>> good evening from los angeles. a conversation with pulitzer prize-winning annette gordon- reed. she became the first african- american to in -- african- american to win for "the hemingses of monticello." also tonight, a conversation with rhythm-and-blues singer kem. he just kicked off a u.s. tour in support of his latest cd, " intimacy." >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference -- >> thank you. >> you help us all live better.

>> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment, one conversation at a time. >> nationwide is on your side >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> annette gordon-reed is a professor at harvard who became the first african-american to win the pulitzer prize for her book "the hemingses of monticello." the new book is part of the american president series.

good to have the on this program. >> good to be here. >> my first question was going to be, if johnson was such a bad president, one of book about andrew johnson? before i get to that, let's go to my man, frederick douglass, who you quote in this book. these are his thoughts about his first meeting with andrew johnson. there are moments in the lives of most men when the doors of their souls are opened and unconsciously to themselves, their true characters may be read by the observant eye. it was at such an instant when i caught a glimpse of the real nature of this man, which all subsequent developments proved true. outstanding -- i was standing in the crowd when mr. lincoln touched mr. johnson and pointed me out to him. the first expression which came to his face and which i think was the true index of his heart was one of bitter contempt and aversion. seeing that i had observed him,

he tried to assume a more freely appearance, but it was too late. it is useless to close the door when all within had been seen. his first glance was the front of the man. the second was a bland and sickly smile of the demagogue. i turned to mrs. dorsey in said, whatever andrew johnson may be, he is no friend of our race. that is what frederick douglass thought of andrew johnson. tell me more. >> well, here actually read johnson. frederick douglass was a brilliant man, and he could see that this was a man who did not have the best interests of african-americans at heart. it is a terrible thing to think that this guy was ahead of reconstruction. the question was what do we do with four million african- american slaves who were set free. his answer was, send them back to as near slavery as possible. >> was johnson that of his own doing are not doing, as it were,

or is he regarded as being such a bad precedent because he followed a guy named abraham lincoln? >> is both things. it would be hard to follow lincoln. in surveys of presidents, johnson is usually in the bottom five and lincoln is number one. it is quite a shock for people. he was not really equipped to do what had to be done for the nation at this very, very critical time. so it was both things. following a popular president, a person who was popular in our time, and historians looking at what he botched, was reconstruction, and realizing that this was the wrong man at this very, very critical moment. >> there was great debate, this is not about whether you like or load or disagree with sarah palin. there was debate about her lack

of ability to beat president. johnson was such a bad president, how did he get so close to the office in the first place? >> johnson had worked his way up from nothing to become a very high official in tennessee. he was the only southern senator who remained loyal to the union, so he stayed in the union. lincoln beat him because he was a war governor, and lincoln could signal to the south, it is possible for some sort of reconciliation. i don't hate the south. i picked this person from your area, all border state. this means we could work together. lincoln was always trying to signal even in the midst of a war that this had to be wrapped up at some place and bring the confederacy back in. it was his idea to say here is a southerner who can remain loyal and a part of my administration. so that is how it happened. obviously none of these people

knew what was going to happen not long after his inauguration, and this guy would be president. >> how would you describe johnson's views on black people, frederick douglass is point of view notwithstanding? we both know that lincoln's view on black folk involved over time. >> certainly prejudice against black people was the tenor of the times, but johnson was particularly harsh. people said this guy is even too much for us. he said openly that everyone knows the black race -- the african race, is inferior to the white race, and we should try to bring them up, but when we bring them up we should bring ourselves up so we always maintained that gap. he was a white supremacist and open about that. he said it should be a white man's government. you can imagine when you have reconstruction and people are saying we have to bring political rights to black people in the south, and he is saying no, the south should be a white

man's government and it will stay that way as long as i have anything to do about it. that is really what it was. he thought blacks existed basically to serve five people, and he bitterly resisted any kind of push to create some sort of political rights or citizenship for african- americans. >> i know that lincoln evolved over time, and some would say he really did not free the slaves because he wanted to. >> he needed soldiers, black soldiers contributed to the union effort. >> i raise that because i am curious as to whether or not lincoln was aware of johnson's racist views when he picked him, or did he pick him and then after picking him, lincoln's views evolved over time? >> lincoln did not know johnson very well. he really picked him because of his position as the only prominent southerner who remained loyal to the union. he focused mainly on talking

about punishing traders, whites had gone into the confederacy. he really did not talk very much about blacks until it became apparent that the radical republicans -- never radical in the sense that wanted black people to have rights. he was there talking about punishing whites, but he really did not get into blacks until he thought, wait a minute, they are trying to do something with african-americans here and i am going to try to stop it. >tavis: how badly did johnson is his marc? for all that could have happened, and what should have happened during this time, he missed the mark how badly? >> he missed it very badly, from our perspective.

for a good amount of time, johnson was thought of as a good president. right after reconstruction when the sort of southern, romantic view of what the old south was about, people saw him as someone who stood against the horror of negro rule. he was seen as a hero. it did not dawned on people, this guy screwed up. this was terrible. the reconstruction was not as historians portrayed it. he is not a hero. that was the beginning in the crack in the facade in the 19th and early 20th century, with johnson as he wrote. then other white historians began to reassess it. as we came to the civil rights movement, his reputation really chromatid. he missed the mark, and thurgood marshall said at one. , not talking specifically about johnson, but about

reconstruction, if things had gone the way they should have gone, the plan to bring blacks into citizenship, to get land for blacks, for the freed men to work their own land instead of being sharecroppers, a lot of the stuff we went through in the 1950's and 1960's, would not have taken place, because we could have started this process back then. so we lost 100 years, essentially. tavis: thurgood marshall talks about it. king does not call this -- call andrew johnson by name. he was talking about that bad check, the check mark to insufficient funds. king is building up to something in the speech, but he is going all the way back to this era. >> he is going back to jefferson and the declaration. reconstruction, the civil war at the time, as lincoln said, is a

sort of rebirth. king clearly thought that there were these opportunities that were missed. that is why we were where we were when he said those words. tavis: you said this put this up -- said something else a call my attention. in respect to historians, if they are dealing with the facts, and the facts are the facts, then how, over time, the historians have a different read on johnson? how at one time is he a great president, and a century later, he is a horrible president, how this in -- had a historians do that? >> it is an art and science. different sensibilities. people have different views about things. there was a time when blacks were not thought of as human beings. you can read it in the way historians wrote, they were writing about people who work subhuman. as attitudes change, people began to ask questions of the material.

those who wrote about reconstruction began to ask different things and say wait a minute, these are people we are talking about here. we are not talking about cattle, and their interests are important to us. we are sitting around out trying to grapple with all these issues. this guy was among the people who helped put us behind. tavis: what is there finally for a president obama or any president coming after him, to learn about not missing your moment historically? >> i think presidents or the sum total of all their experiences. i think that president obama and most presidents dealing in the modern era have the benefit of the civil rights movement, all different types of engagement with the population about rights and what the president needs as a leader in those areas. i think looking to history is imported to sort of not repeat

the mistakes that people made in the past, and that is the value of history. i think that obama, from what i know of him, is a very careful student of history and understands the role that he has to play there. the terrible thing about johnson is that it is not that one man controls everything. but the president is a symbol. he exercises real power but also symbolic power. to have this person at the moment when they are trying to transform black lives to get up and say essentially, no, hold the line against that, he played a pivotal role in setting as back. tavis: it is part of the american president series written by professor annette gordon-reed. but next, grammy nominated r&b singer kem. stay with us.

tavis: pleased to have you back on this program. he has just kicked off a u.s. tour in support of his grammy nominated c. d., "intimacy." here now, some of the video for "what would you stay." ♪ ♪ ♪ tavis: you make a chart on a brother. [laughter] why do you do this to us?

>> i don't know, man. i am just being me. i am just doing what i believe i was sent here to do. tavis: i am going to cook your dinner and do this. >> there are also some things on the new album that will help you a lot. human touch. tavis: thank you, i appreciate that. we will put it on no. 5 in just repeat. it is a beautiful song, though. where do you get this stuff? your lyrics are really very powerful, and the melodies, it is a gift. >> it is. i saw ne-yo on the show talking about the melody is everything.

i am a songwriter first. when i first started out, i didn't even want to sing. i was writing songs for my peers. i feel very fortunate to be able to communicate personally the things that are right. tavis: there many artists in this town who start out first and foremost as writers and somewhere along away become vocalist. where did the transformation come, how did it come for you from rider to performer? >> i think because i started getting positive feedback from its, and trying to translate those ideas to other people. i am not as well just sing this, you know? who better to communicate it if you have the facility? tavis: the sound on this project is a bit different than the

first two. what do you treat that to? >> the acoustic piano played a large role in the sound of this record. i bought a piano and it changed everything. [laughter] tavis: you have been writing songs of this time without a piano? >> you can use the piano, the, all sound. i have used that on records, but the acoustic piano is a whole different thing. the texture of it, sitting down to write songs on that is a whole different approach. usually i would use -- my vocals would sit a certain way with the rose. using an acoustic piano is like everything is there. it is intimate. there is no place to hide.

lyrically, or vocally, there is no place to hide. tavis: i did not think your music could be more intimate. >> definitely. interestingly enough, why would you stay? it is so different to wear it when i first did "why would you stay" it was just going to be acoustic. i was going to do the piano and have acoustic strings. i recorded it that way, and i didn't like it and i put it on the shelf and was not going to use it. i have a co-producer on this record. he was in detroit and heard the song and said that we take it back to l.a. and sit with it for a minute and let's see if there is another approach. he is single-handedly responsible for it even being on the record. tavis: and it is a huge hit.

i find myself laughing all the time with the journey that song stake. when i say journey, i mean from being written or have written or thrown in the trash and pull back out of the trash, recorded, put on the shelf and taken off the show, never released, and it comes out 30 years later. it would go through all that to get out one track that everybody loves? >> it is all about the song, at the end of the day. i tried to serve the song and make sure that the listener is satisfied. you are talking about the quality of music. so a lot goes into it. each record so far has evolved. i am not afraid to go to those places, as long as it is the truth of where i am.

when i first started out, we are trying to emulate tony toni toni and prints. we were trying to emulate what was happening. my friends or asking me, why are you writing these love songs? we are trying to get a record deal. [laughter] there is something to be said about staying true to what it is that you do. tavis: in that regard, you do acknowledge that your fans are very clear on what a camp signature sound is, and you are ok that we know that. >> i am cool with it. tavis: every time i talk to you, it is impossible to begin and end a conversation without talking about your sobriety. so many people watching are struggling with this. how long has it been? >> 20 years. we both celebrate 20 years.

well, for me is 20 years of sobriety, for you is 20 years of something else. [laughter] tavis: please clear that up. you are celebrating 20 years of sobriety and i am celebrating 20 years in the broadcast business, and most of that it appears i was not sober on many of those conversations. 20 years, how do you stay sober? have you engaged in sobriety for 20 years? >> i am surrounded by a lot of good people who have gone before me, who understand how to do that and who i can lean on. i am very grateful that i've had success at this stage in my life, as opposed to in the early years.

we would not even be having this conversation. it has been a trip. tavis: but you are in a business, and now that you are so successful in this business, you don't have to tell me. if you are kem, you can get anything you want, anywhere you want it to you don't even have to pay for it anymore. they are offering new stuff for free now because they just want to be in your presence. have you navigate that terrain? >> i was just having a conversation with someone about this. when you are living a certain way, there are certain things that don't even come into your circle. you know what i mean? everybody in my organization is aware of how i live my life. i have never been at a party where there has been drugs there, to my knowledge. we are not even rolling like

that. and people who know that you don't live that way don't even bring it into your periphery. so it is cool. i have lived that part of my life already. i have done that. i have been to jail, i have been hospitalized and lived on the streets. i have had nothing. i have had that experience, so let's move on to the next thing. tavis: i would imagine having hit records as a whole lot better. >> going out on the road with music's old child. tavis: a nice line up. i bumped into her in the airport the other day. >> the music is incredible also. 27, 28 cities, i have background singers now. tavis: the have dancers, too? >> not yet.

[laughter] not yet. tavis: that is funny. you don't do bad by yourself. >> it is about the integrity of the music. this cd was so background-laden, and a lot of the songs i wanted to perform, i need to have that. it was either do that or use tools to emulate that. i wanted to try to just honor the integrity of the music. tavis: thank you, a few more people are eating now. i love this guy. his name is kem. you know that by now. his new album a "is called intimacy -- his new album is called "intimacy."

the have my tickets? i will see you on the road. that is our show for tonight. thanks for tuning in. until next time, keep the faith. ♪ ♪ >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley online. >> on my next guest, charles ferguson. that is next time. we will see you then. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] captioned by the national captioning institute

--www.ncicap.org-- >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference -- >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment, one conversation at a time. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. >> be more.