>> "bbc nenigh is preseed by kcet, los anges. funding fothisresentation made poibley the freeman foundaon onew york, stowe, vermo, anhonolulu. nean's own foundati. the john. ancatherine t. macathur foundation. and ion nk. >> union ba hasut its nancial strength to wo for wide rge ocompanies, fm smalbusinesses to major

cooratns. wh cane do for you? >> the united naons y not ve authorized a figor a roine change libya, but ses thregime ishanging itself. th week, th lyan feign mister has defected to britain. is n's father was knapped by theadda regime and terrogated. if youad to choose e per cent- one person o is more connected, y would not do tter. more fighters he been sent to charlie al-qaeda then in any other place and the world. >> what kd of libya will b chilen grow up in?

is cntrys about to find ou >> d the president of syria says the protests againstis rulere pt of some kind of conspiracy we wl he from the syrian ambassador tod. hello. be a brother leader will fht on, declared colel gadfi' blood puppetn trili this week his foign minister turned up london and the foreign minister shrugged h sulders. th said that e leadersp was biggehan y one man. rebels haveeenorceinto retreat this week. but this doe give the british government reaprobms to deal with. re is richard wiln. >>he libyan regime's opponents defection of this man

is the latt issue idays he is a big prize in the. in deathat see to have beenroken by mi- h been debriefed. >> he w o foreigninisr, a ke mberf this government. the fact that he dided to dect, adding that spks volumes. >> this presents a lem for th brish government. on one hand, iis a he intelligen to -- cou on the other, he is a ntroversial figure. hi name has been lined to assassinations. some have claimedhatis name may be lked the bombing of ight 1overockerbie. he caused he corol the scene -- ctrovsy at the ti.

saidhat happre of this. he also sailater tha he was misqted. in 14, therwas another murder and mder o 270eopl when p amlight 1 and 3 was bln frothe skiesver lockerbi an all of these cases, libyan intelligenceas strongly dicated. >>he haseen the center o gaddafi' regime. thefore he knowshat inlvent the regime hadn causg th lockerbie tragedy itse. the questn i will heell us? andf he does, c we ve credce t what he ss? >> his comments at the te sult him -- resultein him beg expelled. critics say he set a ruthles town foruccessors in london. it was 15 wh there was a

ruta attk aa sp in london. he was stabbed multiple time his body was mutilated his family belieed ts was warning from colonel gdaf's secuty fces. th murr was designed to sw that when omes t opposion, the regime's memy was ng. we spoke to his daughter, who ha loncampaigned for justice for her father there were no arres or prosutions at the time when libyan erate was expelled. was murdered, aft a few months of recving death threats. it was aery profeiona murder therwere cle sig. >theeople who werehe head of t foreign intelligence service, a keymembs of the gaafi regime -- he isnown to

some people as an envoy death. this was not someone whoou might thi heust work for the gaafi regime. no he was a key playeinhe yearof terr. >> in 1919 ''s and leaked intelligence repts showed -- 1919 ''s, lead intelligence reports shod inlvement. here, at this key meetingwith to bla, and he washereo negoate libya giving up weaps of mass destrucon. the aricans were warm, it' you, as easily as cables were reviewed. he h been wling besou carve the unite states'messag

is said th they wi be palable to lian ldership. manyelieve this should dominate the westernngagent. >> here ian individl wh has a depth of infmati. not just milary,f course. social, polical, economic. he uerstands how the heart be of e country of libyas at t moment, and also gaddafi's inki. he m note entirely upo date,ut hs a vy valuable urce. perhaps a propaganda source. t a worwe like toormal e, b thais t truth of th matter. >> we would like to queion and talko himecause it may encourage others to defect. it may speed uphe downfall of the gadhafi rege. and think what we have to be careful of is before anyeal

ne, fore he is aowed to g tony otherountry, we get answerto t queionshat ned to be answered of e terror a activies w involv in theast 2od years. >> thererenconfirmed reports that as many as 10 other lyan officials are onhe vge o defecting, but the forgn office wou n comment. if true, this has th potential still bolered the hopes of the opsiti, who hav been dashed byhe mitary offensive of t last few days. >> the impetus of the deftion s former libyan jadist had co to britain. theres anmazing novel bed around hiwn expienc. hifathers a leang diplomats who disappeared in th

1990's. e fmer foreign office minier michael bryan hamet with man times. let's tak about thi yourathe wasn exilen cairo. you lieve that during his disappearae he was terrogated? >> yes, my fatr sent letters that were smuggd ou of present. he senthree letters between 1993 and 1995 he dcrib in dail w he wasbducted, whe he was aced h heas treed, t people who ierroted him. >> does he saynythgore? >>he says -- not partilarl, bu n he says a lot of detail about how he w treated. th he w ttur.

that he was notllowed outf his cell f theirst two years exce eight tim. >> is inconceivable tt the man who took part in e inteogatn was unaware. >> absolutely. i tnk if you had to choose one person that is mo connected not onl to the ruthssne of th vionce exacted by bbn dictatorship over the people, t the macabre -- by theibya dictatshipver the people, but the macabre nure of it, you would not do betr. >> he doesot lk like a ute. >> yes he is i am alysaying,e is cse to the regime. everybody knows that. that itheacts.

that is part of the dna of the byan regime. but i think he is here to talk about legal issues. >>ulso metim. >> y. >> what sortf a mans he he ialev,urba, -- urbane,head of a brutal intelligence officehen met hi he was ao a key player in coincingaddafi to get r of weaps of mass destrucon, particularly chemical weapons >> h was absolutely centr to a deadly gime >> he w absolutely central. people like the sons of gaddafi had taken contl o much -- even when was with them back 2003. he d not like the ss. they are much more iluenal nothan they were then. >> the key questio i thiguy

in the country. you tolds a ttle bitbout what he is li. what should the britisho wi him? >> sti to the case. u cannoundeine -- i think the keyssue here, he is coopating with t authorities,k? including cases from libya, key stem do with ternional terrorism. am se th will ask him specifally. >> you e in an absolute key position onll this. 's family hasuffered peonally at this man's hand d y, you presumably suppts theevolution in libya. he must be premably offer some freedom from inquiry about

offees committed eewhere? >> many othe peopl in the country sfered. history showshat y do not sp past atrocities, the the change y havwill be a compromise change. th is a ftast opportunity r libya taddrs these imes have gone -- hd o her, d to have an new era o accotability. thviolence h not only been inscriminate and hideous, but it has had this ablute madness about it. no one is ever accountable. >> the scifi pblem with this man here, now. what do yosing you re in government? >> y, i was. e government does not have unit let's look at the evince.

mayrove beyond a doubt that meoneasommitted rocities. evn if they have been the head of aeal telligence servi, it m be difficult in a court of law. >> morally tugh, what should weo? >>he government has t get rid of gaddafi. how are we going to enre t peopl who areonsidering whetr to defect or noto defect? certainly not by arrestingim, ateast at this point. >> isounds like aawdreal toe. >>hat it soundsike is not lowing more people to die. th guy was ctral tthe gaddafi regime. wh we need too iso get others to dects to erode gaddafi's rime, then. >> what wou youike to see. -- what would y lik to

see? i would likeo s a robus triumph. i ink that is whathe libyan people desert. dyou believe theritish govement - they have n offered m anunity. ty ha said specificallthey have n offer him immunity. >> it is hard for meo sa because i do not know enoh about t conversations tt are kinglace. what i am conrned about though is howhis is deflecting fr the humanitianisaster. otheise would not be talking abo this. t what is taking place rit w is a daste and iope that thi issue is not going to flect fro that. >> nato's erations commander id this week thau.s. inlligence had picked up flickers of -qaa aivity ong rebel groups and liby

cuments publishedy wikileaks have confirmedhat america aa real conces abtslamist movements in libya. buthat may a post-gaddafi libya look like? r reporteras been the east, famous for its rebelon, d al sending fiterso iraq. weried toind t. >> unde by mrice refugees from spain -oorish refugees from its bank, it s always en a rebellious city. they fought the turk ey thought the italian they tried to stop barba pirates. now e're fightg thhomegrown libyan enemy, mumar ddafi. fiveunmen gave their lives for thcause ofreed, shot dead duri the ptest

w thrim at the mosque is the communications nerusenter. -- now the room at the mosque i e comnications ner cenr. >> gaddi has gs, but whave not guns befo europe or any count -- give us gu. >> several cities d inastern libya have n tir freom by emsees, but nowhey need far d help to finish th job and free theestf t countr -- foreign help to finish the job. but that is not technically what thenternational community sig up for, and somenurope and america are concerd th do noknowxactly wt kind of peoplehat are supporting a year.

gaddi clms tt in the uprising this areaas bome an ismic emirate. yet fnd nevidence of this. th is ken serioly b som western polymaks. the mosque now hosts a of the gimerom local victims. these were 12 psoners nationa league wanted dead and in 86. those revered here as marrs include tivis omany differenpolical persuasio, some who were not political acvistat all. among the gup, there was of vineland coalitionallethe ilsg whose members drew from

eastern byanowns. their al was an islamic stat afr 9/11, they were an alleged affiliate of al-qaeda in lib, most of them we jailed. plomicable from 2008 released by wikileaks revealed that the unite state remain concerned about t sead out exceed -- extremism ieastn liby this is described as a wellspring ofren't fighters gog to iraq. -- foreign fighte goi to ir. is only and medium-size town ofbout 80,000 people. 'been invited to speak to the head oone the most respecte families here. almo a of e suns have been in jl at one time or another by gaddafi. at is what he does not nt t bedentied on camera.

>> gaddafi say thathere are extrists her that if t uprising wer sucssfu throughout theount, libya itself might be run by extrists >> iis h opinion, but it not true. th country will not be hd by extremists. it will be run by moderes. mubarak said it in ypt. they said, i we are not in charge, extremis will take over. t they feland eir governments will fal too >> some say he start the town knn for its rebliou spiri ofnvestment opportunitie these citizens of his ste of the mass ha been winning more than 10 yearsor pper hoing.

>> i ve aob. i have no solution. can youelp me? am lking for a home. >> infrtructure inexto none there is n future for any of the younones thats why so ma are tning to their faithgo io the mosq. they s, iould rather g for jihawere to iraq --r to iraqnd sy in this country. -- andtatend in this cotry. >> at the mosque, they are being marshalled into minfor anti-gaddafi donstration. the revutio f the h meant wee witut school.

e cit is ill njures up its message. it tries to ensure its to politics. >> syr, thone-rty sta, now der e leadership of presidt bashar alassad is being undeinedy a conspicy, least according tohe president himself. he said there was no time to end the nearly 50 years of ergcy rule that has laste since his father cedeower. so it nonsp tohe rveiance,rbitry arrests, and torture. >> islot, youpresident was talking about -- who is behind it? i think all those who s

syri has really cashed i the result of theevolutions in egyptnd tunisia. e change that is about to hp the rianosition. it is encouraging m -- the expansion of policies towards israel. paicularly at a time when ria was going to go with countries alonghe se lin onghe aranitiative, we see this happeni in ria. and inkll pties whether in the west or isel or ong th fdamealists o are intested in seeing the destabilization osyria at -- it is e israelis behd it, ishat whayou e saying? >>hesraelis could be behin . >> it i interesting. the textf this spch h gave

-- he do not deny that there has been unrest. he doesot deny there has bee bloodshed. >> he es not den too, that ere are legitate demands of many o the peoe whare demonstratin bu uimaty, they were graduay in cited by those who ntednrest and you destabilize the countr at the most of t syrn people jere, axtrely sadbouthat happensrustow many pple- what happened -- >> how many people we kled? doou know? >> yes. we have the new infmation at says abo 25 ople were killed and three or four security men >> so, haid that people have letimate demands. and he also said at the end of his speech, whoer wts

reform,e a here. what sort of refms a he -- is he thinkg of? >> reforms that ar not done hastily just becse there are prsure on syria. we hav been living ncee stard the reform process. we had beenivin und continuous pssuris. the waat the migrati from the borders of iraq. thenrobls from the west. now have staed with the problems of sia - >> may be the las40 years of emergency rule -- and might be a change of tacti >>en if the ergen rule is fted, even at t emergency i lifted, we still need it, like the u.k. -- we wilot need an emeency ru in y mo. >> do you think heighthink

abt givinp tortures we? >>[unintelligibl >> if no, no. in syria your own untr which, as younow, haseen condemned by thenitedations anvarious oer organatio. >> he has genrders n to harm any demonstrators who does not dolisd public or private prerty. higiven orders to protect a of thoxcep in theirstay of t unrt. theyereilled bause they we shooting and ty we shot. >> omeini, do you think? >> only thoseho he contaed the forei med. >> said those in his boat tohe

official syrian med are telling the truth, d evyone el is makg it up? >> absolutely n, jemy. i belie the is truth and in every report. however,ometimes parts of the trut is highlited and other partsre coved up. >> that is for this week. goodbye. >> fding forhis presentatn is made poibley -- t--an'swn fountion and ion bank. >> unionank has put its financial strengt toork for a

wide range ofompanies. what can we do foyou? >>bbc nsnight was presend