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>> though he speaks of an emergency order, the numbers are the lowest in some time. >> this is quite a dramatic change and is, frankly, and abrogation of the duties of america to take refugees, as we always have. caitríona: caitríona: joining us on the panel, former republican congressman and presidential candidate joe walsh. also, washington bureau chief of "usa today," susan page. hello. welcome to our special edition of "the context" live from washington, where for this hour and every day at this time we will be focusing on president trump's second term. we are expecting this our another announcement from the president to added to the growing pile of executive orders that he has already signed this week. christian: but still reverberating around washington,

the fallout from the first executive order that he signed on monday to pardon 1500 people who were prosecuted for their role in the january 6 insurrection. according to reporting today, it was a last-minute "rip the bandage off" decision that caught some republicans by surprise. joe, new precedents being set. presidents can preemptively pardon family, friends, criminals, some charged with sedition. america doesn't have a king, but we are dancing closer to king like power, axios wrote today. joe: my god, we are. we live in unprecedented times i question joe biden's pardon of his son and his family, but in his defense, we just elected someone who pledged to put his political prisoners in jail. these are unprecedented times. i understand why former

president biden did what he did. christian: did he set a precedent? joe: gosh, no. we have done preemptive pardons before in america, and when you've got someone running for president who says i'm going to put general milley in jail and liz cheney in jail and he goes on and on, those people need to be protected. caitríona: susan, the supreme court's ruling last summer on presidential immunity was so wide-ranging. that enables presidents to have greater power than before. susan: well, it doesn't relate to the pardon power, which is in the constitution and is without limit. it is one of the most sweeping powers a president has. but it does protect a president against criminal prosecution for things he does while he is in office. in that way he free array to a president to do whatever he wants and often ends and feel confident just once when he is in office and for confident he will not face consequences. caitríona: given that speaker

johnson and nc is reconstituting the committee that investigated generally six, the committee that found, it says, liz cheney should face criminal prosecutions, does it mean joe biden was right to give her a preemptive pardon? susan: it should reassure members of the committee that they have a preemptive button even though --preemptive pardon even though some of them said they didn't wanted and all of them said they did nothing wrong. this is not one of the popular things donald trump promise to do during the campaign. the immigration orders have majority support from public polling. the pardon of january 6 defendants, especially those convicted of a violent crimes, that does not hold majority support of american public opinion i'm surprised they chose to go down this route in a big way in his opening days. christian: it clearly did catch some of's allies by surprise. we heard from the vice president last week saying they would look at it on a case-by-case basis but they didn't expect to charged with violent offenses to

be freed. let's listen to some of the senators on the hill. >> they were absolutely justified. i don't know all the cases, i certainly don't want to pardon violent actors, but there were miscarriages of justice -- >> he pardon violent offenders, are you comfortable with that? >> a lot of the pardons were well-deserved. >> increasing the penalties up to and including the death penalty for the murder of a police officer and increasing the penalties and creating federal crimes for assaulting a police officer. that should give you everything you need to know about my position. it is -- it was surprising to me that it was a blanket pardon. i'm going through the details. >> it since the message that the president has the authority to issue pardons, whether it is president biden or prison trump, -- president trump, and congress has no role. christian: i take appointed susan makes, that this is not what people voted for. they would say that january 6

was litigated in election and trump won. joe: any republican surprised right now but anythign donald trump does are to have their head examined. this is how he is going to govern. i'm sure a lot of republicans thought he would go through these case-by-case. donald trump wants january 6 to disappear. mike johnson, the speaker, doing what he is doing, the new committee constituting the new committee, that is because donald trump wants it. donald trump wants revenge. christian: but it doesn't end, does it, for the capitol hill police. there they were at the inauguration defending and protecting many of the same senators who had to run for cover that day. susan: that's right, and we have heard from some of those capitol police officers about their outrage or concern or alarm or dismay about what has happened. those who were convicted of assaulting police officers are in a particular category that

there -- certainly donald trump talk over and over again that he was going to pardon january 6 defendants, but he was never specific about what the standard would be. jd vance said the violent ones wouldn't be pardoned, but as with many things with president trump, you should be cautious in being confident you know what it is he is going to do. caitríona: and he was asked about this at the impromptu press conference in the roosevelt room and it was put to him, the republican party is supposed to be the party that has the backs of law enforcement officers and he said, "oh well, we might have to look again at that." he can't, it's done now, right? joe: and, look, you go back to what everyone of these republicans set on january 6, the day after january 6. they were offended at what the people did, going after police officers and the violence. they have all taken that back in four years because this is donald trump's party and he is

going to rule with an iron fist. mike johnson will do whatever trump wants him to do. christian: i'm being told in my ear that the leader of the proud boys, who was sentenced -- joe: 22 years. christian: for sedition. it is not some thing they are prosecuted for over 100 years. what role are these men going to play in public life? when donald trump was asked about this last night when a reporter in the roosevelt room said what role do the oath keepers and proud boys play, he said "we'll see." joe: [laughter] again, not surprising. what did he do? trump just ok'd political violence. that guy you were talking about, the head of the proud boys, all of these violent felons let out out, they are free to do what they want because donald trump has their back. this is a scary time. caitríona: what does this mean for america, susan? susan: this is one of those

issues that will divide the country. president trump has done this amazing thing by making january 6 less about the assault on the capitol, the assault on democracy by trying to stop the counting of electoral college votes, and more about grievances on his treatment and was he mistreated and were his followers mistreated. he has made it for many of his followers a day of love. that has been quite the remarkable political turnaround. for most americans that is not the way they see it. even if they were willing -- the reason donald trump won this election is not because of january 6. it is in spite of january 6, is because of people's concerned about immigration and the economy and inflation and their dissatisfaction with incoming administration. it was not to relitigate january 6. christian: coming back to this issue of whether donald trump is the new monarch, the reason this is so important is because it sets out the way he is going to

rule. until he is challenged by the supreme court or by congress, you can expect planning more of this. --plenty more of this. the supreme court has said in recent months that now anything a president dies in office, he gets immunity for that. joe: he ran for president promising to be an authoritarian. he laughed about it, "i will be a dictator on day one," but he said that repeatedly. he's going to try to do as much as he can do. congress won't stop him. the hope is that the courts will. susan: well, he's got two years. traditionally that first midterm, especially for a second-term president, although he is a second term in especially because of joe biden's term between his two terms, that is traditionally a time when the party in power suffers a serious setbacks. there is every expectation, history says democrats will regain control of the house in two years. trump will then be a lame duck

because under the constitution he cannot run for a third term. it's not that he has got unlimited powers forever, but he has significant powers at this moment -- 'christian: he personally is not bound by an election. him personally, he is not a 4 -- it is not as if -- this is the second term, effectively. that is what has concerned a lot of people, that he is almost unfettered. joe: and again, i agree with traditionally everything susan page just said. but we have always lacked an imagination when it comes to what trump will do. when i say he might try to run for president again -- it's not in the constitution. susan: it is in the constitution. joe: i know what is, but he probably doesn't think that. four years ago he tried to overthrow an american election. we never could've imagined that.

it is not inconceivable that he think he is going to run again. susan: and we see him challenging the 14th amendment to the constitution with his executive order denying birthright citizenship to children who are born here to parents who don't have the right to be here, who are undocumented. that is what is considered today to be a fringe interpretation of the 14th amendment. we'll see if this supreme court will say you are wrong, you can't do that. caitríona: we have heard him talk a lot in the last couple days about legacy, which is not something he focused on in his first term. he has used that word several times. it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he wants to see one of his children take over from him, skip out jd vance . christian: dynasty in the offing? caitríona: i think he looks to the bushes, clintons to a lesser extent, and thinks trump should be in that as well. susan: seeing himself as a kind

of american monarch. what with the british king think about trump thinking of himself as king? christian: it is more the american people. i thought you got rid -- joe: we rebelled against the king. [laughter] christian: have you gone searching ofor the constitution on the white house website? joe: it's gone. christian: it's been replaced by this hollywoodized movie of his first day in office. and he does look like a monarch. he is the head of state, there is a certain vendor to the office, but it is just interesting how he -- search and grandeur to the office, but it is interesting how he portrays it. joe: we have never had a candidate run to be as king. he is going to try to do as much as he can. we cannot lack imagination again and be ready for whatever he is going to try to do. christian: still looking at these pictures of miami airport on the right. there was, interestingly, one

woman who turned down a pardon, this 60-year-old woman pamela hemphill who was sentenced to 60 days in prison. she told the bbc there should be no pardons for the riote onr january six. joe: she committed a crime. what a courageous thing to do. she is the only one. caitríona: as we look at the miami airport where henrique terrio is due to arrive thousand he has had his sentence commuted. as far as the record books of the land say, those crimes are still crimes, do you think we will see these people appeal those convictions take it to the next level? susan: i don't know the answer to the question, but if i were them i wouldn't take the commutation and run. joe: but i don't think they will because donald trump -- this is almost an act of lawlessness.

trump has opened the door to this. christian: that would be the final chapter, would it not, in retelling the january 6 story, if you clear all the prosecutions, you relitigate in congressional committee, you tell a new story of what happened that day, reinvent history? susan: you can have a pardon, you can have commutation. you are still convicted by a jury of your peers, convicted in some cases by a judge. even if that conviction is wiped out against your record, it stands. those court cases stand. many of these were meticulously prosecuted. and we have heard some of the judges involved speak out against the pardons, saying you cannot be racist through this way, and that is true. joe: let's not forget that i think was yesterday, trump is still talking about heat won-- he won in 2020.

you talk about his legacy. they do want to rewrite the story. that is a big part of what this new jan 6 committee will do, rewrite the narrative in his favor. caitríona: we had seen him soften that language in the debate he had with kamala harris. he was like "oh well, the results, da da da," and he said at least twice in the last two days the 2020 election was rigged, back to using that word "rigged" again, which he had moved on from during the campaign to go back to the middle and bring back this phase of acceptability -- joe: think about how crazy this is. pam bondi, his pick to be attorney general, but really every one of his cabinet picks was asked a direct question, did joe biden win in 2020. none of them would answer that question. think of how crazy that is. susan: and how destructive -- number one, how it undermined joe biden's presidency among

some voters. it also undermines a sense of democracy is something solid that you can count on. you have an election, you win or lose, you accept the results. it goes against the whole tradition. christian: we are watching pictures from miami but also watching pictures from the white house because we are expected donald trump to give us another pronouncement. we are not given any detail on what it might be. let's take a short break. around the world and across the u.k., you are watching bbc news.

christian: as we have been discussing, it is hard to keep up with the sheer number of executive orders the president is signing this week, the beginning of an enormous upheaval we are likely to see in trade, politics, public policy. maybe there is no better example than the decision he took yesterday on dei. caitríona: diversity, equity,

and inclusion, a barge part of employment practice in the u.s. as it is in europe. with a few sweeps of the pen on a few executive actions, donald trump has killed off all of those dei programs within the federal government. any staff employed on dei programs will be put on paid leave by the close of business day today, 5:00 p.m. they have to be gone. they have canceled all dei training and terminated dei contracts. it is not just those employed by the federal government. there has been an order from the president that private-sector companies should do away with these diversity programs as well let's talk about this now. we are joined by political commentator and dei educated calvin dark. thank you for being with us here. what sort of message does this send out, this really across the board removal of these plans, something that president and his allies are calling common sense

programs? >> well, yes, thank you for having me. it sends a couple of messages. first it shows the donald trump either doesn't believe or doesn't care that discrimination, inequality, racism is still a problem that he has the president needs to address. it also sends a message to the part of his face that is openly racist and against a forward-looking society. also, he shows that he has no interest in america's future. if donald trump had said "i want to get rid of these programs because they are not working" -- then i would be listening. what he didn't do that because he has no interest. that is the message he is christian: sending to americans today. christian:i'm going to interrupt you for one second because we are looking at these live pictures from miami international airport and we can see enrique tarrio, who was jailed for 22 years for sedition

for his role in the january 6 insurrection, greeting friends and family at the arrivals in miami. you can see that he is being met by a number of reporters who are there. served just under a year in prison after his sentencing. clearly someone who is going to be playing quite a role in public life, certainly in the next week or so, because there is plenty of people who want to talk to him. i want to hear his side of the story. calvin, we will maybe focus back on that shortly. let's come back to dei. i want to ask you this -- we have a very active debate in europe about dei. even those who approve of this program would say it is very hard to measure cultural change. how difficult is it to deliver on the ambition of dei with high-impact?

calvin: one of the biggest obstacles is when you have people in places of power like donald trump and some leaders in congress who don't believe that positions occupied by women and minorities, that the people in them are qualified, but they are only there because of their race or their gender. it comes from the top. that is the biggest obstacle. the second obstacle is donald trump always frames dei efforts in what we are giving to people who may not deserve it. what he doesn't realize is that dei helps the government, because you know what, if he is trying to find solutions for problems, if everybody around him is a rich white real-estate developer from new york,, not have the lived solutions that -- lived experiences that get the best solutions for america. it baffles me that donald trump and republicans talks about every state needs to come up with their own solution because we are a diverse country, that works, except for on race and

gender issues. the biggest problem is the people at the top don't understand or won't understand the importance of diversity in all of our institutions and private sector. caitríona: calvin, bringing it back to what the president is actually doing here literally, in telling people that they have no job, they're being put on administrative leave for the next week or two and the companies have been ordered to wind down their positions in that time, can he do that? even more so, this region into the private sector to get them to do the same -- reach into the private sector to get them to do the same? calvin: i'm sure there will be legal challenges to what he's is doing with government employees. we have seen this campaign against government employees, that they are all sitting at home not doing any work. there is returned to work in the office. that is a separate issue for donald trump one thing i want to say is that during his first term when donald trump did do similar things, that me tell you one of the effects.

i am from north carolina, as you can probably hear from my accent, but i speak several languages because i studied in morocco through the fulbright program at the state department . i was helping the state department encourage more african-americans to study abroad in the foreign service because traditionally african americans don't. do you know that problem was ended because it conflicted with donald trump's dei initiatives? how is trying to encourage more diverse americans to take advantage to serve our country in any way positive for the future of america? christian: thank you very much for coming on the program. joe walsh, it is not about the destination. the bbc has had a long-running debate about diversity, do we want equality in the workplace? absolutely. is 50-50 the best way to go about that? that is the debate a lot of companies are having. i wonder whether what is happening in america, whether that has an influence on the debate in europe. joe: it will.

look, trump is a reaction to the perception that the left in america has gone too far on issues of race and gender and crime and immigration. trump is that fist, he has that reaction to all of that. and so what he will do with these issues of dei and gender and sex, he will overreach, and he will do the same thing on the border with immigration. but he is a reaction to perceived overreach by the left. susan: joe is right, there is a long tradition of presidents overestimating their mandate. we saw that with george w. bush, we saw that with joe biden maybe. there are some opponents of president trump who are sure he will overreach. but it could be quite a tumultuous process of the overreach and reaction to it if there is one. caitríona: given how much of this is ingrained in our companies approach hiring, do we need these official programs for people to carry on the ether's of them -- ethos of them?

susan: we may find out. president trump cannot order private companies that he cannot determine their employment practices, and i'm sure some companies will continue with dei programs. we will see if the several years we have had with companies trying to pay more attention to the issue, if that has lasting effects even if the programs go away. christian: we are up against the right. on the other side of the break, i'm looking at the pictures of the fires in los angeles. we will talk about climate change and the sweeping directives he has given on the green agenda. there is lots to talk about there. we will be right back after this. announcer: funding for presentation of this program is provided by... announcer: funding was also provided by, the freeman foundation. and by judy and peter blum kovler foundation, pursuing solutions for america's neglected needs.

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