >> hr 2 gives our agents and officers the resources they desperately need, closes loopholes in an abused asylum system and protects innocent children from harm. this bill is a step away from the chaos we are seeing and a step closer to helping others achieve the american dream i have been so blessed to live. correspondent: the bill is not expected to get a vote in the senate. but the issue is expected to remain heated in washington and

across the country. for the pbs newshour, i am lisa desjardins. amna: for more on us immigration policy, i spoke earlier today with secretary of state antony blinken. welcome to the newshour, thank you for joining us. >> good to be with you. amna: we are speaking at a time of unprecedented global migration. as you well know, our southern border is no exception. as title 42 goes into ending tonight, we're already seeing, what, some 8000 or 9000 apprehensions a day at the u.s. southern border. officials are saying some 65,000 people are waiting in northern mexico to try and cross after it ends. we are facing in a president test of our system. what are you worried about at this moment in time? >> well, first, it is important to emphasize that this is unprecedented because we are facing around the world more people on the move than at any time in recorded history, displaced from their homes for

one reason or another. and that is powerfully true in our own atmosphere and that brings us in our direction. we have been working on this from day o of this administration, and the most important thing is this. it is getting a shared sense of responsibility across his hemisphere for the challenge of migration, and we have been doing that. president biden has been leading that effort. we brought countries together in los angeles at the summit of the americas, and out of that came the los angeles declaration on migration, where countries are stepping up to do things that they weren't doing before to help all of us get control of migration in the hemisphere. amna: those are long-term solutions, mr. secretary. what are you worried about in the medium-term? >> some are long-term, but of course, many things are immediate. for example, just in recent months, we struck an agreement with mexico that's very important, where mexico has agreed to take a 1000 people a day who come, who come across and don't have lawful status in the united states, from four countries, from venezuela, from

nicaragua, from haiti, and from cuba. at the same time, we are working closely with other countries to be able to repatriate people who come across unlawfully sending them back on flights, and we are also sending the message out that, no, the border is not open, and on the contrary, do not put yourself in the hands of smugglers. do not pay these exorbitant costs that come with trying to get here. do not risk their lives, because it will not work. and finally, one of the new programs that we are instituting and that you will see come to fruition in the weeks ahead are something we are calling regional processing centers. this gives people an opportunity in their own countries to make a determination about whether they are eligible legally to come to the united states by one of the various lawful pathways that exist. for example, to get a work visa. to be reunited with family, to qualify as a refugee, and making

that accessible. making that available to people gives them an opportunity in their own countries to find out if they can come to the united states lawfully, instead, again, of making the incredibly after this journey all the way to our border with all of the dangers and costs that come with that only to find out they cannot get in. amna: there is a new transit rule and asylum rule going into effect. i went to ask you about it. basically bars anyone from seeking asylum here in the united states if they didn't first seek protection in another country that they pass through on their way to the u.s. as you know, immigration advocates say this basically mirrors a rule that the trump administration put into place that was later struck down in the courts. but i am curious from your perspective, what is the safe third option for people making this dangerous trek where you would have them seek protection first before they get to the u.s.? >> well, this does go to the shared sense of responsibility that we're trying to build across the hemisphere.

and to the extent someone is going through a country where there's an opportunity to seek asylum and they haven't avail themselves of that opportunity, we're saying you need to do that, but we're not just saying that. we are also working with these countries to strengthen their own silent systems -- asylum systems, to strengthen the protections that they offered to migrants as well as to strengthen opportunity, so that people who may choose to avail themselves of asylum and a third country have something to go to and something to look toward. amna: to that point, mr. secretary, pardon the interruption, i know your time is limited but what countries would you consider a safe option? >> i don't want to get into it today, i don't want to get into a list of countries, but i can say for example with mexico we're working very closely and , we have been for some period of time in helping them to to strengthen their own asylum system in mexico, for example. right now, there are in parts of the country labor shortages that they're interested in meeting through migration done lawfully. so if we can support that, that may be one opportunity for people.

amna: mr. secretary, with all due respect to you, that mexico's murder rate is four times that of the united states. your own state department has issued several travel warnings. do not travel warnings for a number of states across mexico for u.s. citizens. why would that be considered a safe option for anyone making that journey? >> it's, as you know, a vast country with big differences depending on where you are in the country. so a lot depends on what part of the country we're talking about. but i cite that simply as one example of work that we're doing with countries across the hemisphere to strengthen the protections that they offer, to strengthen their own asylum systems, as well as to cooperate with us as necessary on repatriations, even as we are working to expand legal pathways to this country. amna: i would like to ask you about ukraine. ukrainian president up a lot of your zelenskyy said the west had not delivered enough armored vehicles for them to launch a counteroffensive. he said they do have in place what they need to continue to be successful in regaining territory. so how should we understand

that? >> well, from day one and even before day one, we've been working overtime to try to make sure that ukraine had in its hands what it needs to defend itself against the russian aggression. first, when we saw it coming, we wanted to make sure that they had what they needed if it came. and indeed with the stingers and javelins that we provided going back to before the russian aggression, they were able to repel the efforts to take kiev and take the whole country at every step along the way. ever since we've worked with now more than 50 countries to adjust, to adapt, depending on the nature of the fight, where it was, what was needed to make sure that, again, they had what they needed. and it is a process. and we're working literally every single day with the ukrainians and with this coalition of countries to make sure they have support. if there are gaps, if there are shortages, they'll tell us and we will make every effort to make good on them. amna: they have been asking and requesting these longer range missiles from the us up to 185 mile range.

the us has so far refused those requests, but british officials say they wilsend to ukraine missiles with 180 mile range, which is basically the same. what's the us argument right now for refusing to send those to ukraine? >> that is precisely why we have a coalition of countries that are supporting ukraine. different countries will do different things depending on their own capacities, depending on their own technology, depending on what makes the most sense. so we've provided some things uniquely to ukraine through this process. other countries may do things different than what we're doing. the question is, does the the whole thing add up to what ukraine needs? and we are determined that it do so. amna: so you support the british decision then, there's n fear of -- no fear of escalation with the british providing those longer-range missiles? >> all of this, again, is done through a coalition and coordinate a process. secretary austin's been leading that for for many months now. and as i said before, it's not only the weapons systems, it's the training, because you can give someone a great weapon system if they don't know how to use it, it's not going to do them much good.

it's the maintenance, because if they don't know how to maintain it, you give it to them and it falls apart in seven days, it is not going to do you much good. and it is understanding how to use all of these things in a cohesive and effective plan. combined arms, all of these things are what we have been working on, and we are doing it in a coordinated way. different countries take different pieces of this. amna: as you know, president zelenskyy criticized the us after those intelligence leaks by the junior airman jacques teixeira in massachusetts, calling them not beneficial to the reputation of the united states. do you believe that the u.s. intelligence community fully has its arms around the extent of that leak? >> we are as always, working overtime to make sure that we are protecting the information that needs to be protected, including in this instance and also more broadly. and we have had conversations with partners around the world about this, making clear to them the importance that we attach to it. i have got to say, in the many,

many meetings, engagements, trips i have been on since this incident, it has almost never come up from one of our partners. in fact, i brought it up just to reassure people that we are intensely focused on this and making sure that the information that we have is protected. but the other side of the equation is this. allies and partners around the world know the extraordinary value of the information that we are able to develop. they know how important it has been to them, and they want to make sure that we preserve it. amna: that is is us secretary of state antony blinken joining us tonight. secretary blinken, thank. please come back soon. >> thanks, good to be with you. ♪ amna: in the day's other headlines, the end of the covid health emergency also put an end to vaccine mandates for federal employers and contractors.

extra food aid and automatic re-enrollment in medicaid are expiring as well. the nation's covid death toll has stopped 1.1 one million, and the virus is still killing about 1000 americans each week. a second debt limit meeting between president biden and congressional leaders has been postponed from tomorrow to next week. the white house announced it late today. the president hosted an initial meeting on tuesday, but there was no immediate sign of progress toward averting default. now, both sides say the delay is a sign that staff negotiators are making progress. the supreme court of pakistan has ordered imran khan's release. it declared the former prime minister's arrest tuesday on corruption charges was illegal. his detention sparked some of pakistan's most violent unrest in years. at least 10 people were killed, with more than 2,000 arrested. khan's supporters cheered the court's ruling today. they said it corrected a mistake that never should have happened. >> imran khan's release proves

we knew the truth. we are pleased with the court's decision. if they had not released him, we would have spilled the last drop of our blood for him. we will stand firm. amna: there was no word on exactly when khan will be released, but pakistan's interior minister vowed to arrest him again. the fighting between israel and islamic jihad shows no sign of ending. palestinian rocket fire from gaza claimed its first israeli victim this week -- a 70-year-old man. in gaza, israeli air strikes killed two more islamic jihad commanders, all told, 29 palestinians have died. israel says several were killed by failed rocket launches. palestinians have fired more than 600 rockets this week. -- the case gained national attention after daniel penny use the chokehold on him who had been screaming during a subway

ride. penny will be arraigned tomorrow. in economic news more signs today that inflationary pressures may be easing. the labor department reports wholesale prices in april were up 2.3% from one year earlier, the smallest annual increase in two years. a report on wednesday showed retail inflation is also slowing. on wall street, stocks had a mosey down day. the dow jones industrial average lost 221 points to close at 33,309. the s&p 500 slipped seven. still to come on the newshour. how new regulations could force power plants to drastically cut emissions. a cnn town hall highlights the media struggle without undercover former president trump and his repeated lies. state republicans were to sign a constitutional amendment aimed to protect reproductive rights, plus much more. ♪ >> this is the pbs newshour from

weta studios in washington and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. geoff: title 42, the pandemic era ruled that serve two presidents as a border policy mandate will expire one minute before midnight eastern time as congress is up against another ticking clock with the debt limit impasse threatening the national and global economies. texas republican grace min chip roy is a influential voice in the house freedom congress and joins us now from capitol hill. welcome back to the newshour. >> great to be on. geoff: house republicans pass this immigration bill today. it is heavily focused on enforcement, not expected to get a boat in the senate, which democrats control, but it does reflect republican immigration priorities. how would disability alleviate the pressure that border communities are facing right now and strengthen border protections?

>> first of all, i would not say it addresses immigration. it is designed to be a border security focused piece of legislation. it is designed to force the administration to do what current law requires the president to do, which is to maintain operational control of the border. they are losing control. i have gotten text messages today from border agents and dbs telling me they are effectively at a broken arrow situation. they have got overrun facilities, chinese nationals coming across, that they have lost control of being able to maintain it. you have el paso that have declared a state of emergency, townsville, laredo, san antonio is preparing for overwhelming amounts of migrants and their centers in san antonio. the reality is we have a crisis at the border that is getting worse, and it is because the president and secretary mayorkas as basically been using loopholes to reports releases to people and united states, which

is causing the flood at the border. our legislation would end the loopholes. it would stop the abuse of asylum and other provisions of law, unaccompanied children and so forth to cause releases in the united states, which is actually endangering the migrants in question. 856 data migrants found the wrenches. 53 cooked in a tractor-trailer in san antonio texas last summer. millions of immigrants coming up to our border, and you have got 72,000 dead americans from fentanyl pouring into our communities. geoff: can anything short of comprehensive immigration reform solve this problem? we heard from the dhs secretary saying there are 20 million displaced people across the western hemisphere. at that suggest to me there is no end in sight. >> of course there is, we are is dominated -- sovereign nation.

our democratic colleagues do not believe we are a sovereign nation. we do have doors for people to come here legally, we have asylum protections and the bill we passed today allowsor asylum to be claimed and processed. what it does not allow is for people to bum rush our border and get released into united states. the fact that there were lots of people in the world who would like to have a better job, god bless them, i do not begrudge them, but we are undermining the rule of law that causes people to want to come to this country. we are empowering china. talk to the moms, fentanyl moms who lost their kids that i had breakfast with in austin. talk to the parents of the four dead children in my school district where my kids live. who have lost their kids to fentanyl. talk to them. talk to the thousands of grieving families that have lost their loved ones to fentanyl because we are allowing china to have control of our border, because the cartels have control of our border. you could stop it right now with

our legislation. there are 12 people that stand between chaos and security, and 11 democrats in the senate and the democratic president in the white house. geoff: i went to ask you about the debt ceiling impasse. the meeting has been pointed to next week. i spoke with the democratic house leader on this program yesterday and asked if congress could save the debt ceiling will democrats and republicans arrive at a budget agreement on parallel tracks, that with the two are not directly linked, everybody gets what they want and everyone can claim victory. he says democrats are ready to have that discussion. our house republicans? >> i would have to talk to hakeem. if you get to the end result where we reduce spending and do what we need to do to stop the fiscal insanity while we manage and figure out the debt ceiling along the terms of the deal that we throughout, certainly would have to have a conversation to gets us to the end result, but we will not negotiate against ourselves.

they need to come forward with the proposal and figure out how we are going to get there. you want to have a short-term debt ceiling increase to do it? that will cause something to. we will not just to a three-month extension, which will also be a cleaning tension borrowing more money without physical forms. we could buy some time to get there, i am open to ideas, but what we will not do is back away from what we put out as our proposal. the president needs to do -- just after the play. as he did as a senator. it has been clear you need to come to the table without raising the debt ceiling with a blank check and actually getting fundamental fiscal reforms. geoff: you worry -- were a leading opponent of kevin mccarthy to bid for the house speaker ship and let a group of house republicans to extract concessions from him. is there a universe where kevin mccarthy could bring a clean bill to the floor to raise the debt ceiling with no concessions and keep his speakership? >> he is not going to been --

bring a clean debt ceiling to the door because that is not something republicans got elected to do. geoff: thank you for being with us. >> thank you all. ♪ amna: ukrainian president zelenskyy made a surprise statement today that his country had not yet received enough western armored vehicles to larger counteroffensive. the u.s. and allies have said repeatedly in recent days that ukraine has what it needs, including 90% of promised armored vehicles. nick shepherd examines what the west at a provided at what it still plans to deliver in the near future, including the most advanced tank in the world to help ukraine recapture occupied territory. correspondent: the tank is

described as a steel beast. more than any other military vehicle, it provides firepower. protection. and speed. ukraine didn't have western tanks a year ago. it does now. >> thank you very much from ukraine. correspondent: british challenger tanks. and more than 1550 french, german, woolwich, and other western armored vehicles, and offer more than nine armored combat brigades with some 30,000 soldiers. the u.s. has provided more than 1300 armored vehicles, including bradley's, strikers, and mine resistant troop vehicles, and it will provide 31 m1a1 abrams tanks, set for delivery by the end of the year. >> i think it's clear that it's

sort of the engineering marvel of the tank world if you will. correspondent: retired marine lt. col. michael purcell has extensive combat experience with abrams tanks. he is also a russia expert who has helped u.s. efforts to transform ukraine's military from its soviet origins to western trained and equipped that will culminate in ukraine's upcoming counteroffensive using with the u.s. calls combined arms. >> it's the integration of all arms, right? so aviation, ideally armor, in this case, i tank. and then of course infantry along with what they call the king of the battlefield, artillery. when we talk about combined arms, we think hard about putting the enemy or the opposing force into dilemma. in the sense that if they move, they're going to be exposed to artillery fires. if they stay put, we are pushing forward closer to their location in order to gain advantage. the abrams to me is that one of the greatest, if not the

greatest think on the battlefield. and to me has saved my butt more time then once. correspondent: retired master gunner 1st sergeant david gonzales had 23 years of experience in the abrams, from tank driver, to tank commander, to master gunner and subject matter expert. he fought in iraq in 1991 and again in 2003 and 2004. he says compared to russia's best tanks currently in ukraine, the abrams offers a gun that is stabilized, providing greater firepower on the move and bter optics, especially at night. >> you could see a cigarette several miles away and we could see how many people or how many enemy would come out of their trenches that night to smoke. and that's when we would then pinpoint and maneuver against the enemy to capture the large amounts. correspondent: the abrams' ammunition is stored in a locker behind a sliding door as seen in these videos posted by tankers. if hit, the ammunition is designed to explode upward

through panels to channel the blast outside. meanwhile, it can be loaded in seconds, although not always. and the abrams has faster acceleration and reverse speed than most other tanks. but its engine, is both asset, and liability. it gets one quarter of a mile per gallon. and as seen in this professional animation, the turbine engine in the rear, is similar to a jet engine and runs best off jet fuel. >> it's going to be a huge team effort to keep that thing functional on the battlefield and make sure that it is successful. correspondent: in fact, the abrams can be so difficult to maintain, senior us defense officials opposed sending them, including colin kahl, under secretary of defense for policy, in january. >> and the challenge with the abrams is it is expensive, it is difficult to train on, it is very difficult to sustain and has a huge complicated turbine engine that requires jet ful and frankly, our assessment is just that the abrams is just not

the right capability at this time. correspondent: at least until five days later. pres. biden: today, i am announcing that the united states will be sending 31 abram tanks to ukraine, because it will hence the ukraine's capacity to defend its territory and achieve his strategic objectives. >> it's like owning a ducati. it's got a lot of expensive parts, it is a gas turbine engine and a lot of proprietary systems inherent specifically into the abrams. correspondent: former staff sergeant paul clock was a tank driver, gunner, loader, and commander during an eight year army career, and created a defense analysis organization called tankers. >> the turbine engine is going to be one of the most complicated parts of this thing. it's going to have special seals. it's going to need to be serviced continuously. it's one of those things that's going to require a specialized facility to maintain some of the certain parts of it. it's got a phenomenal optics package, but that optics

package, if something goes wrong with it, it is expensive to replace. correspondent: it sounds like you're worried about whether it's going to be sustainable for the ukrainians. >> indeed. there are a lot of different sensors and proprietary systems that can fail. it is a robust tank, but it needs maintenance. >> in a battleground, you need horsepower. correspondent: the abrams tank was produced in the late 1970's and early 1980's and appeared in army recruiting ads. it was designed to counter the soviet union. but its first real test, came in 1991 during operation desert storm, when the united states kicked the iraqi military out of kuwait. now the abrams will supplement the ukraine's mostly soviet era tanks that are more than twice the age of some of their tankers , as we saw in february. >> they are old, and because they are old, they break all the time. you do not have confidence that your tank is going to work tomorrow. for us to advance, we need weaponry.

correspondent: and with ukraine's weaponry, ukraine's military will have to achieve its most difficult task yet: overrunning well fortified russian soldiers, across a huge front. >> napoleon supposedly said the moral is the physical as three is -- is to the idea if you're one. ukrainian fighting for your life and your family and your homeland, that you've got the american flag, you've got the swedish flag, you've got the german flag represented by the equip and you are operating. and that is a significant psychological boost in my mind. correspondent: whether the booster translates to gains could help determine the war's fate. ♪ geoff: today the environmental protection agency laid out its latest move to cut the greenhouse gasses that are driving climate change, unveiling a sweeping new set of guidelines for the power plants that generate america's electricity. william brangham

has been covering this, and he joins us now. tell us more about this move by the epa. how does this fit within president biden's climate agenda? >> this is the third major move the administration is made to cut greenhouse gas emissions that are heeding this planet to a dangerous degree. the first was the passage of the inflation reduction act. last month the epa issued these very strict rules on auto emissions, and now today we have power plants. the issue with generating electricity in this country is that creates about 25% of all of america's pollution, so it is a big jump. the epa is saying to these power plants and utilities around the country who have got to cut those emissions, and it is got to use existing technology and you have got to do it quickly, as much as 90% in the near future. dba says that the air we breathe will be cleaner and we will make a significant dent in the emissions that we are putting up that are causing climate change.

some environmentalists say the epa needs to do more, but many environmentalists are cheering this move. earlier today i talked to the president and ceo of the natural resources defense council. here is what he had to say. >> the urgency of the climate crisis cannot be overstated. but what we have seen in the past year finally positions the united states to take a leadership role in tackling the crime -- climate crisis. we have seen a historic triple play for climate action. >> he is talking about the urgency, but how will these plants actually do that work? >> the epa is not saying you have to use this particular type of technology. it is worth noting there is a true revolution going on in clean energy. the costs of wind and solar and geothermal are just falling. the venerable wall street firm

lazard did an analysis and said large scale solar and wind utilities can go toe to toe economically not with the dirtiest, cheapest energy sources, so the economic argument is being made. for power plants if there are a couple of ways they can do this. they can mix incomplete or -- mix in cleaner fuels, they can matar the plan or they can use carbon capture and sequestration, which is a fancy way of saying you grab the carbon and stick it underground where it does not cause problems. the tricky part is ccs is not being utilized anywhere in the united states. this is what the industry says it is, look, you are asking us to use this very aggressive rule based in part on a technology we think is not ready for prime time. earlier today i talked to a lawyer who represents a lot of industry edit our associates.

>> there is a very bright future for carbon capture and sequestration. there are big industrial projects, multibillion-dollar projects being constructed, for example, in the midwest to deal with the emissions that come from biofuel production, but in the power sector there are very few examples of commercials: application of ccs. >> that is the industry's arguments. the epa points to a factory in canada operating for 10 years very successfully. they say this technology is ready. geoff: the epa's climate moves have previously been challenged in court. do we expect that this time around? >> 100%. most of those will be driven by industry or the republican attorneys general to very successfully sued the obama clean power plants several years ago and blocked that from happening, so that will definitely happen. you are seeing industry critics

coming out saying this will be too costly for us, too costly for consumers who want to plug-in everything in their homes, and there are also criticisms within the democratic party itself. joe manchin whose own personal fortune is very dependent on coal called this a radical climate agenda. he said these rules are trying to regulate coal and gas plants out of existence. lots of critics are out there. i think it is worth saying in is conversation though that the epa did not just capriciously decide to do this. this is there mandate. the courts have held the sub, legislation has all this up. it is their duty to regulate carbon dioxide emissions. how aggressively they do that is definitely what will be fought over? geoff: thank you so much for that reporting. ♪

geoff: a fierce debate over how journalists should question and cover former president donald trump is unfolding as he seeks another term in the white house. and after a freewheeling and unruly cnn town hall last night where mr. trump spouted lies about the 2020 election, mocked the woman he was found liable of sexually abusing, and dodged policy questions -- all before a lively and supportive audience of new hampshire voters. joining us for perspective is james fallows, a former presidential speechwriter and author of the "breaking the news" newsletter on substack. and mark lukasiewicz, he's a veteran television producer at nbc and abc news, and now the dean of the communications school at hofstra university. thank you both for being with us. mark, i will start with you. you wrote last night donald trump is demonstrably unworthy of the risk cnn chose to take with her live town hall. why was that apparent to you

ahead of time? >> when you stage a live event you are taking a risk, because you are turning over a platform that you have built a relationship of trust with an audience and at least partly you are turning over that platform to the live guest who will say whatever they are going to say. it was completely predictable, completely 100% predictable that donald trump was going to lie, was going to mislead, it was going to obfuscate and try to railroad the moderator, and that is what he did. cnn gave donald trump a platform to do that. i think that is not a transaction news organization should be taking anymore particularly with this candidate. if somebody comes in front of your cameras, and you will deliver your audience to them for uninterrupted like the fire hoses of lies and deception and in this case misogyny and worse, i do not think that is something a news organization should do. geoff: taking marc's point,

donald trump is the republican front runner. he is among the few people who have a clear route to winning the white house again, and the media as to cover him again, so how do we do it smartly and responsibly? >> even though mark and i did not coordinate this at all, i see it just the way he hasn't laid it out. the problem there was the kind of event it was, which was a rush of an event and there was no chance to catch up with the stream of falsehoods donald trump was putting up, even though caitlin collins did her best to be a fact checker. the circumstances did not allow it. i think we have seen the one bright side of this cnn event last night was it shows us what not to do. no one should replicate that, and if donald trump will be on the stage with other republican candidates and perhaps eventually with a democratic candidate, it needs to be under circumstances where there is some rule of reason, some rule of fact where somebody in charge can say here are the rules of

our discussion, here are the questions we will ask, and here are the ways in which we will answer them. that is the only bright side i see. everybody now knows what not to do. geoff: mark, you have the experience of being a former tv news executive who is now acting at a journalism school. are the conventions of traditional journalism good enough for the moment in which we live where you have a candidate who seeks to exploit those conventions, those journalistic standards for his own purposes? >> they are not good enough. i agree with jim, but if we are honest with ourselves we knew what we learned last night four years ago and arguably even eight is a go. i had the misfortune of being a producer of a forum that involved hillary clinton and donald trump. we were greeted in the press for not confronting donald trump live with his stream of lies. this has been going on for a long time.

it donald trump is more than just an unconventional candidate. he is a candidate that does not play by the rules of democracy, the rules of the constitution as everyone saw on january 6, so for journalist to play by traditional roles and think all of this is going to be fine is a real problem. it is a real challenge. he is likely to be the nominee. journalists, we all have a responsibility to cover him, but do we turn over our platforms when we know what the result is going to be, or do we say, no, you have disqualified yourself quite repeatedly abusing our relationship of trust with your audience, so we will put your interview on tape, and then we will see what we do with it. geoff: jim, i see you shaking your head there. how should we in the media covered donald trump or any candidate who displays openly antidemocratic tendencies and essays -- and says things that are demonstrably false?

>> donald trump is a case of one. there are other people who are having antidemocratic policies in this or that state, but i think trump is unique and a unique problem for these journalistic settings in two ways. one is the stream of lies. the other is what we saw in trump's dealings with the crowd last night, when he was intentionally revving them up, appealing to the worst in them, having them left at e. jean carroll, caitlin collins, so there are not other politicians who as really do that when they are on the big stage, so i think that dealing with trump is a problem for dealing with trump and dealing with the rest of the candidates we will have over the next 1.5 years. i think a robust version of our normal rules can apply, then trump has his own set of rules. geoff: donald trump cass the

pursuit of truth is a partisan enterprise. one of the things we saw back in 2000 and 16 in years that followed particularly from legacy organizations was this ever to play down his radicalism, to find euphemisms to between his behavior so the organizations appeared neutral and objective. what are some best practices to guard against that? >> it is a tough question. what you were talking about is normalizing. it is looking at things in our whole history abnormal, out of the norm, out of the realm of expected behavior, and to be in the process started to recognize those as just regular features of the game. i think journalism does have a responsibility to democracy. we exist in a liberal democracy because of the rules and understandings and norms of a liberal democracy, and these are not easy questions, and i am not sitting you're saying i have

every answer to these, because i certainly do not, but these are questions newsrooms have to wrestle with. geoff: jim? >> this is something where i say i case that applies to trump could apply more broadly. it is comfortable for journalist especially for mainstream organizations to be in a central position, to say at one site says this, the other side says that. there are certain things going on originated by trump that we see other places that cannot be fairly described as an other side standoff. i would put the current threat to have the u.s. default on its sovereign debt in that category, and the more that is portrayed as a partisan gridlock where one side says this, the other side says this, the less clearly it is portrayed as a financial threat to the united states. geoff: thank you both for the

thoughtful conversation. i appreciate it. ♪ amna: in the year since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, voters in several states have shown up to overwhelmingly support abortion rights in ballot measures. future efforts to enshrine abortion access in state constitutions could soon face higher hurdles. our laura barron-lopez takes a look at the battle over what appears on the ballot. correspondent: republican legislators in multiple states have proposed measures that would make it harder for voters to change state constitutions. that includes ohio, where, last night, lawmakers scheduled an august special election for a resolution that would require future amendments to receive 60 percent of the vote to be adopted, that's ahead of a pro-abortion rights effort heading to the november ballot. a similar bill is moving through missouri's legislature.

to discuss, i'm joined now by karen kasler of the ohio statehouse news bureau and newshour communities reporter gabrielle hays, who is based in missouri. karen, i went to start with you. currently ohio requires 50% of the vote for ballot initiatives to be reached. this measure would change that to 60% of the vote of the state constitution to be changed. it also requires a number of other things like increasing signatures from 88 counties -- excuse me, from four counties to 88 counties. why are republicans doing this now and why an august special election? >> they say they are doing this to protect ohio's constitution from big money out-of-state special interest area that is the line we have been hearing, but one of the sponsors of the house version of the resolution made it clear in a memo that this was about possible amendments coming forward on

abortion and gerrymandering, gerrymandering relating to oh's congressional and legislative met -- map being ruled unconstitutional. the reproductive rights a member is typically something that looking toward, and they want to get a vote and a 60% threshold in place before voters see that mm in november. correspondent: gabrielle, missouri is pushing through a similar measure that would raise the threshold for ballot initiatives to 57 percent vote in support to make it into the constitution. republicans say the state constitution should not be malleable. >> i just hold the constitution as something sacred. i think it is a living document, but i do not think it is an ever-growing document, and missouri's right now is an ever growing document. and i personally think statute is a good place to put a lot of things but i think our constitution is pretty sacred. correspondent: how likely will

this effort make it onto the november ballot? >> that is a good question. i think that voters have voted on ballot measures in the last couple of years, right? so we have seen voters use their voices to pass certain pieces of legislation or policy that did not make it through the legislature. on one hand we have voters that may be voted against those ballot measures that passed in previous years. we are talking about one of, whether it was medical or recreational among other issues. however, there are also plenty of voters who were not very happy about this being something that the legislature is looking at. critics argue that it is antidemocratic, that it is taking a wait the people's ability to share their voices, to participate in the democratic system, so it is not something that ms. ari's voters are taking lightly. correspondent: karen,

republicans have admitted this goes beyond abortion to redistricting, democrats in the state say this is about something much bigger than that. >> this is not about democrats or republicans. it is not just about being pro-choice or antiabortion. at this vote is about democracy. those that respected, and those that do not. it is about whether or not you truly want the people of ohio to have power. correspondent: what are voters in ohio saying about this? >> depends on which side they are on. the number of supporters tended to be aligned with conservative groups, evangelical christian groups, antiabortion organizations, gun rights groups. they say the constution is kind of the argument you heard in missouri, it is sacred and it should be difficult to amend the constitution, democrats have been saying this is about these big money special interests,

because it is actually republicans using that big out-of-state special interest money from a republican billionaire from illinois to push forward for this vote, and this takes away voter's voice. 60% means that 40% of voters can actually dictate what will happen for the rest of the state. they are concerned about how this takes away essentially the voice of each person for each vote. correspondent: are you expecting any legal challenges in ohio? >> there is always the possibility of a legal challenge. last month there was a law that took effect that eliminated most august special elections, so the argument is there had to be allowed to create a new august special election for this to be voted on, and that is not exactly what happened. i imagine there probably will be litigation. correspondent: gabrielle, you mentioned previously voters the

rate ballot initiative legalized recreational marijuana, they expanded medicaid coverage. as you'll reporting show a majority of voters who may be opposed to this initiative? >> i can definitely say that it seems that voters are concerned about it. went recreational marijuana passed last year, that garnered 53% of the vote, more than one million missourians who voted for that. these three things you mentioned whether we are talking about recreational marijuana, the expansion of medicaid, medical marijuana, all of these things were passed by belly initiatives -- ballot initiatives in the recent couple of years, so with that said voters are concerned that they would not have the ability not only to participate in a democratic system, but also further to essentially be a check on their own general assembly if they feel as though

they are not passing bills that they want to see past. correspondent: since the fall of roe, we have seen a number of voters have supported initiatives that increase access to restrict -- to abortions while republican's are restricting access. >> i think republicans believe this will happen, but the support from hundreds of groups are opposed to this idea. there is a prediction this might not go as well as republicans think it might. correspondent: karen and gabriel, thank you so much for your time. >> great to be here. ♪ amna: remember there's a lot more online at pbs.org/newshour, including a look at a global challenge for citizen scientists to document and share the nature in their cities. geoff: and join us again here

tomorrow night, where we will have a conversation with actor tom hanks about his debut novel. and that is the newshour for tonight. i'm geoff bennett amna: and i'm amna nawaz. on behalf of the entire newshour team, thank you for joining us. >> major funding for the pbs newshour as been provided by -- ♪ the ongoing support of these inviduals and institutions and friends of the newshour, including who and patricia u.n.. >> qnod is a proud supporter of public television. the world awaits, a world of labor, diverse destinations, and immersive experiences. a world of entertainment and british style. all with white star service.

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one giant leap for mankind. ♪ christiane: and welcome to amanpour and company. here is what is coming up. >> this verdict is for all women. this is not about me. christiane: it is not about the money. eugene carroll says she has gotten her life back after a jury finds donald trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming her i ask a new yorker magazine writer at large what this moment means for the #metoo movement. also ahead -- >> tight election race in turkey after two decades of power. will it be the country's cost-of-living crisis that finally proves president erdogan's undoing. i asked politicians on both sides of the guide -- aisle.