[captioning made possible by kcet public television] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> since the election of barack obama, there has been a vigorous debate about the notion of a post-racial america. tim wise reject the idea of a post-racial society and believes the debate this contributing to racial disparagement. a fascinating conversation with author tim wise coming up right now very good >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> with everyone making a difference, and you help us all

live better. >> nationwide probably supports tavis smiley. working to improve financial -- proudly supports tavis smiley. working to improve financial literacy and security that comes with it. good >> and from viewers like you. thank you. >> tim wise is a noted author and activist. his latest book is called "colorblind." good to have you on the program. i want to start by reading a paragraph that i think will set us off to a pretty fascinating

start to the conversation, but i also think it does justice to what your work is about. let me read from page 20. "by endorsing color blindness, president obama implies that there are no institutional obstacles faced by people of color that could not be weakened or abolished by color blind policies alone. he also implies wide or people of color face the same obstacles and do so on a relatively even playing field, but these notions are so overly saturated with falsehood that the man as intelligent as he simply cannot believe them, which then leads to political calculation as the basis for his position. sadly, president obama is willing to ignore the pain of race-based in justice to make life comfortable, and this only

after he has been elected and the campaign is over, and the unlikelihood he will ever speak the truth behind these matters shrinks to nearly zero. in this case, there is no option left but for us to correct the record before his approach those real damage to the cause of civil rights and racial." >> i need you to do the audio version of this book. you pick the most direct her rough in the book, but i am glad because it is the thesis -- direct paragraph in the vote, but i am glad because it is the thesis. the idea that we can solve racial disparities without racism has a history of 40 or 50 years of lis, going back to president johnson. he said we need to deal with these issues with 39 neglect and

not talk about them so much . sobenigh -- with benign neglect i do not know anyone the things we do not need more money for schools, but unless we deal with the specific reasons for some of the disparity, we are solve the. you cannot solve them without talking about the things. >> there are people who say you must be in crack -- be on crack if you believe we live in a racist america. we just elected a black president. >> it would make no more sense to say that than to say in pakistan because benazir bhutto was elected, no -- girls and women do not face sexism. somehow their success meant institutional sexism was gone, so why are we so quick to assume

institutional racism is gone because of the success of barack obama or other people of color. that does not speak to the larger problem with research, most of which has not been talked about in the mainstream press. tavis: let me walk through some individuals and institutions and give you the standard line i know you have heard a thousand times coming from these individuals and institutions and get your take of them. since you mention the mainstream media, it is the mainstream media more than anyone who embraced so quickly this notion of a post-racial america. if i am right, they could not wait to embrace this notion of a post-racial america. why did they do that? >> they did for the reason that a lot of white america -- i am an insider in that club, and

what we have done is a large number of whites have denied the problem, even when it is blatant. you can go back to poland when we all know how profoundly unequal the country is. in 1962 or in 1963 when they ask you think blacks have equal opportunity, 67% said yes? when asked about educational opportunity, 87% of whites said they have fully equal schooling. denial is not new. a lot of people have been willing to claim post-resh realities years ago, but when you have -- post-racism years ago, but when you have a black president, liberals can say the same thing. i think that is the problem. whether it is on the center or the right, there's a widespread

rush to claim the country post- racial, when all the evidence points otherwise. tavis: the country may not be post-racial, but would you agree it is less races. >> it would be an insult to the people who fought and died in the struggle to suggest things have not changed at all, and when i look at john lewis the day of the election and somebody like reverend jackson, fine, but for folks who have been to the struggle so long who say it is a meaningful moment, i am in no position to say they are wrong, but the fact that we have had progress in certain areas does not change the fact that in other areas we have regressed. the federal justice system, when civil rights was passed, too out of three people were white and about 1/3 were of color. that is not because people of color went on a crime spree and

white people shape up. it is because the resources of the justice system were deployed in a disparate way. some things have gotten better. somethings have stayed similar, and some things have gotten worse. >> alexander wrote a wonderful book, and she calls our criminal justice system the new jim crow. is she right about that? >> i think she is right. the way the justice system has operated -- she talks about that after these formal mechanisms were eradicate it, here comes a new mechanism -- the way it is operated, the way the war on drugs is operated has had the consequence. housing discrimination has been illegal since 1968, but it was

only in the 1980's that enforcement was put into law, and even today, 2 million or 3 million cases of racial-based housing problems happen every year, yet when president obama was talking about the housing crisis, what was the one aspect he could not or would not discuss? race-based discrimination, and that is the evidence we're not pose-racial. we did not talk about it. tavis: president obama has, a few times. it is hard to avoid -- has come up a few times. it is hard to avoid. when the president is asked specifically about black unemployment, his answer is a rising tide will lift all boats. that is his answer. you ask him about education in black america, he says education reform will benefit everybody.

we know the disparity between the achievement gap, and his answer is educational reform will benefit everybody. we are asking about the health- care debate. his answer is it will benefit all african americans. you ask him about anything specific, no matter how wide the gap is, and his answer is a universal approach will benefit everybody. >> let's take health care. a lot of people believe the reason there are disparities in terms of health care is just money. there is truth in that, but there is also a falsehood. the fact is even when people of color have jobs and health care, they have worst outcomes. black women with college degrees who had prenatal care altar of the gestation of their children still have worst outcomes for their children then white

children who do not have insurance and do not have prenatal care at all. that is not about money. the research is clear. unequal treatment by doctors. they have implicit biases like everybody, and they do not treat patients equal. the research find the cumulative effect of discrimination is having a health consequence. over time, the stress, the anxiety that is caused by racism has had physiological impact. universal care is good, but it cannot deal with that unless we declare racism of public health crisis. >> white folks said this is not a racist country. we just elected a black president, but there are black people who say -- you have been quite a long time. i have been black a long time.

"he is not the president of black america. he is the president of all of america. he did not change the economy. he did not start the war. you get this sent the matter what the challenges are, that is why we elect a president, but black people are so have been about him being president and so protective of him being maltreated -- we saw how the tea party and other activists with people being spat upon. what do you say to these black people who do not want to push too hard on him because he did not solve these problems? he is doing the best he can. >> protectionism makes perfect sense. there is no president this is a president who inherited a lot of problems, but i take the position that it is not that

we're asking him to do more than any white president would around the issue of civil rights and racism, but he should not be allowed to do less. the reality is if we continue to raise this issue, we can continue to push for an understanding of the way race operates in this country, which leaves him little wiggle room to get out. i do not expect him to stand up and even do what bill clinton did, which is to say we will have a national conversation on race, but i do expect that he will lead on it. what i talked about in the book that i think it's critical is that the politics of this -- the research actually suggests that in fact, racism is more effective when it operates subliminally, when you do not mention it, because of white

americans are able to hide behind a veil of innocence and say it is not about race, then they are able to defend themselves with the ideas they are not doing anything wrong. research has found when people are made to understand the role of racism h -- the role of racism has -- most people do not want to hurt other people, so when you allow them little opportunity to hide behind ignorance, they will be more likely to act in an equitable fashion. the politics actually suggests if we would talk about it more, it might have a positive affect on racial activities as opposed to a backlash of said. the more we do not talk about it, the easier it is for people to say, i am not a part of that. tavis: my retort would be that if your argument is we are not stepping up enough talking about

race, we are accused already by certain people of being tribal, and we are not talking about race. >> that is all the more reason to have the conversation. if you are going to be accused of only having health care as reparations for slavery, when you do not fight back and take on the issue of race directly, it allows the opposition to draw first blood and never have to worry about it. >> it is one thing for the land back and rush limbaugh to say that. -- glenn beck and rush limbaugh to say that. what happens when moderates say that? >> that is why i think it is about what you said. when he is asked about the level of unemployment in america, he

needs to talk about the specific things to be done. obviously, the universal stuff, i did not know anyone on the left to does not believe in universal health care, more money for jobs and schools, but you have to deal with a specificity. a lot of the stock is not even about what the government has to do. the truth is a lot of the stuff we can do to move forward equity we can do on our own. a lot of it is about the conversations we have in our home. a lot is what we do and do not have our teachers say in their schools. a lot is what employers have to do to step up and realize the role of racism continues to play and the subtle bias we all have internalized plays in evaluating how we see college applicants.

if i am going to see this, i am going to try harder to make sure we do not act upon that. the problem is if we do not talk about the internal crises, you cannot check the behavior euan are not aware of. -- you are not aware of. tavis: assess for me how well black leaders are doing the dance with the president. and he is the president, but he is not a member of congress. he is not one of the naacp. he is not running the rainbow coalition. assessed to me how black leaders are stepping up to for advocating their -- abdicating their responsibility to raise these issues no matter who is in the white house. >> i think they are in a tough spot. i know many of those leaders. i know some of the folks who are

involved in this conversation, and they are between these two poles of on the one hand wanted to have influence and believing they will have an audience the way they would not with previous presidents, but at the same time, i think the role of the activist, whether it is a black activist or a white ally, is always to push and remind them the role of the movement in making progress right now. looking on the history of the movement, and what slip through is you could not wait for lyndon johnson to do the right thing. it took people from the outside pushing, even though there were people more favorable to civil rights. they still have to push them. i also want to say it is not only the role of the black leaders. it is important for those of us that say we are about something

to step up as well. if we take more of the burden on our shoulders to raise these issues, it becomes easier for black and brown people to be able to do that without feeling they are acting in a tribal way. tavis: it could be theoretically easier for them to do that. on the other hand, the senate says -- the senate says, i am amazed at as white as you are, you are courageous. you are more courageous than most black people. >> that is very kind of you. >> i am not being kind. >> it is also true i have the luxury of being able to say this. when i say the things i say, obviously i have the luxury of having the incentives of being taken more seriously. >> the truth is not offering to be told because you are afraid

of repercussions. >> that is why it is important for folks to step up. it is important for president obama to tell the truth, because the truth is what the real leaders sell. the first time most of us became familiar with barack obama was 2004 in boston. he gives that keynote speech, and the biggest applause line was, it is not a black american and a white america and a latino america -- it is the united states of america. that is the same year fed research came out from mit and the university of chicago which found out job applicants with white names for 50% more likely to be called back. i am sure you read the study. -- i am sure he read the study, yet he still maintain this notion that we had in fact achieve that. he knows better, and i think

over time the more you say that, the more you'll allow white americans who have already been senile and some black people -- already in the nile, you allow them to do that, and i think that is dangerous -- already in denial, you allow them to do that, and i think that is dangerous. tavis: how you convince white americans to address these issues when they feel they did their part by pulling the lever. i did my part. >> some of my best friends are black. really it is practical interest. look at the housing meltdown. here is what happens when you do not deal with racism. 15 years ago was the first time i started reading material about the predatory loans in black and brown neighborhoods. nobody wanted to talk about it

15 years ago. why? their attitude was, it is not my neighborhood. 15 years later, what do we find out? when you allow eckert -- inequity to hit, it comes back to people. now we are looking a meltdown that is cause not just by the regulation but also because we did not pay attention to the warning signs a decade -- because a decade and a half ago there were only and other folks neighborhoods. if we do not deal with racial disparities, eventually that is going to affect white teenagers, to be reagan if we do not deal with inadequate health care, -- affect white teenagers, too. if we do not deal with inadequate health care, everybody is eventually going to be affected by it. >> there is data about these

disparities even in the era of obama. i think in the words of dr. king, he often said you cannot legislate morality. you can cite the studies all day long. the data is there. the evidence is there. if it was just about evidence, we would be moving on this. it is about more than evidence. it is about making a connection, because you cannot legislate morality. how do we get traction? >> here is one of the positive things i learned. the evidence says most people do not think of themselves as racist, and when you force people to confront the gap between their aspirations of who they want to be and who they are, most people will move in the direction of their aspirations, so i tell a story

in the boat. an african-american who bought his house, and the klan grand that city. a white mob gathered outside the home. eventually, someone fired a gun. they were all brought up on murder charges. clarence offended that black family, went up before a white jury and told them, all of you are prejudiced. you know it and i know it. he called them down. that is counter intuitive in the 1925 reminding people they do not like black people. in spite of that, he said i expect you to do the right thing. he was calling them to rise. i think of that could happen in the 1920's, if we are bold enough to challenge america to rise, we can solve some of the

problems. tavis: his name is tim wise. his book is called "colorblind." i highly recommend that text. good to have you on the program. that is our show for tonight. until next time, keep the faith. ♪ >> for more informatio>> join ut easton ellis. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us all live better.

>> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance -- working to improve financial literacy in the economic empowerment that comes with it. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television]