geoff: gooevening. i'm geoff bennett. amna nawaz is on assignment. on the newshour tonight. a tragic end to the search for the missing submersible after debris is located near the titanic. president biden welcomes india's prime minister for a state visit amid concerns over india's human rights record and china's growing influence. and. we take a closer look at the impact of the nation's first-ever cash reparations program. >> it is time to do something radically different than we've done in the past. and reparations is that answer. ♪ >> major funding for the pbs has

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international peace and security. at carnegie.org. and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. ♪ >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by viewers like you. thank you. geoff: good evening and welcome to the newshour. the u.s. coast guard confirmed this afternoon that the missing submerisble in the north atlantic ocean was destroyed in a -- quote-- catastrophic implosion. its debris was found on the ocean floor, and all five people aboard were killed.

william brangham begins our coverage. >> this morning, an rov or remote-operated vehicle from the vessel horizon arctic discovered the tail cone of the titan submersible, approximately 1600 feet from the bow of the titanic on the seafloor. william: it was the news no one wanted to hear. the missing submersible, which disappeared on sunday on a descent down to visit the wreckage of the titanic, had been completely destroyed. >> the rov subsequently found additional debris. in consultation with experts from within the unified command, the debris is consistent with a catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber. william: the u.s. coast guard and the company that ran the trip -- oceangate expeditions -- expressed their condolences to

the families of the 5 passengers who perished. they are -- hamish harding. shahzada dawood and his son, suleman dawood. paul-henri nargolet. and oceangate ceo, and captain of the vessel, stockton rush. in a statement, oceangate thanked the vast, international search oration that mobilized over the last few days, saying -- the entire oceangate family is deeply grateful for the countless men and women from multiple organizations who worked so very hard on this mission. coast guard officials said that the nature of the implosion, and the depth at which the wreckage sits, eropation -- andov recery of th deceased -- very difficult. >> this is an incredibly unforgiving environment down there, on the sea floor, and the debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel.

william: as those recovery operations continue, and the families grieve their losses, there are sure to be further questions about oceangate, its safety record, and the overall adventure tourism industry. in fact, as this saga unfolded over the last few days, past criticisms of oceangate had re-emerged. will kohnen is chairman of the marine technology society loss -- society's manned underwater vehicles committee. back in 2018, he addressed a critical open letter to the now-deceased oceangate ceo stockton rush. in an interview before today's discovery he argued that the , titan was not certified to travel down to those depths. >> there are only 10 vehicles in the whole world that can go 4,000 meters or deeper and all of them are certified, except the titan. william: coast guard officials couldn't say exactly when the

titan imploded, but said the banging noises heard earlier in the week were seemingly unrelated to this disaster. the titans remains now lie in pieces on the ocean floor, less than 2000 feet from historic wreckage its passengers wanted to see. for the pbs newshour, i'm william brangham. geoff: some additional perspective now and what it could mean going forward. we are joined by jules jeff, and oceanographer at the university of california san diego. when the coast guard says that the submersible cost debris is consistent with the catastrophic loss of the pressure chamber, what does that mean? what likely happened? >> as we know, the vehicle lost contact about one 75 hours after it left the surface. it was about 2.5 hours to the

bottom. my conjecture is that it was probably around 800 or 900 -- 8000 or 9000 feet deep. from what we understand, the pressure at that depth is around 4000 pounds per square inch. think about ace aaron judge, think about -- think about 4000 pounds, think about a square inch. imagine you have an egg in your hand and you simply crush it and i think that is what happened to the vehicle. geoff: what happens next? will there be every effort or does the ocean depth make that impossible? >> we do have these underwater robots that have arms on them and i think we could probably pick the debris a and loaded into the large baskets.

i'm hoping we can do that and learn what the failure was so we can ameliorate that problem and make tourism less dangerous. geoff: there were questions about safety issues having to do with oceangate and the quality of engineering and the level of testing in the development. how does all of that strike you? >> i guess my dad used to say hindsight is 20/20. it strikes me sadly that perhaps the company was not up to speed and understanding. they are making about one trip a year as far as i could tell from reading the news. they did one in 2021, one in 2022, and here we are on the third trip. what happens to anything under stress, it fatigues. think about the tremendous

pressure and then it relaxes. the other part of the equation i really worried about is when we take planes, we are convinced of their safety but we don't always understand that the aerospace industry has strict standards. the use ultrasonic probes to examine the integrity of the metal components. the wings are flexing and those guys are world experts on ensuring their safety. it is clear sadly that the people were not vehicle and u ensuring its safety for such a tragic occurrence that happened probably four days ago. geoff: his adventure tourism going to change because of this? should it? >> there is another company that makes underwater vehicles that

have gone into the marianas trench. this one and i wouldn't call that a shallow application, is 12,000 feet. i think adventure tourism is here to stay and i am a supporter of innovation in underwater view development, but we need to be clearer in ensuring the safety. this design was very new. it was carbon fibers combined with titanium. we need to worry about the stresses and fatigue when we make repeated excursions into the deep ocean. geoff: thanks for your time and insights. ♪ stephanie: i'm stephanie sy with newshour west. here are the latest headlines. abortion pills will remain legal in wyoming for now. a state judge suspended today wyoming's first-in-the-nation

abortion-pill ban, which was scheduled to take effect july 1st. the ruling allows a lawsuit challenging the ban to procede. 15 states restrict access to medication abortion, but none has an outright ban on abortion pills like wyoming was seeking to impose. a small texas town faced the aftermath of a tornado that killed four people and ripped apart homes and businesses. at least one twister tore through matador last night, a town of 570 people, about 70 miles from lubbock. daylight bught the damage into focus, a mile-long stretch of smashed buildings and wrecked vehicles. damage crews crawled over piles of debris. the storm front also spewed hail the size of soft balls and winds gusting near 100 miles an hour. tropical storm bret is closing in on the isnds of the eastern caribbean tonight. officials in dominica, martinique and st. lucia issued warnings today as they braced for heavy rain, landslides and flooding. the islas have also suspended

public transportation and closed airports and schools. president biden today defended calling china's president xi jinping a dictator. his comment earlier this week came after secretary of state antony blinken had met with xi in beijing. but at a white house news conference today, th said his words will notpres undermine chances of better relations. >> we had an incident that caused some confusion, you might say. but, secretary blinken had a great trip to china, i expect to be meeting with president xi sometime in the future, the near term, and i don't think it's had any real consequence. stephanie: beijing filed a formal protest. it said the u.s. should act to undo the damage or bear all the consequences. in the war in ukraine, an explosion damaged a key bridge linking crimea to occupied parts of southern ukraine.

chongar bridge serves as an important supply link for russian forces facing a ukrainian counter-offensive. damage left a gaping hole in the bridge. the russians blamed missiles fired by ukraine's army. they said repairs could take several weeks. a court in moscow has denied an appeal by wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich to end his pre-trial detention. he's been held since late march on charges of espionage. he appeared in court behind a glass barrier and smiled to reporters. afterward, the u.s. ambassador to russia denounced what she called hostage diplomacy. >> this was a procedural hearing appealing the conditions of his continued detention and we were extremely disappointed by the denial of his appeal. he is an innocent journalist who was carrying out journalistic activities and has been wrongfully detained.

stephanie: the ruling means gershkovich must stay in detention until at least late august while he awaits trial. back in this country, the supreme court ruled 5-to-4 against the navajo nation today in a water rights case. in the decades-long case the tribe argued that treaty law requires the federal government to assess the tribe's water needs and come up with a plan to meet them. the biden administration had said if the court sided with the navajos, other tribes could also bring lawsuits. still to come on the newshour. former texas congressman will hurd becomes the latest republican to launch a bidor the white house. people brought to the u.s. illegaly as children share their hopes and fears ahead of a court ruling and a cia officer reflects on his long career in a new book.

>> this is the pbs newshour. >> the prime minister of what is now the world's most populous nation was received with the fanfare of a state visit today at the white house. india's narendra modi visits the u.s. at a crucial moment as the white house seeks to marshal democracies to confront china and support ukraine. but modi's own conduct is also under the microscope. a state visit for indian prime minister narendra modi, heralded by marching bands and honor guards while standing with president biden before a packed crowd on the south lawn. during the visit, the two leaders announced major defense partnerships; pledged to share

technology; conduct more joint military exercises; and increase security cooperation in the indo-pacific. in a defining moment of the u.s.-india relationship. >> we discussed our work through the quad and our india and the united states together with australia and japan. can ensure the vital indo pacific region remains free. open, prosperous and secure. >> what brings them together, closer than ever before, is the rising challenge from china in the indo-pacific region washington has long viewed new delhi as a counterbalancing force to beijing. india has its own concerns, given escalating tensions along its 2100-mile-long border with china. outside the white house, human rights groups protested against modi focusing on what many observers see as democratic backsliding in the world's largest democracy. when asked about it in a joint press briefing by an american journalist, modi pushed back. >> i'm actually really surprised that people say so. and so -- democracy is in our dna. we have always proved democracy can deliver and this is

regardless of caste, creed. there is no space for discrimination. >> discrimination and hate crimes against india's muslims have sharply increased, including open calls for genocide. modi's critics say he cracks down on dissent and has introduced policies that human rights say discriminate against muslims. born as a tea-seller in a small town, modi represents india's rags to riches story. but has roots in a staunchly far-right hindu nationalist ideology. in 2002, he was accused of presiding over widespread anti-muslim violence in his home state of gujarat when he was head of the state government. more than 1,000 people were killed. >> all of that was done to cement the political ambition of one man, the then chief minister of gujarat, the now-prime minister of india. >> aakashi bhatt is the daughter

of a former police officer, sanjiv bhatt, who testified against modi, linking him to the carnage. bhatt is jailed, sentenced to life imprisonment in a different case. his daughter says he was convicted on false charges for speaking out against modi >> as my father started submitting evidence and started testifying before various investigating bodies, him and us as a family were -- we had to face intimidation of various sorts from the government, be it death threats, attempts at his life, attempts at our life, our house being bulldozed, my father being dismissed from service only because he testified against modi. >> following the riots, severe violations of religious freedom. india's top court exonerated him of all charges.

>> they rolled out the red carpet. you are condoning his crackdown on human rights, the crackdown on free speech, on the media, on the judiciary. geoff: after a morning spent at the white house, modi later addressed a joint session of congress. president biden hosts modi at a lavish state dinner tonight. with narendra modi, president biden and his team have soft-peddled many of the criticisms they often level at other leaders who they believe are falling short on democratic values. we look at why -- and why this relationship is growing in importance -- with daniel markey. he's the senior adviser on south asia at the u.s. institute of peace, a federally-funded institution that works toward conflict resolution. he has also served in the state department. thanks so much for being with us. president biden is rolling out the red carpet for a leader who is said to be increasingly autocratic.

what is the cost benefit analysis >> there are huge upside benefits. they are thinking about the long-term and geopolitical competition with china. this k lsu looms large. now we have about the same number in india. as i think about how to balance china, they have a necessary factor huge numbers of skilled workers, especially the i.t. industry. they see that as a huge upside benefit over the long term and in the near term as your piece pointed out, india is facing a huge challenge along its border

with china, a very acute military threat in the biden administration recognizes that it is not bossed around because it sends a dangerous precedent. >> i spoke with senior white house officials who said president biden is trying to expand the coalition. what strategic role does india play in both of those equations? >> in terms of countering china, india is enormous and it is interestingly located, it dominates the indian ocean. that is something that makes it useful. india is useful to the united states as it thinks about a strategy for containing china.

with respect to russia, the story is very different. india has been a longtime partner of russia going back to the cold war. but the united states recognizes that at this moment is russia is in this war with ukraine it is less able to deliver what india need. the united states would like to be one of the receiving end? >> is that why this major defense partnership is important? is this a serious deliverable or is this a one sheet? >> this is serious. haven't quite cracked the code on how to get india to buy huge amounts of military equipment or turn toward american and western suppliers, but this may be the moment for that to happen. in the past, we have seen

promises and now we are looking at a jet engine deal that could power indian jets for this generation and the next generation. we are looking at a big sale of drones and we are looking at tens of billions of dollars. geoff: the indian prime minister does not often do press conferences. but he did engage in a press conference today and he was asked by sabrina siddiqui about his human rights violation and he said democracy is in our dna, there is no question of discrimination. is he right? >> i don't believe that he is. i believe that under his leadership india has become steadily less democratic. your set up piece identified a number of the problems that have happened on his watch, with respect to communal violence

against the muslim community. is that it -- it is an enormous part of indian society. we are talking about a lot of people. that is dangerous for what president obama pointed out, he recognized that if india begins to be more divided as a society, it is a less powerful and capable american partner going forward. because india is so large, it would be a threat to world stability. i think it is important that we ask serious questions about what he is doing as a leader and particularly on the democratic front. it was very apt that today was one of the first times that he submitted to questions from the press. in india, he has more or less muzzled the press. it is a watchdog of his government and that is how he likes it.

that is not the thing a true democratic leader does. geoff: how does the indian prime minister benefit from this back home? >> this is enormously helpful for him politically. every time he is celebrated on the world stage, he brings that back to the indian public, portrays himself and india as a world leader. this is something he will play up this trip. other trips to other capitals in the world, as well as the g20 which india is hosting. this is leading up to next year's national elections. he is using his statesmanship. geoff: really enjoyed speaking with you. thanks for coming in.

geoff: the long list of republicans seeking their party's nomination for president grew by one more today. former congressman will hurd is kicking off his campaign with a direct hit at the field's frontrunner. lisa desjardins has more. >> the soul of our country is under attack. >> former congressman will hurd re-entering the political arena, this time in a run for president is casting himself as a candidate who can bridge partisan divides. >> common sense says we are better together. i know it. you know it. there is more that unites us than divides us. >> hurd left congress in 2020 after three house terms where he regularltook on then-president donald trump on issues like a southern border wall, guns, and political rhetoric. and he is openly taking on trump again now. >> and if we nominate a lawless, selfish, failed politician like donald trump, who lost t house, senate, and the white house, we all know joe biden will win again.

>> in 2014, hurd beat a democratic congressman to win a district that stretches across the texas-mexico border. >> my colleagues know that i'm the only republican on the border. >> a former c.i.a. officer with stints in afghanistan, india and pakistan -- hurd focused on defense and national security. but he notably broke with republicans on key issues -- he voted to protect lgbtq americans from discrimination, and in favor of bipartisan police reform -- >> keeping bad cops off the force could prevent another killing like george floyd. >> on guns, he was one of 8 house republicans who supported universal background checks in 2019. >> the bill has passed. [laughter] >> that was before 19 kids and 2 teachers were killed in uvalde, texas last year. hurd represented that community in congress and on the anniversary of that shooting, he told newshour he wants more limits on who can buy some guns.

>> we know, if you move -- if you turn the age to have a high-caliber rifle to go from 18 to 21, which is -- it's -- you have to be 21 to get a handcuff desk handgun -- handgun, that alone would have changed you baldly and would have changed the lives of 21 families. >> with cross-party votes, came cross-party friendships. >> hurd made headlines in 2017 when he took a road trip from san antonio to d.c. with then-democratic congressman beto o'rourke. >> we didn't always agree and we showed that we could disagree without being disagreeable. >> when he left congress, hurd was the only black republican in the house. and in this race, he will be the most help -- high-profile texan. >> we live in incredibly complicated and dangerous times and we need common sense leadership to solve these

problems. >> a straightforward message, but hurd is part of a growing republican field all aiming to stand out. for the pbs, i'm lisa desjardins . ♪ geoff: after marking it's 11th anniversary this month, a longstanding "immigrant protection program" could be struck down by a federal court in texas. a judge is expected to hand down a decision this month about the legality of daca, or the deffered action for childhood arrivals--that protects undocumented immigrants who came to the u.s. as children from deportation. there are more than a half million daca recipients and many are in limbo as they await the judge's ruling. we hear from some of them now. >> hi, my name is jonathan

rodas. i am a daca recipient. i am originally from el salvador. >> my name is katia rubio leal i was born in hidalgo, mexico, raised in arkansas, but now reside in kansas city. i attend rocherst university. i'm a rising senior. >> i go by onion ha, i have been on dhaka since 2016. >> my name is aurora. i'm 24 years old. i came here when i was 10 months old. i applied for daca. in the meantime, i'm undocumented. >> with my daca i felt for this ten years, 11 years now i have felt that i'm part of this country. i'm part because i'm paying taxes. i am i have a job, i'm going to school and i'm getting in-state tuition. i'm getting all the benefits as a u.s. citizen or a green card holder and everything. >> i'm able to find like really good jobs that like not many

people would be able to do because i have a work permit. >> the only con on it is that is that we are in constant fear and a constant fear that, like, for example, this judge can strike it down real quick and then we are in limbo. >> that strain that it's $500 every two years for my myself and my two brothers. there was one case when the mail lost my brother's card and we had to pay the $500 again, even though the mail carrier lost it. and again, it's just $500 is not always that easy for people. >> i was a freshman in college, and so that was the first time i applied. and the trump administration blocked applications. that was the first time i got blocked. the second time was in 2021. that was the day that everything changed for me. >> there is still so much that i

can't do. since i'm majoring in biomedical engineering, i have to do a lot of research. when i try and look for opportunities, all of them are like, you have to be a u.s. citizen, you have to be a u.s. citizen, a resident. so i just go down the line knocking out things that i can't do because of my status. >> i can only think of two year increments. you can't live with peace. you have to think of contingency plans and you've got to work with the flow and it's unfair because your life is in the whims of people you don't know what you are going through. >> another struggle is that everyone's moving forward. you know, i've seen my family friends graduate already, start families, buy a house. you know, i'm still in the same i'm still in the same situation of my life that i haven't been moving forward. >> i've been having it for about six years.

i've done good jobs. i don't even have a speeding ticket. what is prohibiting me from becoming a citizen? i'm a law-abiding person. you have to hear they want to be here in this country. they are still not granted it at all. >> i struggle between because people tell me i'm not american and a need to get out of here because i'm in the wrong choice. i didn't make the decision anyway. there is a daily struggle with who you are and you have to reaffirm that you rightfully deserve to be in this country. geoff: in 20 19, evanston,

illinois, past the first reparations law in american history. economics correspondent paul solman recently visited the chicago suburb to follow-up up on the progress of the program, part of our ongoing series "race matters." >> my father would drive me to cook county hospital. as a baby, i came back to the house. my father bought the house in 1930. >> home to a long-standing black community. some of whom like donna walker are still bitter about the past. >> i'm still waiting for 40 acres and a mule. >> evanston isn't offering the anchorage, but it is trying to

make amends. with a first of its kind reparations project that is spreading. >> we had an official side event at the united nations sharing the model, sharing the growth and today there are over 100 localities that have taken a first step toward reparations for their community. >> a former city councilmember spearheaded reparations here, $10 million to be spent over 10 years funded by taxes on cannabis sales and by real estate transfers. so far, 16 recipients, $25,000 each. >> i figured the country would not approve anything like this. >> i was shocked. >> he used his 25,000 dollars to reduce his son's mortgage.

>> using the money for other things. >> i thought we would not see this money at all. some people didn't see it and i'm very happy that they did and i'm happy that the elders are able to pay taxes on their home, fix it up. >> walker's next-door neighbor is on a waiting list for funds that will come in future years. >> eventually. it is not my grandchildren or my daughters. >> what will you do with the money? >> i will fix up my home. i will do my kitchen and my two bathrooms. >> can you do that for $25,000? >> i will make it work. [laughter] >> initially it only counted toward housing related projects.

in march, the evanston city council added the option of direct cash payments because some had felt they restrict grant was demeaning. they said they should be able to do what they want. >> most of us here can't even afford to live here. >> like donna walker. >> if you give me something, you can't tell me how to spend it. you have people like, what are they going to spend it on? i'm going to buy new ports and a cadillac. [laughter] >> newport cigarettes, that is. >> any time you have grants and stuff like that, two sides have to get something out of it. i own property. >> not everyone in evanston's pro-reparations. >> i don't think it is a good idea.

help should not be predicated on race, creed, color, orientation. >> a local businessman who called us trying to take back the interview, but as a courtesy no name or face. >> we had laws against the chinese. if we go by that standard, we owe the chinese recompense, we are the japanese even more recompense and it comes to a point where we are a flawed society and what we need to do is move forward. >> the evanston mayor was not surprised to hear the reluctance. >> i do feel like if i say reparations is a dumb idea, i'm not going to make a lot of friends are given a lot of support. >> but a reparations champions simmons says taking a stand means ignoring the blowback. >> it is the get a lottery or

you monkey, you slave, and go back to africa. >> but the overall reaction in this liberal city in this liberal mayor -- >> it is something we are enormously proud of. it is still a really important step on a factual level reckoning with our past and creating concrete at the our community has been talk about for four or five generations but never delivered. >> is the pride of pervasive? >> if roughly half the population are white, what proportion of those people do you think don't think this is a good idea? >> we don't even bring it up because people are afraid to express their thoughts. i wouldn't be able to give you an honest answer. >> at nearby northwestern

university, the responses being studied. >> we have gotten about 4000 respondent's, people writing in. >> he doesn't have results yet, but although a nationwide polling -- >> i don't think we will be at the 15%, i think we will be much higher than that. 50% to approve. if we found between 30 and 50% approve, i think that would be like finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. >> where does the program go for here? >> over the course of time more revenue will calm into the cannabis and the state real estate tax. there is a long waiting list of ancestors and descendants and a long list of other people in the community who were mistreated or whose ancestors were mistreated

by the city government and it is a lot of work to do. >> just to deal with the 600 or so applicants this far. the city now so pricey many blacks cannot afford to stay, like duane logan. >> the taxes were so high. >> blacks were never able to build generational wealth, which is why she was inspired to push for reparations. >> i was looking at the race gaps in every area. i was looking at the lawson black community. residents leaving because lack of affordability, going to other places where they felt more hopeful. the black experience in this city and nation has been in a state of emergency since we were kidnapped and brought here. it is time to do something

radically different and reparations is that answer. >> about time says gigi giles. >> money talks and then they probably would be happy. it is what it is. >> and she is still living here and running the business her father started 60 years ago. for the pbs newshour, paul ,♪lman, evanston geoff: the cia and the defense department are two of the u.s. government's largest agencies, which run both secret paramilitary and military operations around the world. amna has this conversation now with the author of a new memoir, who has played key roles in both agencies. amna: since the 1980s, the united states has carried out a number of large scale covert military operations aimed at the soviet union, al qaeda and osama

bin laden. iran and north korea, just to name a few. a lot has been written about all of this, but now one man who played a key role in part of those operations has stepped out of the shadows to share his story in a new book called by all means, available memoirs of a life in intelligence, special operations and strategy. that author michael vickers joins me here now. good to see you. >> great to be with you. amna: it was in 1984 that you got your first permanent assignment that the cia. afghanistan was fighting the soviets and you came in and essentially changed the entire cia program. >> the program had just received a very large increase in funding , quadrupling the budget from congress, led by democratic congressman charlie wilson.

a movie has been made after that story about his role. i thought there were a lot of possibilities with these greatly increased resources. and then i thought, maybe we could do more than just impose costs on the soviets. our analysts believed there was no way the resistance could win, so that is what i set about to do and some months later i came up with the plan that got implemented. it became our policy objectives that shifted about four months later when president reagan signed the top-secret directive to beat the soviets and drive them out of afghanistan by all means available. amna: we now know all these years later how do u.s. support for that support led to other

consequences, to the empowerment of other islamic extremists and contributed to the birth of al qaeda, who attacked the u.s. on 9/11. you say we missed the strategic significance. we also did not anticipate how the defeat of one superpower would motivate one superpower to wage a war against the remaining superpower against the u.s. would you have changed how you run the program? >> i don't think i would have changed -- amna: you were arming some militants. >> it was more traditionalist and some more secular. some of the did make common cause with taliban after 1996

and we became their enemies and they became hours. i don't think we would have done anything differently in terms of the soviet war. amna: one of your main areas of focus was drone strikes that were ramping up at the time. there was a period of time in the part of the world where the u.s. was dropping more drone strikes than anywhere else in the pakistan and afghanistan border region. i saw the buildup of anti-american sentiment as a result of those strikes. where those strikes were that in the end? >> i think they help to prevent another 9/11 attack. after al qaeda resettled in the border region, the threat to the united states went way up. we had the transatlantic airline

plot. a 911 scale attack that might have scaled several -- killed several thousand. president bush made the decision to launch a new campaign in 2008 to really start using these weons, these drone strikes against al qaeda and its safe haven providers. president obama sustained it. within about four years of that, al qaeda has back was broken in that region. from pulling i remember at the time, the closer you were to the militants where you were being bullied them, the more the local populace supported. the further you were away, it looks like a violation of pakistani sovereignty. people in the settled areas had

much stronger feelings than those in the border region. amna: many of those strikes were carried out against people who we did not know who they were. their identities were not known after the strikes. we also know i number of civilians were killed along the way. there were mistakes, women and children killed, a u.s. citizen was killed. do we yet know the full cost in terms of civilians and people who should not have been killed? >> i think we have a pretty good idea. one of the decisions president obama made was to release the best data we had in u.s. intelligence about the number of noncombatant or civilian casualties, but that number was pretty small. it was in the 60 to 100. amna: 60 to 100 civilians

killed? >> out of about 3000 combatants. amna: investigative journalism says it could be upwards of 1700 people. >> i don't think that is right or the u.s. government believes that either. amna: the u.s. operation to kill osama bin laden, you were involved in 2011. that option, the nighttime special forces raid was the most risky of all the options on the table at the time. you were in meetings when president obama and the cia had the secretary of defense in the state. how was the option chosen? >> the options range from airstrikes, big bomber strikes to a small drone strike and then various types of raids. some were rejected like a big bomber strike that would have caused collateral damage that would have killed women and children in the house, but

neighbors as well, so that got rejected quickly. the small drone strike option did not have much reliability to it, it would only work when he was walking for exercise and a small bomb might have missed or injured him and then he would have fled. so president obama settled on the raid, one version of a special operations rate, but the one we conducted and that was the best option. it had its risky elements, but we tried to reduce the risk with helicopters and reinforcement forces to make sure the force could get in and out. with the special operations rate, if we got him and got his dna, we could convincingly tell the world. amna: the book is by all means available. thank you so much for being here. >> pleasure to be with you. thank you.

geoff: the new york city urban debate league has helped over 100 new york city schools get access to debate training for students. tonight, we hear from two middle school students who participate in the league with their brief but spectacular takes on debate and democracy. >> to have a good debate, you need to stay calm and prepare. >> respect is a huge factor in debate. because if you don't respect your opponent, you can't respect the judge. it's not even a debate at that point. ♪ >> i'm 11 years old and i go to ms 50 in brooklyn, new york. i'm currently a sixth grader and i'm a debater and a basketball player. >> i go to psm 161 in harlem, new york and i'm in seventh grade.

>> there is a new program happening in my elementary school. there we learned how to debate and now here i am. >> should the united states federal government ban tiktok? >> tiktok should be banned due to amid concerns that their partner company would give users information, data, like such as browser history and location to the chinese government and push propaganda. >> i think we shouldn't ban tiktok because it gives the young people and other people the voice that they deserve. >> new york city urban debate league is just basically a league of debate where different schools and different cultures around new york city and the boroughs, they come together for different tournaments. >> it's important to have these programs out cuz it omotes diversity in all communities >> i love debate because i get to talk. a lot of the time i've had to switch how i usually perceive things. >> when somebody asks me a question, i try my best to answer it fully and then come at them with a question that's even harder.

>> what's the better borough? manhattan or brooklyn? >> i think the best borough is manhattan. we have lots of good arts and culture and entertainment in manhattan. there's a really good food. practically almost everywhere, there's some kind of train station. so in and out you can be all the way half across the city from an hour to 30 minutes. >> i see your point. but i believe brooklyn has also a lot of culture with mostly mixed communities like dominican and black and jewish, all in one community. we have a lot of diversity. >> one of the most important things about debating is being yourself, because if you're not yourself, then who are you? you know, you have to be confident in your abilities or what you can do as a person. if you're confident in yourself and your abilities, you can do anything you want. >> debate is important for the real world because it will allow you to understand others' perspectives. sometimes looking at the other person's perspeive can change your own. >> if people could understand the other perspective then it would make it much easier to do things. >> to be honest, if you win or

you lose, it's still winning at the end of the day because you're learning something, trying your best, being excellent in your own way, and just pushing through. >> my name is francis. >> my name is erick. >> and this is my brief but spectacular take on debate and democracy. >> nice to meet you. [laughter] geoff: some compelling arguments. you can watch more brief but spectacular videos online at pbs.org/ newshour/brief. and that's the newshour for tonight. join us again tomorrow when we'll hear from women about their experiences in the year since the u.s. supreme court overturned roe v. wade and the constitutional right to abortion. i'm geoff bennett. thanks for spending part of your evening with us. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by -- the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions and

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♪♪ -"cook's country" is about more than just getting dinner on the table. we're also fascinated by the people and stories behind the dishes. we go inside kitchens in every corner of the country to learn how real people cook, and we look back throu time to see how history influences the way we eat today. we bring that inspiration back to our test kitchen so we can share it with you. this is "cook's country." ♪♪ today on "cook's country," christie makes roast pork loin with 40 cloves of garlic... i tell the story behind all that garlic... adam reviews hand mixers... and lawman makes orange upside-down cake. that's all right here on "cook's country."