john: debt ceiling talks take a brief pause. and desantis tries to outflan trump on the right. >> the u.s. economy hangs in the balance. john: with less than two weeks untitil the federally government runs out of cash and defaults on its debts, treasury secretary janet yellen warns of dire consequences. >> have reasonable conversations. we're not going to sit here and talk to ourselves. john: republicans walk away from the talks only to say a few hours later they would be back. the speaker says the framework of a deamust be in place by sunday to give congress time to pass it. plus the trash talk between former president donald trump and florida governor ron desantis heats up as the field for the 2024 republican presidential nomination grows. next. announcer: this is "washington

week." corporate funding is provided b- >> for 25 years, consumer cellular's goal has been to provide wireless service that helps people communicate and connect. we offer a variety of no contract plans and our u.s.-based customer service team can help find one that fits you. to learn more, visit consumercellular.tv. announcer: additional funding is provided by -- koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. sardinha and carl delay-magnuson. rose hirschel and andy shreeves. robert and susan rosenbaum the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. john: good evening and welcome to "washington week." i'm john yang. talks on raising the debt ceiling took an unscheduled break today. in the morning republican negotiators abruptly walked away from the bargaining table only

to say this evening that they were going back. they said they had paused the talks because the white house hadn't moved far enough in the recognize' direction on -- republicans' direction on spending cuts. in the days before this both house speaker kevin mccarthy and president biden sounded optimistic. president is monitoring -- 7,000 miles and 13 time zones away in japan where he's attending the g7 summit. the preside is due back at the white house late sunday night, earlier than planned and will be available to meet in person with the speer. the two sides are racing a deadline. they have to have a deal in time for congress to pass it before the treasury runs out of money to pay for everything from social security and medicare benefits to military salaries. that could be as early as june 1. joining me to discuss this and more, kayla tausche, cnbc's senior white house correspondent and here in the studio, fin gomez, cbs news political director, carl hulse, "the new york times'" chief washington correspondent and seung min kim

who covers the white house for the associated press. we're just getting word that they've already broken for the night and there's no set time for another meeting. and some of the negotiators are sounding pretty pessimistic that they will meet the weekend deadline for having something -- the framework in place. carl, i know you've seen a lot of these capitol hill negotiations. i don't know i you've ever seen anything like this today. but do we have any idea or any sense about why the republicans left and why they came back? carl: i think there's a perform active aspect to -- performat vivamente-of-ive aspect to this. the republicans need to show they're fighting for everything they can. the speaker is under pressure from the right, the freedom caucus, hard right conservative element of the house republican majority has already said they won't vote for anything that's -- until the senate approves the house bill which won't happen. but i do think there's -- so some of this is to show we're tough and this is how congressional negotiations go. up and down. up and down. but there are some real

differences. and how -- how you cap the spending, what spending exactly you cap, how long those caps go. the contours of the deal are there. but getting the details is hard. and i think that's what they're doing right now. but they got a few days still to work it out and have to see what happens. john: kayla, what are they saying at the white house and how big of a complication is it to have the president 13 time zones away so he's ending his day as talks begin? kayla: well, john, and certainly overshadowed any big picture conversations and publicity the white house hoped to garner back home for big picture issues like ukraine and like china because this is all anyone is talking about. and his aides are briefing him around the clock. and when he holds his press conference in the early morning hours on sunday morning, east coast time, this is all the reporters are going to be asking him about is whether he has

spoken to house speaker kevin mccarthy and what his aides are telling him about whether there's a deal and what the path forward is once he returns to washinon. when i spoke to white house officials today, they were unbowed by what the republicans re doing walking out of the meetings and suggesting that the administration was being unreasonable. look, they said the president understands that the g.o.p. also has an issue with its whip count. the g.o.p. can't deliver this deal on its own. and they need to understand that to -- in order to get democratic votes, that the administration has to deliver on some of its priorities, too. this official telling me they can't get everything they want. and so both sides are sort of, you know, they're currying to -- their farther out wings as carl was just mentioning but at the same time, the white house seems to be acknowledging, look, this is going to be a deal that's made in the center and that's where we're going to say -- stay. john: a deal not everyone is going to be happy with. but we've heard president biden's red lines, the things

that he will not give in on. any idea, any sense of what the white house is willing to give on and maybe what the republicans are willing to give on? seung: so one interesting element that's really caused ripples especially among democrats this week is the issue of the tougher work requirements for some federal aid programs. such as snap which is that food stamps program and tanev, the temporary assistance for needy families. i was actually traveling with president biden over the weekend at his beach home in reboth beach, delaware, and asked him in the middle of his bike ride and talked to the press and the updates on the debt negotiations and i asked him you would be open to tougher work requirements on some of these federal aid programs which is what republicans have demanded? and surprisingly he said yes. he's noted that he had voted for tougher laws that were -- that were in place now as part of that welfare reform bill bark in 1996. he says medicaid is a red line for him. he's not going to do anything that gets rid of anyone's health care kompleg. -- coverage.

on the other issues look, let's see what the republicans have got and that caused a lot of concern on capitol hill this week, particularly among progressive lawmakers who really want to protect these programs as much as possible. you know, it's that element -- that dynamic that we've discussed earlier that no matter what deal it is, there will need to be a lot of democratic votes and you can't give too much on democratic priorities. but i will say that president biden has been asked this multiple times since -- since sunday. and he keeps saying over and over that he is opened to -- open to some changes depending on what they are and wants to hear from republicans first. so in terms of a possible compromise, on what kind of give the white house can give on republican priorities, that's that. but, you know, certainly they are worried about freezing spending levels for a long period of time. that's not something that they will agree to that republicans are demanding. there are some other kind of more out there demands like i know some conservative republicans are asking to add their border bill to the debt limit. that he was not going to happen. -- that's not going to happen.

look at some changes to potential federal aid programs and then look at how long do you kind of set these spending levels and how low they go? john: fin, carl said the freedom caucus, the ultra conservative freedom caucus probably won't be happy with what comes out of these negotiations. seung min said the progressives on the democratic side probably won't be heavy. how do they pass this? fin: that's a really grate question. and i don't necessarily have that answer. but there is so much drama here, john. like a telenovela. and in the -- the president and mccarthy run the risk of inflaming the ires of the wings of both their respective parties. when republicans told me just before i got here that mccarthy is between a rock and the maga base. and he is. because if -- if -- if he gives up -- if he gives up too much territory, politically, he can really face aacklash there. and we are in a presidential cycle and he has a tenuous hold

on that leadership. and that -- and the freedom caucus that we were talking about, they have ties to the former president trump and to that maga base electorate that we were talking about. and just one other point that carl brought up in his grate great piece today, in previous standoffs, when it implodes it's usually the party that's in power. the power -- in charge of -- in control of congress, right? but this time around, per recent polling that "washington post" poll that came out, both parties would share the blame. and a lot of independents would be upset if this thing falls apart, john. carl: one thing to watch while we're talking about that is can kevin mccarthy keep a majority of his majority? that's sort of the threshold where he has to be at. and probably not face a challenge. the other big question is, does the hard right say we're not going to vote for it and let it lie? or do they attack the plan? and then i will say on the democratic side, there is a lot of memories about joe biden's negotiating on capitol hill. and they haven't always been

happy with what he's come up with. and i think there's some nervousness among people like joe biden, don't give away the store again. seung: i think with all this talk about how angry will republicans be, how angry will democrats be? i kind of have like two basic rules of thumb for these bipartisan fiscal negotiations. one is that which we saw today, thers always a -- a bad meeting before a good meeting and second is once there's a deal, if everyone hates it, it probably will pass. so -- because you have enough sort of people in the middle who know they have to do this for the goodness of the country or for whatever reason. that you'll have kind of the -- the far planks of the right and the left reject it for their own ideological reasons but if no one loves it it's probably a good shot of passing. john: carl, you were talking about the speaker mccarthy and early in the week, you had a story in "the new york times" talking about how mccarthy was just dying to get -- to go head-to-head with president biden. now that he's got his wish, he's doing it, how has this affected his standing, his stature inside

the house and outside? carl: i think there was a perception among the republicans and certainly among -- with kevin mccarthy that he wasn't being given credit for what he's done so far. i mean, the expectations honestly for speaker mccarthy were pretty low. because he had to fight for the job 15 ballots. but he's been -- he's managed to get some legislation through. not going anywhere in the senate. but he's held his folks together and he wanted to get up there right with the president. he also wanted chuck schumer sidelined on the negotiations. he -- the republicans saw schumer as a detriment to their cause. so i think -- i think mccarthy is feeling pretty good right now. but, you know, he's got a tough week coming. john: and seung min, on the democratic side, the president for a long time said he was not going to negotiate with the debt ceiling as a threat hanging over his head. and as you say there are worries that he will give away the store. what is his standing in the party? what does this do to his

stature? seung: well, right now, i think there are a group of democrats that recognize that biden, the president has to do what he can to avert a debt default while remembering priorities. but you have seen some anger from again house democrats this week this is precisely why you do not negotiate with someone, a group of people who are willing to hold something as serious as the debt limit hostage because you kind of get pulled into negotiating over spending levels or how far the debt limit runs. like whether it goes past the election or on tougher work requirements. but at the same time, the white house isn't left with a lot of options here. because they do not want a default. democrats do not want a default. most -- some, most republicans don't want a default. and they know what the dire consequences would be. so when they are afraid of those consequences, they are going to be willing to talk to them to see how you can avert that. now, i will say the white house

continues to say that they're not negotiating on the debt limit. you know, that they are actually negotiating on the budget and spending. and the debt limit just happens to be coincidentally happening. but we know in reality that's not the case. john: he said when he talked to reporters on wednesday that the debt limit, don't worry, folks, the debt limit is going to be raised. we're dealing with these other issues. is that the way they look at it on the hill? fin: no. that's a distinction without a difference. they're negotiating and chuck schumer has even said we're negotiating on this. so no, they're not looking at it that way at all. john: kayla, at the white house, is anybody saying any privately aides wondering whether they might have underestimated mccarthy going into this? kayla: well, that was certainly the takeaway, john when mccarthy passed his bill a few weeks ago and was able to corral his caucus ever so slyly, shyly to get that vote and get that bill across the finish line. i think that caught the white

house flatfooted because the president's message up until that time had been i'll show you my budget and you show me yours. and he put out his budget in early march. and had hoped that the republicans would not be able to get their act together to put an entire budget together and while they never released a full budget plan, they did pass that bill. and when the white house was asked at that point repeatedly, ok, so is this a plan? does the white house now need to respond? they said no, that's not a plan. it's just a collection of policies. this is not a budget. we asked for a budget. and it then became a very semantic argument. but it put the ball in mccarthy's court and when i talked to one of his aides and i said, you know, what's the status? how are you feeling going into these negotiations? right before the first meeting of the core four congressional negotiators and the president and his top staff, and they said, look, at this point, you know, nator mcconnell who is a long-time friend of president biden's i think there was some hope at the white house that perhaps mcconnell would be the white knight and mcconnell said i'm going to stand next to speaker mccarthy.

he needs to deliver his conference on this. and this mccarthy he had a told me that's the ballgame. so it empowered the republicans going into these notiations and they are the ones who set the agenda with the topics and the items that they were willing to discuss in these negotiations. and now the whiteouse is having to figure out where it stands and what it can get out of this. and try to save face on messaging going forward, too. john: fin, could this, however this turns out, however this comes out, could this afft the s re-election bid? could there be aftershocks from this that go all the way to 2024? fin: in a word, yes. especially this blows back in -- in democrats -- in the president's face essentially. if it does, if -- if it seems lke he's giving too much ground again, and you have seen how the progressives are reacting to any sort of -- any sort of really fluidity with these negotiations, yeah, he does have that -- there is that risk.

still early but yeah, absolutely. carl: presidents are judged on the performance of the economy. it's just one of those things and even if you can't control it. and i think they're worried about that. and the default. we don't know what a default would look like. but we certainly think we know and it's not good for the economy. john: well, his likely or the frontrner for the republican nomination spoke up today, donald trump, said on truth social, republicans should not make a deal on the debt ceiling unless they get everything they want including the kitchen sink. that's the way the democrats have always dealt with us. do not fold. fin, does -- you mentioned the freedom caucus. but does -- does trump bring any other republicans along with him on this? fin: well, i think the freedom caucus, directly tied to the former president. and i think they listen to that -- to the former president especially going into this presidential cycle where he is the -- he's the clear frontrunner in this early stage

of that -- of the cycle. so absolutely. his words go a long way. and i think they will continue to. and, you know, despite speaker mccarthy being the head of the republicans on capitol hill, you know, he's still the de facto standard bearer of that party. john: well, we're going to be hearing a lot more fromonald trump in the days to come. the field vying to challenge him in the republican presidential nomination race is growing. today, south carolina senator tim scott filed the necessary paperwork with the federal election commission. and he says he'll make what he calls a major announcement monday in charleston. and on wednesday, florida governor ron desantis is expected to say that he's running. and in recent days, desantis and the current frontrunner former president donald trump have been exchanging increasingly pointed barbs. trump mocked the governor after two desantis-backed candidates ended up losing in tuesday's elections. and on the other hand, "the new york times" reported that desantis has privately told supporters that trump can't win

in 2024. carl, what's this race going to look like and are they going -- these are two politicians whose careers have really been intertwined. they're sort of playing in the same lane. going after the same voters. and -- carl: and trump would say he made ron desantis. john: exactly. carl: with his endorsement in the florida governor's race. it's going to be a very messy battle. i think desantis might be happy that other people are jumping into this race. and it sort of might dilute a little bit of the trump effect on him. i do think that's interesting that other people have seen what's happened. have seen how it's gone with desantis and still say, you know what? i'm willing to jump in there and take on the former president. i do think it's just going to be a free-for-all, though. and donald trump is really great at character assassination. and he's going to apply those skills to ron desantis.

john: could his -- with desantis, what he's doing could it work going after the same voters sort of trying to -- beat trumpism without trump? carl: that's hess message. trump can't win. there are a lot of republicans in the senate who also believe that and are quoard about trump. i do think, though, that you're going to see trump use this feud that desantis has had with disney against him and say, you know, this guy is not good for business and try to scare away donors. fin: yeah. desantis hasn't even launched his campaign yet and is expected next week. and he's lost momentum, though. he's lost momentum over the last several weeks, over the last several months in part because he harris not engaged with donald trump. and some of his supporters have said jump in already. like counter. so -- so i think that once that happens, i think after next week, i've been told by some folks in the desantis world that that will increase. that he will get more vocal

toward the former president. but it will turn the cycle i believe into a vicious one. it will be a brutal, brass knuckle cycle. and worse perhaps than we've seen since 2016. john: you say desantis is going to get more active. but how will the -- what contrast will he try to draw with president trump? fin: well, frankly, he has been, yes, he has been leaning into this part of being the -- being the best person to embody the trump era policies for the republican base without having the trump baggage. i think you'll see more of that. he's been tweaking him as we've seen. he's been increasing it. and increasing his criticisms. but at the same time, because of that lack of momentum, as carl touched upon, we are -- we have been seeing more potential contenders say even this past week, from the mayor of miami to the north dakota governor, to others, you know, saying they are considering -- seriously considering runs and jumping into the presidential fray. and a lot of that is because

desantis has lost momentum over the last few weeks. john: so that's their hope. that's what fuels these sort of long shot candidacies, that's how they think they could win? fin: yeah. that and in part because despite his positioning of trump's positioning in -- as this frontrunner, and i think most national polls there's an average national poll that show that he's up by 30 points over desantis right now. but because there are still these looming investigations, you know, with jack smith and the others, fulton county, that perhaps -- that this trajectory is not sustainable. and so the more they enter into the race, they feel there could be -- they could change and could evolve and they can get a chance. and frankly, you know, and a lot of them are relying on that. we'll see what happens. john: turning to the democratic side, kayla, vice president camilla harris' profile seems to be rising in recent days. is there some strategy behind

that? kayla: well, in short, yes, john. because her profile had receded to behind the scenes and her aides had complained the issues she were tasked were low profile issues and set up to fail because they were issues not designed to succeed. now in recent weeks, she's taken the helm of the administration's messaging on abortion rights. and in recent weeks, she's also taken the lead on some debt ceiling strategy as well. she was in the meeting with congressional negotiators this week after not being in the meeting last week. she held a briefing for reporters yesterday talking about the consequences of default and then even today, while she was visiting a philanthropic facility in california, she made comments that made news about the debt ceiling. suggesting that -- giving some of the reasons behind the pause. and so the white house has seemed to make a concerted effort to put her out there. and it's because the attacks from the other side are expected

to discuss president biden's age and the fact that camilla harris, the vice president, is a heartbeat away from the presidency and her record is expected to come under attack just alongside the president's and they want that to be unassailable. and they want her to be shown being in the lead -- hand in glove with president biden on a lot of these issues. john: the republicans could be saying she could be president sooner rather than later? given the president's age? kayla: that's what they're anticipating. the message to be. because of the attacks on president biden's age. and so they're gearing up for that. and even just her appearances in president biden's ads and some of his high-profile events it is very clear they're raising her profile to show that she would be an able leader if anything were to happen to president biden, to try to nip those attacks in the bud even before they start. john: seung min, the campaign also released a strategy memo. and interestingly, listed the states where they thought they could be competitive in 2024.

ihianatn ngo mthrisuem interrg how they specifically singled out north carolina and florida as two states where they will try to be active and play in as compared to the states -- the swing states that they laid out that were so successful back in 2020. because if you look at the states, a lot of them are very familiar to us such as pennsylvania, wisconsin, georgia, and arizona, clearly were pivotal states for the president in 2020 and also frankly in 2022 as well. in the midterms, north carolina and florida caught my eye. florida for us, you know, what s florida was a solid swing state and now it is clearly a red state considering - and especially looking at governor desantis' resounding re-election victory last november. but it is someplace where they see at least it's worth investing some money in. and north carolina is really interesting as well. it is a state where the demographics could be pretty ripe for democrats to take that state again after losing it to republicans the last couple of presidential cycles. and i do think that's another

state where abortion which has been such a key issue in the midterms, we just saw the republican-led legislature override governor cooper's veto of -- i believe a 12-week abortion ban and that issue will be really salient and relevant for so many states and swing states to come. john: seung min you have the last word. thank you for sharing your reporting with us and thanks to all of you for watching. and join me back here tomorrow on pbs news weekend for a look at how three native communities in louisiana are fighting to save their tribal lands from rising sea levels. i'm john yang. good night from washington. announcer: corporate funding for "washington week" is provided b- >> for 25 years, consumer cellular has been offering no contract wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. our u.s.-based customer service team can help find a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit

consumercellular.tv. announcer: additional funding is provided by -- koo and patricia yuen through the yuen foun foundation, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. sardinha and carl delay-magnuson. rose hirschel and andy shreeves. robert and susan rosenbaum. the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to our pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning performed by the. national captioning institute,. which is responsible for its. caption content and accuracy.]

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