tavis: good evening. first up, a conversation with dr. martin luther king's attorney clarence b. jones. he wrote a recent piece about president obama that has generated a lot of buzz. he should consider mounting a primary challenge in 2012. also tonight, a conversation with the legendary talk-show host dick cavett. his shows has been the subject of his recent column in "the new york times." clarence b. jones and talk show

legend dick cavett, coming up now. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference -- >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment, one conversation at a time. >> nationwide is on your side >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- tavis: clarence b. jones served

as all longtime counsel in part on the speech writer for dr. martin luther king. he is a scholar at stanford now. his text is called "behind the dream," the making of a speech that transformed the nation. >> a good to see you, my friend. in januaryll be back when we get to dr. king's birthday. but i wanted you on tonight because of the furor you unleashed this week on "the huffington post." you need to go and read it. essentially, what you do is to py lovinvlgly that rogessives might have to

consider running a candidate in the primary against president obama in 2012. the last time something like this happened, jimmy carter and ted kennedy. what did you think was going to happen when you wrote this piece? >> first of all, it was difficult to write. i drafted on a saturday evening, last saturday evening and i read it and said, you know, i do not know i want to post this. i will let it sit. i got up the next morning and listened to a couple of talk shows, frank richards and i said, you have to post this. the piece is not about being a super critic or punishing obama. it is about to accountability -- it is about accountability. i thought back to the night he was elected. i remembered of being in the home of dr. claiborne carson and

stanford university. several people were moved. people were crying. someone asked me, you are crying. did you ever think you would live long enough to see an african-american president? no. but i said, i am not crying for obama's victory. i am crying for those people are not allowed to see this victory, because i know the road that so many people have traveled that made his election as the 44th president possible. so i was crying for goodman -- and for jimmy lee jackson, and crying for all those people, some known in some unknown, but made it possible, who made it

possible for you, my brother, and for me to be where we are today. there is a connection. so i am thinking that yes, obama african-run as an american. he did not say, elect me because i am black. but you know what? there is an indisputable fact that he cnanoannot deny and that while i did not vote for him, maybe some people voted for him because he was black, i voted for him because he was good -- as a result of being president, i hated to put it down, and when i see shots of him in the oval office and a bust of dr. king. he carries a

responsibility different than any other president would have. it is because he has the responsibility, it is like when you have a good friend of yours, a member of your family addicted to drugs. you have to shake him and say, you know. i think obama needs tough love right now. he needs people to talk to him and to write about him out of tough love. tavis: but saying that he needs tough love is a different thing than saying, right now that there ought to be a primary challenge against him. >> i understand. let me finish. part of that tough love is that , since he is reluctant to have joined to some -- drawn lines in the sand, i think those people

that elected him will have to draw the line in the sand. what i thinking is to say, we have to think the unthinkable. mounting a democratic challenge to obama. not as a form of punishment but as a form of accountability, as a form of martialing those forces that enabled him to be elected, to get him to pay attention. to get him to understand that he has got to address their concerns. tavis: everybody who supported him, who voted for him, who campaigned for him two years ago said they were doing so not because it was black, but because it was the better candidate. he was capable. he did not have a lot of experience, but he had good judgment. he said judgment.

everybody gives this young individual of illinois, barack obama, the chance to be president with all of these hopes and aspirations placed upon him. the argument was then that he is so smart, so erudite. "oprah" winfrey kept saying, i supported because he is brilliant. how can he be that smart and not understand that he is decimating his base? you cannot think that you're the first person to bring to his attention that his base is being decimated by the things he is doing or not doing. how does he not get that? >> you can be smart and you can be brilliant, but if you do not have a clear understanding of the components of political power, and how you use and respond to political power, you could be the brightest person

there is. obama is only as good as -- no matter how smart he is, if he has a connection to the base, the largest part of the segment of the election that elected him. to be smart, running in the abstract is irrelevant -- brilliant in the abstract is irrelevant. governing is about political leadership. governing in this country is about political leadership based on a base of power. we do not have time. i think that the progressives, the progressive movement, i think we were asleep at the switch before the midterm elections, ok? i am surprised that a part of the political process that i am familiar with, i never thought that something called the tea party would out maneuver the

progressive forces. but, my friend, that is exactly what happened. and so that -- i realize that for me to complain about obama --er a large of the part large part of the people that got elected. they would say he did not have the political power that he once had because you lost the house. you act on the basis, you make an assessment on the reality, the politics you have any given moment. and i think as clarence b. jones, there are certainly people all around him, advises that are smarter than i am. the question is -- if you are talking about being more than a one-term president, then you have to

decide that you will take some political risk in order to consolidate your base and to amass your power. otherwise, maybe he made a decision he only wants to run for one term. but if he wants to run for two terms, then there are certain things he must do to make that possible. tavis: one of things that got attention is suggesting that a lot and in the sand has to be drawn and the time may be now to consider a third-party candidate against him, part of that is the fact they you were a part of dr. martin luther king's inner circle. because obama quote dr. king so often. what kind of response have you gotten from other people inside of king's circle? >> i have not yet had any response. as i said in the article, lyndon johnson on many social justice,

economic issues, was one of the greatest presidents we've ever had. it was not easy in 1968 for those of us are around dr. king. to break wisconsin. we knew that once he publicly opposed johnson it would create a firestorm. tavis: on the vietnam question. not expedientght, or popular or plays to one's vanity, but if it is right, you have to do it. maybe someone will say, mr. jones, being president, you have to be pragmatic. pragmatism has some limits. do you know what they are? morality. tavis: i could do this for

hours. i still feel like i have not done justice to the article. if you go to "the huffington post," you can read the article that clarence b. jones wrote. found its way from the internet onto the pages of the new york times. people are talking about what will happen with progressives in 2012, given the disappointment that many have, particularly with the president caving in on the bush era tax cuts. >> it is not about anger or punishing. it is about accountability. it was really about when yo ulovu love someone, you speak to them. you hold them accountable. tavis: up next, legendary talk show host dick cavett. stay with us.

tavis: welcome dick cavett back to this program. he is a three-time emmy winner. if you read this book, you know that he is far more proud of being a nebraska state gymnastic champion. i get love for that? >> who haven they say that the winner, i say get to gymnastics. -- when they say emmy winner. tavis: his new book is called "talk show -- off screen secrets." it's an honor. >> i am honored because you had beyond three years ago. you had be right back on the three years later. i have been waiting outside for two years. those are blogs, i guess.

i do not know the difference between a blog and a column, but since there were written for the online reader, one of the great funds about that is you get to read the reactions. as soon as the column appears, then the letters start coming in. you know what is amazing, the number of people who write well, intelligently, have something to say, compose a beautiful paragraph, who are not in the profession of riding out there. there must be something good about american education. though few people can think about what it is at times. i do not just mean the ones that say -- they are good and bad. you wrote a column on obesity. you hate me because i'm fat. goodbye forever, mr. cavett.

[laughter] so many intelligent people can write. tavis: what got you interested in putting yourself out there in this public way? >> i was not clever enough to have that interest. the phone rang and somebody said, the times wants to know if you would write a column. i said, their op-ed page is full of good riders. they said, try it for august, two a week. first three were a snap. fourth one i had to dig. by five i thought i had said everything i had to say. apparently, i got going. tavis: i am trying to figure out what the common denominator is for what it takes to get on your hit list.

>> the hit list. tavis: karl rove, cheney -- >> i don't recognize any of these names. [laughter] tavis: sarah palin, you have taken some shots occurred >> i have never met sarah palin. tavis: i love your line. "she does not appear to have a first language." >> you know how you hold your breath when someone quotes you. my line to norman mailer always gets misquoted. he made me furious, and gore vidal furious, and i did not realize -- you might be able to identify -- what could make you angry on the air in front of an audience as the host. it would be norman mailer

saying, why don't you just read the next question of the question sheet? and heard myself say, why do not fold it five ways and put it where the moon does not shine? this got the longest laugh of mmy crews. "cavett, is that something you had it for years? norman was not happy. it gets misquoted. people think it, why don't you fold it five ways and stick it -- that would be vulgar. tavis: [laughter] but you read books. >> the biggest mistake i made

during a talk show is i thought you had to read the book. it helps. i read 435 page books and had a guest on for eight minutes. there went by weekend. it's good to be acquainted with the book. tavis: i read the good ones. yesterday was the 30th anniversary of the death of john lennon and you talk about -- >> he must it -- you must've been a tiny boy. tavis: i was 15. >> 15. old enough to know what had happened carr. when i got the lennons on it made everybody jealous. there were just wonderful. i guess john and i got off on the right foot, because he said

to me, yet the only halfway intelligent talk show on television-- you have the only halfway intelligent talk show on television. and i said, why would you want to be on a halfway intelligent talk show life? from then on, we were good friends. the upshot, the one that has caused an item on youtbuube to e entitled that the knicks and administration wants revenge on the dick cavett show was that john was being deported. the co-conspirator was trying to deport him -- there's a still of nixon and his -- fiddle. tavis: it's pbs. >> h.r. haldeman. what is cavett? he fills every show --

leader of to see the the free world, most powerful man in america, cavett, how can we screw him? one of nixon's wittier moments. how to screw me. he screwed my entire staff. i learned years later by two people talking quinn sedul, weru audited? tavis: everybody got audited. >> one of his favorite hobbies was illegally using a irs. tavis: for a book that is called talk show, it raises this question for me, and you could not have to call names, and please cannot give my name is under hit list. when you are as regarded as a

talk-show host is to have ben, and you are as good as you are, how do you watch talk shows? is it difficult to watch stuff that you think is so not good? >> it is, in a way, yeah. partly because, i am mainly watching other people's talk shows. not my dvd's of my talk show. i hope they do this. i would have done this. johnny carson said once, it's gonna be armed forces radio for dick. we were very, very good friend. he said he was worried. it was during a break. do you ever forget? i said, there are so many people. no, richard.

i mean that night. he had forgotten all four guests when his store man asked me who was on. -- his doorman asked him who was on. i had one guest. they ask me, who was on? i said, they sat right here. it took me about 50 minutes to come up with the obscure name lucille ball. the you that does the show is not exactly the you that people need out there in your home -- meet out there in your home. tavis: the thing i have taken away from watching your dvd's is i don't know there's anybody in television who has ever been a more generous listener than you are. a very generous listener.

>> that is the key word. it is the beginning. it was the hardest ithing when you begin. it is a discipline. but with five people bugging you and within digestion and a lack of sleep from doing guest notes, it can be tough. you seem to have no problem with this. tavis: you would have never ever known it from watching you all these years. >> it passed after a time. do you ever get a nasty not from the public? did you ever get this one after having jane fonda on. dear dick cavett, you little sawed off faggot communist shrimp! i wrote back, i am not sawed off. tavis: [laughter] that's why we love dick cavett.

for more on my conversation, go to my website at pbs.org. his new book is called "dick cavett, talk show confrontations." i have not scratched the surface on the brilliance of his commentary. i am sure you can tell that you want to read this and did it. >> you have a future in television. tavis: i'll take that from you. until next time, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org tavis: the join me next time for conversation with oscar-winning filmmaker danny boyle on "127

hours." >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference -- >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment, one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.