tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. first up tonight, a conversation with the renowned surgeon and bestselling author dr. atul gawande. his latest book, "the checklist manifesto," is about avoiding mistakes and our life. also, actress blythe danner. the chicken dc-9 and the new film, "waiting for forever -- she can be seen in the new film, "waiting for forever." >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i'm james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports

tavis smiley. with every question and answer, nationwide insurance is happy to help tavis improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: dr. atul gawande is a staff member at the brigham and women's hospital and also a staff writer of "the new yorker," and the author of the book, "the checklist manifesto." he joins us from boston. tell me what it is that has

happened in our lives over the decades, the centuries, that make checklists seoul important these days to get things right. >> our biggest struggle in this new century has become complexity. we have discovered so much new knowledge in science, how to build organizations, how to build buildings that we are now struggling with how to actually use that knowledge well. i started digging into how people in aviation or skyscraper construction got to be good at what they do. and what they use, an addition to loss of training and technology, the core tool is the simple checklist. tavis: what about people who think checklists are so rudimentary, adolescent, "i don't need a checklist to get through my day"? >> we have thought of the

checklist to dumb things down, for people at the bottom of the totem pole. we don't think of it as being for the very top people because they know what they're doing, and you could not see a greater example then in surgery. the idea that we pull out a checklist for doing an operation seems crazy. but following the lead of what people in other industries have done, we started trying it in surgery. we designed a checklist, worked with boeing to make a smart checklist rather than one that just dumb things down and having a team where everybody knows each other's name, where the surgeon has the goals of the operation, and executing on the checklist we found we reduced the chances of complications and deaths by more than one-third in our trial in eight hospitals. tavis: so they are a matter of

life and death in some instances? >> they clearly demonstrate that to be the case. what turns out to be the story is when you use a checklist, you are expressing a certain set of values. they are humility, understanding that you can make mistakes the matter how well trained or smart you are -- your brain will not hold at all -- second, team work. no. 3, the belief in discipline. it turns out to work, not just in surgery, but in a wide variety of fields, and we are only just now starting to take it seriously. tavis: i am a believer in checklists, so i am playing devil's advocate, so what about the notion that checklists make us intellectually lazy, kind of like our cell phones. we have numbers programmed into our phone. you take somebody's phone away and asked them somebody's number who is close to them, they cannot recall the number because we store everything in the

phone. that said, why do checklists not, as you see it, make a sleazy in the long run? -- make us lazy in the long run? >> if it comes things down, it turns off the brain and now it is poorly designed. having a checklist is not the same as having a recipe. a pilot and an airplane, when the use a checklist, it is not a recipe for how to fly. it is the top 10 things they have to do to make sure they have not forgotten everything. and the operating room or other fields where they used checklists, when there are effective is because they're asking people, have you thought about, say, in the medical room, all the major concerns for the patient, allergies, whether you are operating on the right side of the body. that is not a recipe, it is a series of questions that can make experts get great performance rather than just a mediocre performance. tavis: is there a distinction in

your mind between eight to do list. people say they have to do lists, is there a difference in your mind between a to do list and check list? >> there is a fundamental difference, which is that the checklist, one that is going to be something used every time, has a kind of "do not go beyond" phase. one of the things that makes a checklist work if you have a pause point. if you find there is a item missed on your checklist, you will not move on until you fix it. a. to do list can be all of the things that you want to do, but how often do you end up skipping things? the checklist is about the things that you cannot miss. tavis: i am a believer in checklists. i operate off the schedule every day that my assistant prepares

for me every day, mike to do this, things i have to do today, i have to be in the studio at this time for radio or tv, have a meeting here. i have the to do list, but they also have a checklist i operate off of. i have found, curious on your tape, for those who think chess list -- who think checklists are silly, i find on any given day, i get more done than a lot of my friends, a lot of people i know because i use the checklist in tandem with things i have to get done that day. >> this is fundamental, one of the core things you are experiencing, which i had not experienced until i tried to checklist in the operating room, is not let your brain focus on the dumb stuff. the rest assured when you have gone through the checklist that the dumb stuff is taken care of and you could focus on the higher level things that you

have to think hard about. the u.s. air flight, the miracle on the hudson, where captain sully sullenberger art, who piloted the airplane down, they used checklists that allow them to know that his co-pilot was going to be handling trying to restart the engines and run through a bunch of things he did not have to worry about, and that man he could focus -- that meant he could focus on the one thing to checklist could not answer, where do i land this airplane? >tavis: so they allow us to do things right or more things right? >> it is a combination. if it lets you do things, it lets you be more quick in making sure that all the key things that you have to think about happen, it gets the team together when you have a checklist for the whole team, and it lets you do more things right. one of the striking things in madison is that -- in medicine

worth people were not only having lower complication rates from surgery but finishing the day center, less overtime. -- people were finishing the day sooner, less overtime. tavis: what do you make of the fact that a book that has as its message out the simple notion of living by a checklist, how does a book that simple in a very complex world become a best seller? >> i have been as gratified and surprised as anybody else. partly, look, i start off with a guy who gets stabbed in the belly at a halloween party, so i am trying to attract people and understand how people cope with incredible complexity in medicine or building skyscrapers are flying airplanes. it is a hard sell. why should you care about checklists? that is not sexy. it does not necessarily grab

people, until you realize coping with complexity has become our biggest struggle and the 21st century. tavis: you referenced a couple times, if you have a good checklist. how do you don't if it is good compared with bad? >> there are a couple ways to know. one is, do people actually use it? people can make a checklist, and if you make the checklist, you start putting every single thing on there and you bring it to the team and nobody uses it, or you don't use it yourself. that is not useful or good. the second sign is if the checklist and up distracting people from the job they need to be doing -- if it ends up distracting people from the job they need to do. it is paying attention. does it help you get better results? tavis: is it your belief that as a society we are getting better embracing the notion of using

checklists to get things done and done right? >> i can watch the news and become depressed almost every day. when you see the oil rig disaster that happened, for example, in the gulf, what shocked me was they did not have a plan in place for how to deal with a fire erupting that allowed a team of people who never faced before to say, here are the top five things we have to accomplish. we see that over and over again. and yet there are places, like watching what happened in the shooting and tucson, ariz., where the first responders had their checklists and manage to be able to take a group of more than a dozen people who had been shot, bring them to one hospital, get them to the right place at the right time, and save lives like was not even possible a decade ago. tavis: we all know that life is complex.

the new book in paperback, from dr. atul gawande, is called "the checklist manifesto." up next, emmy-winning and tony winning actress blythe danner. pleased to welcome the life danner to the program. in addition to her role in "little fockers," she could also be seen in the new film "waiting for forever." here is a scene. >> oh, my baby. oh, he's really hard. you look so wonderful. your eyes are so cleaer and bright.

you look so happy. >> i do? you -- you do, too. >> oh. i missed you. i miss you so much. so much. come on. tavis: what did you think of the clip? >> if i could only see it. i love to play these characters who don't really know who they are. she seems wacky. this film is delightful. it is a romantic comedy, and rachel is my daughter. there is a wonderful english boy, who plays this charlie chaplin-esque character, searching for his long-lost girlfriend, and richard jenkins and i.

they are fully drawn characters, and i love the fact that it is, and sad -- it is comic and sad. i love the challenge of creating the character in trying to flesh it out. tavis: you're first, it struck me immediately, that you like playing characters that are not always sure who they are. what did you mean by that? >> i think sometimes there is so much that is one-dimensional. i love to work with directors and producers who give you the freedom to kind of falter and be ambiguous. it gives you a chance to flush out and search. to me, the fun of acting is reacting, which is what i have always like to do. acting is what you get from your

fellow actors. it gives you the grist for the mill. i'd just like that way of working. tavis: i only ask this because i saw you speaking about this. the comment that he made, fare freezing, at your age -- paraphrasing, at your age, you don't get a chance to play three-dimensional characters or romantic characters. could you expand on that? >> i don't get a chance to play the great roles on film. i have never been an a-list actor, so i am very grateful for these roles because they are challenging. they are quite fond, and also actors, anyway, i feel i am more myself when i'm acting. although when i'm older i have less of it, but i have always

felt more solid when i'm in a role than in life. i felt troubled like that until i heard maddie smith -- maggie smith say that. she said she felt so much more like herself when she was acting in bad in life. i think i am in good company. tavis: what do you make of that? >> i think actors are often caught up in a world that is not concrete. we are not greatt doing -- my husband used to say that i was not a concrete thinker. what is that supposed to be? tavis: distracted? >> yeah, and thank god he was not, because he was the heart of the family and kept us on track. i think acting allows people who are doubtful about everything to find solid ground. tavis: you keep saying things i

want to explore. >> i keep opening weird little doors. tavis: when you said a moment ago that you have never been an a-list actor, that came off your mouth with ease. you seem comfortable with that. there are folks who want to be on that list. tell me your viewpoint on the balance of your career and not having ben aen an a-list actor. >> for me it was great because i have always had kind of and anonymity. tavis: unlike your daughter. >> and when i am with her, i see what her husband, chris, they go through. i think, let them live. they spend so much energy trying to do that, sometimes it is hard for them.

they're trying to find privacy so much of the time, and for me it was always i loved stage. that is still my first love. what i would come back from doing a broadway show in coming here, the lady at the grocery store would say, ms. danner, how was the shopping in new york? they did not even know i was an actress. i thought that was great. tavis: you and your husband, which we will talk about more, your daughter, we all know, is an a-list actor, has little privacy these days. u.s. her mother that she was going through this. -- u.s. her mother that she was going through this. did you encourage that, did you discourage that? >> she handles it very well.

she said to me the other day, mom, everybody thinks they have the right to invade us. she said, i did not seek this. i wanted to be a wonderful actress. she grew up in a family where her mother and father both worked in show business, and she loved that, but she did not set out to be a big star. she says she gets so annoyed when people say, well, you should have expected it. i think she copes with it very well. it is almost an impossible thing, you know? tavis: you mentioned your husband. i want to come to this, not just because of his work in this business, but he said he was the rock in your family. tell me how the family moves forward with a husband or father is gone and he is the rock? >> everybody who has been through this knows it is not easy, and it is nothing that ever leaves you.

maya angelou wrote a wonderful poem about this. i get letters still from kids, people who helped. he got the first diversity award from the directors guild. he was the first person i think you had a nursery for secretaries, and helped a lot of them become directors and producers, and all the guys on "the white shadow." and thomas carter. tavis: denzel washington. >> denzel washington, who actually said that he really gave everybody a chance, every single time things were offered. all the young kids in "the white shadow," a lot of them became directors.

he was very proud of the diversity award. tavis: what made him so open to diversity, inclusion, balance? >> he grew up and not a wealthy family and a wealthy town, and he saw people being treated in ways that he did not always approve of. he would talk to the men at the studios exactly the same as he would the head of the studio. of course, that did not always with a hammer -- tavis: i could imagine. >> people loved about him that you knew what you were getting. he did not mince words. if he made fun and tease you, he really liked you. he was great. tavis: tell me about the ongoing

work with cancer. >> the oral cancer foundation is one of the top 10 of the nonprofit cancer foundations, and bruce help minority so much. we have gone into towns for people who have not been able to afford the testing. we're also trying to get the message out that oral cancer is growing, really, extremely high numbers of young people. we're trying to encourage people, prepubescent children, girls and boys, to get the inoculation against hpv. hpv-16 is also found in cervical cancer, and they're finding this is growing because of oral sex and sexual contact. we have to get the word out. there has to be a lot more done.

everybody should know about this. tavis: i want to circle back to the movie, the title of the movie. that are so many things in this conversation that i could touch upon relative to the title. when you saw the script and the title, "waiting for forever," how did that speak to you? >> i have to say the producers, it was funny, because we have been waiting for forever, but it is now finally out. i thought it was a catchy, good title. also, if i could, please, tavis, if i could quickly land on the point of this cancer not only growing from sexual contact but also because of pollutants. i was so happy to hear obama say in his speech last week that they're really going to push back and not allow anything that interferes with the help of our

children and grandchildren of anyone in the country. the public just does not know how much pressure is being brought down upon the epa to weaken the laws. the lobbyists are hitting like crazy for mercury and so many pollutants, so, please, everyone should keep on top of this and write their congress people and let them know that the health of our children and all of us is so important. tavis: so the new film, "waiting for forever." there is a new generation but who have come to know you because of ben stiller. >> it is so funny, on the subway in new york, have people who say, are you the mommy up -- yes, i am the mother. it that seems to be my claim to fame. tavis: you are ok with it?

>> i am fine with it. tavis: the new film is "waiting for forever." blyther, great to have you on the program. at a tremendous honor for me. tavis: a tremendous honor for me also. that is our show for tonight. thank you for watching, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a look at the state of the west technology industry with david pogue. that is next time. we will see you then. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i'm james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and answer,

nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--