♪ geoff: -- amna: good evening. i'm amna nawaz. geoff: and i'm geoff bennett. on the "newshour" tonight, montana becomes the first state to fully ban the social media app tiktok over privacy concerns. amna: the death of a migrant child in united states custody highlights the struggles with overcrowding at the southern border. geoff: and china draws scrutiny for setting up police stations in other countries, including the us, to monitor and control chinese citizens abroad. >> these stations are the tip of the iceberg of what is a massive, massive campaign to really crackdown on dissent around the world. ♪ >> major funding for the pbs

newshour has been provided by -- >>ple eyich tor tsehere athe stt energizes me. i am thriving by helping others every day. people who know know bdo. >> 420 years consumer so there has been offering no contract wireless plans designed to a people do more of what they like. our u.s. customer base service team can help find a plan that takes you. to learn more visit consumercel lular.tv. >> the candida fund looking to transform through investments in ideas. learn more atcandida.org. carnegie organization of new york, supporting democratic

engagement in the advancement of international peace and security at carnegie.org. and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. ♪ >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. geoff: welcome to the newshour. the push for a deal to raise the federal debt ceiling and curb spending dominates washington again tonight. house speaker kevin mccarthy is calling for a tentative agreement by the weekend to avoid a possible national default on june 1.

amna: senate majority leader chuck schumer says senators can return from an upcoming recess, if need be. but lawmakers also argued today about whether a clause in the constitution's 14th amendment requires paying public debts and makes the debt ceiling moot. >> is imposing the 14th amendment a perfect solution? no, it is not, but using the 14th amendment would allow the united states to continue to pay its bills on time and without delay, prevent an economic catastrophe, and prevent devastating cuts to some of the most vulnerable people in this country. >> it's ridiculous. it's just a way to avoid responsibility. unfortunately, that happens a lot around here. we need to hold people accountable for doing their jobs. and that's just an attempt to make short shrift of their responsibility. amna: so far, the biden administration has played down the idea of invoking the 14th amendment. geoff: president biden kicked

off his japan trip today with a heavy focus on ukraine and china. he met with prime minister fumio kishida in hiroshima. they talked about support for ukraine's military and defense cooperation against beijing's growing military power. the leaders will join other members of the group of 7 nations tomorrow, for a 3-day summit. in ukraine, a new volley of 30 russian cruise missiles rained down overnight, but ukrainian officials say they shot down all but one. the capital, kyiv, was targeted for a ninth time this month. meantime, debris from intercepted missiles struck industrial sites in the southern port city of odesa. at least one person was killed. the toll of a flood disaster in northern italy is still climbing after torrential rain caused dozens of rivers to burst their banks. the worst is in the region of emilia-romagna, where 13 people have died and 10,000 have fled their homes. rescue teams today scoured swamped streets, searching for the many still missing. the flooding submerged 5,000 farms, plus homes and churches, leaving residents in shock.

we haven't imagined something this big. we've found ourselves with more than one meter of water in front of the house. we were stranded on the second floor and waited for it to be over. a lot of things went wrong, but it could have been worse. geoff: some areas received half their average annual rainfall in just 36 hours. it's the latest in a series of extreme weather events to strike italy. a stand-off in pakistan intensified today, between former prime minister imran khan ad police. they've surrounded khan's house in lahore, demanding that he hand over 40 supporters wanted in violent protests. he denies sheltering anyone. local officials say at least 3,400 people have already been arrested in the wake of the protests. thousands of jewish nationalists paraded in jerusalem today, taunting palestinians and marking israel's capture of the city in 1967. police were out in force to prevent any new violence. many of the marchers chanted

anti-arab slogans as they traveled the main palestinian thoroughfare in the old city. back in this country, the pandemic-era exodus from u.s. cities appears to be slowing or even reversing. new census data finds that overall, metropolitan areas grew by .40 of 1% last year. at the same time, the rate of population loss in new york and los angeles dropped by half from the year before. the dallas-fort worth area showed the greatest growth. and, on wall street, upbeat corporate earnings reports pushed stocks higher. the dow jones industrial average gained 115 points to close near 33,536. the nasdaq rose 188 points, 1.5%. the s & p 500 added 39 points, 1 percent. still to come on the "newshour." a look at the economic risks should congress fail to raise the debt ceiling. hollywood faces a larger work stoppage as the actors' union threatens to strike alongside writers. and the covid 19 pandemic leads to a nationwide uptick in homeschooling.

♪ >> this is the pbs newshour from weta eat studios in washington and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. amna: montana became the first state to ban tiktok yesterday, citing fears that the app's chinese-owned parent company could be providing americans' data to the chinese government. montana could be a testing ground for other state and national leaders also considering bans on the nation's fastest-growing app. correspondent: the first of its kind law bans mobile of from hosting tiktok on their platforms and montana. violations could mean fine for the companies and for tiktok is someone is offered the ability to access the platform or download the app. the bill's signing came after months of debate in the state legislature, with proponents arguing that the app and its

chinese based parent company bytedance is a threat to national security. >> this app steals data from users and its ability to share that data with the chinese communist party is unacceptable infringes on montana's rights to privacy. >> there is nothing stopping the social media company based in america from collecting the same data, selling it to a chinese organization, and then then being held to that company. correspondent: the company has repeatedly denied it sure is user information with the chinese government. a tiktok spokeswoman push back in a statement saying the law infringes on the first amendment rights of montana residents and that the company will defend the rights of our users inside and outside of montana. while montana is the first day to outright ban the app, it is not the only one to take action. tiktok has been banned on

federal government devices. in march president biden urged tiktok to the vest itself from chinese owners or face a nationwide ban. u.s. lawmakers grow the company's ceo in a heated hearing. >> your platform should be banned. >> tiktok needs to be an american company with american values. >> bytedance is not owned by the chinese government. an american company on american soil overseen by american personnel. correspondent: chinese officials said they would firmly oppose a forced sale. montana's ban is scheduled to take a place on january 2024. in a statement aclu of montana said the governor and the state legislature trampled on the free speech of hundreds of thousands of montanans who use the apps to express themselves, gather

information, and render small business in the name of anti-chaney's -- chinese sentiment. a group of content creators filed suit against montana in an effort to block the ban of the app. following the events closely is bobby allyn, he covers technology and business for npr. before we get into the legal battles, i want to talk to you about montana's move specifically targeting one at -- app. have we seen anything like that? >> no, there is really no precedent for this. tech experts are stunned this happened at all. it is going to be hard to enforce, because the way that this technology operates is if you take out your phone and you pull up tiktok, it pains a cell phone tower that talks to tiktok servers. imagine you are in a border town in wyoming or idaho, and you are

in montana -- near montana and you pull up tiktok and it is being to the server and you cannot access it because of this ban. there is a lot of technical -- this will be a hard thing to really enforce because of that. amna: they are not going after users. they are going after companies, they are holding companies in the platforms responsible, which would seem to imply google and apple would have to comply for this enforcement to work. do we know they would want to cooperate? >> apple and google have not said anything about the montana tiktok ban, but the penalties would be assessed to them. they could be fined $10,000 per day if they do not block tiktok from being downloaded on google play and apple app stores. the question is are they going to comply, are they going to resist.

this will play out in the courts, but this is spitting a huge roar between montana state officials and google. amna: we have the first lawsuit, five tiktok content creators suing to overturn the law. is there any precedent that tells us how the courts might view this issue? >> it is going to be a balancing act between the national security concerns and the first amendment rights of tiktok users and creators, and i think courts have said is directly expressing yourself politically or otherwise on a social media platforms is protected speech under the first amendment. that said, there are some ways in which the government can restrict speech if an app or social media platforms is found to be providing material support to terrorists. you can put restrictions on speech in that situation. supporters of tiktok says there

is no convincing evidence tiktok poses a national security threat , and a lot of years the chinese government can use tiktok to spy or lunch disinformation campaigns is theoretical. this will come down to the federal judge that takes a look at this case and decides is it more of a national security threat, or should we protect the free speech rights of users. amna: even if it is not fully enforceable or struck down in the courts, are you already seeing any kind of impact when it comes to usage? >> you are, i am seeing tiktok users who have large followings saying follow me on youtube. let's go to instagram. let's go to read it, some other platform that is going to be safe come january 2024. tiktok is saying, listen everyone in montana, do not worry. we will block this in the courts. tiktok is encouraging tiktok

users to just go about your day as you usually do, use the platform as much as you want, but users are looking for alternatives, because this is real. the governor signed a law banning tiktok within the borders of montana. if you were someone who derives all of your. ncsome of those creators to the course today and sued montana saying you are depriving us of the ability to be freely expressive on this platform and depriving us of income. amna: we have heard a number of other leaders at the state and national level expressing concerns over tiktok. do you see other states following suit? >> we saw states ban tiktok on government devices, and after a few did many followed suit. in states that have governors that are republicans and democrats, this issue about an ascendant china, china being a real national security threat is a real bipartisan concern, so a

lot of states and the biden white house will be watching to see how this plays out in the courts. if the courts to approve this, you are going to bleed for sure that other governors are going to follow suit, and the biden white house might even be watching to see, hey, if the courts allow the montana ban to go through, maybe we can push a national ban. amna: that is bobby allyn joining us tonight. good to talk to you. ♪ geoff: for the second time this month, an underage migrant has died in u.s. custody. u.s. customs and border protection said late yesterday that an 8-year-old girl at a border patrol facility in texas experienced a medical emergency and later died. cbp is investigating the incident.

the announcement came just days after the end of the pandemic-era program known as title 42. officials say the number of encounters with migrants crossing the u.s.-mexico border has fallen by more than half since last week. we're joined now by kica matos, the president of the national immigration law center. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. geoff: the associated press reports the little girl was from panama and that she had heart albums. she had surgery for those are problems in panama, and that she crossed with her father, mother, and two older siblinin facilityr family were being detained is one of the busiest quarters for migrant crossings. tell us about these facilities? can they adequately address the manifold issues that families and children present with? >> first, my heart goes out to

the family of that little girl. i was in the border just last week witnessing the end of title 42 and the impact on the asylum ban the biden administration has imposed. what i will tell you about customs and border patrol facilities is that they are like black boxes. lawyers do not have access to them, advocates do not have access to them, and we know the conditions right now are extremely overcrowded. the history of cbp facilities are stories of inhumane conditions that no human being should ever have to confront. geoff: before title 42 was lifted, u.s. officials said they were preparing for as many as 11,000 people crossing the border a day. at the end of title 42 encounters drug to less than 5000 people.

what accounts for that? >> i do not know the answer to that, that i will tell you i was on the border at the end of last week, and what i saw were thousands of migrants following the regulations that were imposed by the united states government, patiently waiting for their appointments on the mexican side of the border. there was a lot of lack of information, misinformation, disinformation. when we talk to a lot of migrants what we heard were stories of plain desperate conditions, grabbing their families and running for their lives to the border so that they could present themselves lawfully to seek asylum in the united states. geoff: there are people who safety ability for migrants to show up on u.s. soil and apply for asylum, that that process is sacrosanct and that the administration both with their deterrence policies and now

establishing alternate routes for people to claim asylum runs afoul of u.s. values, american values. how do you see it? >> it not only runs afoul of u.s. values and what we stand for as a nation, it is in violation of our own domestic laws and our own obligations under international law. under u.s. law, anybody who seeks asylum has a right to come to the u.s. and present themselves whether they do it at an airport, a port of entry, whether they cross the border and do it, we have an obligation under u.s. laws and our own allegiance to international laws to do that. this asylum ban, and i am using those words intentionally, it makes it impossible for people to access political asylum in the united states. geoff: it appears those policies are working.

is there another way to achieve both goals? >> we have an obligation to allow people to present themselves to seek asylum. that does not mean everybody who seeks asylum to the united states should be granted asylum. we have an obligation to follow our own domestic laws. i should also note that we have a deeply broken immigration system. the last time we saw comprehensive immigration legislation take place in this country wasn't 1986 under ronald reagan. what that means is we have for decades dealt with a deeply broken immigration system that has very few avenues for people to legally come into the united states. we hear a lot of people saying why can't they do it illegally -- legally? our system is broken and congress refuses to act. geoff: for a long time border grocers were single men, and that is shifted over time to

include families and unaccompanied children. have the policies, the resources, the infrastructure adequately shifted to account for that change? >> i spent four days last week in the border, and we met with people who are on the mexican side of the border waiting patiently to be given appointments. we visited encampments, shelters , we met with families, families with young children. the conditions in these encampments are deplorable. they are inhumane. there is no basic infrastructure. in one encampment we went to there were two porta parties for approximately 1200 people. a lot of the people in these engagements rely on assistance from nonprofit organizations cobbling resources together to try to meet very basic needs. we have an obligation, we have

the resources, we have the ability to provide infrastructure so that these families while they wait to be processed have the very basic standards that human decency requires, and we are not providing that as a government. geoff: thanks for being with us. >> thank you for having me. ♪ amna: congressional and white house negotiators met again today as they tried to meet -- reach a deal on the debt ceiling. president biden and speaker mccarthy says they believe they can get to an agreement in the coming days, and fears of a default still loom since both sides remain divided on a number of issues, including federal benefits and spending cuts. some experts are waiting what could happen in the case of default. our economics correspondent paul

solomon is our god. -- guide. correspondent: the debt ceiling clock is ticking, but what would happen if the was defaulted on its debt? that has not happened since the treasury was established in 1789. the debt ceiling is the captain on the total amount of money at the federal government is authorized by congress to borrow, created in 1917, it made up about 10% of u.s. gdp compared to this year's projected 100 plus percent. at long last a default? >> that is a big deal. that's send shocks waves throughout the world. correspondent: not only that says simon johnson former chief economist. >> it impacts national security badly. that is the cataclysmic crisis

everyone fears. correspondent: a longtime bond trader. >> there is no other country in the world that separates the process of appropriating funds to spend from the process of determining the financing, the amount of debt. correspondent: he thinks u.s. debt default would be a financial armageddon. >> it lends itself or a political confrontation. >> what is most alarming is we do not really know what would happen. correspondent: which is wendy adelbert thinks treasury will not default but will make regular payments to current bondholders. >> what is assumed is it will make the principal and interest payment so that it would not strictly be in default on u.s. treasury securities. correspondent: but the treasury would need to stop paying someone? >> the u.s. taxpayer owes a lot of people money on any given

day. we owe anybody who is treasury securities, we owe them interest , but we also owe doctors and hospitals money who have traded -- treated medicare and medicaid patients. we are money because they have done work on the u.s. taxpayer. we owe people money who are entitled to benefits. correspondent: 70 million americans receive social security benefits, more than one in five of us. isn't the money supplemental? >> some people can wait to pay, but many tens of millions of people cannot afford to wait. correspondent: for 40% and if a series social security is their sole means of support. >> cannot buy food, pay essential medical bills, that would be a horrible human cost. correspondent: what about america's millions of federal employees, 2 million military personnel, postal workers, and

tsa security at the airport and employees at our national parks? >> anyone living paycheck-to-paycheck, if you do not give them a paycheck for one week or a couple of days, how will they feed their families? how will they buy gasoline and pay rent. if you do not pay rent you get evicted pretty quickly. correspondent: workarounds have been proposed. mint a trillion dollar coins. interest-only treasury bonds that had nothing to the debt total. new high interest bonds sold at a steep discount that would profit the treasury on the books and reduce the total debt rather than risk anesthetizing you with the details, suffice it to say all such gimmicks will wind up in court. >> who wants to buy those

treasury securities knowing they might prove to be illegal? and canceled. doing any of these workarounds creates its own flavor of chaos. correspondent: what is likely to happen? >> i expect this to get resolved one second before the ultimate deadline when the united states will start the process of getting into default of one or other forms of payments they need to make. in theory, it does not make any sense to reach an agreement before the last second. correspondent: when i asked wendy, former chief economist, what are your odds as to whether or not this is resolved before zero hour? >> i put the odds of this happening and getting to the point where treasury has two double payments and make one payment and not another one, i put hi odds on that. correspondent: this trader has a

game theory from the game of chicken, two cars coming straight at each other. >> to some extent the republicans are about to throw the steering will out the window and they can only go straight and they were forced biden to basically do something. correspondent: simon johnson does not expect to head-on collision. >> the risk of a serious accident that could have massive damage to the economy in the world. it is something we should worry about. correspondent: my own reaction too, no kidding. ♪ amna: the fbi arrested two chinese citizens in new york last month, accusing them of running a secret police station to watch and intimidate chinese dissidents living overseas.

there are more than 100 of these stations around the world that researchers say beijing uses to silence its critics. nick schifrin and producer teresa cebrian aranda report. >> nearly 6000 miles from beijing on a quiet street in madrid, a nondescript office claims to offer assistance for chinese citizens. but the reality is more shadowy. a chinese dissident leads as to what he calls the source of chinese repression that begins with an invitation. >> here it says we should be careful with telecommunications fraud, that if you receive a suspicious message you should get in touch with the chinese embassy. correspondent: but lee says the only suspicious messages came from chinese authorities and were sent in order to silence. >> i am sure they did a systemic campaign against me later by these chinese associations, and

now we know there are secret lee stations hidden inside chinese associations. when the pandemic began he created a youtube channel to expose what he calls the truth about the chinese communist party. correspondent: and he on far right spanish tv -- appears on far right spanish tv. >> i had a rebel opinion because i think everyone is a victim of chinese communism. we have to hold the party accountable. it withheld information by censoring doctors who blew the whistle on covid and through journalists in jail. correspondent: he says these posters circulated on chinese social media calling for him to drink tea, that is to submit to interrogation by chinese officials. he received death threats, and his family back in china was intimidated. >> my sister called and asked,

brother, what did you do because the police came to our house with many police events. they came in and asked where is huan lee. my mom was arrested. she spent three days in jail. correspondent: this association is in a residential neighborhood near madrid's chinatown. inside a photo of a chinese county, the general association in spain. international researchers say in 2021 the association to work chinese mainland police to question a chinese entrepreneur as seen in this video posted by chinese officials. beijing says he was persuaded to return to china to face charges. >> there are many dissidents in madrid, and many are asking what we do to protect ourselves? in the case of an extradition?

the chinese communist party controls all chinese associations. correspondent: there association website says it protects the interest of chinese overseas, and chinese state media says police stations in 11 countries including spain. >> beijing is quite explicit in what it intends are when it conducts oppression activities. it was to control overseas communities, but to a larger extent it wants to control the narrative worldwide about the chinese communist party. correspondent: laura hart is director of a human rights group first revealed the cover police organizations using open source documents. they found more than 100 chinese police outpost set up by authorities from four chinese regions. >> these are station centers that have not been declared to most governments where they are

operating. correspondent: as far as you can tell, how extensive is the separate across the globe? >> these stations are the tip of the iceberg of what is a massive campaign to crack down around the world. correspondent: xi jinping is targeted critics inside china and overseas. he has betrayed his efforts as a way to fight crime and corruption. beijing's advocates argue they have every right to target chinese overseas. jin is the former editor-in-chief of a communist aligned tabloid. >> most countries have cooperated with china's pursuit. the accusation is an old-fashioned way by demonizing tenant by calling terminals

overseas of political dissidents. >> we will not tolerate the chinese government's persecution. correspondent: countries are exposing chinese tactics. an investigation revealed federal charges that accused two of running a police station in new york's chinatown autograph of china's ministry of public security. >> the officers charged today are not focused on preventing crime. rather the complaints charge these mbs officers and engaging the transnational repression schemes. correspondent: when i arrived in the united states i thought there would be fewer threats, but it feels like the chinese communist party is everywhere in this country, and that threats are very severe. >> this is a prominent pro-democracy activists living in los angeles. he criticizes chinese human rights abuses.

and the silencing of chinese doctors who blew the whistle on kobe. -- covid. he was tortured in a psychiatric hospital for advocating for better labor rights. he says in california chinese agents to record his protests and worse. he says he has been attacked five times, and was once stabbed. >> in my home my windows have been destroyed. these threats of harassment have brought me to a dark place. as victims we experience tremendous psychological a pressure and a deep sense of repression that is difficult to express. they work very efficiently. for example, if we hold protests, even before the end chinese agents will have visited some of their homes and threatened and intimidated their families. senior fbi officials believe the same actors of intimidate also

intimidate online. on twitter jea received death threats. this message says i will shoot and kill him. beijing uses a box to target chinese critics with thousands of messages. as your google removed more than 50,000 accounts made by a chinese influence operation. researchers believe the same operation imitated safeguard defenders to conceal their reports. >> chinese authorities are not completely stupid. they will do as much of this through online means, because that does insulate chinese actors from accountability. correspondent: activist including yuan lee says there messages will not be obscured. he hopes to build his own association that protects, not targets dissidents. >> i can no longer take a step back. i hope this personal sacrifice i made will be worth it. correspondent: even his

country's, activists no beijing is still watching. ♪ geoff: the actors union -- sag-aftra -- has called for a strike authorization vote. if the strike is approved, actors could join the more than 11,000 writers guild members already on the picket line -- putting even more pressure on studios and networks. the ongoing writers strike has halted production on movies and scripted series like netflix's stranger things, appletv's severance and showtime's yellowjackets. late night shows have gone dark. for more on the strike and what's at stake, i'm joined by two television writers and wga

members, sal gentile and jeane phan wong. how are you and other writers fearing? >> we are asking for less than 2% of what they make for content when it comes down to it and sustainable wages to be able to have a career in entertainment is what we are asking for, and i was just out on the picket line this morning and felt really good with morale. i had a two hour commute because i am housesitting out of town. it felt good to see everyone and especially when people would drop off food. correspondent: streaming has dramatically transformed the industry. this is a prolific era in american entertainment. one would think compensation would reflect that. why is that? >> there is a huge influence in the tech industry on streaming and the way that writers are being compensated.

television and a new feature writer, and did television we are paid weekly, and the average number of weeks that a writer is working as gone down a lot, and often times writers are forced to stretch the money that they make in such a short amount of time over a longer time, and even some writers, some contracts with options and writers cannot find other work. there is a lot that we are asking for. more than a one-step deal, because there is a lot of free work, and i know that sounds insane, but there was a lot of just free labor being asked as a courtesy, and so basically a lot of the tech industry as this devalued ask for more work, free

work for less money and asking writers to stretch our salaries over a long time. correspondent: you working late night, that is a high-pressure job. long hours, you have to be funny every day. however the changes in the industry affected the work that you and your colleagues do? >> i am incredibly lucky, because my show is in a broadcast network, so we benefit from protections the guild has fought for and collectively bargain for over many years. minimum pay and residuals for the reuse of our material, and that makes it possible for writers to have a livable career and go from project to project, and the fear is because we all know streaming is here and will continue to be the future, that will go away for all writers across the guild, but especially and particularly for late-night and comedy writing writers. studios have essentially

proposed taking all of those protection for late-night writers away. it is a high-pressure job, you have to respond to the news every single day to write jokes about the news every single day. it is really hard to do that without the security of some minimum level of guarantee about your contract is going to say, in the stuth idien f the shows are exclusively on streaming would like to pay writers not a minimum, residuals but to pay a day rate, which would not make it a sustainable career for anybody. i love the type of work that i do, late-night writing, writing jokes about the news. i want to make sure it remains a sustainable career for myself and my colleagues and people to come after us. there will be plenty more since insane news. geoff: some say the writer strike has to do with artificial

intelligence. what are some of the concerns you and your colleagues have? >> writers are not naive about technology. we know ai is here and it is the future. we want to make sure we can use it as a tool creatively and the creative process rather than being replaced by it. the nightmare scenario is that studios will u ai to generate really bad scripts or in my case really bad jokes about the news, and then they will bring in a writer at a much lower rate with fewer writers to improve a bad script generated by ai and make it enough to use on television or in film. we just want basic protections in place to make sure they cannot do that. simply saying let's put basic tensions in place to make sure it does not replace us but we can use technology as part of the creative process. geoff: we reached out to the

group representing the studios to participate in this discussion, and they said they do not speak on the record about ongoing negotiations. i spoke with history of executive -- a studio executive who said they could afford to wait at the strike because they are in cost-cutting mode right now and this work stoppage is temporary savings. >> i am prepared to stay out as long as it takes, because the fight to have a sustainable career is existential. for writers to be able to make a living, and it is also a fight for working-class and middle-class writers. we have a fund i have applied to just in case, and i will stay out here as long as i need to. people are sending food, and it has been great to march and pick with other unions. geoff: sal, how do you see it,

and what would it mean if the performers union, the directors's enjoyed this effort? >> the cross union solidarity as been incredible. we have been joined by our friends and colleagues from unions across the industry. sag has called for a strike authorization vote because everyone recognizes this is existential for the industry at large. the streaming era as broken the proffered -- has broken the profit sharing model. that ensures people who work in this industry can sustain a career and it is not just an industry for the lucky few. everybody recognizes that. theame incredible energy on the picket lines. as much as we love writing and as much as we want to get back to our jobs as writers, everybody is committed to this cause and seeing it through across all of the unions.

geoff: thank you both for sharing your perspectives with us. >> thank you. >> thank you. ♪ amna: since the start of the pandemic, homeschooling has been on the rise, with an estimated 30% increase in homeschool enrollment since the beginning of the 2019 school year. while the total number of homeschool families remains relatively modest, its rise has impacted traditional school enrollment and the way we view education. william brangham has the story. correspondent: think of it as a school without walls, or even a roof for that matter. this group of kids, in a park about an hour west of detroit, trip.gan, aren'on this is just another day of homeschooling. >> we usually pick a different park every week to visit with

the kids, and we just -- there's no agenda. we just go out on the trails and floor. -- explore. you can't get those experiences from a textbook. correspondent: kelly konieczki and her 12 year-old daughter, matilda, took the leap into homeschooling during the pandemic. being at home allowed them to reflect on their lives, and matilda's public school education. >> we were going to school, we were shuffling back and forth. it's this hustle and bustle kind of thing. and when all of that all of a sudden just stopped and i was like, wait a minute. i think the pandemic taught a lot of people about what life could and should be like. and i just wanted to continue with that. i said, well, if there was ever a time to try homeschooling, it's now, because things are crazy. >> we've been tracking the homeschool movement for a while, and we were noticing a surge in homeschooling before the pandemic. and during the pandemic, the numbers really shot up.

correspondent: robin lake is the director of the center on reinventing public education, a non-partisan research and policy center. >> what surprised me was how many said, hey, let's use this opportunity to try something different. maybe we can do better. >> i do think that there are a number of homeschool families that really want to flip how education works, so that they're not just running away from something, they're trying to do something really different. correspondent: the konieczki's use an approach known as unschooling. >> unschooling is really just learning through living. it's respecting your child as an individual and supporting them. letting them lead. he is barking because it is s eting season -- mating sn.ea n take deep dives into her real interests, like veterinary medicine, which she explores by caring for the many dozens of pets in her home, and shadowing a veterinary technician at an animal shelter. >> it still feels a little

weird, but i've gotten used to at this point. it's such a healthier way to learn, in my opinion. correspondent: while homeschooling seems to be working for families like the konieczki's, experts who study this field say that homeschools, just like traditional schools, can vary widely in the quality of education they provide. >> even though we think of ourselves as a society that requires that children be educated, if parents want to, they can simply keep their kids at home, not educate them or educate them in whatever way they choose, and there is no limit. correspondent: dr. elizabeth bartholet is a child welfare expert and law professor at harvard university. she says the laws governing homeschools vary from state to state by state, but rarely provide meaningful oversight. >> in the united states there's essentially no effective regulation, and i think that's true in all 50 states. correspondent: in loosely regulated states, like texas, michigan, and illinois, parents are not even legally required to

notify their school district before homeschooling. more strictly regulated states, like pennsylvania, new york, and massachusetts, require parents to turn in curriculums and assessments, but, says bartholet, enforcement is lacking. >> there are some states that on paper look better than others. but even the ones that look on paper as if they have some requirements, what regulation there is isn't enforced. correspondent: she says this means authorities aren't able to really see what the lives of homeschooled children look like, from the quality of education they receive, to their mental and physical health. >> the requirement that all kids go to school has been an enormous piece of our protective system for children. so protecting them against abuse and neglect. and the largest group of reporters for many years now has been teachers and other school personnel. correspondent: but in robin

lake's research, she says homeschooling parents bristle at those concerns, saying they know what is best for their kids. >> parents who are homeschooling would tell you, look, we ran away from something that wasn't working. don't -- don't rebuild it. give us -- give us the space to do what we need to do for our kids. >> i don't want anybody to tell me that my daughter is only able to do this book at this time. then she's not really homeschooling, is she? correspondent: navy veteran natalie thomas says she started homeschooling early in the pandemic when her older daughter's school in maryland went virtual. >> and every time she would get on the computer, i would say, what are you doing? you know? and she's like, i don't know. i was drawing a picture. i was making a flower. so i'm like, okay, she's not getting anything from this. so we started homeschooling. correspondent: with her direction, thomas says, her daughter, sariah, now 8, learns the fundamentals, but also has the flexibility to explore her interests. >> this is when i'm going to make a shop that's called

sariah's shop. >> that makes sense, because you're sariah. correspondent: -- >> she drew this who vision board of the salon that she's going to create. and i've already looked into that. like in maryland, you can have your cosmetology license at 16. home schooling will afford me the opportunity to allow her to be on that track. correspondent: at a time when school curriculums are the center of a passionate national debate, thomas says she's able to teach sariah and her younger sister, 4 year-old samia, things like black history more fully. >> a lot of schools and a lot of states are starting to really take out history. and i feel like you can't really talk about american history unless you talk about the importance that african-americans, latin americans, there's no american history without us. correspondent: in 2020, the number of black homeschooling families shot up, diversifying a movement many think of as being white, christian, and conservative. >> what's the hardest part of all of this for you? >> i think a lot of times it's the naysayers.

>> the outside world? >> i think that maybe the hardest. what we do here. it works for us. it works for my kids. they're learning and they're thriving. correspondent: public schools across the country have lost roughly 1.2 million students since 2020, in part due to homeschooling, which leaves the schools still reeling from the pandemic with even smaller budgets. it's a troubling shift, says elizabeth bartholet, because free public education was created to benefit not just children, but society as a whole. >> there was some way of trying to ensure that all children raised in the larger society had some sense of that larger society's values, its democratic system, core values like anti-racism, anti-sexism and just the right of people to take charge of their own lives. correspondent: whatever the impact, robin lake says homeschooling has staying power.

>> in talking to some families during the pandemic, i asked them, do you think you will stay with this? and many of them said yes. and i think that the reason in part was they realize that it's easier than they thought. and now that many parents have done it successfully, they feel like, okay, i've got this. i want to stick with it. correspondent: back in michigan, kelly konieczki plans to do just that. >> i've seen her grow and flourish and just thrive in this environment. that's why we've decided to continue. for the pbs newshour, i'm william brangham. ♪ geoff: there is a lot more online it pbs.org/newshour including a look at the medical mystery behind the rain of king george the third, the real-life monarch who is portrayed in the new netflix show queen charlotte. amna: and join us again here

tomorrow night, to see our interview with actor michael j. fox about his new documentary, tracking his long career and his battle with parkinsons. and that is the newshour for tonight. i'm amna nawaz. geoff: and i'm goeff bennett. thanks for spending part of your evening with us. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by -- ♪ the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions and friends of the newshour including koo and patricia ngyuen. >>qnod -- a world of flavor, diverse destinations and immersive experiences. a world of entertainment and british style. all with white star service. ♪

>> architect, gatekeeper, mentor, your raymondjames financial advisor taylor's to help you live your life. life well planned. >> the ford foundation working with the visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. and with the ongoing support of these institutions. ♪ and friends of the newshour. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting edited by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪

♪ ♪

introducing a technological achievement so advanced... it rivals the moon landing. wow! ok. rude. that's one small step for man.

one giant leap for mankind. ♪ >> hello, everyone, and welcome to "amanpour and company." here's what is coming up. in new york, prince harry and meghan describing was described as a "near catastrophic cultures" involving the paparazzi. we explore what we know. then -- >> [chanting] >> the new showdown over abortion access in the united states. we, political challenges ahead as well as how this is affecting american women today. then -- >> our goal is to explain why it is crucial to be at the right side of history. > my conversation with ukraine's deputy foreign minister. she tells me why her country must free all its territory, including