♪ >> good evening. on "the newshour" tonight, the biden administration approves giving cluster bombs to ukraine to fight against russia's invasion, despite risks to civilians. ukrainian children try to settle back into life at home after being abducted by russian forces. >> everyone started to panic. then the soldiers came, put us in a military truck and took us away. the little ones cried. they were scared. but it was too late. >> and it is friay, so jonathan brooks -- so david brooks and jonathan capehart way in on the republican primary and president biden's ip to europe.

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broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> welcome to "the newshour." the biden administration announced today that the u.s. will provide ukraine with thousands of cluster munitions, bombs and artillery shells that release scores of smaller so-called bomblets across an area. ukraine had requested the weaons which the u.s. could -- which the u.s. says could bolster kyiv's offensive. more than 120 countries have signed a convention banning cluster bombs, which sometimes failed to expose on impact, posing a significant risk to civilians for years after their use. u.s. officials debated the issue for months before president made the final decision this week. national security advisor jake sullivan outline the decision this afternoon. >> we recognize cluster

munitions create a risk for civilians. this is why we deferred the decision for as long as we could, but there is also a massive risk of civilian harm russian troops and tanks roll over ukrainian positions and take more ukrainian territory and subjugate more ukrainian civilians. that is intolerable to us. ukraine will not be using these munitions in some foreign land. this is their country. these are their citizens. they are motivated to use any weapons system in a way that minimizes risks to those citizens. >> the u.s. decision has sparked concerns from a nato ally and from human rights activists who see this as shortsighted. we get two perspectives now. william taylor served in the vietnam war and was u.s. ambassador to ukraine under george bush and is now vice president at the u.s. institute of kyiv, a government-funded

institute. and a former defense department analyst who worked for human rights watch investigating the aftermath of u.s. military operations and is now the institute for international criminal investigations. gentlemen, welcome to you both. thanks for joining us. what do you make of the ministration's reasoning for why they are sending these particular weapons at this particular time? >> first, let me say i fully support ukraine in their conflict against russia, but this is just the wrong choice right now. when reports of cluster munition used by russia first came out or were first reported, jen psaki in the white house stated this was a likely war crime, and now we are going to be providing the same type of munitions to ukraine? i think it is a huge mistake. the potential for civilian harm is too great, and ukraine is winning the war right now, so we should not be sending them

weapons that are indiscriminate and incapable of being individually targeted. >> the u.s. themselves have stopped essentially using this entirely for the last 25 years. 120 countries have banned them as well. why use them right now? >> right now, the ukrainians are running out of ammunition. right now, they are defending themselves against the russians. russians, as mark said, have invaded ukraine, unprovoked, brutal, killing civilians, and the ukrainians have been defending themselves against this russian attack, and they have been using the equipment and weapons they have valiantly and massively to defend themselves, and right now, they are running out of ammunition to do that. just at the time when they are preparing to try to push the russians out of their country, so the ukrainians have the incentives to protect their own

civilians. that is exactly what they are trying to do. we have seen what happens when the russians occupied ukrainian towns. we see what happens to the civilians, so this is what we are fighting against, and this is why we are supporting the ukrainians, just as mark should. >> what do you make of the fact that ukrainians have given written insurances that they will mitigate risk and will only use munitions which have a low writer, which is the rate at which they fail? >> this started with ukraine saying they would only use american cluster munitions dropped individually from drones. now it is where they are going to use artillery cluster munitions. i think we have to question what the reality is here and where it is going to stop. the potential for civilian harm is just too high. you spoke about two rate.

-- the dead -- you spoke about the dud rate. when you look at the u.s. government actual figures, the government accountability office for example, it has a 23% dud rate. if we look at a standard volley from market artillery, you are looking at over 3800 ball cluster munitions. that's 888 duds on the ground that could potentially kill civilians. if we look at scans fired from artillery shells, each shell has 20 unexploded bomblets. we had a meeting today with national security council, and it was one of these things where you get together and they try to make the ngo's feel happy and say they got control of this. they have diplomatic assurances. the reality is we ask them, how did you come to these new numbers? where there tests? how were the tests completed? did you have them done in

hermetically sealed controlled conditions or were they actually done in the real world? and they did not have answers. >> how much of a difference with these cluster munitions actually make in ukraine's counteroffensive effort? >> an enormous difference. they are going to run out of artillery if they don't get these munitions. if we had another kind, the normal kind of these weapons, the ammunition, we would use that. we would provide that. ukrainians would use that. that is what they have been asking for. they have been asking for ammunition for their artillery so they can defend themselves and push the russians out. the other point is no matter what the dud rate, if it's 3% or 5% or 2% or whatever, it turns out the russian rate is 30% --

ukrainians say after the victory, they will have to complete -- they will have to clean up a lot of unexploded ordnance from around their battlefields. most of that are coming from russian mines. right now, what's keeping the counteroffensive from going very well, that's keeping ukraine from breaking through russian lines are mines. after the victory, as ukrainian say, they will have to clean up all these minds -- all these mines. they know where they will be firing. they know where the russian mines are. so it is going to be enormous cleanup before they can use that land again. >> what would you say to that? >>'s are ambassador, i really appreciate what your position is on this, but you were in the army. i was in the pentagon conducting

targeting. the reality is you have a complete lack of ability for the military to maneuver through them. when you look at lessons learned from the gulf war in iraq, many of the lessons the army took from this was their inability to maneuver through them, and the concern that ukrainian soldiers are going to die on the cluster munitions that they launch themselves, and not only that, you are also going to add to the problem? yes, there is a huge unexploded ordnance problem in ukraine. it is a heavily contaminated country, but we do not need to contribute to that with cluster munitions. >> ambassador, i gave mark the first word. i will give you the last by asking if you are concerned that this decision, which is a reversal of previous decisions, presents a slippery slope. >> my concern is that the ukrainians have the ability to defeat the russians, and my concern is that they have the weapons they need in order to defeat the russians who invaded their country.

this is a hard decision. i totally agree. this is not easy. this is why the decision took as long as it did. this is why other nations are having this exact conversation, but the issue is if ukrainians will be able to defeat the russians. >> gentlemen, thank you so much for your time and insights. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> i'm stephanie sy with "newshour west." the latest u.s. jobs report show the economy might be cooling a bit. overall, employers added a net of 209,000 jobs for the month of june. that gain was the smallest in two and a half years but still indicated a healthy labor market. the unemployment rate fell slightly to 3.6% near the lowest point in 50 years. a federal court in texas

sentenced a gunman today to 90 consecutive life terms for killing 23 people. he targeted latino shoppers at a walmart in el paso in 2019. he pleaded guilty to federal hate crimes but still faces a possible death sentence on state charges. today's sentencing followed two days of impassioned statements by the victims' relatives. police in baltimore have arrested a teenager in a mass shooting that killed two people and wounded 28. gun fire broke out early sunday at a fourth of july block already in the city. police say they believe multiple shooters opened fire. the 17-year-old suspect is charged as an adult with weapons violations and reckless endangerment. treasury secretary janet yellen called for renewed communication and cooperation with china today. her visit to beijing is one of several by top u.s. officials to repair strained relations. yellen met with china's second

in command. he spoke of healthy competition but also complained of barriers imposed by china. >> i have made clear that the united stas does not seek a wholesale separation of our economies. we seek to diversify, the not to decouple. >> no breakthroughs are expected during the visit. in the middle east, israeli forces launched a new rate in the occupied west bank, killing two palestinian gunmen. israelis said the pair attacked police earlier this week. the gunbattle left homes with shattered windows and doorways popped by bullet holes. shell casings littered the ground at the site. later, palestinian officials said israeli forces killed a third man during a demonstration. the u.s. has destroyed the last

of its declared chemical weapons stockpile. the white house announced the milestone this evening. in all, more than 30,000 tons of munitions dating back to world war i were destroyed. many contained deadly nerve agents. the u.s. meets the september 30 deadline to eliminate it stockpile. and the future of ai was a hot topic today at the world's first news conference with humanoid robots. the podium featured nine ai-powered robots. one said they could lead the world better than humans. another dismissed the idea of a robot rebellion and said it is "very happy with my current position." >> i think the world will be better when people realize robots like me can be used to improve lives and make the world a better place. i think it is only a matter of time before we see thousands of robots like me and they are making a difference. >> the news conference was part

of a united nations summit on how technology can contribute to sustainable development. still to come on "the newshour," leaders prepare to meet over the future of ukraine. children kidnapped by russia return home. and a pulitzer prize winning poet discusses his new collection and rising conflict in the united states. >> this is "the pbs newshour" from weta studios in washington and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. >> nato leaders will meet next week in lithuania can -- convening nearly a year and a half into pressure's invasion of ukraine, but ukraine is not a member of the alliance. at issue during the upcoming meeting, revamping collective defense plans and alliance expansion. our white house correspondent will be traveling to the summit and sets the table.

[gunfire] >> in the east and south, ukraine's counteroffensive to reclaim land is making slow progress. ukrainian soldiers now fire on russian fighters for positions previously held by russia. bases their trenches but also their dead. >> you see all these flies here and some fresh ground. some russian soldier already rests in here. it might smell that as we go further. >> ukraine's advance comes ahead of a he summit as the nearly 35-year-old alliance tries to prevent a united front against the very foe it was designed to defeat, russia. >> our summit will send a clear message -- nato stands united. >> this is probably one of the most controversial nato summits that we have seen in quite some

time. >> rachel rizzo is a senior fellow at the atlantic council and an expert on european security and transplanting relations. >> it is time for the alliance to answer questions not only in terms of their own territorial defense but questions about nato expansion, but more specifically, what is ukraine's future relationship with nato going to look like. >> a critical issue on nato's agenda, ukraine's access to the alliance. in 2008, nato leaders agreed ukraine could eventually join, but there is no clear consensus yet on how and when that will happen. the baltic states formerly part of the soviet union want a clear timetable for ukraine to join nato, but the u.s. and germany have been more cautious, fearing it might escalate the conflict. >> we don't want fissures between different nato allies to

start bubbling to the surface, not only for ukraine, but for nato itself, for the strength of the alliance. it's going to be very important for each and every ally to come together and present a united front. >> do you believe ukraine should join nato? >> no. >> for now, the president remains at odds with other members over fast tracking ukrainian membership, but one small step under consideration is removing the membership action plan requirement for ukraine. >> an important part of a map, if you will, membership action plan, is this matter of mature democratic institutions. >> doug woods had a 35-year career in the u.s. army and is former ambassador to ukraine. >> ukraine is still an emerging democracy with immature democratic institutions. if the membership action plan is set aside, there will still be due attention paid to these democratic guidelines.

>> i think there is broad consensus right now that there is no pathway for ukraine to join the alliance before the war with russia ends. the immediate priority is trying to figure out how to continue supporting ukraine's weapons and economic aid so it can contingently -- so it can eventually be victorious. >> the u.s. has been reluctant to send long-range missiles and cluster munitions until today. the white house announced it now plans to provide cluster munitions, which are outlawed for use by most countries. they released bomblets do not always explode on impact and can later kill civilians. >> i think we are at a point in the ukrainian war where there are already many munitions that litter the battlefield. positive impact of these munitions it provided outweighs continued concern.

it is overall to our advantage. >> another decision expected at the summit, the first revamp of nato's military plans since the second world war. nato has charted a specific military strategy for each region in the alliance. >> there will be a specific plan for the northern part of the alliance, the arctic, the north atlantic countries. there will be one for the central region of the alliance and one for the south across the mediterranean, and across those specific areas, nato will the first time in the last 30 years of assigned forces, so they are getting much more specific in response to the obvious russian challenges. >> but nato's new plan is expensive and its ability to implement it depends on member'' defense spending.

in 2014, leaders committed to spend 2% of their gdp on their military budgets by 2024, but so far, only seven of 31 member countries meet that threshold. the 31st, finland, is the newest to join since 2020 and has the longest border with russia. it became a member in april after the turkish president lifted objections for finland and sweden to join the alliance. >> i want to particularly thank you for what you did putting together the situation with regard to finland and sweden. >> but the process for sweden has been far slower. turkey will not allow sweden to join less at stopped supporting terrorists. president zelenskyy today warned indecision weakens the alliance. >> the issue of sweden's

admission to nato has not been resolved and the issue of sweden -- the issue of ukraine's invitation has not been resolved. we expect at least some steps toward a positive outcome. this is very important for the security of the whole world. >> i think it is looking unlikely this impasse will be worked out before the nato summit, but this will be a space where everyone will be watching very closely. let's hope if it does not happen , it happens soon after. >> the world watched as russian missiles better ukraine and the conflict reenergized the alliance, and alliance biden has spent the majority of his presidency working to unify. >> last night, we brought you the story of ukrainian mothers

and grandmothers going to crimea to rescue their children. some of the nearly 20,000 that were forcibly deported to russia or russia-controlled parts of ukraine. tonight with the support of the pulitzer center, two filmmakers and special correspondent show us how reunion can be both joyous and difficult. >> for these women, the return to ukrainian soil is everything. the first time they can really believe it that they can -- that they got their children back. >> i'm exhausted but happy that i'm finally in my homeland, the ukraine. i'm happy that i'm here with my child. that's the most important thing. everything else is little things in life. we just need to get home to see our cows and pigs. >> they have crossed over from belarus after a journey of some 3000 miles to get their children back from russian-controlled areas of ukraine. >> they had a lot of questions.

for example, whom do you visit there? >> my son. why do you want to go? it is my son. >> there he is. >> they are just some of what ukraine says are as many as 19,000 families separated when the russian military and ukrainian collaborators working at the children's schools moved their children to russian occupied areas, saying it was for their safekeeping, and never returning them. another boy, sasha, is rushed into a quiet car. he has autism and is nonverbal. after six weeks away from his family, he is struggling with physical touch and night terrors, his mom tells us. almost all men are not permitted to leave the country because of the war effort. it fell on this -- these women, many of whom had never left

their home towns before, to go on a dangerous journey to get the children back. journey was long, fraud, and secret, but as their bus pulled in to kyiv, they were met by a throng of international press. while they were traveling into russian-controlled territory, the international criminal court announced that russia's deportation of their children was a war crime and issued an arrest warrant for president vladimir putin and the russian children rights commissioner. she herself took custody of a ukrainian teenager from mariupol last year. it of journalists chronicled the women's journey and returned to visit them and their children after the initial media frenzy died down.

svetlana now back in kherson after retrieving her granddaughter, remembers a harrowing journey where she had to be careful what she told russian border officials about her visit's true meaning. >> they said if we call these phone numbers, if this information is not true, you are going to suffer very badly. i said i'm not lying to you, i'm telling you the truth, so they let me go. i was almost crying. i was frightened. >> svetlana's granddaughter is finally home in kherson, liberated from russian control last fall. she was taken to summer camp grounds inside russian-controlled territory. the camps seen here in promotional videos were used before the war as holiday spots for children. after the full-scale invasion in 2022, russian authorities started transferring ukrainian children there from territories

they had seized, telling parents they were being taken to protect them from the fighting. some initially gave permission for them to go for two weeks, but they were never returned. those working there were, according to the children interviewed here, pro-russian ukrainians, and encourage russian propaganda amongst them. svetlana says nastya was not physically harmed, but her experience frightened her. her family now find her changed and distant. >> she doesn't trust people. even the other kids noticed. why don't you talk to us, they ask. no, you give all your attention to your animals, to your dog. she spends a lot of time with dogs. she just wants to be alone day after day. >> nastya remembered only being texted by a schoolteacher, who was collaborating with the russians, persuading them to move to crimea.

>> i received a telegram message on my phone, like there's a cool opportunity in crimea. my homeroom teacher sent the text messages. >> once they crossed over, the teacher left them and fled to russia, they said. it would be six months before her grandmother rescued her from the camp. nastya may be home, but that home is still in ukraine along the front and dangerous. her grandmother's journey to bring nastya home can just in time. camp management were planning to move the children out before the busy summer season with paying guests. the children were under increasing danger of being moved to russia, made russian citizens, and put up for adoption. >> the camp manager told us we would be taken into russian custody on april 7 if we were not picked up by or families.

-- by our families. >> >> going to visit my child. i gave the address of the school, and to the phone number. they asked how he got there, i told them they were evacuated because they were shelling there. i did the best that i could. >> she remembers the day collaborators at his school handed him over to russians. >> we did not want to go when we found out we were being evacuated. everyone started to panic. then the soldiers came, put us in the military truck and took us away. the little ones cried, they were scared, but it was too late. >> it was a month before a

teacher gave him a phone to call his mother. at the boarding school he was taken to the occupied region, he described being indoctrinated with russian propaganda. >> they explained to us that russia is good, and ukraine is bad. they said thatussia restores everything, but ukraine only destroys everything. >> some of the teenagers had much darker experiences. nina, who is 16, was forced to do military training. pictured here and up black ski mask amash was trained to use a gun. >> we had competitions, mostly on saturday and sunday. there were three teams and your teams competed to dismantle machine guns, look for mines, and lob for aids. >> for her mother, her reunion after she traveled into russian-controlled areas, was

all the more emotional. >> little by little, she told me everything, even showed photos where they were with guns, swarming up ropes and shooting. they had a physical examination, lead test. have all the documents. i think they were being prepared for something. since she had the health screening, ultrasounds, all of her organs were screened. >> she struggled more than most. her mother moved away from their home with her, got her a dog and continues to try to help her heal. in the front line city, this teenager remembers she was deported to russian controlled crimea. >> there were a lot of buses, maybe 15. it was three days, may before. the buses were taken to different places, i went to the same camp as my friends. >> for the kids, being at camp was at first a great novelty.

a fun time away from home. they were fed, entertained and occasionally had classes. >> after months, we were thinking, why are we still here? some kids wanted to go home. we started asking questions, why aren't we going home? someone said is not safe to go there yet. he said you do not understand, it is not safe there and your parents can come pick you up anytime. and then they would take us home. >> those like her father had agreed to have their children go to holiday camps in russian controlled crimea. living under russian occupation, they were told the children would be sheltered from the fighting and would be returned in two weeks. the children did not return. >> of course if i had known, i would never have let her go at all she is just a young

teenager, i am responsible for her. of course i blame myself, not the child, not the husband or anyone else. >> we made the decision together. >> but i sent her there. >> i knew the probability of streetfighting was high, and we could see it was clear they were preparing for this. streetfighting has been scary, everyone saw what mar you both was like. this is why we made the decision. if we only knew. >> when it reached six months, i had for my hair out. i had not slept, and had sleepless nights, was on pills. >> she was moved to another camp, there, volunteers came to retrieve some of the younger kids. but she and others were told to stay inside. >> the kids who were not being picked up were asked not to go outside when volunteers came to take the children. i don't know why. maybe so that they did not how

-- did not know how many of us were in the can. they thought there was ukrainian tv there. so that they don't find out too much. so they don't ask us anything, so that we don't tell them anything. >> after some time, the camp staff began hinting at her russian adoption. >> they said that, there was a long russia that -- a law in russia that kids cannot live without parents for six months, so they will take custody of you. >> these families returned to surviving the war that rages around them. svetlana may have her back, but the constant shelling reminder that life with her remains dangerous. >> every day is like that, all day, from morning until late,

even all night. we are use to it. i will not leave and do not want to. it is all in god's hands. if we should die, then we will die in our homes, if it continues to have us live, survive and raise children, we will continue to live like this. >> a long-awaited counter offenses by ukrainian forces has begun. areas like these could become even more deadly. >> our biggest wish is to wake up and find out that we won. we want it to be quiet here again. want families not being separated. >> with each russian shell that lends by their homes, these ukrainian families finally reunited, are reminded that their lives together, while precious, remain fragile in the face of this war.

♪ >> to discuss this week's news, both here and abroad, we turn to the analysis of brooks and capehart. associate editor for the washington post. good to see you both. let's begin with the biden administration's decision to send to these cluster munitions to ukraine. just as biden heads to the nato summit next week. we heard the debate about why it is a good idea, but also the risk it poses to civilian populations. is this a sacrifice to the moral high ground for a battlefield advantage? >> this is war. president zelenskyy is fighting

a russian president who has been ruthless, bombing civilian targets from almost minute one. with zelenskyy pleading with the u.s. and the west to send tanks, planes, the most advanced military equipment you can give us because we need it. setting cluster munitions is crossing a line for a lot of people. but when you are the western alliance and the big mantra is, this is authoritarianism versus democracy, then democracy must win. democracy must have all of the tools possible. >> the u.s. stopped using these in 2003. >> apparently there are more munitions to send. i understand why they made the decision. why did they have no other munitions to send?

what was wrong with our supply chain said that we do not have normal artillery shells? it says that the ukraine advances not going great. in part because of the lack of munitions and because the areas are mind -- mined up. if you look at the history of war, people make terrible decisions. they have been fighting a war that is largely an artillery war. why should we think artillery warfare was going to yield any advance for either side? i hope they are asking these questions behind the tough decision. >> we have already seen opposition from within the president's own democratic party. sara jacobs put out a statement

opposing the u.s. sending these munitions, saying our international coalition is strong because we are united and living up to our values, sending munitions defies these two tenants. could this signal a wider rift? >> with all due respect to the congresswoman, she is one voice. there might be other members of congress who are behind her, we will see as the weeks go on if more democrats start coming out and opposing the administration. whether with regard to munitions or funding. my question to everyone is, should the u.s. send the fighter jets that zelenskyy wants? should the u.s. except president zelenskyy's assurances that he will not use them inside russian territory? these are the tough questions that david is talking about. >> what about next week's nato summit?

germany has already publicly opposed. >> i will anticipate they will publicly oppose it and understand privately. there might be some heartfelt opposition. if zelenskyy thinks he needs them, if there is no other way to mount the campaign, the u.s. is in the position of being responsible. have to make tough calls. it will be an important summit in the way that nato will be realigned by getting sweden in, and with how ukraine is treated. obviously we can't make ukraine part of nato anytime soon. but we can offer them security guarantees. that is the gradual reshaping of the post ukraine for europe. >> on the 2024 campaign trail, we saw numbers from campaigns. these are from the campaigns.

the dissent's campaign announced it raised $20 million since he announced his campaign. the super pac backing him helped raise $130 million. will this help him close the gap? >> that is what he hopes. $130 million, you can do a lot with that. donald trump raised $35 million, double what he made in quarter one. all of these numbers tell me, and should tell democrats that half the country wants one of these to win. it is astounding that twice impeached, twice criminally indicted and may be more to come, former president is raising money hand over fist. but with governor desantis, money can only buy you so much. if he does not change the way he

campaigns and is able to break through and have people think he is warm, human, wants to do this, i don't see him going anywhere. >> this is something we are seeing with a lot of other candidates, having to answer for things that happened in the past. he was confronted recently by one resident in iowa who asked him why he did not refuse to certify the 2020 election results on january 6. >> do you ever second-guess yourself, that that was a constitutional right you had to send those votes back to the states? it was not like you are going to personally elect him. >> that is what the constitution says. no vice president in history ever asserted the authority you have been convinced that i have. with all due respect, president trump was wrong, about my authority that day, he is still wrong.

>> he needs the votes of the people who do not believe the last election was legitimate. >> he gave the right act -- the right answer, it was a true answer. donald trump is not just a candidate, he is a social club. my colleague made his point, that when you are in the trump rally or jump caravan -- trump caravan, it is fun. they are joyous, they are around people that agree with them. it is a sense if -- sense of belonging. we have under covered that element. signing up to donald trump is not just an attachment to a normal political candidate. it is a movement that provides them with a sense of belonging. despite all that happens, donald trump has 78% approval. that is very high. it is hard to shake people off

of that. all of the candidates, mike pence's, ron desantis, it is not going to shake people out of their social club. >> i want to ask you about the ruling that band the biden administration from communicating with social media companies about disinformation online. the biden administration is seeking an emergency order to halt that dan. we saw a man armed to the teeth show up at the obama residence. where are we right now in this conversation between what happens in the online world and the real world violence? [laughter] >> this decision boggles the mind. you have an administration that is in the middle of a pandemic, the biden administration comes in with disinformation,

misinformation, they are trying to save people's lives. and see that the misinformation is happening on social media. a responsible, functioning government would go to those social media companies and say hey, could we have a conversation about this? we are trying to save people's lives. i don't understand how the arguments from the fever swamps have made their way into judicial decisions and are now preventing the administration from combating things that are doing real harm to the american people. i am glad you made the link to the guy who was arrested outside of the obamas home, with a gun and a machete. who is to say, had he not been caught, he would not have acted on that information? that is the question.

we are in a time where we should not have to ask these questions. i think we know what the answer would be. >> i do think we need -- they need to pull stuff down. they pulled over one billion things down. i don't trust take tech to be in charge of this, and i don't trust big government and cahoots with tech in private. there is a bill that would make the process more transparent so outside sources can see if they are being fair. it is a problem for democracy to have elites in washington and silicon valley making decisions about what is out there. that is something we have to wrestle with. >> thank you, good to see you both. ♪

>> what is poetry? what does it offer us? the recent winner of the pulitzer prize, carl phillips, no for the beauty of his language has some answers. jeffrey brown went to st. louis to talk to him for our series canvas. >> who am i, the hero says to herself, looking past his reflection on the lake surface down to where the darker greens give at way to darkness. >> carl phillips collection. winner of this year's pull a surprise for poetry. >> speak to me, speak into me. the wind said, when i woke this morning. let's see what happens. i used to worry -- some poets talk about a whole bunch of topics. it feels like i only have a handful. the handful includes stuff like love, sex, death. i don't know how you plumbed

those subjects. i will comfort myself by thinking of emily dickinson, who writes mainly about two or three rings. -- three things. there is a lot to be said about the things she writes about. i think she did an ok job. >> now 63, phillips is a longtime professor at washington diversity at saint louis. he is an author of 16 books of poetry and essays. >> i do think of poetry as somehow engaging with mystery. i think it is a mystery to be a human being and to figure out what to make about being in a body for whatever number of years we get.

and poetry is an expression of that ministry. >> it began as a way of coming to terms with his own body and desires, being a gay man, along with his biracial identity as a child of a black american who served in the air force and a white english homemaker. >> did you grow up in a way in which being gay would be unthinkable? >> shar. i grew up in a military family. it was not even about anyone saying this is not what you are supposed to be, it wasn't even talked about, it was not an option. being biracial, another way of not feeling that you fit in on either side. >> you are not this, you are not that. >> i didn't feel it until other kids in school would say you are not this, or you are not that. i thought i was just myself. >> one way into poetry was through ancient literature.

he studied latin and taught in high school. he has translated in greek. >> poetry is necessary. so poems i encountered by people will, living and anciently dead. there is something restorative in reading something like the iliad and knowing that the war has always happened. or what loyalty means or love me. -- love means. i am using two quarts of chicken stock. >> it is not all tragedy, he likes to cook and sing. ♪ >> he produced a series of videos to share with the world. but writing longhand is how he reaches people best.

bringing to bed -- ringing together scraps of ideas. >> you called poetry patterned language. >> up a whim is made of patterns, and a meaningful interruption of those patterns. there is sound, diction, a certain word might keep occurring, a certain image could come throughout the poem. and if artistry of writing a poem is getting those patterns to work in such a way that condition the reader's expectations and disrupted them. there is motion and that is a poem that lifts off the page. >> at a time when much of poetry takes on big issues, has a more intimate voice. he says the larger world is very there. >> people used to say, where is your 9/11 home?

and my feeling is that every poem after 9/11 is a 9/11 poem. apparently it is even political for me to exist as a queer man of color. i don't see how any poem is not political because it is an individual stance and a resistance to silence. one could have chosen not to say anything. even writing a poem about a leaf falling from a tree. and someone could say, how could you do that when all of these things are happening in the world? but even as they are happening, leaves are falling from trees. i think of poetry as a collective record of what it has been like to be alive in a particular moment of time. you, the dark and that nothing, not even the light displaces. you, who have been the single leaf that will not stop tossing

among the others. for you, -- >> be sure to tune into washington week or tonight right here on pbs. my colleague is hosting and is here now with a preview. >> on washington week tonight, i will be speaking with the country's top journalists about president biden's controversial decision to supply ukraine with cluster munitions. plus the trump desantis feud heats up. we will have the latest from the 2024 campaign trail tonight on washington week. >> watch pbs news weekend tomorrow for a look at how black and brown communities are bearing the brunt of automated speed cameras. >> the program was rolled out under the auspices that it was about public safety. >> this city councilmember

represents the ninth ward. >> it is not about public safety, the entire system is about generating revenue. the city does need money, but if we are going to generate revenue, it needs to be off the backs of the entire city of chicago, not the black and brown communities where the people are hurting the most. i have had residents getting a ticket when they go to the grocery store and when they go home from the grocery store. >> that is the newshour for tonight. on behalf of the entire newshour team, thank you for joining us, have a great weekend. >> major funding for the pbs news hour has been provided by. ♪

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laura: president biden's foreign and domestic priorities. >> we want to make sure that ukrainians have sufficient artillery in the fight. laura: the u.s. announce us in and controversial aid to ukraiae at a critical time in its counteroffensive against russia. just days before president biden is set to meet with top european leaders in an effort to expand nato and rally support for ukraine. plus -- peter: bidenomics is just another way of saying restoring the american droam. laura: before taking off, the president makes his case for re-election in an early primary state. >> identifying donald trump as having men compete against women in beauty pageants is fair game. laura: and the trump-desantis feud hets up again. next. >> this is "washington week."