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creates a trust to keep the craft alive. a raymond james financial advisor gets to know you, your passions and the way you enrich your community. life well planned. announcer: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation, pursuing solutionsor america's neglected needs. announcer: and now, "bbc news" n shocked by what we found in then prison system. >> do you think prison is providing a rehabilitation? >> no, it is a punishment, not a rehabilitation. >> we been raising the issues of

prison and prison capacity for, it feels like, decades. ♪ christian: britain's prisons bursting. new figures out today suggest there are over 1000 spaces left we will hear from a former chief inspection of prisons. the father of the 14-year-old boy accused of killing four people at a high school in georgia has appeared in court, charged with murder. we will speak with karen mcdonald, the first prosecutor in america to charge the parents of a school shooter. and donald trump will not be sentenced this month over his conviction for fraud in the hush money trial. sentencing has bee postponed until after the election. you're very welcome to the program. twoday, a court in sheffield

sentenced a man who took part in the summer riots to nine years in prison. the heaviest sentence handed down so far. thomas burley attacked police officers in august and was seen stoking a fire that had been set outside a hotel. the court was told there were more than 200 asylum-seekers and staff trapped in t building who thought they were going to burn to death. the judge told him you were a leading participant in an ignorant, racist attempt at mob rule. the prime minister promised that people woulday for what they did this summer but it is putting added pressure on prisons that are already full to bursting. the prison population is at 88,500 inmates which is a rise of almost 1200 and half of those cases are linked to the summer riots. there are over 1000 spaces before the prisons will be at

full capacity. it is putting enormous pressure on our prisons, as our senior correspondent has been discovering in london. >> this week, we went inside a prison in london. one of england's most crowded and dangerous jails. just jumped on the netting. prison officers are running up the stairs to get them down. the step is saying it could turn really quickly a quiet moment can become chaotic within a matter of seconds, as one prison officer said, it is like the flip of a switch. we saw the pressures facing staff and governors as they tackle drugs, self-harm and violence. >> the system is running at when you run at that high level of output, people g tired.

systems get frayed. that does cause problems. >> next week, the government will release thousands of inmates early to make more space. the hope is that will alleviate some of the pressure. following the bbc's rare access, the prime minister said he was alarmed by the state of the penal system. >> no prime minister should be in the position of having to concern him or herself with are there enough prison placements. we are doing what's necessary. we will make sure the prisons we need are b, but i have been shocked by what i found in relation to the state of our prisons. >> some of those working in jails say they've been at a crisis point for a while now. >> the bbc have done my members absolute justice. pentonville is a replica of jails up and down the country. lots of jails. >> there are concerns early

releases will mean more danger on the streets with some preferring to keep offenders behind bars for as long as possible. christian: let's get some detail on that. on tuesday, some 2000 prisoners will be freed early, 40% through the sentences rather than 50%. the government says it is not a good policy but perhaps the only solution in the circumstances. let's speak to the former chief inspector of prisons and former chair of the parole board for england and wales. thank you for being with us. what concerns you mostly about this policy of releasing early? >> i don't think the government have any choice in the short-term but to do what they are doing. the question is whether it will be enough. so, there's no choice, i think, but you squeeze the balloon in one place, the bulge just goes somewhere else. so, the risks with this are that some of those who are released

early will commit other offenses, will commit new offenses. we know that about a third of all prisoners who are released reoffend within one year. about half of those who ser their sentence of a year or less reoffend within one year. so, some of those that are released early now will reoffend. but, it is no comfort to the victims to say this, but they probably would have reoffend it anyhow a few months later if they had been released on a regular schedule. christian: you talk about squeezing the balloon and the bulge moving. the bulge clearly is moving towards the -- you know all about how much pressure they are already under. a deluge of work. >> exactly. i think there are two obvious problems. one is where are these people

who are going to be released going to live? isecondly, whether probation hs got the resources to properly supervise them once they are in the community. a third issue is basically, one of the things that may have happened to prisoners inside his they will havead help with their problem. if they are released and that is not continue to seamlessly out in the community, there's a real risk they will relapse and the good work that was done, and maybe that will be lost. i think there are some real risks. in the short-term, i don't see the government has any realistic alternative. in the longer run though, i do think they have a choice and that choice is this -- are they going to spend literally billions building new prisons to

cope with the ever-growing prison population? or are they going to try and control the growth of that population and put money instead into try to makeure that people have experienced staff who can try to address the behavior of the people that are held, and that people get support when they leave to set them straight a sickly. not saying that is an easy choice. but it is a choice. christian: there are two issues i want to pick up on what you just said. first, the space that is being created by ts policy, releasing next week, will be filled by those sentenced for the rioting this summer. but because these prisoners who are being freed early have not been properly rehabilitated, many of them are going to reoffend. the breathing space you are creating with this policy is getting narrower and narrower.

>> the government has been unlucky with riots. i think that does mean the breathing space they get will be less than it otherwise will be. they've got a big new prison with about 1500 places opening next year. so, they may be able to get throh to that. it will be very tight, but they have at least in the short term bought themselves a bit of a breathing space. now, they have to use that wisely to fix the long-term problems. christian: the other issue, because of the situation we are in, the serious assault of some prison guards have risen year on year. these are the people we expect to go into a vacation, to rehabilitate prisoners. they are terrified of doing their job because they are facing violence. how worried are you that the whole system is going to collapse under the stress that

the prison guards, officers are facing? >> i am very worried about that. i think the work prison officers dos very much underappreciated. what you need is not just numbers of prison officers. it is prison officers with the experience and authority to be able to manage the men that they are holding. and they shouldn't have to go to work fearing that they are going to be assaulted. i've been in a lot of prisons as chief inspector, but certainly some of the ones i have been in recently, our have been escorted by staff, i have never felt i need to be very careful about my own physical security simply because i didn't think the prison was not under control. i think the reality for prison officers as they are facing that every day they go to work. it is not surprising there is not surprising there's a very

high turnover of prison staff. because there is very high turnover, you don't get the experience and don't get things sorted out. i think that is a major problem. i think when we talk about prison capacity, it is not just a question of the physical space available, it is whether we've got sufficient staff to manage the population being held. christian: some sobering things to consider. nick hardwick, thank you for coming on the program. >> thank you. christian: in kenya, 70 children are still unaccounted for after a fire at a primary school which killed 17 boys. the boarding school is in the central hilands of the country, around 150 kilometers north of the capital. the fire burned out of control. the firefighters said it started in the boys dormitory that housed more than 150 students. some families are the waiting to hear whether their children are among the dead. all the bodies have been identified. our africa correspondent has

more from the scene. >> it has been a terrifying event for all the children involved. the international committee of the red cross tells us they plan to set up a trauma center at this hospital to off psychological counseling for those who have been shaken by the fire which broke out around 11:00 at night in a bs dormitory. 156 boys were sleeping. as the flames engulfed the area, some of them crawled underneath the beds trying to escape the fire. the firefighters came to put it out, but they were delayed because of muddy roads. neighbors rushed to the school and eventually they did manage to put the fire out and rescue many of the boys. sadly, many of them died and a number were severely burned. police said bodies were burned beyond recognition of those who passed away. now, families, some of them are still looking to see where their children are. they would have to identify remains. they would have to trace of the children to whatever hospitals they were taken.

that is occupying them rig now. it has to be said that fires at kenyan boarding schools are rather common. some time set by the students themselves, maybe because they are protesting against the workload or against living conditions. we don't know that that was the cause of this fire was. we are still waiting to hear what the reason for the fire was. there's an investigation ongoing. the president has said those who are responsible must be held to account. in the meantime, the family members do have a very heart-wrenching task to do in terms of identifying remains of those who were killed. christian: around the world and across the u.k., this is bbc news. ♪

♪ christian: welcome back. former president donald trump will not be sentenced in his new york terminal case until after the 2024 election. his legal team were told by the judge that further to the

request, he was postponing sentencing until november 26, three weeks after the election. he said he had taken the decision to avoid any appearance of he was trying to influence voters. donald trump was in a manhattan court today appealing against another verdict that went against him last year. a civil juries sided with e. jean carroll who alleged he attacked her in the dressing room of the department store in the 1990's. the court awarded damages of $2 million for sexual abuse and $3 million for defamation. the former president has repeatedly smeared her reputation after she came forward to make the allegation. and he was at it again today. >> the judge, we had two trials. we asked for a consolidation. he said no. the reason he said no is because you'd rather have double the publicity because that is bad for me. very bad because i am running for president and this is not the kind of publicity you like.

and, whether it is true or not, it's horrible. and in this case, it is so false. it is a made up, fabricated story by somebody, i think initially just looking to promote a book and when they called me, i denied the story. got sued essentially for defamation because i am denying a story. i should be suing her for defamation. christian: we will speak to our north america correspondent in new york for us. look, the appeals panel will rule after the election so we won't know how they reviewed the e. jean carroll case, but some of the arguments he made there, that he'd never met her, that his being wrongfully accused are the same arguments he was sued for before, so is he risking more liability? >> he is. if you listen to e. jean carroll's lawyers, that's

exactly what they think he's doing. there is a chance they are considering launching another case of defamation. he surely knows that. i was -- it was loosely called a press conference by his team. it was not in the sense there was no opportunity for the journalists to ask questions but even by donald trump's standards, this was a pretty unconventional event. there was a time in u.s. politics when relitigating in public every sexual assault allegation made against you, even if it is to deny those allegations would not have been seen as a winning strategy. but this is the donald trump world of politics and political reality that we live in today. what was a victory for him, of course, was his success in his criminal case. as you say, the judge there ruling, accepting the trump

team's request to have that sentencing delayed uil after the election. he said he did it despite all along through this process being at pains to make sure politics and justice do not mix. but he said their argument that there was a possibility here -- at least an appearance the public may conclude that in some way, the two are linked. he said however unwarranted that impression might be, he has decided to remove any possibility of people thinking there is electoral interference going on from his court. he wants to delay the trial. for many people, the problem with that is they think it ought to be part of the election. it would mean americans will go to the polls novemb novemb -- on november 5 without knowing what penalty he will

get. christian: it is dizzying following all these cases. good to talk to you. thank you. in the u.s., a 14-year-old boy and his father have appeared in court after a school shooting in georgia. he shot dead to classmates and two teachers come entering nine others. he is charged with first-degree murder and will be tried as an adult. his father also appeared, charged with involuntary manslaughter and second-degree murder. he's accused of giving his son a firearm despite knowing he was a threat to himself and other here's our north america correspondent. >> i want to inform you of the charges. >> 14 years old and facing four murder charges for allegedly shooting two classmates and two teachers. colt gray did not enter a plea, but at first, heard this from the judge. >> it can be punishable by death, imprisoned for life without parole, or imprisonment for life. >> minutes later, the judge in an extraordinary slip-up, had to

recall the teenager. >> i need to correct one thing on the record. the penalty for the crimes for which you are charged does not include death. >> the defendant's father in a rare move is also facing charges. colin great, who also did not enter a plea, has been indicted on 14 charges, including second-degree murder and cruelty. prosecutors say he knowingly allowed his son to possess a gun. it's believed the defendant use the semi-automatic rifle to carry out the shooting on wednesday, but a new security system installed a week earlier allowed teachers to call the police immediately, who took the suspect into custody within minutes. the victims included two students and two teachers. richard was a football coach at the school. christina, an algebra teacher. the two students were christian and mason, both 14. as usual in america, political

reaction split down party lines. >> we cannot continue to accept the carnage of gun violence. >> if you are a psycho and you want to make headlines, you realize that our schools are soft targets. >> holding parents partly responsible for school shootings have come increasingly to the fore after a couple was jailed in michigan earlier this year when their son killed four people at his high school. the charges against the father are even more serious in this case and he could face up to 180 years in prison. christian: it is rare for the parents of children involved in a school shooting to be prosecuted. but he made reference to the precedent set earlier this year when the parents of another school shooter was sentenced to at least 10 years in prison for not securing a handgun and not recognizing the mental health problems of their child. the prosecutor in that case in michigan was karen mcdonald and she's with us tonight.

thank you for coming on the program. from the details being reported around this case in georgia, do you see similarities between that case and the one you proseced? >> i know that like many of the victims i am in touch with, it was horrific to see and felt very similar to what occurred in our state. immediately, thoughts go to what these parents and students are experiencing, which is just great sadness and grief and trauma. even the sdents who were not injured at all, the effects of that trauma really never goes away. christian: the crumbleys were convicted of involuntary manslaughter. in this case, the father has been charged with counts of second-degree murder. what is the difference that you see in this case compared to the one you prosecuted? >> i don't have enough details

or facts to make that determination. i'm also not licensed in the state of georgia. i'm licensed in michigan and the statutes are not identical, nor is the burden of proof. at this moment, i know that dad purchased the ar-15, which as you know, is an extremely powerful, deadly weapon. it holds about 30 rounds and allows the shooter to shoot rapidly and it causes a lot of damage to a human body. i know that was purchased, that has been reported, and there was prior law enforcement contact. that is all we really know. christian: do you think you set the precedent, because it is rare for this to happen? the judge in your case said these convictions were not about poor parenting.

they said lack of acts could have halted an oncoming runaway train. i just wonder whether this is going to become the norm. if there is clear negligence as there appears to be in this georgia case, is it parents third are going to be held responsible? >> the judge was absolutely right when she sentenced the crumbleys. it was not being about a bad parent. you are allowed to be a bad parent. nor is it about holding parents responsible for the actions of their children. i'm generally not supportive of that. it's for the agreed to set of facts in -- egregious set of facts in this case. so, i don't ascribe what happened in our county and the decision i made and the convictions that were obtained as a precedent because candidly, my sincerest hope was that we wouldn't need to set such a

precedent and we would never have the same set of facts arise that would give rise to a charge of involuntary manslaughter of a parent. christian: i suppose what i am getting at is when you talk about how to tackle this endemic problem in america, it does split down party lines. if there can't be a solution in terms of tightening up gun laws, maybe making parents aware that they are liable is the way to get children mental health treatment and to ensure that weapons are locked away as they should be. >> i have to push back on the idea it is split down party lines. i'm an elected official. there is no doubt. but, the wave of support which was really surprising and i really expected a lot of negative backlash, which i ultimately decided i could not care about, is from all sorts of people.

moderates, democrats, republicans. so much support for that prosecution from responsible gun owners. i actually think most of us, regardless of what letter we have after our name, what our kids to be safe and the message needs to be it is so easy and simple to secure a firearm. it takes less than 10 seconds. christian: karen mcdonald, we are up against a break. vely to ta announcer: funding for presentation of this program is provided by... financial services firm, raymond james. announcer: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation, pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ announcer: "usa today" calls it, "arguably the best bargain in streaming." that's because the free pbs app

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