>> let me ask you this question. is this book for professional women only? >> it is largely meant for professional women. that is who we envisioned our audience to be. it is certainly for working women, but i think we can throw men in there as well. >> i got an awful lot out of this. meeting for the first time. claire shipman, i have known for a while. what is your definition, now, of success? >> i am most proud of having achieved a life between a

balance of a career and the four kids i have, and my husband, too. it is having work that i find interesting, and that satisfies me professionally, and also having time for a life. having achieved that balance, and setting out to achieve it, is what i feel is really a success. >> if you turn the clock back 10 or 15 years, when it was a woman's obligation or duty to get a job, get on a treadmill, are those is familiar to you? >> very much so. my mother, if there is one thing i remember, she died when i was 20, she wanted my sister and i to work. that is what she wanted for us. she wanted us out of ohio, where we grew up. i never heard anything about having a family.

i never had any doubt that i would work. i never thought it would be an issue. i thought i could achieve what i wanted to achieve. i woke up at age 35 and i thought something is missing. i am glad i caught it when i did. >> we're talking now about the job, a partner, a mate, children -- you have two, you have four. >> children, not mix. >> we like saying we have six children between us. >> i like that, as well. you also say in the book that the workplace has changed, in the favor of the women. it is no longer necessary to be on the to and bill. you can have it all. >> we call it a new all. it is not the old commercial where you bring the bacon, fry it in the pan.

it was not quite as sexy. the new all is defining success for yourself, not letting somebody else say you ought to be, you should be, what is your next move, you should be here on the letter -- it is recognizing you when you have something you like, and going with it >> when i was at university in the 1980's, the high was in britain, but it was the same message. you went to work, you require to work hard. you would get to the top of your profession. somewhere along the line, you may or may not fit in a few kids. it was not having it all, it was doing a doctorate you are sold a good of -- a bill of goods per >> you are both washington. you are both in the media. you are both well-known. it -- is it difficult to get

off of the fast-paced and say i want to work less, take home less money, not be on the road all of the time. do you achieved the status where you can walk into a boss and say that, or our use in a lot of women could be doing that if they knew how to do it? >> i think a lot of women could do that. he did not have to be two television people. -- you do not have to be to television people. we have an engineer in detroit. we have someone that works at an auto insurance in texas. we have professionals who have made the same kinds of choices. to some extent, it is about going to a mental process. the question you ask about and can you do this, you have to decide you want to. >> it is hard. that is how katty kay and i first bonded, recognizing some

secret code that we both had doubts about at times about whether we wanted the next promotion, the next round on the letter, in what is often a stressful career in television. it is hard to say no. >> in the old days, you were supposed to go to the top. you are saying it is ok to say you do not need to go there. there is more to life than a job or working? >> that is what writing your own rules for success really means. it is not listening to your boss, your agent, or your peers. it is deciding this is what i get to the end of my life, what do i want to look back at and think i achieved? that is the trace unit heard >> it is not easy. do not think this will be -- >>

it is not easy. do not think it will be easy. i talked to the ceo at sara lee. she quit and took seven years off to spend with her children. it was an astounding mauve at the time per >> i want to take a break. we will let folks know claire shipman it is with abc. katty kay is with bbc. a terrific book for women and four men -- "womenomics: write your own rules for sucess." look in your e-mail at 11:00. look at your e-mail at 4:00. simple things like that. take a break. sit tight. "this is america."

"this is america" is brought to you by"this is america" is made possible by hyundai motor america, maker of the 2007 sonata. the national education association, the nation's largest advocate for children and public education. the family trust, and the american life, a tv network. >> now, you are saying that the workplace is no longer a man put territory alone and women have great value. i am thinking, he say they have power, the value, but they just

do not know it yet. >> i think this was the most exciting part of the book. when and have so much power in the workplace. most of us did not understand it. the companies are starting to understand that, but that are not going to share that information. they would have to pay us more. there are studies. one at pepperdine university that looked at fortune 500 companies, the companies that had more senior women executives make more money. there are a handful of those studies. we now control 85% of the consumer purchases. we are looking at a talent shortage. when did have more advanced degrees than men do. -- women have more advanced degrees than men do. all of this, including the new value of the female management style, which some people are saying is different, and

perhaps, more valuable,, all of that adds up to a lot of powerful women in the workplace. >> what we are saying is that you can take that power, and not necessarily aim for the ceo or the corner office. most women are saying we are happy to trade some money for time. harvard did a study showing that professional women were leaving the work place in greater numbers than those joining. they were hitting that crunch moment of children as opposed to careers. you can take that power, go into your boss and say i do not want a big bonus. what i actually needed more time. >> you say that women are in demand. there is a supply, demand think. the smarter the company is, the more women than what on staff. you mentioned that pepperdine,

all of these people did the study is can they find out that they bring the value, assets, shareholder equity -- all of these things to the company. why do women approach things, or how do they approach things differently in the workplace than men do? that is one of the reasons they want to have them on board. >> this is a tricky issue. it gets that something that a lot of women have fought against for 30 or 40 years, our forbearers were struggling to say that we are not different. now, i think there is a recognition that men and women have different management styles. women are collaborators. we look for solutions. we are less directly competitive. we do not take the bigger risks. a lot of the talk at gatos this year was that had there been more women at the top of these

investment banks, when the world be in this economic situation? women have a different style in terms of looking at the future and making more conservative decisions pitted having men alone makes some of those leaks might -- decisions. having men alone making those leaps might not have been the smartest decision. >> if you put women at the top, they tend to be more cautious but >> it is your program, but i want to share and that it built. i am doing the round table that we did some years ago. i put out on the table "do women look at things differently than men?" lynne cheney took umbrage at that i would even ask the question. she kind of implied that it was a sexist question. i bit the bullet, and we went on

with the show. the next day, madeleine albright is on "meet the press" with tim russert, and he asked her if she thinks women look at things differently than men, and she said ", of course, we do." i think there is a big advantage to having women looking at things. empathy, and not ego. >> there is an advantage to diversity in general. it is a diversity in general. it is not that companies should be all women, but there should be a mix of voices. when you are cutting out any voice, it is going to make a difference appeared >> if you open your doors, and you open your boardroom doors to women and men, you are just reaching a bigger pool of talent. you are diversified. it is simple as that. >> you sit at 50% of the

bachelor's degrees that are given out every year go to women. you're saying that to% go to women in terms of master's degree. you're also saying that 62% of the women who have one child are either working part time or not at all. then, 60% of the women who are working want more time for themselves, their partners, and so on and so forth. it is easy to toss out the statistics, but what are witnessing? >> basically, it seems to me when you are learning is that educated women want to work, but they do not want to work the kind of hours -- the 60 hour weeks, the dash to the day care, they did not want to do that scenario. they need the work place to change. what is happening now is that the workplace can change. partly because of technology.

here is what is really exciting. the companies that let women and men work more flexibly, find their productivity goes up. if you let people have that freedom, they are grateful, they want to work for you, and they work better. >> this is key. the balance tends to send manager's screening. the idea is not be. >> we go into war raging in boss's pet >> it is horrible. >> -- we go into a worry in bosses. >> it is horrible. it is not an issue. you make more money if you give your employees' freedom. >> here is what i wrote down. when an "there is more -- wind -- there is more to life and work."

women did not know they're in the driver's seat. -- women do not know they are in the driver's seat. they do not know they can walking to the boss and say it -- >> for years, women have felt never spared >> you bring up stress, guilt and fear. talk about those. >> the guilt. just today, i am thinking about my son. our brains are shooting these messages back and forth. if women do not get a grip on the healthy guilt, the realistic guilt, it could stymie us. >> when men are real perfectionists. we are micro-managers. you have to let some of that goal. you cannot do it all. >> recall to when 2008 was

coming, and you have to do a lot of travel. you have to get it all set up. i am going to get to you in a minute. >> i realize, i could see i was traveling a lot. every time i went on a trip, to try to make things easier on my husband, or assuage my guilt for traveling, i used to make sure there was food in the refrigerator, make sure the baby sitter was organized, have the kids schedule lined up. then, i started to realize that i was annoyed by this. i was starting to resent the fact that i am also organizing the house for when i am not there. my husband never asked me to do that. that was me. the next time i went on a trip,

i did not organize it, and the house was fine. my ego might have taken a bruising since i was not key to rittenhouse, -- to run in the house. to not feel guilty about traveling so much. -- do not feel guilty about traveling so much. >> now, clair shipman is an ardent people-pleaser. how did that play into the whole thing? >> just through some horrible, humiliating experiences. >> tell us just one. >> i have such a desire to please that i literally will be sitting at my desk thinking, if there are people laying carpet,

where the man mowing the lawn, i think he is thursday, i had better run down to the store and get him a ham sandwich because he is helping me so much. i cannot stop doing that. it happens to me at work, as well. i want to say yes to everything. at one point, i said yes to one too many assignments. you realize it is damaging. >> could you say i am not available to go to the republican convention? >> i did, thank you very much. yes, i did, and it was very hard to do. finally, i realized it was clear to be both children's first day of school. i decided i could not be away for that. my bosses were fine. >> some of this is also ego. we talk about this in the book. if you are going to write your own rules to success, you have

to stop listening to those voices are around you that set out to see the next step must be upward. we get this all lot in television. part of television is feeding people's ego. if you work a little bit more, take that extra assignment, your bosses will like you, and you will end up with your own show, and on the back of the bus. >> do i need to be there? >> do i need to be there, or do i need to be home? if not been on the back of the bus means spending more time at home, you have to recognize that. that is where our own mental change has to come. >> that is the point. short of storming into your boss's office, which we argue you have the power to do, there are so many ways to find time short of that, where we just strip ourselves up by being perfectionists.

>> you are saying you have to change your mindset. you put your finger on something that is interesting. you want to present your case to the boss, but you want to be well-prepared. you want to put it on a trial basis. you want to secure out all of the ankles. you want to know the questions. you want to know how he is worrying about if he gives it to you, having to give it to him, and her. >> the whole world is one to change. god forbid there is going to be a revolution. >> they found out that most people prefer to work the regular set hours. >> there are a number of companies that let you dial up or dial down your career, work from home, work flexibly, and you can do a myriad of things,

but what they found was that any given time, 10% of the employees are really taking advantage of that. there is nothing really to be afraid appeared a lot of people like working at the office. they like to work full time. >> if you are going to make this case, you are not going to ask for a favor. he does not want to hear a sob story. just do not go there. if you have to make the business case for why this will worked. have answers for how you will be more productive. why will the ball and not be dropped? >> you have to answer all of this. >> you have made the case, by citing a number of companies whether it is best buy -- i like the fact that oxygen, oprah's

network had 24 vice presidents that were working part-time, or out for maternity leave. >> it is not just women with kids. this is just people that what some time toward >> i want to go to the gym. i want to take a class. >> i just want time for my elderly parents. i want to have time to take them to the doctor. >> let me ask this question whether it is writing the book, living the life being in the media over a long period of time, what is the single greatest lesson that you have learned in your own lives that you take with you on a day-to- day basis, that helps you live your life? >> i think it is really being clear about what i want from my professional life and my personal life, and not what other people want for me. if i have that clear set of goals, know what my parameters are, whatever i am off to do, i

can see if they match up against my goals. if they do not, i say no. >> i guess is -- i guess it is a variation. understanding what i want, and also knowing that your bosses, your co-workers, they are not spending their days thinking about you. they are not been dwelling on whether you have just asked if you have to go to the republican convention. they are not spending two months thinking about that. you are a small part of their lives. if you do not need to and passed over it. he to take some of the motion out. -- you need to take some of the motion out -- emotion out. >> choose carefully what you do. >> this floored me.

438 million vacation days were not taken. what is going on with that craziness? >> we are workaholics. >> and we are in washington, in the meeting occurred >> i know, it is horrible. >> you say go into the boss, present your case, and do it well, and you can control when you work, where you work, how you work, and have time for your husband, wife, the kids, going to the gym, the parents -- you say write your own rules. it is important in this book, "womenomics" that women know they can write their own books

-- rules. >> they can do it even and this economy. companies do not want to get the big bonus. this might not be a bad time to go to a company and say you cannot pay need the extra money, how about the four-day week. >> the fact is companies are looking to get creative. this might be in exactly the time when they want to negotiate. >> it is a wonderful book. i loved reading it. people are afraid to ask. ask for what you want, and listen to what you get. present your case well. you might be working a 30-hour week, pick four de week, and have more time at home. thank you you believe both very much. >> for online video of all "this is america" programs, a visit

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