good evening. i'm geoff bennett. amna nawaz is on assignment. on the "newshour" tonight, a tragic end to the search for the missing submersible after debris is located near the titanic. president biden welcomes india's prime minister for a state visit amid concerns over india's human rights record and china's growing influence. and we take a closer look at the impact of the nation's first-ever cash reparations program. >> it is time to do something radically different than we've done in the past. and reparations is that answer. >> major funding for the pbs

newshour has been provided by -- >> these are people who are trying to change the world. startups have this energy that energizes me. i'm thriving by helping others every day. people who know know bdo. >> pediatric surgeon, volunteer, topiary artist, a raymondjames financial advisor. taylor's advice to help you live your life. life well planned. >> the kendeda fund, committed to advancing restorative justice and meaningful work through investments in transformative leaders and ideas. more at kendeda fund.org. carmody foundation of new york

-- carnegie foundation of new york at carnegie.org. and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. geoff: good evening and welcome to the newshour. the u.s. coast guard confirmed this afternoon that the missing submerisble in the "north atlantic ocean" was destroyed in a, quote, "catastrophic implosion." its debris was found on the ocean floor, and all five people aboard were killed. william brangham begins our

coverage. >> this morning, an rov or remote-operated vehicle from the vessel horizon arctic discovered the tail cone of the titan submersible, approximately 1600 feet from the bow of the titanic on the seafloor. william: it was the news no one wanted to hear. the missing submersible, which disappeared on sunday on a descent down to visit the wreckage of the titanic, had been completely destroyed. u.s. coast guard rear admiral john mauger. >> the rov subsequently found additional debris. in consultation with experts from within the unified command, the debris is consistent with a castrophic loss of the pressure chamber. william: the u.s. coast guard

and the company that ran the trip, "oceangate expeditions," expressed their condolences to the families of the five passengers who perished. they are hamish harding, shahzada dawood and his son, suleman dawood, paul-henri nargolet, and oceangate ceo, and captain of the vessel, stockton rush. in a statement, oceangate thanked the vast, international search operation that mobilized over the last few days, saying, "the entire oceangate family is deeply grateful for the countless men and women from multiple organizations who worked so very hard on this mission." coast guard officials said that the nature of the implosion, and the depth at which the wreckage sits, could make any salvage operation and recovery of the deceased very difficult. >> this is a incredibly unforgiving environment down there, on the sea floor, and the debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel.

william: as those recovery operations continue, and the families grieve their losses, there are sure to be further questions about oceangate, its safety record, and the overall adventure tourism industry. in fact, as this saga unfolded over the last few days, past criticisms of "oceangate" had re-emerged. will kohnen is chairman of the marine technology society's "manned underwater vehicles committee." back in 2018, he addressed a critical open letter to the now-deceased "oceangate" ceo , stockton rush. in an interview before today's discovery, he argued that the titan was not certified to travel down to those depths. >> there are only 10 vehicles in the whole world that can go 4000 meters or deeper and all of them are certified, except the titan. william: coast guard officials couldn't say exactly when the titan imploded, but said the banging noises heard earlier in the week were seemingly unrelated to this disaster.

the titan's remains now lie in pieces on the ocean floor, less than 2000 feet from historic wreckage its passengers wanted to see. for the pbs newshour, im wb -- i am william brangham. geoff: some further perspective on this accident now, and what it could mean going forward. we're joined again by jules jaffe, an oceanographer with the scripps institute of oceanography at the university of california, san diego. thank you for being with us. when the coast guard says that the submersibles debris is consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber, what does that mean? what, based on your vast experience, likely happened? jules: as we know, the vehicle lost contact about one and three quarters hour after it left the surface and it was about 2.5 hours to the bottom so my conjecture is actually that it was not quite at the bottom but

was probably around 800 or 900 -- 8000 or 9000 feet deep. from what we understand, the pressure at that depth is around 4000 pounds per square inch so think about a square inch. think about 4000 pounds. when you think about the pressure, it's actually coming from all directions so the best analogy i could think about was imagine you have an egg in your hand and you simply crush it. i think honestly, that is what happened to the vehicle. geoff: what happens next? will there be a recovery effort or does the ocean depths make that impossible? jules: we do have these underwater robots that have arms on them and i think we could probably pick the debris up and load it into a large basket. these underwater robots are pretty versatile. i'm hoping that we can do that and learn really exactly what the failure was so a future

versn could ameliorate that problem and make tourist exploration of the deep ocean more accessible and less dangerous. geoff: as we just heard, there were questions about safety issues having to do with oceangate, about the quality of engineering, the level of testing that went into the development. how does all of that strike you in light of today's news? jules: my dad used to say, hindsight is 2020. it strikes me sadly that perhaps the company was not up to speed and understanding -- remember, we already made two trips. they were making about one trip a year as far as i could tell from reading the news. so they did one in 2021. they did one in 2022. here we are on the third trip. what happens to anything that is under stress, a mechanical component, is it fatigues. think about the tremendous pressure and then it relaxes and

tremendous pressure and it relaxes. the other part of the equation i really worried about and maybe it is validated was, you know, when we take planes, we are convinced of their safety, but we don't always understand that the aerospace industry has strict standards for doing what is a nondestructive test and evaluation and these ultrasonic probes to examine the integrity of the metal components. if you have ever seen a plane, the wings are flexing and those guys are world experts on ensuring our safety. it is pretty clear, sadly, that the people in this company were not up to speed on testing this vehicle and ensuring its safety for such a tragic occurrence that has happened probably four days ago when they lost contact with the surface. geoff: is adventure tourism going to change because of this? should it change because of this? jules: there is another company that makes underwater vehicles that have gone into the marianas trench which is 35,000 feet and

this 1 -- i would not call it a shallow application -- but it is 12,000 feet. i think adventure tourism is going to be here to stay. i am a supporter of innovation in underwater vehicle development. clearly, we need to be a little bit more vigilant, ensuring the safety and understanding the forces that are on vehicles. this design was very new. carbon fiber design with titanium, and i think we need to worry about more about the stresses and fatigue that happens when we make repeated excursions into the deep ocean. geoff: thank you so much for your time and insights. jules: my pleasure. ♪ geoff: in the day's other headlines, a small texas town faced the aftermath of a tornado that killed four people and ripped apart homes and businesses. at least one twister tore matador last night, a town of

-- tore through matador last night, a town of 570 people, about 70 miles from lubbock. daylight brought the damage into focus, a mile-long stretch of smashed buildings and wrecked vehicles. damage crews crawled over piles of debris. the storm front also spewed hail the size of soft balls and winds gusting near 100 miles an hour. tropical storm bret is closing in on the islands of the eastern caribbean tonight. officials in dominica, martinique, and st. lucia issued warnings today as they braced for heavy rain, landslides, and flooding. the islands have also suspended public transportation and closed airports and schools. president biden today defended calling china's president xi jinping a dictator. his comment earlier this week came after secretary of state antony blinken had met with xi in beijing. but at a white house news conference today, the president said his words will not undermine chances of better relations. pres. biden: we had an incident

that caused some confusion, you might say. but, secretary blinken had a great trip to china. i expect to be meeting with president xi sometime in the future, in the near term, and i don't think it's had any real consequence. geoff: the president went on to say that his blunt talk is, quote, "just not something i'm going to change very much." meantime, beijing filed a formal protest. it said the u.s. should act to undo the damage, or bear all the consequences. in the war in ukraine, an explosion damaged a key bridge linking crimea to occupied parts of southern ukraine. the chongar bridge serves as an important supply link for russian forces facing a ukrainian counter-offensive. the damage left a gaping hole in the bridge. the russians blamed missiles fired by ukraine's army. they said repairs could take several weeks. a court in moscow has denied an appeal by "wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich to end

his pre-trial detention. he's been held since late march on charges of espionage. today, he appeared in court behind a glass barrier, and smiled to reporters. afterward, the u.s. ambassador to russia denounced what she called "hostage diplomacy." >> this was a procedural hearing appealing the conditions of his continued detention and we were extremely disappointed by the denial of his appeal. he is an innocent journalist who was carrying out journalistic activities and has been wrongfully detained. geoff: today's ruling means gershkovich must stay in detention until at least late august while he awaits trial. and back in this country, wall street turned in a mixed performance after central banks in england, norway, switzerland and turkey raised interest rates. the dow jones industrial average lost a fraction of a percent to close at 33,946.

the nasdaq rose 128 points, 1%. the s&p 500 added 16. still to come on the "newshour," former texas congressman will hurd becomes the latest republican to launch a bid for the white house people brought to the u.s. illegaly as children share their hopes and fears ahead of a court ruling. and a cia officer reflects on his long career in a new book. >> this is the pbs newshour from weta studios in washington and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. geoff: the prime minister of what is now the world's most populous nation was received with the fanfare of a state visit today at the white house. india's narendra modi visits the u.s. at a crucial moment, as the white house seeks to marshal democracies to confront china, and support ukraine. but modi's own conduct is also under the microscope. the most elevated form of

american diplomacy, a state visit for indian prime minister narendra modi, heralded by marching bands and honor guards, aore pkeacd crowd on the south lawn. during the visit, the two leaders announced major defense partnerships come up pledged to share technology, conduct more joint military exercises, and increased security cooperation in the indo pacific. pres. biden: we discussed our work through the quad and how india and the united states, together with australia and japan, can ensure the vital indo pacific region remains free, open, prosperous, and secure. geoff: what brings them together closer than ever before is the rising challenge from china in the indo pacific region. washington has long viewed new delhi as a counterbalancing force to beijing. india has its own concerns, given escalating tensions along is 2100 mile long border with china. outside the white house today,

human rights groups protested modi, focusing on what many observers see as democratic black siding -- backsliding in the world's largest democracy. when asked, modi pushed back. >> i am actually really surprised that people say so. mocker is in our dna -- democracy is in our dna. we have always proved that democracy can deliver and when i said deliver, this is regardless of caste, creed, religion, gender. there is absolutelyfor discrimination. >> since modi's hindu right government came determination and hate crimes against india's muslims have sharply increased. including open calls for genocide from far-right groups affiliated with modi's political party. his critics say he crackdn on dissent, targets journalists, and introduced policies that

human rights groups say this were many against muslims. born in a small town, modi represents india's rags to riches story but he has roots in a staunchly far right hindu nationalist ideology. in 2002, he was accused of presiding over widespread anti-muslim violence in his home state of gujarat when he was head of the state government. more than 1000 people were killed. >> all of that was done under one man. the now prime minister of india. >> the daughter of a former police officer testified against modi, linking him to the carnage but is now jailed, sentenced to life imprisonment in a different case. his daughter says he was convicted on false charges for speaking out against modi. >> as my father started submitting evidence and testifying before various investigating bodies, him and us as a family were -- we had to face intimidation of various sorts.

death threats, attempts at his life, attempts at our life, our house being bulldozed, my father being dismissed from service, only because he testified against modi. >> following the riots, the u.s. imposed a travel ban on modi under a federal law for severe violations of religious freedom. the ban was lifted only after he was elected prime minister of india. india's top court leader exonerated him of all charges. >> by inviting him, by rolling out the red carpet, you are condoning his crackdown on human rights, the crackdown on free speech, on media, on the judiciary. >> after morning spent at the white house, modi addressed the joint session of congress. president biden hosts modi at a lavish state dinner tonight. with narendra modi, president biden and his team soft peddled many of the criticisms they often level at other legal --

leaders they believe are falling short on democratic values. we look at why and why this relationship is growing in importance with daniel markey. he's the senior adviser on south asia at the u.s. institute of peace, a federally-funded institution that works toward conflict resolution. he has also served in the state department. thanks so much for being with us. president biden is rolling out the red carpet for a leader who is said to be increasingly autocratic but who could be a key ally given rising tensions with russia and china. what is the cost benefit analysis for the u.s.? daniel: from the biden administration's perspective, there are huge upside benefits. they are thinking about the long-term and geopolitical competition with china. the scale issue looms large. it is 1.4 billion or so people in china and now, we have about the same number or a little bit more in adsl as they think about how to balance china, they look at india as a necessary factor

in that. and they see it as in or mislead helpful because india has this population, a huge market for u.s. goods, huge numbers of skilled workers, some of the brightest brains that have led to growth in america's own industry, especially the i.t. industry, and so on, so they see that as a huge upside benefit over the long-term. in the near term, as your piece pointed out, india is facing huge challenges along its border with china, a very acute military threat, and the biden administration recognizes that it has an interest in making sure that india is not intimidated, that it is not bossed around, because that sends a dangerous messageo other countries in the region, so there is sort of a long-term concern andear term as well. geoff: i spoke with senior white house officials who said president biden is trying to expand and fortify a coalition of democracies to really confront and counter china and russia. what strategic role does india play in both of those equations?

daniel: in terms of countering china, india is enormous. it is also interestingly located right along -- it dominates the indian ocean. and that is something that makes it useful because many of china's shipping lanes cross through the indian ocean. india is useful to the united states as it things about a strategy for, in a sense, containing china. with respect to russia, the story is very different. here, india has been a long time partner of russia going back to the cold war. india continues to buy considerable amount of military equipment from russia, but the united states recognizes that at this moment, as russia is in this war with ukraine, it is less able to deliver to india what india needs. so maybe this is a potential turning point in india's relationship with russia. the united states would like to be on the receiving end of the indian orders for defense agreement going forward. geoff: is that why this major

defense partnership is so important? is this a series deliverable or just something that appears on a sheet that the white house can say we have met and done something? daniel: this is serious, something that has been in the works for some time. have not quite cracked the code on how to get india to buy huge amounts of u.s. military equipment or potentially turn towards american suppliers and away from russia but this may be the moment for that to happen. in the past, we have seen sort of promises gone unmet. now, we are looking at a jet engine deal that could potentially powered indian jets for this generation and the next generation. we are looking at a big sale of drones. we are talking tens of billions of dollars and probably a lot more than that. so this is a big deal. geoff: the indian prime minister does not often to press conferences. his team tightly controls his message, his media availability, but he did engage in a press conference today. he was asked by sabrina of the wall street journal about his human rights violations, his

alleged record of human rights violations, and he said marcus he is in our dna. there is no russian of discrimination. is he right about that ?citrus -- about that? >> i don't believe that he is. india has become steadily less democratic under modi. your centerpiece appropriately identified a number of the problems that have happened on his watch appeared with respect to communal violence, with respecter the muslim community, which is over 200 million or so in india -- it is an and norma's part of the indian society. we -- enormous part of the indian society. we are talking about a lot of people. president obama pointed out today in an interview that if india begins to be more divided as a society, less unified, it is a less powerful and less capable american partner going forward. and because india is so large, it is a threat -- india's instability would be a threat to world stability, so i think it

is important that we ask serious questions about what modi is doing as a leader, particularly on the democratic front. very apt that today was one of the first times that he submitted to questions from the press. in india, this doesn't happen. he has more or less muzzled press, made it less effective, sort of watchdog of his government. and that is how he likes it. that is not the type of thing that a true democratic leader does. geoff: how does the indian prime ministers benefit from all of this back home? this day visit, all of the trappings that come with it? daniel: this is helpful for him politically. every time that he is celebrated on the world stage, he very skillfully brings that back to the indian public, portrays himself and india as a world leader and this is something he will play up this trip, certainly. other trips to other capitals in

the world as well as the g20 which india is hosting this year. all of these are leading up to next year's national elections so he is very shrewdly using his statesmanship as a means to suggest that he is the appropriate leader back to indian voters next year. geoff: really enjoyed speaking with you. thanks for coming in. appreciate it. ♪ the long list of republicans seeking their party's nomination for president grew by one more today. former congressman will hurd is kicking off his campaign with a direct hit at the field's frontrunner. lisa desjardins has more. >> the soul of our country is under attack. lisa: former congressman will hurd re-entering the political arena, this time in a run for president, is casting himself as a candidate who can bridge partisan divides. >> common sense says we're better together.

i know it. you know it. there's more that unites us than divides us. lisa: hurd left congress in 2020 after three house terms where he regularly took on then-president donald trump on issues like a southern border wall, guns, and political rhetoric. and he is openly taking on trump again now. >> and if we nominate a lawless, selfish, failed politician like donald trump, who lost the house, senate, and the white house, we all know joe biden will win again. lisa: in 2014, hurd beat a democratic congressman to win a district that stretches across the texas-mexico border. >> my colleagues know that i'm the only republican on the border. lisa: a former cia officer with stints in afghanistan, india, and pakistan, hurd focused on defense and national security. but he notably broke with republicans on key issues he voted to protect lgbtq americans from discrimination, and in favor of bipartisan police reform. >> keeping bad cops off the

force could prevent another killing like george floyd. lisa: on guns, he was one of eight house republicans who supported universal background checks in 2019. >> the bill has passed. lisa: that was before 19 kids and two teachers were killed in uvalde, texas last year. hurd represented that community in congress, and on the anniversary of that shooting, he told newshour he wants more limits on who can buy some guns. >> we know, if you move, if you turn the age to have a high-caliber rifle to go from 18 to 21, which is -- it's -- you have to be 21 to get a handcuff. that alone would have changed uvalde, and would have changed the lives of 21 families. lisa: with cross-party votes, came cross-party friendships. hurd made headlines in 2017 when he took a road trip from san antonio to d.c. with then-democratic congressman beto

o'rourke. >> we didn't always agree and we showed that we could disagree without being disagreeable. lisa: when he left congress, hurd was the only black republican in the house. >> howdy, iowa. lisa: and in this race, he'll be the most high-profile texan. >> we live in incredibly complicated and dangerous times and we need common sense leadership to solve these problems. lisa: a straight-forward message, but hurd is part of a growing republican field all aiming to stand out. for the pbs newshour, i'm lisa desjardins. ♪ geoff: after marking its 11th anniversary this month, a long-standing immigrant protection program could be struck down by a federal court in texas.

a judge is expected to hand down a decision this month about the legality of daca, the deferred action for childhood arrivals, that protects undocumented immigrants who came to the u.s. as children from deportation. there are more than half a million daca recipients and many are in limbo as they await the judge's ruling. we hear from some of them now. jonathan: hi, my name is jonathan rodas. i am a daca recipient. i am originally from el salvador. katia: my name is katia rubio leal. i was born in hidalgo, mexico, raised in arkansas, but now reside in kansas city. i attend rocherst university. i'm a rising senior. onion: i go by onion ha. lived in this country since i was five, six years old and have been on daca since 2016. aurora: my name is aurora. i am 24 years old. i came here when i was 10 months old from mexico. i applied for daca, but i've been blocked.

so meantime, i am undocumented. i don't have daca. jonathan: with my daca, i felt for this 10 years, 11 years now, i have felt that i'm part of this country. i'm part because i'm paying taxes. i have a job. i'm going to school, and i'm getting in-state tuition. i'm getting all the benefits as a u.s. citizen or a green card holder and everything. katia: i'm able to find like really good jobs that like not many people would be able to do because i have a work permit. jonathan: only con on it is that is that we are in constant fear and a constant fear that, like, for example, this judge can strike it down real quick and then we're in limbo. katia: that strain that it's $500 every two years for my myself and my two brothers. there was one case when the mail lost my brother's card and we had to pay the $500 again, even

though the mail carrier lost it. again, it's $500. it is not always that easy for people. aurora: i was a freshman in college, and so that was the first time i applied. and the trump administration blocked applications. that was the first time i got blocked. and then the second time was in 2021. that was the day that everything changed once against me because i thought that, you know, my future would be different. katia: there's still so much that i can't do. there's since i'm majoring in biomedical engineering, i have to do a lot of research, especially to get into grad school. when i try and look for opportunities, all of them are like, you have to be a u.s. citizen, you have to be a u.s. citizen, a resident. so i just go down the line knocking out things that i can't do because of my status still. onion: i can only think in to two-year increments. it's traumatizing because you can't have any peace. you can't live with peace. you have to constantly think of, like, contingency plans and backup plans. and you just got to just kind of work with the flow. and it's unfair because your

life is just in e whims of people that don't even know what you're going through. aurora: another struggle is that everyone's moving forward. you know, i've seen my family friends graduate already, start families, buy a house. you know, i'm still in the same i'm still in the same situation of my life that i haven't been moving forward. katia: i've been having it for like six years almost about. i've been in school, i've had really good grades, i've done good jobs. i don'have a speeding ticket, you know, like what is prohibiting me from becoming a citizen if i'm a law abiding person? and people prove themselves year after year that they want to be here in this country. they want to do good, they want their security, but they're still nogranted it at all. onion: i constantly struggle between my korean and my american identity because now people are telling me i'm not american and i don't deserve to be in this country and i need to get out of here because i made the wrong choice when i was five, six years old. and it's like i never made the decision anyways.

so it's like, it's insane. so it's like, yeah, like the's a daily struggle with, like, your identity of who you are. and, you know, you have to reaffirm that you are, you know, you rightfully deserve to be in this country. geoff: in 2019, evanston, illinois, past the first reparations law in history. economics correspondent paul solman recently visited the chicago suburb to follow-up on the progress of the program. it's part of our ongoing series, race matters. >> the hospital would not accept black mothers so my father drove me to cook county hospital to be born. as a baby, i came back. my father bought the house in

1930. paul: 88-year-old lou weathers' house in evanston, illinois, home to a longstanding black community which comprises some 16% of the city's 75,000 inhabitants. some of whom like donna walker, , still bitter about the past. donna: i am truly waiting for 40 acres and a mule. a jackass will be fine for me, but just give me some acreage and i'll be okay. paul: evanston isn't offering the acreage, but given the persistent and huge wealth and health gaps ever since slavery, it is trying to make amends, with a first-of-its-kind reparations project that's spreading. robin: we had an official side event at the united nations last week, sharing the model. the growth from 2019 and today there are over 100 localities , that have taken a first step towards reparations for their community. paul: former city councilor robin rue simmons spearheaded reparations here in 2019, $10 million to be spent over 10 years, funded by taxes on

newly-legalized cannabis and by real estate transfers. so far, 16 recipients of $25,000 each. lou: i just figured the country would not approve nothing like that. paul: lou weathers wasn't just surprised. lou: i was shocked. paul: shocked. lou: yeah. paul: weathers used his $25,000 to reduce his son's mortgage in evanston. lou: anytime you can reduce your mortgage, your mortgage payment is going to be lower. his bill is going to be lower. he can use the money for other things. donna: i have said from the beginning that we were not going to see this money at all. paul: but hairdresser donna walker was wrong. >> some people did see it and i'm very happy that they did. and i'm happy that the elders are able to, you know, pay taxes on their home and fix it up. paul: walker's next door neighbor, fellow hairdresser gigi giles, is on the waiting list for funds that will come in future years. so you figure you will get it eventually?

gigi: eventually. if not, my grandchildren or my daughters will get it. paul: what will you do with the money? gigi: i would fix up my home. i would do my kitchen and two bathrooms. paul: can you do that for $25,000? gigi: i'd make it work. [laughter] paul: initially, reparations money only counted toward housing-related projects, mortgage payments, home improvements, or a downpayment. in march, evanston city council added the option of direct cash payments, because some felt a restricted grant was demeaning. recipients should be able to do what they want with the $25,000. donna: most of us here can't even afford to live here. paul: like donna walker. >> if you give me something, you can't tell me how to spend it. so it's like, you know, you have people like, well, what are they going to spend it on, man? i'm going to buy newports and a cadillac.

like, come on, really? paul: newport cigarettes, that is. lou weathers prefers housing investment, though. lou: anytime you have grants and stuff like that, two sides have to get something out of it. the city making people improve their property helps me because i own property. that's gonna increase my value, my property. paul: now not everyone in evanston is pro-reparations, of course. >> i don't think it's a good idea. there are people who need help, and help should not be predicated on someone's race, creed, color, orientation. paul: a local businessman, who called us later trying to take back the interview. a bit late, but as a courtesy, no name or face. >>gare ainst the chinese and those were enforced around 1883 to 1943. so if we go by that standard, well, then we owe the chinese recompense. we owe the japanese even more recompense. and there comes a point where we're a flawed society. i think the thing we need to do is move forward. paul: evanston mayor daniel biss

wasn't surprised to hear of the reluctance to say this on camera. mayor daniel: i do think people feel like if i come out and say reparations is a dumb idea, we should not do that, i'm just not going to make a lot of friends. i'm not going to gain a lot of support. paul: but reparations champion simmons says taking a stand means ignoring the blowback, no matter how unpleasant what she herself has received online. robin rue simmons: it's the ghetto lottery, or you know, you monkey, you slave, and go back to africa, that type of stuff. paul: but the overall reaction, at least in this liberal city, according to the liberal mayor. mayor biss: i think it's something that we're enormously proud of. i think it's an important step, one might argue a partial step or an inadequate step. it's still a really important step toward both on a factual level, reckoning with our past, but also creating the concrete equity that our community has been talking about for probably four or five generations but has never really fully realized. paul: is the pride pervasive, i

asked our camera-shy businessman? >> -- so if roughly half the population are white, what proportion of those people do you think don't think this is a good idea? who think as you do? >> you don't even bring it up because people are afraid to really express their thoughts. so i wouldn't be able to give you an honest answer. paul: at nearby northwestern university, professor al tillery is studying the response to the reparations initiative. >> we so far have gotten close to 4000 respondents, people writing in. paul: so he doesn't have results yet. but although, in nationwide polling, few whites are in favor >> i don't think we're going to be at the 15% for where white people are nationally. i think we're going to be much higher than that. will we be over 50% with our white population? i don't know. yeah, i mean, you know, so i

50% approval, i think that would -- i mean, if we found between 30% and 50% approval, i think that would be like finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. i mean, that nowhere else will it have been so high. paul: and where does the program go from here? mayor biss: more revenue is going to come in both through cannabis and also through the real estate transfer tax that will allow more grants to be allocated. there's a long waiting list of ancestors, behind them is a long waiting list of descendants. and behind them are a lot of other people in this community who were mistreated or whose ancestors were mistreated by the city government through policies the city government deliberately enacted. and we have a lot of work to do . paul: just to deal with the 600 or so applicants thus far. especially, says the mayor, in a city now so pricey many blacks can't afford to stay, like dwayne logan at gigi giles' salon. dwayne: i'm from evanston, but i don't currently live in evanston. because the taxes are so high, i had to buy a house in skokie. paul: right, says simmons, because blacks were never able to build generational wealth, which inspired her push for reparations. robin rue simmons: i was looking

at the race gaps and every area i was looking at the loss of , black community, residents leaving almost every day because of lack of affordability, not feeling a sense of place, going to other communities where they felt more hopeful. and opportunity. the black experience in this city and in this nation has been in a state of emergency since we were kidnapped from west africa and brought here. and so it is time to do something radically different than we've done in the past. and reparations is that answer. paul: about time, says gigi giles. gigi: you know, people want to see money. money talks. and then they probably will be happy, but you know, it is what it is. it's a start. paul: and she's still living here, and running the business her father started 60 years ago. for the pbs newshour, paul solman in evanston, illinois.

geoff: the cia and the defense department are two of the u.s. gove paramilitary amend militntary operations around the world. amna has this conversation now with the author of a new memoir, who has played key roles in both agencies. amna: since the 1980's, the united states has carried out a number of large scale covert military operations aimed at the soviet union, al qaeda, and osama bin laden. iran and north korea, just to name a few. a lot has been written about all of this, but now one man who played a key role in part of those operations has stepped out of the shadows to share his story in a new book called "by all means, available memoirs of a life in intelligence, special operations and strategy." that author michael vickers joins me here now.

it was in 1984 that you got your first permanent assignment at the cia. they were fighting the soviets who had invaded in 19 79. you came in and essentially changed the entire cia program. tell us about that. what did you do? michael: the program had received a large increase in funding, quadrupling the budget from congress, particularly led by charlie wilson. a movie has been made after that story and his role. i thought there were a lot of possibilities with these greatly increased resources. the cia had not asked for it but it was just given to them. and then i thought maybe we could do more than just impose costs on the soviets for their occupation of afghanistan. our analysts believed there is no way the resistance could begin in the red army had been defeated. someone's letter, i came up with

a plan to do it that then got implemented. geoff: this was all it -- this was all about beating the soviets. michael: president reagan signed a directive to beat the soviets to drive them out of afghanistan by all means available and hence that is where the title of the book comes. amna: we now know how that u.s. support for the afghan mujahedin at the time that to other consequences, to the empowerment of other islamic extremists and contributed to the birth of al qaeda and ultimately attacked the u.s. on 9/11. he wrote about this, about the hind sight in the book. we missed strategic significance of the afghan arabs, the volunteers who would form al qaeda and we did not just debate how the defeat of one superpower would motivate al qaeda to wage a global war against the sole remaining superpower or the u.s. if you could go back and do something differently, would you

have changed how you run the program all those years ago? amna: no -- michael: no, i don't think so. amna: you were arming some of the most extreme militants? michael: it was divided between more fundamentalist groups and more traditionalists, royalists, secular. and some of the fundamentalist groups did make common cause with the taliban after 1996 and we became their enemies and they became ours. i do not think -- i don't think we would have done anything differently in terms of the soviet war. amna: you left the cia after the soviets withdrew from afghanistan and you joined the george w. bush administration, working on special operations one of your main areas of focus were drone strikes that were ramping up at the time. an was a period of time in which i personally i was ond the ground, as i mentioned to you earlier, in the part of the world where the u.s. was dropping more drones and drone strikes than anywhere else in the pakistan and afghanistan

border region. and i saw the buildup of anti-american sentiment at the time as a result of those strikes. were those strikes worth it in the end? michael: yes, i think they really helped prevent another 9/11 attack. you know, after al qaida resettled in the afghanistan-pakistan border region, the threat to the united states went way up. and so we had the transatlantic airline plot to blow up ten airliners over the atlantic, you know, a 9/11 scale attack that might have killed several thousand people in 2006. and so president bush made the decision to launch a new campaign in 2008 to really start using these these weapons, these drone strikes against al qaeda and its safe haven providers and the border region. and president obama sustained it. and within about four years of that core, al qaida's back was essentially broken in that region.

and its ability to plot more was limited. and from polling i remember at the time, the closer the closer you were to the militants, where you were being bullied by them or other things, the more the local populace supported it, the further you were away. -- the further you were away, it looked like a violation of pakistani sovereignty. so people in the so-called settled areas of pakistan had much stronger feelings against these things than those right in the border region. amna: many of those strikes were carried out against people who we did not know who they were. their identities weren't known until after they were killed. in some cases, the signature strikes in which people were being targeted simply based on on signature behavioral aspects or location, and we also know a number of civilians were killed along the way, too. there were mistakes. women and children killed. a u.s. citizen, warren weinstein, who was held hostage in the area, was killed. do we get know the full cost in

terms of civilians and people who shouldn't have been killed as a result of u.s. actions? michael: well, i think we have a pretty good idea. i mean, one of the decisions president obama made late in his administration was to release the best data that we had in the u.s. intelligence about the number of non-combatant or civilian casualties, but that number was pretty small. it was in the 60 to 100. amna: you are saying 60 to 100 civilians killed? michael: yeah, out of about 3000 combatants. amna: the bureau of investigative journalism that tracks that says that the civilian casualties could be upwards of 1700 people. michael: yeah, i don't think that's right. i don't think the u.s. government believes that either. amna: you mentioned another major operation. you were a part of, which was the u.s. operation to kill osama bin laden in after by pakistan in 2011. and that option, that nighttime special forces raid was really the most risky of all the options on the table at the time is my understanding. you were in meetings with president obama and the cia had the secretaries of defense and

state. how was that option chosen? michael: so the options operationally ranged from air strikes, big bomber strike to small drone strike, and then various kinds of raids. and some were rejected like a big bomber strike would have caused collateral damage. you know, not only would have killed women and children in the house with osama bin laden, but neighbors as well. and so that one got rejected pretty quickly. a small drone strike option didn't have much reliability to it. it would only work when bin laden was walking around for exercise and a very small bomb might not might have missed might have injured him, and then he would have fled. so president obama settled on the seal raid that we ended up one version of a special operations raid, but the one we ended up conducting and that was the best option. it had its risky elements, but we tried to reduce the risk as much as we could by adding additional helicopters, reinforcing forces, etc., to make sure the force could get in and out.

and so with the special operations raid, if we got him and got his dna, we would be able to convincingly tell the world if we had done an airstrike, we wouldn't have. amna: the book is "by all means available, memoirs of a life and intelligence special operations and strategy." michael vickers, thank you so much for being here. michael: pleasure to be with you. thank you. geoff: the new york city urban debate league has helped over 100 new york city schools get access to debate training for students. tonight, we hear from two middle school students who particpate in the league, with their brief but spectacular takes on debate and democracy. francis: to have a good debate you need to stay calm and , prepare. erick: respect is a huge factor in debate, because if you don't respect your opponent, you can't

even respect the judge, then what are you doing there? to be honest, it's not even a debate at that point. it's just argument. i'm 11 years old and i go to ms50 in brooklyn, new york. i'm currently a sixth grader and i'm a debater and a basketball player. francis: i go to psms 161 in harlem, new york. i'm in seventh grade. erick: i've been doing debate for three to four years now. well, it all started in third grade where there was this new program happening in my elementary school and i was quite eager to try it out. and then there we learned how to like debate and now here i am. moe: should the united states federal government ban tiktok? erick: tiktok should be banned due amid concerns that their partner company would give users information, data, like such as browser history and location to the chinese government and push propaganda. francis: i think we shouldn't ban tiktok because it gives the young people and other people the voice that they deserve. francis: new york city urban debate league is just basically a league of debate where

different schools and different cultures around new york city and the boroughs, they come together for different tournaments. erick: it's important to have these programs out because it promotes diversity in all communities francis: i love debate because i get to talk. a lot of the time, i've had to switch how i usually perceive things. erick: when somebody asks me a question, i try my best to answer it fully and then come at them with a question that's even harder. moe: what's the better borough? manhattan or brooklyn? francis: i think the best borough isanhattan. we have lots of good arts and culture and entertainment in manhattan. there's a really good food. practically almost everywhere, there's some kind of train station. so in and out, you can be all the way half across the city from an hour to 30 minutes. erick: i see your point, but i believe brooklyn has also a lot of culture with mostly mixed communities like dominican and black and jewish, all in one community. we have a lot of diversity. erick: one of the most important things about debating is being yourself, because if you're not

yourself, then who are you? you know, you have to be confident in your abilities or what you can do as a person. if you're confident in yourself and your abilities, you can do anything you want. francis: debate is important for the real world because it will allow you to understand others' perspectives. sometimes looking at the other person's perspective can change your own. francis: if people could understand the other perspective then it would make it much easier to do things. erick: to be honest, if you win or you lose, it's still winning at the end of the day because you're learning something, trying your best, being excellent in your own way, and just pushing through. francis my name is francis. :erick: my name is erick. both: and this is my brief but spectacular take on debate a democracy. geoff: some compelling arguments. that is fantastic. you can watch more brief but spectacular videos online at pbs.org/newshour/brief. and that's the newshour for tonight.

join us again tomorrow as we will hear from women about their experiences in a year since the u.s. supreme court overturned roe v. wade and the constitutional right to an abortion. i'm geoff bennett. thanks for spending part of your evening with us. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by -- ♪ the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. and friends of the newshour including leonard and norma and patricia ewing. >> we are a proud supporter of public television. on a voyage, the world awaits. a world of flavor, diverse destinations, and immersive experiences. a world of entertainment and british style. all with white star service.

>> for 25 years, consumer cellular has been offering wireless plans designed to help people do more of what they like. our u.s.-based customer service team can help find a plan that fits you. to learn more, visit consumer cellular.tv. >> the ford foundation, working with visionaries on social change worldwide. and with the ongoing support of these institutions. ♪ and friends of the newshour. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning performed by the

national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy.] ♪ ♪ ♪ >>

♪ ♪ hello and welcome to "amanpour & company." here's what's coming up. underwater sounds heard in the search for the missing submersible. but the news comes as precious oxygen supply dwindles. we look at the desperate race to save the crew with former international space station commander terry virts. also -- >> wake up in the night to physically torture him and i want him to get medical access immediately. >> a daughter pleads for her father's health as new extremism charges against russian opposition leader alexei navalny could add decades to his sentence. i talk to his associate and friend ashurkov. then special olympics chairman timothy shriver seize