♪ amna: good evening. i'm amna nawaz. geoff bennett is away. on "the newshour" tonight... the biden administration approves giving cluster bombs to ukraine to fight against russia's invasion, despite risks to civilians. ukrainian children try to settle back into life at home after being abducted by russian forces. >> everyone started to panic. then the soldiers came, put us in the military truck, and took us away. the little ones cried, they were scared. but it was too late. amna: and it's friday... david brooks and jonathan capehart weigh in on the republican primary race and president biden's upcoming trip to europe. ♪

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thank you. amna: welcome to "the newshour." the biden administration announced today that the u.s. will provide ukraine with thousands of cluster munitions -- bombs and artillery shells that release scores of smaller so-called bomblets across a wide area. ukraine had requested these controversial weapons, which the u.s. says could bolster kyiv's offensive against russian forces. more than 120 countries have signed a convention banning cluster bombs, which sometimes fail to explode on impact, posing a significant risk to civilians for years after their use. u.s. leaders debated the issue for months, before president biden made the final decision this week. the president told cnn today it was a quote difficult decision -- one his national security advisor jake sullivan outlined earlier this afternoon. mr. sullivan: we recognize that cluster munitions create a risk of civilian harm from unexploded ordnances; that is why we

deferred the decision for as long as we could. but there is also a massive risk of civilian harm if russian troops and tanks roll over ukrainian positions and take more ukrainian territory and subjugate more ukrainian civilians because ukraine does not have enough artillery. that is intolerable to us. ukraine would not be using these munitions in some foreign land. this is their country they're defending. these are their citizens they'rr ecot any weapons system they have in a way that minimizes risk to those citizens. amna: the u.s. decision has sparked concerns from a nato ally and from human rights activists who see this as short-sighted. we get two perspectives. william taylor served in the vietnam war, was u.s. ambassador to ukraine under george w. bush, and is now a vice president at the u.s. institute of peace, a government-funded institute. and marc garlasco is a former defense department analyst,

helping select bombing targets, then worked for human rights watch investigating the aftermath of u.s. military operations. he's now with the institute for international criminal investigations. gentlemen, welcome to you both. thanks for joining us. marc, i'll begin with you. what do you make of the administration's reasoning for why they are sending these particular weapons at this particular time? marc: well, first, let me say i fully support ukraine in their conflict against russia and the illegal invasion that has happened. but this is just the wrong choice right now. when reports of cluster munition use by russia first came out, were first reported, jen psaki, in the white house stated that this was a likely war crime and now we're going to be providing the same types of munitions to ukraine. i think this is really a huge mistake. the potential for civilian harm is too great and ukraine is winning the war right now, using precision guided munitions like american hi mars and british storm shadows. so we should not be sending them weapons that are indiscriminate and incapable of being

individually targeted. amna: ambassador or essentially using this entirely for the last 20 years. 120 countries say they have banned them as well. why these weapons right now? william: right now, the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. right now, they are defending themselves against the russians. the russians, as mark said, have invaded ukraine unprovoked, brutal, killing civilians. and the ukrainians have been defending themselves against this russian attack and they've been using the equipment and the weapons and the ammunition that they've had valiantly and massively to defend themselves. and right now they are running out of ammunition to do that. just at the time when they are preparing to try to push the russians out of their country. so the ukrainians, they have the incentives to protect their own civilians. that's exactly what they're trying to do by keeping the

russians out. we've seen what happens when the russians occupy ukrainian towns. we see what happens to civilians. so this is what we're fighting against and this is why we're supporting the ukrainians, just as marc said. marc, what do you make of the u.s. assurances that the ukrainians have given them written assurances about the limited use that they won't they'll try to mitigate, rather, civilian risk, and also that they're only offering munitions that have what they call a low dud rate. that's the rate at which they fail to explode upon landing, which they say will also lessen civilian risk. marc: sure. look, this discussion started with ukraine stating they were only going to use american cluster munitions dropped individually from drones. now it's evolved into something where they're going to use american artillery and rocket artillery, cluster munitions. you know, i think we have to question what the reality is here and where is it going to stop. the potential for civilian harm is just too high.

you know, you spoke about the dud raid, right. these munitions, the pentagon is now saying, well, they only have a 2% rate. but when you look at the u.s. government's actual figures, the government accountability office, for example, it has a 23% dud rate. if we look at a standard volley from rocket artillery, which would be six rockets fired from hi mars you're looking at over , 3800 cluster munitions. that's 888 duds that are on the ground that potentially could kill civilians. each shell would have 20 unexploded bomblets. we had a meeting today with the national security council, and it was kind of one of these things where you get together and they try to make the ngos feel happy and say, you know, we've got a control on this. we have diplomatic assurances. the reality is, when we asked them, how did you come to these new numbers? were there tests? how were the tests completed? did you have them done under hermetically sealed manner or was it actually a field test in a war, as i've seen and covered in the past and they were unable

to answer our questions. it just was unacceptable. amna: ambassador taylor, we know the ukrainians have been requesting other weapons systems as well. how much of a difference with -- difference would these cluster munitions actually make in ukraine's counteroffensive effort? william: in the norma's difference -- an enormous difference. that's exactly the problem. they are going to run out of artillery, ammunition if they don't get these weapons. if we had if we had another kind of the normal kind of these weapons, these ammunition, we would use that we would provide them, the ukrainians would use. that's what they've been asking for. what they're asking for is ammunition for their artillery so that they can defend themselves and they can push the russians out. the other point is that that there's going to exactly as marc says, no matter what the done -- dud rate, whether it's 3% or 5% or 2%, whether it turns out that the russian rate is like 30%.

so it's incredible. but that makes the point after this war, the ukrainians say after the victory, they are going to have to clean up a lot of unexploded ordnance from around their battlefields. and most of that are coming from the russian mines. right now, what's keeping the the counteroffensive from from going very well is keeping the ukrainians from breaking through the russian lines are mines. and after the after the victory, as the ukrainians say, they're going to have to clean up, find all these mines. and whether they'd look for those mines, they'll be looking for the duds from the cluster munitions as well. so they're going to have to clean it up. they know where they're going to be firing it. they know where the russian mines are. they know where the russian cluster munitions have been used. so it's going to be an enormous clean up before they can use that land again. amna: what would you say to that? marc: well, mr. ambassador, i really appreciate what your position is on this, but you were in the army. i was in the pentagon conducting targeting. the reality is when you blanket the area with these cluster

munitions, not only do you have the potential of civilian harm for the duds, but a complete lack of ability for the military to maneuver through them. when we look at lessons learned from the gulf war and the iraq war in 2003, many of the lessons that the army took from this was their inability to maneuver through them and the concern that that ukrainian soldiers are going to die on the cluster munitions that they launched themselves. and not only that, then you're also going to add to the problem. yes, there's a huge uxo , unexploded ordinance, problem in ukraine. it is a heavily contaminated country, but we do not need to contribute to that with cluster munitions. amna: ambassador, i gave marc the first word. i'll give you the last one here by asking you if you're concerned at all that this decision, which is a reversal of previous international consensus, does it represent a slippery slope? william: my concern is that the ukrainians be able to defeat the russians. my concern is that the ukrainians have the ability, the arms, the ammunition, the weapons that they need in order to defeat the russians who have invaded their country. i totally agree.ecision. i know this is not easy.

this is why the administration took long as long as it did. this is why other nations are having this exact kind of conversation. but the issue here and the issue here is whether or not the ukrainians are going to be able to defeat the russians as they have invaded their country. amna: that is ambassador bill taylor and marc garlasco joining us tonight. gentlemen, thank you so much for your time and your insights. we appreciate it. marc: thank you. ♪ amna: in the day's other headlines -- the latest u.s. jobs report showed the economy might be cooling some, but not too much. overall, employers added a net of 209,000 jobs for the month of june. that gain was the smallest in two and a half years, but still indicated a healthy labor market. the unemployment rate fell slightly to 3.6%, near the lowest point in 50 years. a federal court in texas sentenced a white gunman today

to 90 consecutive life terms for killing 23 people. patrick crusius targeted latino shoppers at a wal-mart in el paso in 2019. he pleaded guilty to federal hate crimes but still faces a possible death sentence on state charges. today's sentencing followed two days of impassioned statements by the victims' relatives. police in baltimore have arrested a teenager in a mass shooting that killed two people and wounded 28. gunfire broke out early sunday at a fourth of july block party in the city. police say they believe multiple shooters opened fire. the 17-year-old suspect is charged as an adult with weapons violations and reckless endangerment. treasury secretary janet yellen called for renewed communication and cooperation with china today. her visit to beijing is one of several by top u.s. officials to repair strained relations. yellen met with china's second-in-command, premier li qiang. she urged healthy competition, but also complained of barriers

to doing business in china. sec. yellen: i've been particularly troubled by punitive actions that have been taken against u.s. firms in recent months. the united states does not seek a wholesale separation of our economies. we seek to diversify and not to decouple. amna: disputes over technology, security and human rights have put the world's two largest economies at odds. no breakthroughs are expected during the yellen visit. in the middle east, israeli forces launched a new raid in the occupied west bank, killing two palestinian gunmen in nablus. the israelis said the pair attacked police earlier this week. the gun battle left homes with shattered windows and doorways pocked by bullet holes. shell casings littered the ground at the site. later, palestinian officials said israeli forces killed a

third man, during a demonstration. back in this country, president biden announced new efforts to cut health care costs. the initiatives include a crackdown on so-called junk insurance policies. the white house says they deny basic coverage for people moving to new jobs. the plans build on provisions in last year's inflation reduction act. on wall street -- stocks drifted lower as investors digested the june jobs report. the dow jones industrial average lost 187 points to close below 33,735. the nasdaq fell 18 points. the s&p 500 slipped 12. c

-- fearing it might escalate the conflict. >> recoupment cracks and fi ssures between different nato allies to start bubbling to the surface not only for ukraine, but for the strength of the alliance, it will be very important for each ally to come together and present a united front. >> would you make it easier for ukraine to join nato? pres. biden: no. reporter: for now, the president remains at odds with other nato members about fast tracking ukraine's membership. one small step under consideration is removing the membership action and requirement for ukraine. >> an important part of the membership action plan is the matter of mature democratic institutions. reporter: a 35 year career in the u.s. army and is a

former u.s. ambassador to nato. >> ukraine, even before the war, is still an emerging democracy with a mature democratic institutions. if the membership action plan is set aside, there will still be attention paid to these democratic values. >> there is broad consensus was now that there is no pathway for ukraine to join the alliance before the war with russia ends. the immediate priority is trying to figure out how to continue supporting ukraine with weapons and economic aid so that it can actually be victorious. reporter: the u.s. is the largest contributor of aid, committing billions in weapons and other equipment. but it has been reluctant to send long-range precision missiles, and cluster munitions, until today. the white house announced it now plans to provide cluster munitions, which are outlined for use in most countries. they release bomblets that don't

explode on impact, and can later kill civilians. >> the positive impact on the battlefield, outweighs continued concern for unexploded ordinance. so it is overwhelming in our advantage. reporter: another big decision expected at next week's summit, the first revamp of nato's military plan since the cold war. under its new plans, nato aims to have 300,000 troops ready to deploy to its eastern flank within 30 days to defend against the russian threat. and it has charted a specific military strategy for each region in the alliance. >> there will be a specific plan for the northern part of the alliance, the arctic from the northern countries and the north atlantic itself. there will be one for the central region of the alliance, and one for the south, across the mediterranean. across those specific areas,

nato will, for the first time in 30 years, assigned forces. they will be getting much more specific in their response to the obvious russian challenges. reporter: but the new plan is expensive, and its ability to implement it depends on member'' defense spending. in 2014, leaders committed to percent of their gdp on military budgets by 2024, but so far, ali seven of the 31 member countries meet that threshold. the latest is finland, and it holds the longest border with russia. it became a nato member in april after turkish president richard type erdogan lifted objections last year for finland and sweden to join the alliance. >> i want to thank you for what you did putting together the situation and with regard to finland and sweden. reporter: but the process for sweden has been slower. turkiye will not allow student to join until it stereotypes

kurdish separatists it calls terrorists. but president zelenskyy today warned, indecision weakens the alliance. >> i believe that while the issue of sweden's admission to nato has not yet been resolved, and the issue of ukraine's invitation has not been resolved , there is little unity in this. the it is a threat to the strength of the alliance and that is why we expect at least some steps towards a positive outcome. this is important for the security of the whole world. >> it is looking unlikely that this impasse will be worked out before the nato summit. but this will be up space which everyone will be watching closely. if it doesn't happen there, it happens soon thereafter. reporter: for the past 16 months the world watched as the missiles battered ukraine and the conflict reenergized the alliance. an alliance that biden has spent the majority of his presidency working to unify.

♪ >> last night we brought you the story of ukrainian mothers and grandmothers going to crimea to rescue their children. some of the nearly 20,000 who have been forcibly deported to russia for russian-controlled parts of ukraine. tonight, with the support of the pulitzer center, filmmakers amanda bailly and anton shtuka, and special correspondent jane ferguson, show us how reunion can be both joyous, and difficult. >> for these women, the return to ukrainian soil is everything. the first time they can really believe it, that they got their children back. nathalya: i'm exhausted but happy that i'm finally in my homeland, in ukraine. i'm happy that i'm here with my child. that's the most important thing. everything else is little things in life.

we just need to get home, to see our cows and pigs. reporter: they have crossed over from belarus after a journey of some 3000 miles to get their children back from russian-controlled areas of ukraine. >> they had a lot of questions. for example, whom do you visit there? my sent. why do you want to go visit him? it's my son! reporter: they are just some of what ukraine says are aanaslisn collaborators working at the children's schools, moved their children to russian occupied areas, saying it was for their safe-keeping, and never returning them. another boy is rushed into a quiet car. he has autism and is nonverbal. after six months away from his family, he is struggling with

physical touch and night terrors, his mother tells us. almost all men are not permitted to leave the country because of the war effort. it fell on these women many who , had rarely left their home towns before to go on a dangerous journey to get them back. that journey was long, frost, and secrets. but as their best fold into key, they were met by a throng of international press while they were traveling into russian-controlled territory, the international criminal court announced that russia's deportation of your children was a war crime, and issued an arrest warrant for president vladimir putin and children's rights commissioner maria lvova-belova. she herself took custody of a ukrainian teenager from mariupol last year.

journalists amanda bailly and anton shtuka chronicled the womens' journey, and returned tn after the initial media frenzy died down. svetlana, now back in kherson after retrieving her granddaughter, remembers a harrowing journey, where she had to be careful what she told russian border officials about her visit's true meaning. >> they started questioning me about where i was going and why. they took phone numbers and said if we call these phone numbers, if this information is not true, you are going to suffer very, very badly. i said, i am not lying to you, i am telling the truth. so they let me go. i was frightened, almost crying. reporter: svetlana's granddaughter nastya is finally home in kherson, in southern ukraine, liberated from russian control last fall. nastya was taken to a summer camp grounds inside russian-controlled territory.

the camps, seen here in promotional videos, were used before the war as holiday spots for children. after the full-scale invasion in 2022, russian authorities started transferring ukrainian children from territories they had seized, telling parents they were being taken to protect them from the fighting. some like nastya's grandmother initially gave permission for them to go for two weeks, but they were never returned. those working there were, according to the children interviewed here, pro-russian ukrainians and encouraged russian propaganda amongst them. she says her daughter was not physically harmed, but her experiences at the russian camp frightened her. nastya's wider family now find her changed, distant. >> she doesn't trust people. even the other kids noticed. why don't you talk to us, they asked? you give all your attention to your animals, to your dog.

she spends a lot of time with dogs. she just wants to be alone, day after day. reporter: nastya remembered only being texted by a school teacher who was collaborating with the russians, persuading the children to move to crimea. >> i received a telegram a message on my phone from a cool chat let this opportunity and career. my homeroom teacher sent the text message. reporter: once they had crossed over, the teacher left them there and fled to russia, she said. it would be six months before her grandmother rescued her from the camp. nastya may be home, -- explosions women reporter: but that home is still in ukraine, along the front, and dangerous shelling gets close and the interview must be moved inside. her grandmother's journey to bring nastya home came just in time. the camp management were planning to move the children out before the busy summer season of paying guests. the children were under increasing danger of being moved

into russia, made russian citizens, and put up for adoption. >> the camp management told us we would be taken under custody on april 7 if we were not taken away by our families. they would give us citizenship and a passport, just like this, or send us to different camps. they could take us to moscow, or st. petersburg. reporter: like svetlana, natalia was interrogated by russian border officials as she went to retrieve her fifteen year old son artem. lawyers for the local charity save ukraine had prepped her. >> i had to tell the truth, that i was going to visit my child. i gave the address of the school in perevalsk, and the phone number. they asked how artem got there. i told him they were evacuated because there was shelling. i did the best that i could. reporter: artem remembers the day collaborators at his school handed him over to russians . >> we didn't want to go but we

found out we were being evacuated. everyone started to panic. then the soldiers came, put us in the military truck and took us away. the little ones cried. they were scared that it was too late. reporter: it was a month before a teacher gave him a phone to call his mother, he said. at the boarding school he was taken to in the occupied region of luhansk, he described being indoctrinated with russian propaganda. >> they explained to us that russia is good and ukraine is bad. they said that russia restores everything, but ukraine only destroys everything. reporter: some of the teenagers had much darker experiences. nina, who is 16 years old, was forced to do military training. pictured here in the black ski mask. she said she was trained to use a gun.

>> we had competitions mostly on sunday and saturday. there were three teams and your teams competed to dismantle machine guns, look for mines and lob grenades. reporter: for nina's mother, alina, her reunion, after she too traveled into russian controlled areas to get her back, was all the more emotional. [crying] >> little by little, she told me everything. even showed photos of where they were with guns swarming up ropes, and shooting. they had a physical exam, blood tests, and stuff. i have all the documents. i think they were being prepared for something, since she had the complete health screening, an ultrasound, and all of her organs were screened. reporter: c >> nina struggled more than most when she got home. her mother moved away from their front line home with her. got her a comfort dog and continues to try to help her heal. in the front line city of kherson, teenager masha

remembers the day she was deported to russian controlled crimea. >> there were a lot of buses. maybe 15 buses. and it was three days, maybe even four. the buses were taken to different places. i went to the same camp as my friends. to mechta. >> for the kids, being at camp was, at first a great novelty, said masha, a fun time away from home. they were fed, entertained and occasionally had school classes. masha: after a month, we were thinking, why are we still here? some kids wanted to go home. we started asking questions like why aren't we going home? someone said it's not safe to go there yet. it wasn't clear. they said 'you don't understand, it's not safe there, and your parents can come to pick you up anytime.' then, we were told that kherson would become part of russia again, and then they would take us home. reporter: those like masha's mother had initially agreed to have their children go to holiday camps in russian controlled crimea. living under russian occupation, they were told the children would be sheltered from the fighting and would be returned in 2 weeks.

in the end the children did not return. janna: of course if i had known, i would never have let her go at all. she is just a young teenager, and i am responsible for her. of course, i blame myself. not the child, not my husband, or anyone else. father: we made the decision together. janna: yes, but i sent her there. father: i knew that kherson would be left like this. that the probability of street fighting was very high. and we could see, it was clear that they were preparing for this, putting fortifications and sandbags everywhere. street fighting is, of course, scary. everyone saw what mariupol was like, how people died there. and of course, this is why we made the decision. if we only knew. janna: well, when it reached nearly six months, i had already torn my hair out. i hadn't slept, i had sleepless nights, was on pills. reporter: masha said she was moved to another camp.

there, volunteers came to retrieve some of the younger kids, but masha and others were told to stay inside. >> after a month, we were thinking why are we still here? we started asking questions about wyoming going home -- why aren't we going home? they said it's not safe and your parents can pick you up anytime. they said that kherson would be part of russia again and they would take us home. reporter: after some time, the staff hinted at adoption. masha: they said that, well, there is a law in russia that children can't live without parents for six months. so if you are not picked up before this date, they will simply take custody of you. reporter: while legal wranglings play out far away from the front

lines of the war, these families, now finally reunited, return to surviving the war that rages around them. svetlana may have nastya back, but the constant shelling outside reminds her that life with her remains dangerous. sveltana: every day it's like this, all day, from morning until late, or even all night. we're used to it. i won't leave and don't want to. it is in god's hands. if we should die, then we'll die in our homes. and if fate continues to let us live, survive and raise children, we will continue to live like this. reporter: a long-awaited spring counteroffensive by ukrainian forces have begun. areas home to many of these families could become even more deadly. nathalia: our biggest wish is to wake up one day and find out that we won. we want it to be quiet here again. we want families to not be separated.

reporter: with each russian shell that lands by their homes, these ukrainian families, now finally reunited, are reminded that their lives together, while precious, remain fragile in the face of this war. for "the pbs newshour," i'm jane ferguson. ♪ amna: to discuss this week's news both here and abroad, we turn to the analysis of brooks and capehart. that's new york times columnist david brooks and jonathan capehart, associate editor for the washington post. good to see you both. let's talk about these cluster bombs. jonathan, we heard earlier some debate about why people think it

is a good idea but the huge risk it poses to civilian populations. is this the administration sacrificing the moral high ground for a battlefield advantage? jonathan: this is war. president zelenskyy is forced to fight a russian president who has been ruthless, bombing civilian targets for almost minute one, with ukraine pleading for tanks, planes, please send us the most advanced military equipment you can give us because we need it. sending cluster munitions is i think -- it probably crosses a line for a lot of, but when you are the western alliance and the mantra is this is authoritarianism versus democracy and democracy must win, democracy must have all the tools possible to make it possible. amna: david, the u.s. itself

stopped using these in 2003. what does it say to you about how they see the war? david: one, there were no other munitions to send. you have horrible choices. i think it says a few other things. why do they have no other munitions to send? what was wrong with air supply chains that we don't have normal artillery shells? also, chose the ukraine advance is not going so great. in part because of the lack of munitions and in part because the areas are mined up. and the final thing they should ask and i am sure they are asking this, people make terrible decisions thinking something devastating will devastate the enemy. some of them have no value at all. they've been fighting a war largely an artillery war. why should we think -- i am not a military expert -- why should we think this will yield any

advance for either side? i hope they ask these fundamental questions. amna: jonathan we've seen some opposition even from in the same party. one representative put out a statement, saying we are strong because we live up to our values and defies that. could this signal a wider rift? jonathan: with all due respect to the congresswoman, she is one voice. there might be others in congress who are behind her and we will see if more democrats start coming out and opposing the administration, with regard to munitions or to funding. then my question everyone is

should the u.s. send the fighter jets president zelenskyy wants? and should we accept his assurances he won't use them inside russian territory? these are the tough questions david is talking about. amna: what about next week's nato summit? we know germany has already publicly opposed sending these munitions. david: i expect they will publicly oppose it and then understand privately. there may be some heartfelt opposition. if president zelenskyy things he needs them and there's no other way to mount the campaign, the u.s. is in the unfortunate position of being the super p ower having to make the tough calls. i hope nato will be realigned, getting sweden and, in part because of the ukraine -- the way ukraine is being treated.

this is the gradual reshaping of post-ukraine were europe and i think the president is being pretty aggressive and probably the right way. amna: on the 2024 campaign trail, we saw some numbers from campaigns, fundraising numbers, not verified, they are from the campaigns. the desantis campaign announced it raised $20 million he announced his campaign six weeks ago. the super pac backing him helped raise $130 million. is this going to help him close the gap between himself and president trump? jonathan: that's what he hopes and you can do a lot with $130 million. donald trump raised $35 million, but what he made in q1, and these huge numbers tell me and should tell democrats, that half the country wants their guy to n, candiwidate -- wants their candidate to win.

it's astounding that twice impeach and twice indicted, president trump raising money hand over fist. with governor desantis, money can only buy so much. if he doesn't change the way he campaigns and is able to at least break through and have people think he is warm or human or really wants to do this, i don't seem going anywhere. amna: david, i want to ask you about something we heard from vice president mike pence, having to answer from things in the past. he was confronted recently by one resident in iowa who asked him why he didn't refuse to certify the 2020 election results on january 6, 2021. >> do you ever second guess yourself? that was a constitutional right that you had to send those votes back to the states? it's not like you were going to personally elect him. mr. pence: i'm sorry, ma'am.

but that's actually what the constitution says. no vice president in american history ever asserted the authority that you have been convinced that i had. but i want to tell you with all due respect, i sbe trump was wrong about my authority that day and he's still wrong. amna: david, he needs the votes of the people who don't believe the last election was legitimate. what do you make of his acts are -- his answer? david: it was a true answer. the problem they face is donald trump is not just a candidate, he is a social club. my colleague made this point this week, that when you are in the trump rally or in the caravan or one of the boat crusades, they are having fun. they are joyous, around people who agree with them, they have a beer, and it is a sense of belonging. i think we have not covered that element should for a lot of --

that element. for a lot of people is not just an attachment to a candidate, it is a movement that provides a sense of belonging. despite all that happens, donald trump has 78% approval among republican voters. that is very high. it's hard to shake people off of that. all of the candidates -- mike pence, ron desantis -- who are a little trumpy, or a little anti-trumpy, it won't shake people from the social club. amna: i have to ask you about the decision that bans the biden administration from communicating with social media companies about misinformation or disinformation online. we know the administration is seeking an emergency order to halt that band. this is the same week we saw a man armed at the teeth show up at the obama residence because he saw the address posted online. where are we in this conversation between the online world and real world violence? jonathan: [laughs]

this decision boggles the mind. you have an administration in the middle of a pandemic, the biden administration comes in in the middle of a pandemic with disinformation and misinformation, literally trying to save people's lives, and see that all of that disinformation and misinformation is having on social media. a responsible, functioning government would go to those companies and say hey, can we have a conversation about this? we understand your first amendment rights but we are trying to save lives. i don't understand how the arguments from the fever swamps have made their way into judicial decisions and are now preventing the administration from combating things that are doing real harm to the american people. i'm glad you made the link to

the guy who was arrested outside of the obamas's home, with guns and machete. who is to say that if he hadn't been caught that he would not have acted on that information? that's the question. we are in a time where we should not have to ask these questions. i think we know what the answer would be. amna: david? david: obviously they need to pull stuff down, they pulled over a billion things down. i don't trust tech to be in charge of this and i don't trust government and big tech in private to be in charge of this. there is a bill in the senate that would make the process more transparent. so outside sources can see if they are being honest and fair and what they pulled down and that seems the best way forward. it is a problem for democracy to have in washington, elites, and

elites in silicon valley, making these decisions. amna: good to see you both, please have a great weekend. ♪ what is poetry? and what does it offer us? the recent winner of the pulitzer prize, carl phillips -- known for the beauty of his language and his depth of exploration -- has some answers. jeffrey brown went to st. louis to talk to phillips for our arts and culture series , canvas. >> who am i, the hero says to himself, looking past his reflection on the lake's surface down to where the darker greens give way at last to darkness. reporter: from the poem “this far in," in carl phillips' collection “then the war, winner of this year's pulitzer prize for poetry.

>> speak into me the wind said, , when i woke this morning. let's see what happens. i used to worry that, you know, some poets writes about a whole bunch of topics, and i feel as if i only have a handful. but that handful includes stuff like love, sex, death, and i don't know how you really fully plumb those subjects. reporter: pretty big things. >> yeah. when in doubt, i will comfort myself by thinking of emily dickinson, who really writes mainly about two or things things, but there's a lot to be said about the things she writes about -- death is there a god, if so, what's our relationship to this person or thing? i think she did an okay job. reporter: now 63, phillips is a longtime professor at washington university in st. louis, where he lives with his partner reston allen and their dog emily. he's author of 16 books of poetry and essays, including the 2022 collection, “my trade is mystery: seven meditations from

a life in writing." >> i do think of poetry as somehow engaging with mystery. i think it's a mystery to be a human being and how to figure out what to make of being in a body for whatever number of years that we get. and poetry, to me, is an expression of that mystery. reporter: it began, he says, as a way of coming to terms with his own body and desires, being a gay man, along with his bi-racial identity as the child of a black american who served in the air force and white english homemaker. did you grow up in a way in which being gay would be unthinkable? >> oh sure. first of all, i grew up in a military family. my father was in the air force, grew up on air force bases. it wasn't even about anyone saying, this is what you're not supposed to be. it wasn't even talked about. so it wasn't an option. and i think between that and being biracial, which was another way of not feeling as if

you fit in either side in some ways. reporter: you're not this, you're not that. you felt that? >> right. i would say more that i didn't feel it until other kids in school would say, you aren't this or you aren't that. and i would think, i thought i was just myself. reporter: one way into poetry was through ancient literature. he studied latin and taught it in high school for several years. adding greek, he's translated a sophocles tragedy. >> for me, poetry is necessary, and not just the writing of it, the writing of my own poems, but the poems i encounter by other people, living and, you know, very anciently dead. there's something restorative in reading something like the iliad and knowing that war has always happened, or understanding that in war what loyalty means, what love means, and that's something very long ago but still has contemporary resonance. reporter: it's not all tragedy

for phillips, who loves to cook and sing. he produced a series of pandemic-era videos to share with a world in need of uplift. but writing, longhand, is how he reaches people best, pulling together scraps of ideas and phrases into his poems. you have called poetry patterned language. what does that mean? >> a poem is made of patterns and the meaningful interruption of those patterns. there is sound, there's diction -- a certain word might keep recurring, a certain image could come throughout the poem at different moments. and the artistry of writing a poem is getting those patterns to work in such a way that you condition the reader's expectations and you meaningfully disrupt those expectations at different points. there's actual motion. and that's a poem that lifts off the page. reporter: at a time when much

poetry takes on big issues directly, phillips has a more personal and intimate voice. but, he says, the larger world, politics included, is very much there. >> people used to say, where is your 9/11 poem? and my feeling is that every poem after 9/11 is a 9/11 poem. so much is political, anyway. apparently it's political for me to even exist in the world as a queer man of color. but i don't see how any poem isn't political in some way because it's an individual stance, and it's also, it's a resistance to silence. you've decided to speak. reporter: a resistance to silence. >> yeah. one could have chosen not to say anything. and even saying, even writing a poem about, say, i don't know a , leaf falling from a tree, and someone could say, how can you do that when all these things are happening in the world? but even as they're happening, leaves are also falling from trees. and i think of poetry as a kind

of collective record of what it has been like to be alive in a particular moment of time. you: the dark that nothing, not even the light, displaces. you, who have been the single leaf that won't stop tossing, among the others. for you. reporter: for the pbs newshour, i'm jeffrey brown in st. louis. amna: be sure to tune into washington week later tonight on pbs. my colleague, laura barron-lopez, is here with a preview. laura: on washington week tonight, i'll be speaking with some of the country's top journalists about president biden's controversial decision to supply ukraine with cluster munitions ahead of a critical nato meeting. plus, the trump-desantis feud heats up again. 'llwe that's tonight on washington week. amna: thank you, laura.

watch pbs news weekend tomorrow for a look at how black and brown communities are bearing the brunt of automated speed cameras in cities like chicago. >> the program was rolled out under the auspices that it was all about public safety. >> city council member anthony beale represents the city's largely black 9th ward. anthony: we have learned that it's not about public safety, that the entire system is about generating revenue. paul: you're an alderman. the city does need money, right? anthony: the city does need money. but if we're going to generate revenue, it needs to be off the backs of the entire city of chicago and not targeted towards the black and brown communities where the people are hurting the most. i've had residents go to the grocery store. they got a ticket going to the grocery store and they got a ticket going home from the grocery store. amna: that's tomorrow on pbs news weekend. that's the newshour for tonight. i'm amna nawaz. on behalf of the entire newshour team, thank you for joining us. have a great weekend. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by -- ♪

>> moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us. ♪ >> and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions, and friends of the newshour, including kathy and paul anderson and camilla and george smith. the walton family foundation, water during climate change so people and nature can thrive together. the william and flora hewlett foundation. for more than 50 years, advancing ideas and supporting institutions to promote a better world.

at hewlett.org. and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions -- ♪ and friends of the newshour. ♪ this pgram was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy.]

[exciting music] - hello everyone and welcome to amanpour & company. here's what's coming up. iran claims a deal is on the table to free jailed american citizens, but the us calls it a cruel lie. after our extraordinary interview inside evin prison with siamak namazi, i now speak to tara tahbaz, whose father, morad, is also there. and to former ambassador bill richardson, who lobbies for americans imprisoned abroad. also ahead. - there's been no easy answers. it's been tough to get the balance right. - [christiane] the bbc scrambles to save face in a row over impartiality, but was sports commentator gary lineker wrong about the issue of britain's refugee policy? my conversation with migration expert oxford university professor alexander betts. - and. - these medications have gotten so much attention that they're changing what we think about this disease. - [christiane] hari sreenivasan talks to dr. fatima stanford