geoff: good evening. i'm geoff bennett. amna: and i'm amna nawaz. on the “news hour” tonight, european allies criticize the u.s. for moving ahead on ukraine peace talks while seeming to sideline ukraine. geoff: president trump announces new reciprocal tarrifs, a move

that could escalate trade wars and raise inflation. amna: and what trump voters think about his first weeks in office, marked by immigration crackdowns, controversial cabinet picks, and a gutting of the federal workforce. >> so far they are saying, ok, he gets a honeymoon period, i'm waiting to see what he does and so far i like what i am seeing, because what i am seeing is movement. ♪ >> major funding for the pbs "news hour" has been provided by. >> cunard is a proud supporter of public television. on a voyage with cunard, the world awaits. a world of flavor, diverse destinations, and immersive experiences. a world of leisure, and british style. all with cunard's white star

service. >> carnegie corporation of new york, working to reduce political polarization through philanthropic support for education, democracy, and peace. more information at carnegie.org. and with the ongoing support of these individuals and institutions. this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you.

thank you. amna: welcome to the “news hour.” today, european leaders pushed back against what they describe as concessions and shifts by the trump administration on ukraine. geoff: yesterday president trump started ceasefire negotiations, while his defense secretary doubted ukraine's future in nato. today, ukrainian and european officials demanded continued support for ukraine, and a seat at the negotiating table. nick schifrin is in munich for us tonight. nick: at nato headquarters today, the traditional class photo was all smiles. but behind the show of unity, tension over ukraine. from britain. >> there can be no negotiation about ukraine without ukraine, and ukraine's voice must be at the heart of any talks. nick: lithuania. >> whether we decide to fall under the illusion that mr. trump and mr. putin are going to find a solution for all of us,

and that would be a deadly trap. nick: germany. >> it is regrettable, and i say this myself, but it is part of the truth. the trump administration has already made public concessions to putin before negotiations have even begun. nick: the u.s.' nato allies demanded nato fulfills its 2024 promise that ukraine's future membership is quote, irreversible, and ukraine and europe be part of any negotiation. kaja kallas is the european union's top diplomat. >> it is clear that any deal behind our backs will not work, any agreement will need also ukraine and europe being part of it, and this is clear that appeasement also always, always fails. nick: that appeared to be criticism of secretary of

defense pete hegseth's statement yesterday. >> the united states does not believe that nato membership for ukraine is a realistic outcome of a negotiated settlement. nick: today, hegseth tried to walk that back. >> i want to be clear about something as it pertains to nato membership not being realistic outcome for negotiations. i'm not going to stand at this podium and declare what president trump will do or won't do, what will be in or what will be out, what concessions will be made or what concessions are not made. >> i thought his comments were good yesterday and, they're probably good today. nick: in washington, president trump suggested russia can veto ukraine's entry into nato. >> i don't see any way that, a country in russia's position could allow them, just if, they could allow them to join nato. i don't see that happening. >> when putin says that he really wants peace, do you believe him? >> yeah, i do, i believe he wants peace. >> do you trust president putin? >> yeah. i believe that he would like to see something happen. i trust him.

nick: in ukraine, during a visit to a nuclear power plant, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy said the u.s.' shutting the door to nato would be quote, difficult. >> it's important that everything does not go according to putin's plan, in which he wants to do everything to make his negotiations bilateral, between him and the united states of america. we, as a sovereign country, simply will not be able to accept any agreements without us. nick: if ukraine sounded worried today, the kremlin, sounded encouraged. spokesman dmitry peskov. >> the current administration, as far as we understand, holds the view that everything must be done to stop the war and for peace to prevail. we are much more impressed by the position of the current administration, and we are open to dialogue. nick: back in brussels. >> the u.s. is committed to building a stronger, more lethal nato. nick: in his press conference, and his first meetings with his nato counterparts, hegseth tried to reassure, that the trump administration had their backs.

but he also reiterated the u.s. would push nato members to spend 5% of their gdp on defense. >> make no mistake. president trump will not allow anyone to turn uncle sam into uncle sucker. nick: the trump administration's push for europe to do more, now turns to the munich security conference, where vice president vance is leading the delegation. today, he and his wife usha visited one site of europe's darkest moment, the dachau concentration camp, where the nazis murdered tens of thousands of jews. it was liberated, by u.s. soldiers, 80 years ago this april. >> being here and seeing it up close in person really drives home what unspeakable evil was committed and why we should be committed to ensuring that it never happens again. nick: tomorrow will be a vital day for the trump administration

's relationship with europe and ukraine. european commission president ursula von der leyen will speak, followed by vice president jd vance, who will then meet with ukrainian president zelenskyy in a meeting ukrainian officials are saying today will describe, or will find out the country's fate. geoff: what are officials telling you ahead of what could be a pivotable day? nick: they describe themselves as anxious and a little confused. senior european officials described themselves as anxious to me because of what they heard from pete hegseth at nato headquarters this week. even if he walked back some comments. and what they have heard from president trump all week about nato, russia and how he feels about ukraine. but they are also a little confused because they tell me that they have had different messages from different people. senior european officials met with j.d. vance in paris earlier

this week and left that meeting very reassured how vance felt about nato and ukraine. american officials tell me they are trying to explain to european officials the trump administration does not have a normal policymaking procedure and they just have to be patient until the trump administration and president trump comes out with a specific policy. the bottom line is the europeans and ukrainians are very anticipatory about tomorrow's comments by j.d. vance, not only what he will say in public about ukraine and nato but also what he will say in private in that meeting with zelenskyy. whether the u.s. will treat europe and ukraine as partners as they try to end this war. geoff: nick schifrin, thank you. ♪

amna: we start the day's other headlines in washington, d.c., where president donald trump hosted india's prime minister narendra modi at the white house. >> we're gonna talk about trade. we're gonna talk about many things, but it's really an honor to see you. amna: they appeared in the oval office together this afternoon, just hours after trump signed a plan to impose so-called reciprocal tariffs on many of america's trading partners. that would include india, which modi is hoping to avoid. earlier, modi met with elon musk, one of trump's closest allies and the world's richest man. modi later posted on musk's social media platform, twitter, that the two discussed, quote, space, mobility, technology and innovation a federal judge today paused president trump's executive order restricting gender-affirming care for transgender youth. a lawsuit was filed earlier this month for families with trans and nonbinary children, saying their healthcare has been compromised by the order.

judge brendan hurson granted today's hold while that case proceeds. he says trump's action, quote, seems to deny that this population even exists, or deserves to exist. the pause is effective for 14 days, and could be extended. in germany, authorities say at least 30 people were injured this morning when a driver rammed his car into a crowd, not far from the site of the munich security conference. police flocked to the scene, where demonstrators had taken to the streets for a union strike. authorities quickly detained the suspect, a 24-year-old afghan asylum seeker, and later, hoisted his mini cooper onto a tow truck. local officials believe it was a deliberate attack. german chancellor olaf sholz said the suspect must be punished. >> even if we do not know everything we will know at some point, one thing is already apparent. an afghan perpetrator has seriously injured people here.

and that is something we can neither tolerate nor accept. amna: today's incident follows a number of recent attacks that have reignited the immigration debate in germany. last month, an afghan suspect was arrested after a knife attack left two people dead. in december, a saudi doctor plowed his car into a massive christmas market, killing six and injuring hundreds. in the middle east, hamas said today that it will release three israeli hostages on saturday, allowing the shaky ceasefire with israel to hold for now. the group had threatened to suspend further handovers, claiming israel violated ther agreement, namely by not allowing tents and shelters into gaza, among other alleged violations. hamas announced today that mediators are helping to resolve the dispute. an israeli government spokesperson said troops are in position to resume fighting in case hamas does not follow through on saturday's release. >> we have already amassed forces inside and surrounding

gaza. so, if those three are not released, if hamas does not return our hostages by saturday noon, the ceasefire will end, and the idf will resume intense fighting until the final defeat of hamas. amna: the names of the three people expected to be handed over have not yet been announced. there are still 17 hostages set to be released during this phase of the ceasefire. of those, israel says 8 are dead. here at home, there's been dramatic pushback to the justice department's call to drop charges against new york city mayor, eric adams. the top federal prosecutor in manhattan, danielle sassoon, resigned her position today, rather than obey the order. the long-time republican was not the one who brought the case against adams, but had been filling in on an interim basis. while in washington, d.c., two federal prosecutors reportedly quit rather than carry out orders to drop the case. adams has been accused of accepting illegal campaign

contributions and bribes, in exchange for political influence. he denies any wrongdoing. minnesota senator tina smith announced today that this term will be her last. >> i have decided not to run for re-election to the united states senate in 2026. amna: smith said on social media her decision was not political, but entirely personal. her open seat deals a blow to her fellow democrats, who already faced an uphill battle to re-take the majority in 2026. potential democratic candidates were quick to emerge. minnesota's lieutenant governor peggy flanagan said she plans to run. representative ilhan omar is considering it, according to her chief of staff. and governor tim walz, the running mate of former vice president kamala harris, is reportedly also in the mix. a new study suggests that bird flu has silently spread from animals to some veterinarians. the centers for disease control tested 150 dairy veterinarians

across 46 states for antibodies to the virus. three of them were positive. none of the vets reported working with infected cows, or having symptoms. the results echo two smaller studies that found evidence of past infections in farmworkers that went undiagnosed. researchers say this suggests that the u.s. is significantly undercounting bird flu infections nationwide. in california, a powerful storm, known as an atmospheric river, is hammering the state with torrential rains and wind. >> we won't be here, but we're hoping that everything will stay off our driveway, and just flow down. amna: in southern california, officials have advised residents of four counties to evacuate. they say heavy rains could trigger mudslides in areas that were ravaged by recent wildfires. forecasters expect as much as six inches of rain in higher elevations. that same storm has already piled two feet of snow in parts of the sierra nevada region.

and caused whiteout conditions in oregon. law enforcement there says more than 100 vehicles were involved in a pileup, which closed part of interstate 84. meantime in the eastern u.s., road cleanup continues, following two days of heavy snow and freezing rain. over 150,000 people are still without power in virginia and north carolina. on wall street today, stocks rallied on relief that president trump's latest tariff plans are not as dramatic as some had feared. the dow jones industrial average gained more than 340 points on the day. the nasdaq surged nearly 300 points, or 1.5%. the s&p 500 also ended firmly in positive territory. still to come on the “news hour,” lawmakers question president trump's nominee for education secretary. a nobel-prize winning economist on the potential financial risks ahead as the u.s. shifts course. and a look at efforts to eliminate the historical practice of genital mutilation

in african communities. >> this is the pbs “news hour” from the david m. rubenstein studio at weta in washington, and in the west from the walter cronkite school of journalism at arizona state university. geoff: this was a big day for president trump's team and some of his worst cabinet picks. robert f. kennedy jr., a vaccine denier and a critic of the pharmaceutical and food industries, was sworn in as the secretary of health and human services. he now has oversight over the fda, the cdc, medicare, and medicaid. he was confirmed in a tight vote with no democratic support and a no vote from the former senate majority leader, republican mitch mcconnell. the senate confirmed brooke rollins overwhelmingly with a bipartisan vote to become the new secretary of agriculture. as the top official on food supply, she's expected to deal

with the impact of tariffs and a crackdown on immigration that could affect farmers. amna: one of the president's most controversial nominations, kash patel to be the next fbi director, also took a big step forward after the senate judiciary committee voted along party lines to advance his nomination. and linda mcmahon was pressed about president trump's plans for the department of education during her confirmation hearing today. lisa desjardins has our report. >> i appreciate you. lisa: it capitol hill interview for a job the president suggested she should work herself out of. >> the legacy of our nation's leadership in education is one that every person in this room in braces with pride. unfortunately many americans today are experiencing a system in decline. lisa: democrats presented a united front against the nominee for secretary of education. >> will you oppose any cuts to public education, yes or no? >> well, the president does not

say that we should cut funding to public education. >> yes he is. yes he is. he and elon musk announced he would immediately cut $900 million from the department of education. lisa: mcmahon said she had not talked with mosque about the agency at all. yesterday the president made his position clear. >> i wanted to be closed immediately. the department education is a con job. lisa: mcmahon walked a finer line. >> it is not the president's goal to defund the programs. lisa: aiming to reassure senators. >> if there is a movement to abolish the department of education it has to go through the united states congress. >> yes. it is set up by the u.s. congress and we work congress. it clearly cannot be shut down without it. lisa: but she left open that it could be dismantled. democrats raised concern about special education funding, part of the individuals with disabilities education act.

>> there is a reason the department of education and idea exists and it is because educating kids with disabilities can be really hard and it takes the national commitment to get it done. lisa: mcmahon said she could not cut that but she could move it. >> i think it could very well go back to hhs where it started. >> i want to be clear. you are going to put special education in the hands of robert f. kennedy, jr.? lisa: this was a fundamental debate on education and government. >> is it the responsibility of a federal government is that every kid in america whether you are poor, middle class, rich, get a quality education? it is! >> lisa: republicans have advocated for school choice, more dollars for private and charter schools, and less federal involvement in education. >> the department of education was set up in 1980 and since that time we have spent almost a

trillion dollars and we have watched our performance go down. lisa: u.s. results are actually a mixed bag. there are still pandemic setbacks. a recent national analysis showed the average student is still half a grade level behind scores from before covid. republicans only see a simple bottom line. >> we are a failure. we are a disaster. lisa: mcmahon is the latest trump nominee with an unconventional background. >> what a pleasant surprise. lisa: the billionaire is best known as the ceo of wwe. she and her husband have been trump donors and friends for years. but she is also an inexperienced nominee.

democratic senators were on guard. this is the first hearing since trump and elon musk began gutting u.s. agencies. >> what will you do if the president or elon musk tells you to not spend money congress has appropriated to you? >> we will certainly expend those dollars congress has passed. but it is worthwhile to take a look at the programs before money goes out the door. lisa: she back to the administration's ban on transgender people. >> i do not believe -- lisa: and trump's executive order against nonwhite people. she was asked if african-american history could be a violation. >> i don't know. >> you are going to have a lot

of people scrambling. lisa: despite protest or interruptions. the hearing itself was among the less heated so far, though the debate over education is likely to remain boiling. for the pbs “news hour,” i'm lisa desjardins. ♪ amna: president trump ramped up his trade battles with countries around the world today after he announced a plan for new reciprocal tariffs that could take effect this spring. the tariffs would match the tax rates that other countries charge on american-made imports, for allies and adversaries alike. and the president insisted the tariffs would collect so much money, they would help wipe out the deficit and debt. >> this is gonna be the thing that makes our country really prosperous again.

and this is gonna be what pays down to $36 trillion in debt and all the other things, and this is going to be uhhh, this is an amazing day. this, i think there's gonna be a very big day and in a very positive way for our country. amna: once again, there are many concerns about the president's goals, questions about when the tariffs might take effect and the reaction to them. mark zandi is chief economist at moody's analytics. thank you for being with us. let's begin with your reaction to data days announcement from president trump. the scope of what he is announcing in the way in which he is proposing a new regime of reciprocal tariffs. mark: yeah. i am worried about this. it is very disconcerting. it feels like the president is moving to broad-based tariffs, tariffs on every country and every product. that is a problem. it means higher inflation for u.s. consumers.

just to give you a sense of the magnitude of that. just the tariffs on chinese imports in the u.s., the 10% tariff president trump just imposed, that will reduce the real purchasing power of a typical american family between $200 and $250 a year. just do the math on that. the impact will be very serious. can it will cost jobs. it is unimaginable the rest of the world will just stand still. they are going to respond. that is going to cost american jobs. at the end of the day it is going to raise the cost of living and reduce jobs. it is lose lose for everybody on earth. amna: the president said these are not set to go into place until april if they do at all. it does inject more uncertainty into the economy.

when you look at how investors and the markets are reacting, do they show the same concern that you have right now? mark: not yet. i think investors do not quite believe the president is going to follow through on the tariffs he has articulated because he hasn't. they are on-again and off-again. i think investors are convinced that the president is not going to follow through. but if the president does follow through we will see a clear reaction in the stock market. you can go back to the tariffs the president posed in his first term, a lot of good research done by the new york fed for example shows the impact on his this is in terms of profitability and jobs and the impact on the stock market. so buckle up if the president follows through. and who knows. but if he does, the stock market

will collapse. amna: you heard the argument from the president and his advisers that the tariffs will even out trade in balances with other countries and if there is short-term pain, they say over the long term it will lead to greater productivity and lower prices for american consumers. does that argument mean anything to you? is that grounded in anything we have seen before? mark: no. absolutely not. we have a long history of tariffs across the globe including here in the united states. it is very clear that the greater the tariffs and trade restrictions the less trade you have, the worse off economies are. there are near-term effects. the cost-of-living is going to go up. there are longer-term effects. it reduces competition in markets which makes productivity slower and lower and reduces the standard of living of everybody.

again, it is a lose lose. it is not someone wins, someone loses. everyone is going to lose. to argue the are tentative i think is any face of history. amna: president trump is not the first president to employ and levy reciprocal tariffs. what is different to you about the way this president is using them to presidents in the past? mark: two big differences. the scale. the tariffs that president biden put into place, $18 billion specifically on chinese products, very strategic saying you have to play fair. this is the penalty if you don't. in the case of president trump, a lot of uncertainty here but president trump is talking about broad scale tariffs across the board. and the second thing is the uncertainty. think about all the switches and

changes, this and that tariffs, it is on-again and off-again. businesses are getting dizzy with all of that. how can you make a hiring decision if you don't know what the tariffs will be? the other important point in terms of the uncertainty, these are being done under executive order. it is not congress voting and saying we want to do this. it is the president imposing them. to find a businessperson seeing that i know that the tariffs can go away with another executive order and certainly the next president could change them. so if that is the case, i am just not going to make an investment because i do not know what the tariffs are going to be or what they are going to mean. amna: mark zandi, good to speak with you. mark: thank you. ♪

geoff: new insight tonight into a group of voters that helped swing the 2024 presidential race. those that voted for democrats in prior elections but for donald trump this november. the analysis comes from recent focus groups conducted by republican strategist sarah longwell. she joins us now with more on what led these voters to shift political allegiances. thank you for being here. sarah: thanks for having me. geoff: our team poured over the hours of tape you recorded with this group of voters and a common refrain seems to be as expressed by this group that at least donald trump is doing something. here's what monty from new york had to say. >> i think he's running the country like a business and what happens if management steps into a business for the first time? shut everything down. let's see the books. let's look at everything. let's see what needs to stop being spent on and what. so, i understand that. it sounds scary, the funding freeze, and i know it does, it does, like, shake up a lot of industries or a lot of places,

but it's something that needs to be happening. geoff: how did this group respond to some of the specific actions president trump has taken? the dismantling of government agencies, mass deportations, the pardons for january 6 criminals? sarah: those are all different issues. one of the things you have to understand about a lot of these voters is they cannot disentangle all of the crazy news stories. they tend to take it in general as an assessment of does it feel like things are happening. i think contrasted with a lot of frustrations i heard from voters just going back six months ago with joe biden is i don't feel like i hear him or see him. the way that donald trump hits people with tons of information. they are not necessarily there to adjudicate if it is good or

bad. they just know stuff is happening. they say i am seeing ice trucks in my community and i'm glad the january 6 pardons is an interesting one. people don't like the january 6 pardons but it is not a deeply held conviction. they are like i wish he didn't do it but whatever. it is one of those things that doesn't stick with them as a really important issue. i think right now donald trump is benefiting with the people who don't pay any attention. i like what i am seeing because i see something. geoff: what are their information sources? how do they get news? sarah: even over the years i have been doing focus groups which is since donald trump came on the scene, in the last eight years i have seen such a shift

in the way people consume media. for a long time you heard people say they were getting a lot of news from local news. now it is almost entirely podcasts, scrolling on their phone, they catch things on social media. they don't live on twitter or social media but maybe they follow things about wellness or health or working out and they get their politics infused in that or in the sports podcast they listen to. the way that people are putting together their information sources now is pulling a little bit from here and they are this very fragmented media environment. geoff: you also asked them about diversity initiatives which president trump is getting rid of. what stands out to me and which of the way this group seems to have adopted donald trump's view on this, that diversity and

competence are somehow mutually exclusive. here's what two people had to say. >> i don't want, like, to be hired just because i'm black. i want to get hired because i deserve the job. at the same time, i can understand why, you know, in certain like career fields or certain industries, there might be a need for more inclusion of, of diversity. but, i'm not for including that diversity at the risk of having quality workers. >> when you're talking about government, places like the fire department, when we're talking about things that are, are there to save lives, right? you want the best of the best, right? i want, i want the best firefighter. of all the firefighters, i want the top ones if i'm going to be safe. geoff: how did this issue in particular resonate among the voters you spoke with? sarah: i gotta tell you, this is something i hear across the board from voters including a lot of democratic voters where

they do not love -- it is not just dei. you hear a lot of different words. sometimes it is dei, sometimes it is woke. voters want to push past this era of segmenting people. a lot of voters do not like the way donald trump talks about people or republicans talk about people. geoff: you mentioned gender which trump often talks about as gender ideology. this also came up in these focus

groups. >> when my daughter was in the fifth grade, they had this whole conversation about what your pronouns are. and so, like, i was routinely, like, scolded for not respecting my daughter's pronouns as they/them. and i'm like, that's not something that's going to happen in this house. i gave birth to a daughter. it says it on her birth certificate. she's a girl. this is the same girl who wanted to be spider-man three years before that. so, she doesn't have the capability of deciding what she wants for breakfast, let alone adding a penis. geoff: given the way that donald trump in particular and republicans broadly have changed the parameters around these cultural issues, how does that complicate the effort democrats now have in trying to win back voters and go on the offensive on some of these issues? sarah: it is complicated in the sense that yes, i hear a ton of

voters talking this way. where the new way people are talking about gender and identity does not sit well with them. at the same time they do not like the cruelty. a lot of voters say i think donald trump is going too far. he is a racist and hateful. i think donald trump is going so far. the extent to which he blamed dei for those plane crashes in washington, d.c.. that does not land with voters. i think democrats should focus on the places where donald trump is going to excess on these issues, where they are obsessing over them. trump and his administration are doing far more things about gender ideology than anything on the economy. voters care way more about the economy than i do about singling people out. democrats have to figure out how to stop defending some things

which are unpopular or focus on things that are broadly unpopular with voters and instead focus on things that matter. but it is fair to focus on places where donald trump is being excessively cruel. because voters don't like that either. geoff: republican sarah longwell . ♪ amna: let's dig a little deeper on how the public mood and political attitudes have shifted over time, tied in no small part to economic shifts and dislocation. geoff: paul solman spoke recently with economist and columnist paul krugman about his career and how the combination of polarization, globalization and job loss changed the way many americans see the economy. paul: for just short of 25 years, nobel laureate economist paul krugman was a new york

times columnist. he began the column in the clinton years. krugman left the times just before donald trump was inaugurated. i asked him back then what has changed in 25 years. >> when i began writing the column, people were extremely optimistic. i was hired basically to talk about all the good news and maybe funny stuff that was happening in this glorious late 1990's economic boom. and it's been a very troubled world since then. paul: by trouble, at least domestically, he means donald trump's policies. but americans voted for them, didn't they? >> most voters have very little idea of policy. mean, you look at the polling, ask people, do you approve of obamacare? and it's still pretty negative. and you ask, do you approve of the affordable care act? and it's very positive. so that's telling you something about what voters understand about policy. paul: krugman pointed to this recent michigan consumer confidence survey question.

>> are you personally better off than you were five years ago? in october, a clear plurality of americans said, no, we're worse off. in november, a clear plurality of americans said, yes, we're better off than we were five years ago. so people's assessment of their own financial situation turns out to be kind of driven by narratives that are floating out there. paul: krugman supported president biden's policy of manufacturing investment to help regions hurt by trade and china. but voters in those regions went for donald trump. did they reject the policy? >> maybe, or maybe they just didn't really attribute it to biden or whatever. although i think we are seeing a dynamic now, which is that it's going to be harder than some republicans think to reverse those policies. that people may not have given biden credit for that new battery factory in your town, but they will get really angry if the battery factory closes

because we've cut off the subsidies. paul: did most economists, including yourself, not appreciate how huge a factor the cost of living change pre-covid to today was, is? >> i would have thought, i did think, i even looked at statistical analyses that said that most of the discontent over inflation, which inflation peaked in the middle of 2022 and has come way down. and i would have expected people to have largely gotten over it by now and they haven't. paul: do you have an explanation for it? >> i think that part of it is just that that the shock of this coming for the first time after decades of price stability was part of it. and then part of it is just that our political discourse has become much more fragmented, much more polarized.

paul: for voters with incomes under $50,000 a year, household incomes, donald trump actually did better than kamala harris. why do you suppose that was? >> trump promised to bring prices down, which is a promise that he immediately abandoned as soon as he won. that would have appealed to low-income voters as a promise. and also, there's a lot of confounding of income and education and paying attention. we know that trump won heavily among people who pay very little attention to the news. paul: one great burden of a low income, besides not affording things, says krugman. >> is the cognitive burden it places on people. the biggest benefit once i started earning a nice income was not having to worry all the time about what things cost and whether i could afford this or

that. so asking people to have a sophisticated view on what economic policy can and can't do is going to be correlated with income, unfortunately. paul: krugman not only made a good living, he also advised various administrations on economic policy. advice taken? >> the thing that i've learned in real life is that no matter how much you know, no matter how right you've been, your ability to actually influence policy is very, very limited. i mean, if you ask how many times has somebody with actual power actually taken advice that i gave them, the answer is once. my whole life. paul: what are you least proud of? >> i think maybe the thing i'm least proud of is that i missed one of the important problems of globalization. i thought it was on the whole a good thing, but that it would be problematic.

but what i missed was the way that the impact would be concentrated on particular communities. so we can look and say that the china shock displaced maybe one or two million u.s. manufacturing workers. a million and a half people are laid off every month. so, what's that? but what i missed was that there would be individual towns that would be in the path of this tidal wave of imports from china that would have their, you know, their reason for existence gutted. paul: yesterday, i caught up with him for two final questions. first, why he left the times and moved to substack, where more than 200,000 followers now read whatever's on his mind. >> it's very important to me, given my sort of dual career, to be able to weigh in on ongoing discussions of economics in a way that you can't do in an 800-word column written for a general audience.

and so i had a newsletter at the times which was summarily cancelled. they said i was writing too much. that was when i decided i needed to leave. but also that i had always been very, very lightly edited at the times until the last year. and then the editing became extremely intrusive. and i felt that i was putting in an enormous amount of effort trying to undo the damage and that everything was coming out bland and colorless as a result of the fight over the editors trying to tone things down. paul: and finally, what is he most worried about at the moment with trump back at the helm? >> well, i'm most worried about that 2024 may have been our last real election. i mean, given that the, what appears to be a loyalty purge of the federal bureaucracy, what appears to be unwillingness of the trump administration to obey court orders, maybe historians

will look back and say that american democracy ended in january 2025. that's top of the list. paul: well, like his substack, not bland, not toned down. for the pbs "news hour," paul solman, working from home outside boston. ♪ amna: it's a taboo topic and an age-old practice across several countries and religious traditions in africa, the middle east and asia. an estimated 230 million women and girls are subjected to genital mutilation or cutting. geoff: fred de sam lazaro reports from senegal, where one group has had success in getting thousands of african communities to abandon the practice. a note that the group does not receive any current funding from

usaid, so it is unaffected by cuts to that agency. and a warning, this story contains some explicit references. fred: in the small town of dialakoto, recently, there was a coming out party for several nearby rural communities, a boisterous, and until a few years ago very unlikely, gathering called a declaration. attended by elected, traditional and religious leaders. one after the other, these communities came forward to proclaim that they were abandoning female genital mutilation or cutting. it's a removal, partly or wholly, of the clitoris, a practice some scholars trace to beliefs about chastity until marriage or even hygiene, dating back some 2000 years, one that the u.n. and governments have long tried to eradicate. >> the new rule is you do not, you do not cut your daughter.

fred: on a bumpy ride to the declaration, i asked molly melching what's bringing about change here. the key difference, she says, it's not a directive to eradicate, but a decision to abandon cutting. >> we need to abandon ourselves. it's not because someone tells us to. fred: melching is globally recognized as founder of a group called tostan, or breakthrough, best known for helping communities across several african countries abandon fgc. it's not exactly what the danville, illinois native set out to do when she moved to senegal as a student then peace corps volunteer, a long time ago. >> i would not have dreamed that i would be here 50 years, although this is a magical though although this is a magical country. it's beautiful. fred: she began in education, working to develop children's reading materials in local languages. in senegal, books, if available at all, were in french, the former colonial language that few can read or even speak. with a small grant, she began in the village of sam ndiaye, where she also lived for 3 years.

>> we saw this great hunger for education among the populations. they wanted to learn to read and write and they wanted to learn more about health and how they could prevent illnesses. fred: it grew into adult education, first for women, eventually everyone, and focused on the causes of various health problems. >> they wanted to learn what happened to them. we didn't even bring up fgc until much later in the program. and meanwhile they had learned. what are the good practices and what are practices that may harm and lead to problems later on in life. fred: as fgc came up, organically, she says, the newly acquired health education helped link the practice to its myriad painful short and long-term consequences, infections, hemorrhage, even sterility and death. tostan's approach includes teaching about human rights and in discussing fgc, she says, the message was one of support not shame. >> we understand that you did this not because you wanted to

harm your daughters. and no woman wants that her daughter not be able to marry because no one respects her. so they had no choice. and suddenly they realized that together, collectively. today, we're going to a declaration of 29 villages. fred: although she's not active in the day to day running of tostan any longer, melching is a celebrity, reconnecting here with many alumni from its education programs, women like 52-year-old doussou sissao, who have carried the torch forward after attending one of the earliest declarations. >> in 2003, we did a declaration for many communities around here because of that desire to see -- to end violence and practices which are harmful to people, to

girls. so now we need to even go to other places where people are still practicing. fred: her own 3 grand-daughters are now free of the pain endured by their elders. sissao is one of hundreds of so-called social mobilizers for tostan, traveling to communities to urge abandonment. how did the men react to all these changes? >> in the beginning it was hard because the men didn't know what goes on when you practice this female tradition. they just accepted that that was what was to be done. fred: we visited sounkarou diambang, village chief, now in retirement, who recalls being approached by women in the community. he called together religious leaders. senegal is predominantly muslim. >> they said, let us look in the koran and see where it's written that women must go through this. and they found nowhere where it said that they must be cut.

fred: that interpretation removed a significant hurdle to abandoning fgc, and the support of many men. indeed, many social mobilizers and tostan staff are male, many driven by memories of a loved one's suffering. melching took time to stop by the family of one late campaigner, boubou sall, who years earlier had lost an eight-year-old daughter. >> he thought when she got a fever two weeks after she got the fgc operation that it was malaria, and so he treated her for it because he had the pills with him. when she got worse, he then was told that she had tetanus and it was too late. fred: it was an emotional reunion with sall's family. the tostan manual he used, in the local mandinka language, was still on the shelf, 12 years after his death. >> this was the hygiene and health module where bubu sall said he learned the transmission

of germs and realized that his daughter died because she was cut with a knife that was not sterilized. fred: he traveled village to village with his story and guidebook, urging people at tostan classes to attend a declaration event like the one in dialakoto. these are a critical step in normalizing a social change. for communities considering abandoning female genital cutting, one last concern is will they be ostracized for abandoning a time-honored tradition. the hope from these gatherings is that they can be an instant cure for that stigma, everyone can see that everyone else is doing it. melching says that that decision to abandon is just one part of a holistic approach to improving life in communities. she took me to sam ndiaye, the village where it all started decades ago. after a ceremonial welcome, we were shown the latest vision board, a development wishlist

for the next 10 years, illustrated by hand in a community where not all adults can read. the most pressing priority, adding a doctor to the nurse who now heads the health center they brought to the village a few years ago. so this didn't exist when you moved into this village? >> no. fred: it's spartan but a solid building block toward better health. the key to tostan's success, she says, has been to play a supporting, not directing role that's so common in aid work today. help communities write a grant for example, or provide health information and let communities decide for themselves. and how many villages have abandoned now? >> over 9500, in eight countries. fred: a small dent in a global problem, melching says, but a lesson that development works best from the inside out. for the pbs "news hour," i'm fred de sam lazaro in dialokoto,

senegal. geoff: and that is the "news hour" for tonight. i'm geoff bennett. amna: and i'm amna nawaz. on behalf of the entire "news hour" team, thank you for joining us. >> major funding for the pbs "news hour" has been provided by. >> on an american cruise lines journey, along the colombia and snake rivers, travelers retrace the route forged by lewis and clark more than 200 years ago. american cruise line's fleet of modern riverboats travel through american landscapes to historic landmarks, where you can experience local customs and cuisine. american cruise lines, proud sponsor of "pbs news hour."

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♪ hello, everyone, and welcome to "amanpour and company." here's what's coming up. all countries, no matter where it comes from, all countries. >> trump goes after friends and foes alike. what will that mean for america's standing in the world? then -- >> there's rules. three rules of