amna: good evening. i'm amna nawaz. geoff: and i'm geoff bennett. on the "newshour" tonight, montana becomes the first statea app tiktok over privacy concerns.to f amna: the death of a migrant child in united states custody highlights the struggles with overcrowding at the southern border. geoff: and china draws scrutiny for setting up police stations in other countries, including the u.s., chinese citizens abroad. >> these stations are the tip of the iceberg of what is a massive, massive campaign to really crackdown on dissent around the world. ♪ >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by --

>> these are people who are trying to change the world. the startup has the energy that energizes me. i am thriving by helping others every day. people who know know bdo. >> for 25 years, consumer cellular has been offering no contract wireless plans designed to a people do more of what they like. our u.s. customer base service team can help find a plan that fits you. consumercel lular.tv. >> the kendeda fund, more at indeed a fund.org. carnegie organization of new york, supporting democratic engagement and the advancement

of international peace and security at carnegie.org. and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. ♪ >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. >> good evening, i'm stephanie sy would newshour west. here are the latest headlines. the push for a deal to raise the federal debt ceiling and curb spending dominates washington again tonight. house speaker kevin mccarthy is calling for a tentative agreement by the weekend to avoid a possible national

default on june 1. senate majority leader chuck schumer says senators can return from an upcoming recess, if needed. but lawmakers also argued today about whether a clause in the constitution's 14th amendment requires paying public debts and makes the debt ceiling moot.per? no, it is not, but using the 14th amendment would allow the united states to continue to pay its bills on time and without delay, prevent an economic catastrophe, and prevent devastating cuts to some of the most vulnerable people in this country. >> it's ridiculous. it's just a way to avoid responsibility. unfortunately, that happens a lot around here. we need to hold people accountable for doing their jobs. and that's just an attempt to make short shrift of their responsibility. stephanie: so far, the biden administration has played down the idea of invoking the 14th amendment.

the president kicked off his japan trip today with a heavy focus on ukraine and china. he met with prime minister fumio kishida in hiroshima. they discussed support for ukraine's military and defense cooperation against beijing's growing military power. the leaders will join other members of the group of 7 nations tomorrow, for a 3-day summit. in ukrai, a new volley of 30 russian cruise missiles rained down overnight, but ukrainian officials say they shot down all but one. the capital, kyiv, was targeted for a ninth time this month. meantime, debris from intercepted missiles struck industrial sites in the southern port city of odesa. at least one person was killed. the toll of a flood disaster in northern italy is still climbing after torrential rain caused dozens of rivers to burst their banks. the worst is in the region of emilia-romagna, where 13 people have died and 10,000 have fled their homes. rescue teams today scoured

swamped streets, searching for the many still missing. the flooding submerged 5,000 farms, plus homes and churches, leaving residents in shock. >> we haven't imagined something this big. we've found ourselves with more than one meter of water in front of the house. we were stranded on the second floor and waited for it to be over. a lot of things went wrong, but it could have been worse. stephanie: some areas received half their average annual rainfall in just 36 hours. it's the latest in a series of extreme weather events to strike italy. a stand-off in pakistan intensified today, between former prime minister imran khan and police. they've surrounded khan's house in lahore, demanding that he hand over 40 supporters wanted in violent protests. he denies sheltering anyone. local officials say at least 3,400 people have already been arrested in the wake of the protests. thousands of jewish nationalists

paraded in jerusalem today, taunting palestinians and marking israel's capture of the city in 1967. police were out in force to prevent any new violence. many of the marchers chanted anti-arab slogans as they traveled the main palestinian thoroughfare in the old city. back in this country, the pandemic-era exodus from u.s. cities appears to be slowing or even reversing. new census data finds that overall, metropolitan areas grew 5.4% -- drew by .4% last year. at the same time, the rate of population loss in new york and los angeles dropped by half from the year before. the dallas-fort worth area showed the greatest growth. disney cited a changing business condition, the decision follows a year of attacks on disney by

florida republican governor ron desantis who has criticized the companies woke policies. still to come newshour a look at , the economic risks should congress fail to raise the debt ceiling. hollywood faces a larger work stoppage as the actors' union threatens to strike alongside writers. and the covid 19 pandemic leads to a nationwide uptick in homeschooling. and much more. >> this is the pbs newshour from weta studios in washington and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. amna: montana became the first state to ban tiktok yesterday, citing fears that the app's chinese-owned parent company could be providing americans' data to the chinese government. montana could be a testing ground for other state and national leaders also considering bans on the nation's fastest-growing app.

correspondent: the first of its kind law bans mobile of from hosting tiktok on their platforms in violations could mean fine for the companies and for tiktok is someone is offered the ability to access the platform or download the app. the bill's signing came after months of debate in the state legislature, with proponents arguing that the app and its chinese based parent company bytedance is a threat to national security. >> this app steals data from users and its ability to share that data with the chinese communist party is unacceptable and infringes on montana's rights to privacy. >> there is nothing stopping the social media company based in america from collecting the same data, selling it to a chinese organization, and then them being held to that company. correspondent: the company has repeatedly denied it sure is user information with the chinese government.

a tiktok spokeswoman push back in a statement saying the law infringes on the first amendment rights of montana residents and that the company will defend the rights of our users inside and outside of montana. while montana is the first state to outright ban the app, it is not the only one to take action. tiktok has been banned on federal government devices. in march, the biden administration urged tiktok to divest itself from chinese owners or face a nationwide ban. that same month, u.s. lawmakers on both sides of the aisle grilled the company ceo in a heated hearing. >> your platform should be banned. >> tiktok needs to be an american company with american values. >> bytedance is not owned by the chinese government. american data stored on american soil by an american company overseen by american personnel. correspondent: chinese officials

said they would firmly oppose a forced sale. montana's ban is scheduled to take effect on 2024. january 1,but free speech advocates are expected to appeal before then. in a statement aclu of montana said the governor and the state legislature trampled on the free speech of hundreds of thousands of montanans who use the apps to express themselves, gather information, and render small -- run their small business in the name of anti-chinese sentiment. a group of content creators filed suit against montana in an effort to block the ban of the app. following the events closely is bon,albbco hlyvee rs he joins us now. before we get into the legal battles, i want to talk to you about montana's move specifically targeting one app within the state's borders. have we seen anything like that? >> no, there is really no beuritand ch experts

are stunned this happened at all. if you think about it, it is going to be hard to enforce, because the way that this technology operates is if you take out your phone and you pull up tiktok, it pings a cell phone tower that talks to tiktok servers. imagine you are in a border town in wyoming or idaho, and you are in montana -- near montana and you pull up tiktok and it is being to the server and you cannot access it because of this ban. that will put you in a pretty weird and awkward situation. this will be a hard thing to really enforce because of that. amna: they are not going after users. they are going after companies, they are holding companies in the platforms responsible, which would seem to imply google and apple would have to comply for this enforcement to work. do we know they would want to cooperate? >> apple and google have not

said anything about the montana tiktok ban, but the penalties would be assessed to them. they could be fined $10,000 per day if they do not block tiktok from being downloaded on google play and apple app stores. the question is are they going to comply, are they going to resist. this will play out in the courts, but this is pitting a huge roar between montana state officials and google. amna: we have the first lawsuit, five tiktok content creators suing to overturn the law. is there any precedent that tells us how the courts might view this issue? >> it is going to be a balancing act between the national security concerns and the first amendment rights of tiktok users and creators, and i think courts have said historically that

expressing yourself politically or otherwise on a social media platforms is protected speech under the first amendment. that said, there are some ways in which the government can restrict speech if an app or social media platforms is found to be providing material support to terrorists. you can put restrictions on speech in that situation. supporters of tiktok says there is no convincing evidence tiktok poses a national security threat , and a lot of years the chinese or lunch disinformationok to spy campaigns is theoretical. this will come down to the federal judge that takes a look at this case and decides is it more of a national security threat, or should we protect the free speech rights of users. amna: even if it is not fully enforceable or struck down in the courts, are you already seeing any kind of impact when it comes to usage? >> you are, i am seeing tiktok users who have large followings

saying follow me on youtube. let's go to instagram. let's go to reddit, some other platform that is going to be safe come january 2024. tiktok is saying, listen everyone in montana, do not worry. we will block this in the courts. tiktok is encouraging tiktok users to just go about your day as you usually do, use the platform as much as you want, but users are looking for alternatives, because this is real. the governor signed a law banning tiktok within the borders of montana. if you were someone who derives all of your income from tiktok, you will be concerned about this. some of those creators to the course today and sued montana saying you are depriving us of the ability to be freely expressive on this platform and depriving us of income. amna: we have heard a number of other leaders at the state and national level expressing concerns over tiktok. do you see other states following suit?

>> we saw states ban tiktok on government devices, and after a few did many followed suit. i think it is fair to say, in states that have governors that are republicans and democrats, this issue about an ascendant china, china being a real national security threat is a real bipartisan concern, so a lot of states and the biden white house will be watching to see how this plays out in the courts. if the courts to approve this, you're going to believe for sure that other governors are going to follow suit, and the biden white house might even be watching to see, hey, if the courts allow the montana ban to go through, maybe we can push a national ban. that is something top national security officials and the white house have alerted. amna: that is bobby allyn joining us tonight. good to talk to you.

geoff: for the second time this month, an underage migrant has died in u.s. custody. u.s. customs and border protection said late yesterday that an 8-year-old girl at a border patrol facility in texas experienced a medical emergency and later died. cbp is investigating the incident. the announcement came just days after the end of the pandemic era program known as title 42. officials say the number of encounters with migrants crossing the u.s.-mexico border has fallen by more than half since last week. we're joined now by kica matos, president of the national immigration law center. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. geoff: and we should say the associated press reports that the little girl who died was from panama and that she had heart problems. she had surgery for those heart problems in panama, and that she crossed with her father, mother and two older siblings. and the facility where she and

her family were being detained sits on one of the busiest corridors for migrant crossings. separate from this specific case, tell us about these facilities. can they adequately address the manifold issues that families and children present with? kica: yes, first, my heart goes out to the family of that little girl. i was on the border just last week witnessing the end of title 42 and the impact of the asylum ban that the biden administration has imposed. what i will tell you about the customs and border patrol facilities is that they all like -- they are like black boxes. lawyers don't have access to them. advocates don't have access to them. and we know that the conditions right now are extremely overcrowded. the history of cbp facilities are stories of inhumane

conditions that no human being should ever have to confront. geoff: before title 42 was lifted, u.s. officials said that they were preparing for as many as 11,000 people crossing the border a day. at the end of title 42, encounters dropped to less than 5,000 people. what accounts for that? kica: i don't know the answer to that. but i will tell you that i was on the border last week. and what i saw were thousands of migrants following the regulations that were imposed by the united states government, patiently waiting for their appointments on the mexican side of the border. there was a lot of lack of information, misinformation, disinformation. when we talk toed a lot of the migrants, what we heard was stories of people fleeing desperate conditions, grabbing their families and running for

their lives to the border, so that they could present themselves lawfully to seek asylum in the united states. geoff: there are people who say that the ability for migrants to show up on u.s. soil and apply for asylum, that that process is sacrosanct, and that the administration, both with their deterrence policies and now establishing alternate routes for people to claim asylum in country, that that runs afoul of u.s. values, of american values. how do you see it? kica: it not only runs afoul of u.s. values and what we stand for as a nation; it is also in violation of our own domestic laws and our own obligations under international law. so, under the u.s. law, anybody who seeks asylum has a right to come to the u.s. and present themselves, whether they do it at an airport, whether they do it at a port of entry, whether they cross the border and do it.

we have an obligation under u.s. laws and our own allegiance to international laws to do that. this asylum ban, and i'm using those words intentionally, makes it impossible for people to access political asylum in the united states. geoff: but it appears those policies are working. is there another way that you can achieve both goals? kica: we have an obligation to allow people to present themselves to seek asylum. that does not mean that everybody who seeks asylum to the united states should be granted asylum. we have an obligation to follow our own domestic laws. i should also note that we have a deeply broken immigration system. the last time we saw comprehensive immigration legislation take place in this country was in 1986, under donald, under ronald reagan. what that means is that we have

for decades dealt with a deeply broken immigration system that has very few avenues for people to legally come into the united states. we hear a lot from people saying, well, why can't they do it legally? the truth of the matter is that our system is broken and congress refuses to act. geoff: for a long time, border crossers were mostly single men, and that has shifted over time to include families and unaccompanied children. have our policies, have the infrastructure along the southern border adequately shifted to account for that change? kica: no. look, i spent four days last week in the border. and we met with people who are on the mexican side of the border, waiting patiently to be given appointment. we visited encampments. we visited shelters. we met with families. we met with families with young children. these encampments, the conditions in these encampments are deplorable. they are inhumane. there is no basic

infrastructure. in one encampment that we went to, there were two port-a-potties for approximately 1,200 people. a lot of the people who are in these encampments rely on humanitarian assistance from nonprofit organizations that are cobbling resources together to try to meet very basic needs. we have an obligation. we have the resources. we have the ability to provide infrastructure so that these families, while th wait to be processed, have the very basic standards that human decency requires. and we're not providing that as a government. geoff: kica matos is the president of the national immigration law center. thanks for being with us. kica: thank you for having me. amna: congressional and white house negotiators met again

today as they try to reach a deal on the debt ceiling. both president biden and speaker mccarthy have said they believe they can get to an agreement in the coming days. but fears of a default still loom, since both sides remain divided on a number of issues, including federal benefits and spending cuts. as the deadline closes in, some experts are weighing what could happen in the case of default. our economics correspondent, paul solman, is our guide. paul: to swipe from "60 minutes," the debt ceiling clock is ticking. but what would happen if the u.s. actually defaulted on its debt, the $31.4 trillion of treasury ious out there? that hasn't happened since the treasury was established in 1789. now, the debt ceiling is the cap on the total amount of money the federal government is authorized by congress to borrow. created in 1917, it made up about 10% of us gdp, compared to

this year is projected 100-plus%. so, at long last, a default? >> that is a very big deal. that sends more than ripples. that sends shockwaves around the world throughout financial markets and massively disrupts u.s. government operations. paul: not only that says simon johnson, former chief economist at the international monetary fund. simon: it really impacts our national security very badly. that is that cataclysmic financial crisis that everyone fears and believes can't happen. paul: longtime bond trader jose: there's no other country in the world that separates the process of appropriating funds to spend from the process of determining the financing to spend it, the amount of debt. paul: like everyone i spoke with, daza thinks u.s. debt default would be a financial armageddon. jose: it lends itself for a political confrontation. >> what's most alarming here is that we don't really know what would happen. paul: which is why wendy edelberg of the brookings institution thinks treasury

won't default, should the debt ceiling be breached, but will make regular payments to current bondholders. wendy: what's assumed is that it would make the principal and interest payments, so that it wouldn't strictly be in default on u.s. treasury securities. paul: but the treasury would need to stop paying someone. who exactly? wendy: the u.s. taxpayer owes a lot of people money on at any given day. obviously, we owe anybody who owns treasury securities. we owe them interest. but we also owe doctors and hospitals money who have treated medicare and medicaid patients. we owe federal workers and federal contractors money because they have done work on behalf of the u.s. taxpayer. we also owe a whole lot of people money who are entitled to benefits, like social security. paul: about 70 million americans receive social security benefits, more than one in five of us. but for many, isn't the money supplemental? simon: so some people can afford

to wait a little bit before they are paid by the federal government. but many tens of millions of people who receive social security can't afford to wait. paul: in fact, for 40% of beneficiaries, social security is their sole means of support. simon: the impact on them would be dramatic, can't pay the rent, can't buy food, can't pay essential medical bills. i mean, that would just be a horrible, horrible human cost. paul: and what about america' millions of federal employees, more than two million military personnel, some 800,000 postal workers, and another two million people at jobs as varied as tsa security at the airports and the employees at our national parks? simon: anyone who's living paycheck to paycheck, if you don't give them a paycheck, even for one week, or even for a couple of days, how are they going to feed their families? how are they going to get to work, buy gasoline? and how are they going to pay the rent? and if you don't pay your rent in this country, you generally get evicted pretty quickly. paul: now, work-arounds have been proposed. mint a trillion dollar platinum coin or coins, the fed accepts, and then deposits the money at the treasury. new interest-only treasury bonds that add nothing to the debt

total. new high interest bonds sold at a steep discount that would profit the treasury on the books and reduce the total debt. rather than risk anesthetizing you with the details, suffice it to say, all such gimmicks will wind up in court, say edelberg and others, and then -- >> who wants to buy those treasury securities knowing that they might prove to be illegal and canceled? so doing any of these work-arounds creates its own flavor of chaos. paul: so what's likely to happen? jose: i expect this to get resolved one second before the ultimate deadline, and when the united states will start the process of get into a default of one or other forms of payments that they need to make. in game theory, it does not make any sense to reach an agreement before the last second.

paul: when i asked wendy edelberg, former chief economist of the congressional budget office, what are your odds as to whether or not this is resolved before zero hour? wendy: i put the odds on this happening and getting to the point where treasury has to juggle payments and make one payment and not another one, i put high odds on that. paul: trader daza has a game theory example, from the game of chicken, two cars coming straight at each other. jose: and to some extent, i feel that the republicans are about to throw the steering wheel out the window and they can just only go straight, and they will force president biden to do something. paul: simon johnson doesn't expect a head-on collision, but, he says -- simon: i think what we're talking about is the risk of an accident, a very serious accident, that could have massive damage to our economy and the world, but a low probability of a very serious accident is something that we should worry about. paul: my own reaction too, for what it's worth, no kidding. paul solman for the "pbs

newshour.”: thfbi rested two chinese nationals in new york last month, accusing them of running a secret police station to watch and intimidate chinese dissidents living overseas. there are more than 100 of these stations around the world that researchers say beijing uses to silence its critics. nick schifrin and producer teresa cebrian aranda reports. nick: nearly 6,000 miles from beijing, on a quiet street in madrid, a nondescript office claims to offer assistance for chinese citizens. but the reality is more shadowy. a chinese dissident leads us to what he calls the source of chinese repression that begins with an invitation. >> here, it says we should be careful with telecommunications fraud, that if you receive a

suspicious message, you should get in touch with the chinese embassy. nick: but yuan lee says the only suspicious messages came from chinese authorities and were sent in order to silence. >> i am sure they did a systemic campaign against me led by these chinese associations. and now we know there are secret police stations hidden inside chinese associations. nick: when the pandemic began, he created a youtube channel to expose what he calls the truth about the chinese communist party. and he appears on far right spanish tv, what some call spanish fox news. >> i had a rebel opinion, because i think everyone is a victim of chinese communism. we have to hold the chinese communist party accountable. it withheld information by censoring doctors who blew the whistle on covid and threw

journalists in jail. nick: in response to that criticism, he says these posters circulated on chinese social media calling for him to, quote, "drink tea," that is, submit to interrogation by chinese officials. he says he received death threats and his family back in china was intimidated. yuan lee: my sister called and asked, "brother, what did you do? because the police came to our house with many police vans. they came in and asked: 'where's yuan lee? when is he coming back? my mom was also arrested. she spent three days in jail. nick: this association is in a residential neighborhood near madrid's chinatown. it was closed when we filmed, but, inside, a photo the chinese county chinese county qingtian, which is in the office's name, the general qingtian association in spain. international researchers say, in 2021, the association worked

with chinese mainland police to hi s aeeti einne t chiprs ntvisy chinese officials. beijing says he was, quote, "persuaded" to return to china to face charges. >> there are many dissidents in madrid. and many of them ask me, what can we do to protect ourselves, for instance, in the case of an extradition? because this could happen to any of us. the chinese communist party controls all chinese associations. nick: the association web site says its police stations, quote, "protect the rights and interests of overseas chinese." and chinese state qingtian launched police stations in 11 countries, including spain. >> beijing is quite explicit in what its attempts are when it conducts its transnational policing or transnational repression activities. it wants to control the overseas communities, but, to a larger extent, also, it wants to control the narrative worldwide about the chinese communist party, about the people's republic of china.

nick: laura harth is the campaign director with safeguard defenders, the human rights group that first revealed beijing's covert police stations using open-source chinese documents. they found more than 100 chinese police outposts in 53 countries set up by authorities from four chinese regions. laura: these are stations, centers that have not been declared to the host governments where these are operating. nick: and, as far as you can tell, how extensive, how expansive is this effort across the globe? laura: really, these stations are the tip of the iceberg of what is a massive, massive campaign to really crack down on dissent around the world. nick: xi jinping has targeted critics both inside china and overseas. he's portrayed his efforts as a way to fight crime and corruption. >> the so-called human rights organization safeguard defenders. nick: beijing's advocates argue they have every right to target chinese overseas. hu xijin is the former editor in chief of the communist

party-aligned tabloid global times. hu xijin: most countries have supported and cooperated with china's pursuit of fugitives. the accusation made by safeguard defenders is an old-fashioned way by demonizing thailand by calling criminals fleeing overseas as political >> we cannot and will not tolerate the chinese government's persecution. nick: but now countries are exposing chinese tactics. last month, the united states attorney for new york's eastern district revealed federal charges that accused lu jianwang and chen jinping of running a police station in new york's chinatown on behalf of china's ministry of public security, or mps. breon peace: the mps officers who have been charged today are not focused on preventing crime. rather, the complaints charge these mps officers with engaging

in transnational repression schemes. >> when i arrived in the united states. i thought that there would be fewer threats, but it feels like the chinese communist party is everywhere in this country. and the threats are very severe. nick: jie lijian is a prominent chinese pro-democracy activist living in los angeles, where safeguard defenders found another police station. he criticizes chinese human rights abuses and the silencing of chinese doctors who blew the whistle on covid. he fled china in 2018 after being arrested and he says tortured in a psychiatric hospital for advocating for better labor rights. he says, in california, chinese agents record his protests, and worse. he says he's been attacked five times and was once stabbed. >> in my home, my windows have been destroyed. these threats and harassment have brought me to a dark place. as victims, we experience tremendous psychological pressure and a deep sense of

oppression that is difficult to express. they work very efficiently. for example, if we hold protests, even before they end, chinese agents will have visited some of their homes and threatened and intimidated their families. nick: senior fbi officialsic ino intimidate online. on twitter, jie received death threats. this message says: "i will shoot and kill jie lijian.” social media researchers say beijing uses bots to target chinese critics with thousands of messages. last year, google removed more than 50,000 accounts made by a chinese influence operation. researchers believe the same operation imitated safeguard defenders to try and conceal their reports. laura: the chinese authorities are not completely stupid. they will prefer to do as much of this as possible through online means, because that does kind of insulate those chinese

actors, agents, if you will, from accountability. nick: but activists including yuan lee say their messages won't be obscured. he says he hopes to build his own association that protects, not targets, dissidents. >> i can no longer take a step back. this is my face. and i hope this personal sacrifice that i made will be worth it. nick: but, even as countries crack down, activists know that beijing is still watching. for the "pbs newshour," i'm nick schifrin. geoff: the actors union sag-aftra has called for a strike authorization vote. if the strike is approved, actors could join the more than 11,000 writers guild members already on the picket line, putting even more pressure on studios and networks. the ongoing writers strike has halted production movies and

scripted series like "stranger things" on netflix, apple tv's "severance" and showtime's "yellowjackets." late-night tv shows have already gone dark. for more on the strike and what's at stake, i'm joined by two television writers and writers guild members, sal gentile and jeane phan wong. thank you both for being with us. and, jeane, we will start with you. this is day 17 of the strike. how are you and other writers faring? and remind us of what it is that you're demanding. jeane: we're basically asking for less than 2% of profits that they make from writer content, when it comes down to it. and sustainable wages to be able to have a career in entertainment is what we're asking for. and i was just out on the picket line this morning and felt really good with morale and all of us are, i drove in. i had a two-hour commute because i'm house-sitting out of town. it just felt really good morale just to see everyone, and especially when people drop off

food. it's always nice when people feed the writers. geoff: so, jeane, streaming has dramatically transformed the .stinry american entertainment. one would think that compensation would reflect that. why hasn't it? jeane: there's a huge influence of the tech industry on streaming and the way that writers are being compensated. so, i'm both a television and a new feature writer. and, in television, our employment, we're paid weekly, and the average number of weeks that a writer is working in a room has gone down a lot. and, oftentimes, writers are forced to stretch the money that they make in such a short amount of time over a longer time, and even, in some writers, some contracts with options exclusivity. sometimes, writers are held and they can't even find other work. and in feature writing, there's just a lot that we're asking

for, more than a one-step deal, because there's a lot of free work. and i know that sounds insane, but there's a lot of just free labor that's being asked as sort of like a courtesy and whatnot. and so, basically, a lot of the tech industry has this, like, devalued ask for more work, sometimes free work, for less money, and asking writers to stretch our salaries over a long time. geoff: and, sal, you work in late-night. that's a high-pressure job, long hours. you have to be funny every day. you can't necessarily wait for the muse to strike. how have the changes in the industry that jeane is talking about, how has that affected the work that you and your colleagues do? sal: well, so i'm incredibly, lucky because my show is on a broadcast network. and so we benefit from protections that the guild has fought for and collectively bargained for over many years. we benefit from protections such as minimum pay and residuals for the reuse of our material. and that makes it possible for

writers to have a livable career and to go from project to project. and the fear is that, because we all know streaming is here, and will go away for all writers across the guild, but especially in particularly for late-night and comedy variety writers, because the studios have essentially proposed taking all of those protections for late-night writers and comedy variety writers away. and, as you mentioned, it's a high-pressure job. you have to respond to the news every single day and write jokes about the news every single day. and it's really hard to do that without the security, at least some minimum level of guarantee about what your contract is going to say. and the studios would like, in the future, if these shows are exclusively on streaming, to pay writers, not a minimum, not the residuals, but to pay a day rate, which would not make it a sustainable career for anybody. and so, because i love the type of writing i do, i love

late-night writing, i love writing jokes about the news, i want to, i want to make sure it remains a sustainable career, both for myself and my colleagues and for people who come after us, because there's going to be plenty more insane news for the shows to make fun of. geoff: sal, a sticking point in the writer strike has to do with artificial intelligence. a.i. is already being used in entertainment writing. what are some of the concerns that you and your colleagues have? sal: yes, so i want to establish one thing, which is that writers are not naive about technology. we know that a.i. is here. and we know that it's the future. and we want to make sure that we can use it as a tool creatively, in the creative process, rather than being replaced by it. and so i think, for example, the nightmare scenario, the fear is that studios will use a.i. to generate really bad scripts, or, let's say, in my case, really bad jokes about the news. and then they will bring in a writer at a much lower rate with many fewer writers in a room to improve a bad script generated by a.i.

and make it good enough to use on television or in fi. and so we want to just, we just want basic protections in place to make sure that they can't do that. we're not saying a.i. is going to go away. we're simply saying, let's put basic protections in place that will make sure it doesn't replace us, but that we can use the technology as part of the creative process. geoff: and we should say we reached out to the group that's representing the studios to participate in this discussion, and they said they don't speak on the record about ongoing negotiations. but, jeane, i will tell you, i spoke with a studio executive who made the point that the studios right now can literally afford to wait out the strike because they are in a cost-cutting mode right now. and this work stoppage for them is a savings. these are temporary savings. how long are you prepared to stay out in the picket line? jeane: i prepare to stay out as long as it takes, because the fight for, to have a sustainable career, it's an existential fight, for writers to be able to

make a living, and it's also a fight for a lot of working-class and middle-class writers. we have a robust strike fund. i have applied to it just in case. and i will stay out here as long as i need to, and as people are sending food, and it's been great to march and picket with other unions. geoff: sal, how do you see it? and what would it mean if sag-aftra, if the performers union, if the directors union joined this effort? sal: the cross-union solidarity has been incredible on the picket lines. we have been joined by our friends and colleagues from unions across the industry. and, as you noted, sag has already called for a strike authorization vote, because everybody recognizes that this is an existential moment for the industry at large. the streaming era has broken the profit-sharing model that already existed that was in place. it was imperfect, but it was there.

make sure that the people who work in this industry can sustain a livable career, and it's not an industry just for the lucky few, and but for everybody across all of these unions and guilds. and so everybody recognizes that. and i have felt the same incredible energy on the picket lines. i know everybody, as much as we love writing and as much as we want to get back to our jobs as writers, everybody is committed to this cause and seeing it through across all of the sister unions that have joined us on the picket line. geoff: sal gentile and jeane phan wong, thank you both for sharing your perspectives with us. i appreciate it. jeane: thank you. amna: since the start of the pandemic, homeschooling has been on the rise, with an estimated 30% increase in homeschool enrollment since the beginning of the 2019 school year. while the total number of homeschool families remains relatively modest, its rise has impacted traditional school enrollment and, as william

brangham reports, the way we view education. woman: i think he's going to come. yes, look at him. william: think of it as a school without walls. woman: oh, look at that one flying. william: or even a roof, for that matter. this group of kids in a park about an hour west of detroit, miigan, aren't on a field trip. homeschooling.nother day of >> we usually pick a different park every week to visit with the kids. and we just, there's no agenda. we just go out on the trails and explore. you can't get those experiences from a textbook. william: kelly konieczki and her 12-year-old daughter, matilda, took the leap into homeschooling during the pandemic. being at home allowed them to reflect on their lives and matilda's public school education. kelly: we were going to school. we were shuffling back and forth. it's this hustle-and-bustle kind of thing. and when all of that all of a sudden just stopped, i was like, wait a minute. the pandemic taught a lot of

people about what life could and should be like. and i just wanted to continue with that. i said, well, if there was ever a time to try homeschooling, it's now, because things are crazy. >> we have been shocking the homeschool movement for a while, and we were noticing an uptake, a surge in homeschooling before the pandemic. and during the pandemic, the numbers really shot up. william: robin lake is the director of the center on reinventing public education, a nonpartisan research and policy center. robin: what surprised me was how many said, hey, let's use this opportunity to try something different. maybe we can do better. i do think that there are a number of homeschool families that really want to flip how education works. so they're not just running away from something. they're trying to do something really different. william: the konieczkis use an approach known as unschooling. kelly: unschooling is really just learning through living. it's respecting your child as an individual and supporting them,

letting them lead. matilda: he's barking because it's mating season, and he thinks he wants to mate, but. william: for matilda, this means she can take deep dives into her real interests, like veterinary medicine, which she explores by caring for the many pets in her home and shadowing a veterinary technician at an animal shelter. >> it still feels a little weird, but i have gotten used to it at this point. it's such a healthier way to learn, in my opinion. william: while homeschooling is clearly working for families like the konieczkis, experts who study this field say that homeschools, just like traditional schools, can vary widely in the quality of education they provide. >> even though we think of ourselves as a society that requires that children be educated, if parents want to, they can simply keep their kids at home, not educate them, or educate them in whatever way they choose, and there's no limit. william: dr. elizabeth bartholet

is a child welfare expert and law professor at harvard university. she says the laws governing homeschools vary from state to state, but rarely do they provide meaningful oversight. >> in the united states, there's essentially no effective regulation. and i think that's true in all 50 states. william: in loosely regulated states, like texas, michigan and illinois, parents are not even legally required to notify their school district before homeschooling. more strictly regulated states, like pennsylvania, new york and massachusetts, require parents to turn in curriculums and assessments. but, says bartholet, enforcement is lacking. >> there are some states that, on paper, look better than others. but even the ones that look on paper as if they have some requirements of what regulation there is isn't enforced. william: she says this means authorities aren't able to really see what the lives of homeschooled children look like,

from the quality of education they receive to their mental or physical health. dr. elizabeth bartholet: the requirement that all kids go to school has been an enormous piece of our protective system for children, so protecting them against abuse and neglect. and the largest group of reporters for many years now has been teachers and other school personnel. william: but, in robin lake's research, she says homeschooling parents bristle at those concerns, saying they know what's best for their kids. robin: parents who are homeschooling would tell you, look, we ran away from something that wasn't working. don't rebuild it. give us the space to do what we need to do for our kids. >> i don't want anybody to tell me that my daughter is only able to do this book at this time. then she's not really homeschooling, is she? william: navy veteran natalie thomas says she started homeschooling early in the pandemic, when her older daughter's maryland school went virtual.

natalie: every time she would get on the computer, i would say, what are you doing? and she's like, i don't know. i was drawing a picture. i was making a flower. so i'm like, ok, she's not getting anything from this. so we started homeschooling. william: with her direction, thomas says her daughter, now 8, learns the fundamentals, but also has the flexibility to explore her interests. >> this is when i'm going to make a shop that's called sariah's shop. william: that makes sense, because you're sariah. sariah: yes. natalie: she drew this whole vision board of the salon that she's going to create. and i have already looked into that. william: at a time when school curriculums are the center of a passionate national debate, thomas says she's able to teach sariah and her younger sister,

4-year-old samia, things like black history more fully. natalie: a lot of schools and a lot of states are starting to really take out history. and i feel like you can't really talk about american history unless you talk about the importance that african americans, latin americans, there's no american history without us. william: in 2020, the number of black homeschooling families shot up, diversifying a movement many think of as being white, christian and conservative. what's the hardest part of all of this for you? natalie: i think, a lot of times, it's the naysayers. william: is that right, the outside world? natalie: mm-hmm. i think that, i think that may be the hardest. what we do in here, it works for us and works for my kids. they're learning and they're thriving. william: public schools across the country have lost roughly 1.2 million students since 2020, in part due to homeschooling, leaving the schools still reeling from the pandemic with even smaller budgets. it's a troubling shift, says elizabeth bartholet, because free public education was created to benefit not just children, but society as a whole. >> there was some way of trying

to ensure that all children raised in the larger society had some sense of that larger society's values, its democratic system, core values like anti-racism, anti-sexism, and just the right of people to take charge of their own lives. william: whatever the impact, robin lake says homeschooling has staying power. robin: in talking to some families during the pandemic, i asked them, do you think you will stay with this? and many of them said yes. and i think that the reason, in part, was, they realize that it's easier than they thought. and now that many parents have done it successfully, they feel like ok, i have got this. i want to stick with it. william: back in michigan, kelly konieczki plans to do just that. kelly: i have seen her grow and flourish and just thrive in this environment. that's why we have decided to continue. william: for the "pbs newshour," i'm william brangham.

geoff: and there is a lot more online, including a look at the medical ministry between the reign of king george the third. amna: join us again here tomorrow night to see our interview with actor michael j fox about his new documentary, tracking his long career and his battle with parkinson's. and that is the newshour for tonight. geoff: thanks for spending part of your evening with us. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by -- the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions and friends of the newshour including koo and patricia yuen.

>>qnod -- a world of flavor, diverse destinations and immersive experiences. a world of entertainment and british style. all with white star service. ♪ >> architect, gatekeeper, mentor, your raymondjames financial advisor tailors to help you live your life. life well planned. >> the ford foundation working with the visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. and with the ongoing support of these institutions. ♪

and friends of the newshour. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> this is pbs newshour west, and from our bureau at the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy.] ♪

introducing a technological achievement so advanced... it rivals the moon landing. wow! ok. rude. that's one small step for man. one giant leap for mankind.

♪♪ -"cook's country" is about more than just getting dinner on the table. we're also fascinated by the people and stories behind the dishes. we go inside kitchens in every corner of the country to learn how real people cook, and we look back through time to see how history influences the way we eat today. we bring that inspiration back to our test kitchen so we can share it with you. this is "cook's country." ♪♪ today on "cook's country," bryan heads down to cajun country and shares his version of rice dressing. and ashley makes bridget stuffed turkey wings. that's all right here on "cook's country."