geoff: good evening. i'm geoff bennett. amna: and i'm amna nawaz. on the “newshour” tonight, the bill to raise the debt limit heads to the senate after passing the house with bipartisan support. geoff: federal prosecutors obtain an audio recording of former president trump discussing one of the classified documents he kept after leaving office. amna: and tensions run high in pakistan as former prime minister imran khan awaits another possible arrest and his supporters rally to his side. >> i'm isolated, quite insecure. all my senior leadership in jail or they have told them that, look, anyone who wants to come

out, he has to renounce his membership of my party. ♪ >> major funding for the "pbs newshour" has been provided by. >> these are people who are trying to change the world. startups have this energy that energizes me. >> i am thriving by helping others every day. people who know, know bdo. >> for 25 years, consumer cellular has been offering no-contract wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. our u.s.-based customer service team can help fi a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit consumercellular.tv. >> the kendeda fund, committed to advancing restorative justice and meaningful work through investments in transformative leaders and ideas. more at kendedafund.org.

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the deal to raise the federal debt ceiling is moving tonight toward final passage in congress. pressure on the senate built today, after the house approved the bill last night. geoff: it has to happen before the government's borrowing authority maxes out on monday. that would trigger a national default. congressional correspondent lisa desjardins starts our coverage. lisa: the fate of the debt ceiling bill, and the economy, now lies in the senate's hands. >> time is a luxury the senate does not have. lisa: this morning, majority leader chuck schumer urged quick action to avoid default. >> june 5 is less than four days away. at this point, any needless delay, or any last-minute hold-ups would be an unnecessary and even dangerous risk. >> yeas are 314 and nays are 117. the bill is passed. lisa: the measure has big momentum after overwhelming bipartisan passage in the house last night. majorities of both parties backed the bill.

the non-partisan congressional budget office says the legislation will cut the deficit $1.5 trillion over the next decade. it also includes concrete spending limits for two years. new work requirements for older people on food stamps, with exemptions for some others. a restart of student loan payments. and a shorter timeline for environmental reviews of big projects. house speaker kevin mccarthy took a victory lap with the gop team of negotiators. >> this is fabulous. this is one of the best nights i have been here. i thought it would be hard. i thought it'd be almost impossible just to get to 218. now, i found there's a whole new day here. >> now it's our turn in the senate. lisa: both republican and democratic senators also backed the bill, adding to a sense that it will pass. >> as painful as some of the decisions that will come from this agreement reach, they are virtually at this point inevitable to avoid default on our debt. >> i want to commend speaker mccarthy for negotiating a legislation that makes

responsible reductions in government spending while avoiding a default. lisa: but some opposing senators are standing in the way of a fast process, asking for amendment votes first. kentucky republican rand paul's would cut more spending. >> the biden-mccarthy deal is not conservative in any way, shape, or form. it doesn't reduce spending. it allows spending to continue to increase. lisa: some progressive democrats say the bill cut too much, hurting the vulnerable. another issue, the bill would fast-track the contentious 303-mile mountain valley pipeline supported by west virginia lawmakers. virginia senator tim kaine wants a vote on that. >> for a private company t build a pipeline, they have to get approval that it's necessary and the route is good. but then once that, they're entitled to take people's land. in appalachia and virginia, it's the hardest hit part of my state. people don't have a lot, sometimes land is all that they have. lisa: the bill needs at least 60 votes, and appears to have it. with a ticking debt clock, the question is when that vote happens.

geoff: you have been covering all of this from one side of the capital to the other for months now. where do things stand right now? lisa: it feels like years but it has only been a few months. we have news. senators have been trying to negotiate the critical time agreement to make sure they can make the deadline for this vote, and we are told by our producer who was at the capital right now that we expect votes in the next half an hour. this is the senate floor currently. you can see virginia senator tim kaine, looks like nothing is going to happen, but that is exactly that moment when rainbows appear in the senate. i think what we will have is a late night. the senate will probably complete this tonight or in the early hours tomorrow morning. two things we know about the senate. one, each senator represents a state. two, they don't rep on fridays. this could be wrapped up tonight for in the early morning. geoff: speaker mccarthy has said this would save $2 trillion. does that mass at up? lisa: i am sure our viewers have

heard that $2.1 trillion figure. it is the idea that if you squintour eyes and look at it you $2.1 that are not required, but that are essentially suggested. if you look at just what the bill requires it isnly a $1.5 trillion cut. i will also say important in the senate negotiations is the next step for appropriations. some senate republicans have been trying to make back deals today to make sure appropriations bills pass, and also that there is money for the military, may be in a separate funding bill from this deal. geoff: big picture, what has this protracted debate about the debt ceiling shown us about the parties? lisa: we have been spending so much time on the nitty-gritty, but there are really important moments here. this is one of the first time the lead on anything. senators are feeling the house

act -- forcing them to act today. when you look at the house republican leadership and republicans in general, this is the first time i can remember seeing republicans in the last four years move towards the center. and they did it en masse. until now we have experienced the dynamic or someone is very far on the right and the rest of the conference feels like to have to go as far right as possible. instead we are seeing republicans go towards the middle. geoff: could that happen again? what does that suggest about legislation moving forward? has the far right lost their pull? lisa: there is an issue here with a catastrophic potential consequence. there was also a novel factor that former president trump was not really involved. i think you see his pull is still strong with house republicans. when he gets involved than that does matter. i asked speaker mccarthy last night, you rolled up your sleeves and did what the country wanted.

people want compromise. they figured it out. could you use this template for other things like immigration? he actually did not answer that question and i took it as a no. but there is some hope. the problem is what really mattered with the deadline and that got them to act. geoff: what did you learn about the democrats from this experience? lisa: the democrats will tell you, they feel like they got the better deal. shalonda young is universally cited as one of the smartest people involved in this whole thing and i think democrats feel like they did better in the end than republicans did. especially with future triggers. they feel a lot of different changes in here and they have many out clauses and waivers they think the government can get around. geoff: so we will be back here in two years talking about the next effort. lisa: that news, we will be back here this summer when they start talking about how to divvy up the money. always great to see you. thank you so much.

♪ amna: in the day's other headlines, the senate voted to rescind president biden's plan canceling federal student loan debts for 43 million people. the vote was 52-46 as democrats joe manchin and jon tester, plus independent kyrsten sinema, joined republicans in the majority. the white house has promised a veto, but the plan's ultimate fate lies with a supreme court decision expected this month. the president himself was on the road today, urging the nation's newest military officers to maintain american leadership in a world that's getting more unstable. he addressed the u.s. air force academy's commencement inwhate called a mighty responsibility. >> the world you're graduating in is not only changing rapidly, the pace of change is accelerating as well.

we're seeing proliferating global challenges, from russia's aggression and brutality in europe, to our competition with china, and a whole hell of a lot in between. amna: after speaking, the president donned a cap under the bright sun and shook hands with more than 900 graduates for 95 minutes. then, as he turned to sit down, he stumbled and fell, but was helped up and appeared unhurt. the white house said he tripped on a sandbag, but that he's fine. two more memrs of the oath keepers extremist group were sentenced today for seditious conspiracy and other crimes in the january 6 attack on the u.s. capitol. a federal judge in washington gave one of them 4.5 years in prison. the other got three years. last week, stewart rhodes, the far-right group's founder, was sentenced to 18 years in prison. in ukraine, russia kept up its month-long bombardment of kyiv overnight, inflicting the most casualties yet.

authorities in the ukrainian capital said they shot down all of the missiles, but falling debris killed three people, including a young girl and her mother. meantime, president volodymyr zelenskyy met with european leaders at a summit in moldova. he pressed again for more weapons, and for action on admitting ukraine to the nato alliance. >> and this year is for decisions. and this is the sort of point i would like to emphasize. in summer in vilnius, at the nato summit, a clear invitation to membership for ukraine is needed and the security guarantees on the way to nato membership are needed. amna: so far, nato members are split on the possible timing of ukraine's accession to the alliance. the main russian intelligence agency is accusing the u.s. of hacking thousands of apple i-phones inside russia. the federal security service charged today that hidden data collection was carried out through software vulnerabilities in the phones. the russians said the u.s.

national security agency is using new malware and working closely with apple. the company and the nsa had no immediate response. back in this country, a federal policy protecting hundreds of thousands of people from deportation went back before a federal judge in houston today. the daca program currently covers nearly 600,000 immigrants brought here as children. the judge struck it down in 2021, but an appeals court ordered him to review changes made by the biden administration. and, on wall street, congressional action on the debt limit helped the stock market's mood. the dow jones industrial average gained 153 points to close at 33,061. the nasdaq rose 165 points, or 1.3%. the s&p 500 was also up 1%. still to come on the "newshour," the 2024 republican race kicks into a higher gear as presidential candidates travel to key early primary states.

increasingly long freight trains cause problems for communities near railroad crossings. manufacturers struggle to keep up with renewed demand for cassette tapes. plus, much more. >> this is the "pbs newshour" from weta studios in washington and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. amna: federal prosecutors have a recording of former president donald trump discussing a classified pentagon document he kept after leaving office, multiple outlets report. laura barron-lopez takes a deeper look at the former president's legal battle. laura: in the 2021 recording, which the "newshour" has not independently verified, trump says the document details a potential attack on iran. retained the sensitive document after leaving the white house, represenng a potentially significant piece of the justice

department's investigation into the former president. joining me now to discuss is oona hathaway, a professor at yale law school and former special counsel at the pentagon. thank you so much for joining us. the reporting purportedly shows mr. trump knowing that the document he kept was classified. how significant is that? oona: it is very significant. for at least two reasons. first, it makes clear that contrary to his claims he did not declassify or ev think he declassified everything before he left office. one thing he said was he did not unlawfully retain classified documents because he just declassified everything before he took it away to mar-a-lago. this reporting makes clear that he knows at least in some of the documents he retained is classified. and it makes clear he did it knowingly. he knows these are classified documents and he knows he is

holding onto classified documents. that is essential to the committal case against him. lisa: trump said he wanted to share the information in the document but understood the potential legal limitations. could this apply to the doj's investigation into a potential espionage act violation? oona: the espionage act covers a range of activities with regard to classified information. the particular provision that he might be charged with provides that if somebody does not have lawful access to a classified document, which somebody who is out of office does not have lawful access to the document, if they retain, prevent the government from having access to, and continue to hold classified documents, even if they don't intend to transmit them. so just lock knowingly holding on to these documents is a violation of the espionage act. and so, it's clear, even if he did not intend to transmit them, but he's effectively admitting

to a violation of the espionage act. laura: and this document had to do with, as we said, a potential attack on iran, and we should note that we don't know at all whether or not there is any type of potential u.s. attack on iran, but recent reports also found at mar-a-lago there was a maintenance worker who testified to the justice department that they saw a trump aide moving boxes to a storage room the day before a meeting that was supposed to be held last year between trump's lawyers, as well as justice department officials. what is the relevance of that legally? oona: yeah, well, this suggests that, you know, what trump has been saying is, these documents were his, and none of them were classified. so this recording suggests that these documents that he knows he was holding onto, he knows he took them with him from the

white house to mar-a-lago, he's holding on to them and he says, well, i'm just moving them around, i'm just storing them. well, this evidence suggests that he knew that those documents were classified, or at least some of those documents were classified, and then when he's ordering them to be moved and stored it does suggest that he's attempting to conceal them from the federal government. and remember that the government had been asking for these documents back. the national archives had recognized documents were missing, and had requested the president turn them over. the president was insisting that they belonged to him. now, this recording suggests he knows they are classified. classified documents can't belong to somebody who doesn't have lawful access to those documents, and who's out of office. those are by definition, presidential records. so it really is evidence that all these things that have been leaking out, kind of together with this recording, suggests that in fact the president knew he was unlawfully retaining these documents, he knew that they were classified, and he knew that if you continue to hold them and conceal them from the government that he would be violating the law. laura: the fact that a trump

aide appeard to move some of these classified documents to a storage room, could that apply to the potential obstruction charge? oona: yes. obstruction of justice requires that he knowingly contained and concealed documents that are relevant to an ongoing investigation. and the fact that he knew these documents, or at least some of these documents were classified, and we do not know if the particular documents he is referring to in this recording are in the boxes that were moved, but it does suggest he knows many of the documents he is retaining are classified, and that he was intentionally moving them in order to, it seems, to avoid the fbi obtaining them and to keep them from the national archives. and so that is suggestive of a violation of obstructive of justice. this recording suggests that he

knew precisely what he was doing. laura: when you take all of these facts together, do you think that the justice department is going to ultimately charge the former president? oona: i think it makes it very hard for them not to, frankly. i mean, there have been lots of people who have gone to jail for much less. reality winner, who recently was released from prison, went to jail for retaining a single document and transmitting it to the intercept. that was one document. and, you know, this seems to be much more than that. and this is clear evidence the president knew what he was doing. he knew that he was retaining them and they remain classified. and they had real likelihood of being able to do damage to u.s. national security, which is the definition of national defense information in the espionage act. so i think it actually makes it hard for a prosecutor not to bring a case, given how clear the evidence is. laura: a professor at yale law school and former special counsel at the pentagon.

thank you so much. oona: thank you so much. ♪ amna: with the summer campaign season in full swing, the republican presidential hopefuls are criss-crossing early voting states, hoping to stand out in a growing field of candidates. former president donald trump, back in iowa today. >> make america great again. that's a very simple statement. amna: with a commanding lead in the polls for the republican presidential nomination. and spouting his familiar and false claims of a stolen election. >> then you had a rigged election, let's face it. amna: but for some gop voters who like trump's message, there are still questions about his style. >> the person i want is so divisive that it's just like, you know, can't you please just get along with people?

am: others are ready to move on entirely. >> trump's really powerful. you can't dismiss him or undersell him in any way. but we've already seen that. amna: in iowa this week, a few hundred people looking for an alternative to trump packed into this evangelical church auditorium to see his major rival. florida governor ron desantis made his first early state appearance as an official candidate, touti his record handling the covid pandemic and challenging what can be taught in schools. >> in florida, we proved that all of this can be done. we chose facts over fear. we chose education over indoctrination. we chose law and order over rioting and disorder. amna: trump has grown increasingly critical of the governor in recent weeks, calling him "ron desaster" and "ron desanctimonious." >> if it takes eight years to turn this around, you don't want him. amna: desantis delivered his

most forceful pushback yet. >> he used to say how great florida was. hell, his whole family moved to florida under my governorship. are you kidding me? amna: some voters believe desantis offers greater potential to reach beyond the gop base. >> i think we need a candidate who won't be divisive and can actually get independents to also vote for him. amna: with half a dozen candidates already in the race, other contenders are hoping to catch fire with voters in the critical early nominating states. whether it's former governor nikki haley answering questions about abortion in the granite state. >> i'm being very honest with you, i can't suddenly change my pro-life position because i'm campaigning in new hampshire. amna: or senator tim scott sharing his life story. >> when i look back and i look forward in our nation, i understand the misery uniquely that comes with broken pieces and a broken family and a broken heart.

putting those together for our nation is my responsibility. amna: a strong performance in iowa, new hampshire, or south carolina could propel underdog campaigns into competitive spots. >> we absolutely have to win because i think our country is done if we have to do another four years on the current path. and i'm going to be paying very close attention to see who can win. amna: the candidates will soon have more competition. former new jersey governor chris christie, north dakota governor doug burgum, and former vice president mike pence are all expected to launch campaigns for the republican nomination next week. for an on-the-ground look at the candidates and voters in early states, i'm joined by kay henderson, the news director for radio iowa and moderator of iowa press on iowa pbs. and gavin jackson, a reporter for pbs station south carolina etv and host of this week in south carolina.

welcome to you both. kay, let's begin in iowa. the caucus is, of course, still the first in the nation for the republicans. obviously, the candidates showing up there early and often. how is that resonating with voters on the ground? what do they tell you they're looking for? kay: well, it depends on the person you ask. one of the people at a trump event today said to me, it appears to him that the nomination is trump's to lose. when you go to desantis events, they're looking for something different. they're looking for something new there. and in fact, one of the people that i interviewed on monday told me that he's looking for someone who's not geriatric. there's a fear among some desantis people that putting a rematch of trump versus biden would not turn out well for the party. but iowans are not by any means making up their minds as a group right now. they're sampling other candidates, nikki haley, tim scott, the south carolinians. there was a small group that met with vice president mike pence

earlier in may, and of course, he will be coming to iowa next week to announce he's jumping in the race. one of the dynamics here is that the more people that enter this race, the likelier that donald trump will be able to prevail in the iowa caucuses, just because of the sheer number of people in the race. amna: gavin, what about in south carolina? what are you hearing from voters there? gavin: yeah, similar to what kay was talking about there. i mean, i just got off of a swing from tim scott's campaign launch. you know, he launched on may 22 in north charleston. it was a very similar launch to what we saw with nikki haley making her bid in february. and i followed both of those candidates to the battleground states in iowa and new hampshire after their launches in south carolina. and a lot of folks are saying the same things in those early voting states as they're saying re in south carolina. they're waiting to see this field gel. they're trying to see who has the strongest message, since so many people have similar messages, too. and that's not too dissimilar from what we're hearing from tim scott and nikki haley, talking about their backgrounds, introducing themselves to voters out there in iowa and new hampshire. as we await to hear from more

candidates on the ground here in south carolina, obviously, florida governor ron desantis is stopping in south carolina on friday as part of his 12 city swing, a huge kind of campaign launch that we've seen from ron desantis that we didn't see from tim scott the other day. you know, he had a big kickoff in north charleston, but then he went to iowa, had one town hall, handled it pretty well, had about 200, 300 people there, had a roundtable with some educators as well, and then went to new hampshire and had a small meet and greet with some new hampshire republican women. so a bit different from what we're seeing from ron desantis and from what we saw with nikki haley. she had multiple town hall events, too. so it seems like tim scott's really trying to get into campaign mode right now from that listening tour mode. amna: but, gavin, when you talk to these folks in the early voting states, though, are there particular issues that they're really paying attention to? we heard nikki haley talking about abortion access. ron desantis has been leading into this anti-woke message. right. we heard all the candidates bashing the debt ceiling deal here in d.c. does any of that matter to those voters?

gavin: yeah, you know, you hear a lot on the stump about, you know, anti-woke fighting against this, you know, this victimhood stuff that we're talking about. and it gets a lot of applause lines out there. but actually, day to day voters, you know, that's not the first thing that they bring up when i ask them, what are your top issues? it's the economy, it's education. it's making sure that the country can move forward. and so maybe that does have to do with that, you know, anti-wokeness worried about political correctness and trying toove the country forward as they see has been kind of stagnant under president joe biden. so folks are waiting to hear from more of these candidates. and i mean, we're seeing them turn out too. nikki haley has a crowd of about 1000 people in south carolina, which was in myrtle beach earlier this year. she got about 500 people in greer. i've seen ron desantis when he was making his tour through the state earlier before he declared, and here about 1000 people at a church up in spartanburg on a wednesday night. so the momentum is there. people are interested to hear what these folks have to say. no one's really making up their mind yet, which is tough for tim scott and nikki haley since they're the home grown candidates here. they want to win their home state. and right now it's up for grabs. amna: kay, what about you? are you hearing that same thing in terms of priority of issues among the voters? kay: well, i think what it boils

down to is voters are making an evaluation versus style, and some of them are making an evaluation versus on substance. and some of them are trying to decide which way they'll go, whether they want the candidate that campaigns and the style that they prefer or the candidate that's, you know, has the substance that they want. for instance, there appears to be an emerging debate between desantis and trump about the way the pandemic was handled in florida versus the way president trump handled the pandemic in march of 2020 nationwide. that's turning into a key issue for some voters in iowa. and also, when you talk to voters who aren't on the trump bandwagon at this point, they all say they liked the accomplishments of the trump presidency, they just didn't like the style of the trump presidency and what's been happening over the past couple of years.

and so if they can get over that by, you know, as a trump campaign, having these smaller events like they had today, many of the people i talked to after that event today said it was low key. he felt more relatable to them, and he was saying the same things that he says at the big rallies but it was about style and their connection to him in a smaller setting. amna: you mentioned the 2016 primaries, and obviously in that crowded field that benefited donald trump, he came in second in iowa to ted cruz, but he won new hampshire. we are still many months to go, but does it look like the same thing could happen? could a crowded field again benefit donald trump? kay: absolutely, because at this point, it appears if you look at the polling in iowa and nationwide, that it's a two person race, it's a trump-desantis race with other people hoping to fill a third lane. and when you have so many people competing and when you have trump really going after his main competitor right now, that's a dynamic that really

would benefit trump if you look at the numbers. amna: gavin, what's your take on this, especially with two south carolinians in the race now in south carolina, the first in the south republican primary. could that be a turning point for haley and scott? gavin: it's going to bcritical come february with the primary. course, we get to see what's going on. iowa, new hampshire, we're seeing a lotf effort being put into iowa from both tim scott and nikki haley. they are seeing some comfort there, some similarities there with iowa and south carolina that they're hoping to work on. but of course, it comes down to getting their names out there in places like iowa, new hampshire. nikki haley has a bit more name i.d. in those places than tim scott does, but tim scott has plenty of money to get his name out there on the airwaves right now with, i think, a $6 million ad buy from his campaign and then his super pac also throwing about $7 million in to some advertising as well. so it's going to come down to south carolina in terms of deciding where this race goes forward next year in 2024, still a long way away. we have to wait to see what these polls do, with a wait and see what happens on the debate stage. so, a lot will happen. but, you know, if you don't win your home state, that's going to

probably be a turning point there for those guys for sure. amna: still a long way to go. we cannot say that enough. kay henderson and gavin jackson from our pbs families in iowa and south carolina, for joining us tonight. ♪ geoff: pakistan's ousted prime minister, imran khan, has been caught in a political storm for the past several weeks. earlier this month, he was arrested by paramilitary forces on corruption charges, released only after the supreme court stepped in. his arrest triggered widespread protests across pakistan, followed by thousands of arrests and a massive crackdown on his political party known as pti. when khan was elected in 2018, he had the support of the pakistani military. but khan was removed in a no-confidence vote last year when he started criticizing the army leadership.

he spoke to us early today from his residence in lahore. i asked him what the last few weeks have been like sc has been the target of the country's government. >> all my senior leadership is in jail. today one person was hiding, the president of my party. they grabbed him and put him in jail too. 10,000 of my voters are in jail. i am pretty isolated here right now. my security, the interior ministry has said that my life is in extreme danger. and yet they picked up my head of security and he has disappeared for the last three days. and my bulletproof cars which accompany me, they are gone. so the situation is such that i am isolated, quite insecure. all of my senior leadership is in jail, or they have told them, look, anyone who wants to come out, he has to renounce his membership of my party.

geoff: you are facing criticism from all sides that your supporters were responsible for violence after they laid siege to a military building. did they go too far? should you and could you have done more to stop them? mr. khan: firstly, i did not even know what was going on because i was thrown into jail. for four days, i was cut off, no news, no mobile phone, nothing to know what was happening. the fit i found out was when i was presented to the supreme court. and that is when the judge asked me and i said, for 27 years i have been in politics, we have never broken the law. we have always stayed within the constitution. all our protests have been peaceful, which is a right to protest peacefully. so what happened on this day, i have asked for an independent inquiry that the supreme court must have. we feel the arson was

deliberately done. we feel it was like hitler in 1933, used the arson on the german parliament as a mns to crackdown on the communists, and he eliminated. geoff: you are saying it was not your supporters who work responsible for the arson? mr. khan: there are cctv cameras. there should have been a proper investigation. how can you be judge, jury, executioner, and then go after your whole party who had nothing to do with the arson? only a few people were possibly involved. so this is an excuse to go after the party. geoff: the army has said those responsible for the violence will be tried under military law. the proceedings are held in military courts, on military installations. the courts are run by military officers. do you believe that your supporters can get a fair hearing in that sort of environment? mr. khan: this is the end of our

democracy. in fact, it is the end of our justice system. it means there is no confidence in pakistan's judiciary. how would the supreme court allow this to happen? we are now standing on the brink, where the entire democratic structure is being dismantled, and the final nail in the coffin of the democratic structure will be military courts. geoff: pakistan has been directly ruled by the military for almost half of its modern history, and most prime ministers, including you, came to power with the support of the military. how did you end up losing their backing? mr. khan: i think you need to ask the ex-army chief. he gave his statement afterwards that, yes, he was involved in toppling my government because he thought i was a danger to the country. and yet i have worked with them. so what made him suddenly in the last six months decide to pull the rug out of the feet of my government?

what made him change horses? only he can answer. geoff: at this point, do you want to curtail the army's power, or do you wish the generals would support you, as they did before? mr. khan: no. the problem is the hybrid system, where the prime minister has responsibility as an elected prime minister, but the power is basically lying with the military establishment. this hybrid system has failed. in my opinion, there needs to be a new equilibrium. the elected prime minister who has the possibility must have the authority in any management system. so in order for pakistan to get out of this economic mess, pakistan needs rule of law. rule of law will ensure proper governance. geoff: are you confident that the next election will happen by october as scheduled? mr. khan: absolutely not. i am not confident. because what is happening now is

that the establishment, along with this current government, they are trying to crush the party. they are trying to ensure that pit, my party -- pti, my party, will not win. there are 150 cases slapped on me. and what they are hoping is that either i will be in jail by then, and most of my leadership, they will try and turn, like some of our leaders who were in jail came out and said we are no longer part of the party, because that was the condition they could come out of jail and all charges be dropped. so either the party will be so weak it will not be able to win the elections. the only when the elections will happen is if pti cannot come into power. and that is why by october if that is not the case, i don't think there will be elections. geoff: what role should the u.s.

taken a selection, if at all? in the past you have criticize the u.s. for taking part in your elections. mr. khan: all i want the u.s. is to say is what professed values are over the world. we stand with democracy, fundamental rights, against torture. that is what we want them to say. when they speak about china or russia or hong kong, they talk about all these things. here is a classic example where democracy is being rolled back and all of these things are happening. i thin kth -- i think that is where they should be consistent. geoff: do you see a peaceful or negotiated way out of the situation? mr. khan: possibly. i think we have reached an impasse. despite doing everything, the party's popularity has just grown. the latest support is a 70%

rating in pakistan, unheard of in our history. so, whether they keep on trying to crush it popular political party, or sit down and work out on some kind of settlement, i think at some point since will prevail. i am an optimist and i think we will come to some kind of understanding. geoff: imran khan is the former prime minister of pakistan. thank you so much for your time. mr. khan: my pleasure. ♪ amna: freight trains are getting longer and longer in the u.s., some stretching for two or three miles. these longer trains allow for more goods to move, more efficiently, which lowers fuel use and costs for the railros. but as william branghamitiein haexlf.ns william: the impact of these

longer trains on the daily lives of americans is the focus of a new investigative report fromnd. itighlights the journey of children on their way to school in the rural town of hammond, indiana, where parked trains create a literal roadblock for kids. and they're forced to crawl over and under them to get to school. another concern, long trains can halt traffic, stranding ambulances, fire trucks, and other emergency vehicles. and for the record, bnsf railways, which is mentioned in some of this reporting, is a funder of the "newshour." for a closer look at all this, we're joined by one of the reporters on this series, joce sterman of investigate tv. welcome. those images of children crawling over those installed trains is so jarring. i want to read from your report. it says there was in eighth grade girl who waited 10 minutes

to make her move. she saw plenty of trains starting without warning. she said i don't want to get crushed. please installed trains can literally start at any time? joce: at any moment. no notice. and these children are just waiting. they waited the bus stop in the morning to see if they can get through. they'll collect in large populations, their parents are sometimes with them. they'll look under the train. they'll listen for noises, any indications that it might be moving. when they feel like there is no choice, they go out and give it a try. and they risk their lives doing it. william: it is striking to me that they don't have to make a clear sound before they take off. joce: they definitely have some sort of signal but as you mentioned, these trains could be miles long. so even if they honk a horn or give some sort of a warning light at the front of the train, the odds that the kids at the back or at the middle are going to hear that may not happen, so there is no notice and they are in the most dangerous sections of these trains crawling,

through crawling under, so not having any notice is a really big problem. william: why are these stalled and stopped the way they are? joce: breakdowns can definitely be a factor when this is an issue but that's just one reason. another is rail traffic. you know, it's basically switching practices. they might need to get one train into one place, or another into another, and they need different lanes or space to do it. it could also be a crew timeout issue. just like with airplanes and pilots, when they hit a certain number of hours they have to shift out, they ve to get rest, it is very important. so there are a number of factors that mean they stop now. best practices would say they would stop what they say off crossing in an area where they're not going to impact the communities say like hammond or anywhere else in the country where this happens. but that's not exactly what happens most of the time because they want the trains to be in the fastest, most efficient place to move forward and keep the process going. so if that means they stop in the middle of a community and they limit the first responders, they cut off communities, that's the cost of doing business, i guess. william: this issue of blocking

first responders, what happens in those cases? joce: what we're talking about critical minutes here. if you call for an ambulance, or you call for police, every second matters here. if you're having a heart attack, something's wrong with your child, you don't want to wait. and in many communities, these are life and death scenarios. they cannot get around these trains. just in hammond alone, they have station their fire stations and their ambulance response compensating for this knowing that it's a problem. not everybody can do it. the rail lines have been there for decades, so they can't always do that. they try to plan routes around that, doesn't always work. we know that there have been deaths as a result of this. we've seen fires, we've seen injuries. it's very real, because if it takes them miles out of their way to respond, that's the time they're not getting to you and that has real life implications. william: i want to play clip from an interview you did with a firefighter in hammond, indiana who was talking about the pushback they have tried to do when they gone to the industry about this. >> the cities and towns and

states have tried to challenge the railroads. obviously the railroads have come out well ahead. so i do not know if they are giving us the middle finger and saying we are going to do it because we won in court, or they are just igning it. but we need help. we need help. william: the association of american railroads, they said safety is our top priority. what has the railroad industry told you in regards to your reporting? joce: same thing, safety is their priority. but at the moment, they pretty much have all the power here. this is a regulatory gray issue, so no one forces them to move. nobody can tell them they can move. no one can really fine them. this is an issue where it's been fought at court. it's now potentially gonna go to the supreme court. attorneys general across the country are fighting to get some sort of decision on who's in charge here because right now, no one is, so they can do what they want. safety may be their top priority. they don't want to see these accidents either. but the demonstration here is they're willing to sit in wait in many communities and they're not doing anything about it.

so obviously, safety isn't always the top priority. the rail unions themselves, the people who are the engineers, and the conductors, have said today was about greed, it's about money, it's about them making money. and that's what they see as the priority. they're not showing that safety is the first priority, if they're willing to let these trains sit for days at a time. it's just a crisis. william: i know you have spoken to lawmakers here in d.c. including secretary buttigieg. what is the remedy that they would like to see done? joce: the remedy is potentially finding repeat operators but that seems like a long shot at this point. the remedy could also be deciding who actually regulates this problem. who can tell them they can move, because as i said, it's a gray area. nobody really can at this point. at the moment. the only thing they have is funding, and there's going to be grants given out by the department of transportation to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to just try to get rid of these at grade crossings altogether. that's the only thing they have

at the moment. there is safety legislation moving through as a result of the situation in ohio with the hazmat situation. they're going to try to do a few things with that to address blocked crossings, but it's not anything specific in terms of regulation. so this isn't going to get solved through regulation at the moment or through legislation at the moment and all they have is money to throw at the problem. william: joce sterman, such tremendous reporting. thank. -- thank you very much. joce: thank you. ♪ geoff: in an era of music streaming and digital downloads, an old format is making a comeback. stephanie sy has more on how modern music audiences are rewinding and hitting play on a cassette tape revival. it's part of our arts and culture series, canvas. stephanie: electronic music artist maral has always had a passion for cassettes.

growing up in northern virginia, her parents' tape collection was a way to connect with her iranian heritage. >> i would go through their old tape collection of old iranian music, from classical to pop. and that's kind of when i started discovering iranian music on my own and deciding what types of iranian music i liked the most. stephanie: today, as an independent artist in los angeles, she draws inspiration for her current projects from that same music, and even the physical tapes themselves. >> the older tapes would have a lot of warping to them and like, the sounds would get pitched down or they would warble. and i was really intrigued by that at a very young age. so using that experience, i ended up kind of incorporating that same feeling of hearing these, like, warped tapes when i was younger in my own music by warping the samples later on. stephanie: maral's first project in 2019 was released solely on caet t out instantly.

while her music may be experimental, cassettes couldn't be more old school. they became popular in the 1970's and 1980's, an alternative to vinyl. compact discs had overtaken both formats by the early 1990's. but the emergence of digitized music and streaming services has eclipsed them all. yet, cassette tapes are having a moment. according to luminate, an entertainment industry data collector, u.s. tape sales increased by more than 440% between 2015 and 2022. in the past few years, mainstream artists like harry styles, billie eilish, and taylor swift have all capitalized on the fad. it's a resurgence similar to that of vinyl records, albeit on a much smaller scale. there's only a handful of cassette manufacturers left in the u.s.

one of them is nick keshishian, who still has the original equipment he used when cassette tapes were in their heyday. >> i retired in 2018 and a month later i keep getting phone calls from everybody that they want cassettes. and i know there's nobody around here that makes cassettes. and i kept all my equipment. i said, you know what? let me just do that. stephanie: he manufactures as many as 15,000 cassettes a month. a far cry from the nearly 60,000 his business produced weekly during peak popularity. so, worth coming out of retirement for? >> oh, definitely. definitely. i'm not a guy that can sit home and watch tv 24/7. stephanie: plus, he prefers listening to music on cassette. >> i love more slow, soft music. romantic music, those kinds of things.

my favorite artist is lionel richie. i have all my recordings on cassettes. in my car i have the cassette player. in my house i have cassette players. stephanie: but the cassette has never been the best medium to preserve sound. cd's and vinyl both offer a clearer and more consistent listening experience. tapes have shorter lifespans and things like heat and recorder malfunctions can cause parts of the cassettes to degrade faster than other mediums. but for some, that's the magic. >> for a lot of people who have collected them for years, some of the anomalies and imperfections are part of the charm of listening to tapes. stephanie: writer marc masters is working on a book about the history of cassettes and has a large collection himself. >> people want old stuff on cassettes as much as the new stuff. they really helped birth total genres. i mean, hip hop probably wouldn't exist the way we know it if it weren't fo cassette tapes. it started as a dj medium, and the dj's would dj live parties and people wanted to hear these

parties, so people would bring cassette players and tape them. it facilitated people being able to make and distribute their own music in ways that had never really happened before. stephanie: at under $10, they were also more accessible than vinyl records. >> the whole point of making tapes was to have a cheaper format that more people could use and more people shared. stephanie: another thing that made cassette tapes so popular back in the day was the debut of the sony walkman in 1979. it made the music format portable. allowing people to create a soundtrack for their everyday lives. >> i pretty much took my walkman everywhere. i remember even turning it up loud enough that i could mow the lawn and still hear tapes through my headphones. stephanie: going beyond our galaxy, or at least marvel's galaxy, there is something grounding about tunes played on an old walkman. the cassette released in conjunction with the guardians of the galaxy's second film was

the highest selling cassette last year -- 17,000 were sold. is it just a novelty or are they making a statement? >> i imagine people who buy that might not even actually listen to the tapes. it's a neat thing to have. but at the same time, if there's people who like tapes, who are buying tapes from these artists, that's a great thing. stephanie: for indie artists like maral, tapes are more than a throwback, they're blowback to a streaming industry that has left them high and dry. >> if you're making experimental or underground music, you cannot survive in this ecosystem. so it's about all of us thinking about how we can support artists more. stephanie: maral hopes her projects will live on.one. ea howt disintegrates through time. stephanie: and perhaps reaches through time, the way it did for her. for the "pbs newshour," i'm stephanie sy. amna: how cool is that? dear memory the first tape you bought? geoff: not anymore. [laughter] amna: we are going to be

thinking about it now. remember, there's much more online, including how a new satellite mission will offer us a different perspective on hurricanes, and might eventually inform our forecasts. geoff: and join us again here tomorrow night for the analysis of brooks and capehart. that is the "newshour" for tonight. i'm geoff bennett. amna: and i'm amna nawaz. on behalf of the entire "newshour" team, thank you for joining us. >> major funding for the "pbs newshour" has been provided by. the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. and friends of the "newshour." >> cunard is a proud supporter of public television. on a voyage with cunard, the world awaits. a world of flavor, diverse destinations, and immersive experiences. a world of entertainment, and british style.

all with cunard's white star service. >> architect. beekeeper. mentor. a raymondjames financial advisor tailors advice to help you live your life. life well-planned. >> the ford foundation, working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. and with the ongoing support of these institutions. and friends of the "newshour." this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you.

thank you. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy.]

introducing a technological achievement so advanced... it rivals the moon landing. wow! ok. rude. that's one small step for man.

one giant leap for mankind. ♪ >> hello everyone and welcome to amanpour and company. here is what is coming up. >> as american lawmakers race to avert a catastrophic debt default, what exactly is in the deal. we hone in on what will mean for climate policy and then: >> they described them as a paramilitary menace. there also a social movement. >> the brutal tactics of the right -- magna group and h its influence extends far beyond ukraine. plus the land of hope and fear. israel's battle for its inner soul. author and veteran new york times jerusalem respondent joins us for her new burke -- book. >>