tavis: good evening, from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. with up, a conversation actor michael sheen. in addition to his role in woody allen's "midnight in paris," you can catch the "frost/nixon" star in the new film, "beautiful boy." also tonight, a conversation with journalist and cnn anchor dr. john lamattina. he's out with a new book about his personal and professional journey in the news business called "transparent." actor michael sheen and don lemon coming up right now. >> all i know is his name is james and he needs extra help with his reading. >> yes. to everyone making a difference. >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports

tavis smiley with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: always pleased to welcome michael sheen to this program, the star of films like "frost/nixon" and "the queen" can be seen in the woody allen film, "midnight in paris" and in june, "beautiful boy." here's a scene from "beautiful

boy." >> did we do something? how could he do it? did we do something, did we not do something? >> no, no, we gave him he could want. >> he was a quiet kid. he was lonely. he never played with the neighborhood kids. we should have known. >> why does it have to be our fault. we did the best we could. let's go to sleep. >> i don't want to go to sleep. i want to talk about this. >> what's there to talk about? you were a terrific mother. we didn't do anything wrong, o.k.? tavis: this film represents for me, michael, the worst agony that i can imagine any parent ever having to go through. you agree? >> absolutely, yeah. i was in the room with my when she buried her son who died of cancer, my uncle, saying a mother should never bury a child, it's

unnatural. and i think, you know, i have a 12-year-old daughter now and i think there's a biological imperative that when you become a parent, you somehow imagine the worst things happening to your child in order to stop them from happening. guess it makes you more alert. but something like that actually happens and becomes a reality, it's unthinkable. tavis: we should explain what the movie is about. people are, like, what did i miss? the storyline is? >> it's about a couple who, when we meet them in at beginning of the film, are on the verge of separating anyway. this is a relationship that's not just in trouble, but has come to the end of the line, and they have a son in college and the unthinkable happens. there's a shooting in the college, someone goes into the campus and shoots indiscriminately and they're waiting to hear about whether their son has survived it or not the knock at the door comes and it's bad news but it's more than that, it turns out that their son is the one that did

the shooting. so we follow the story that we never get to hear about, i guess, the story of the parents of the person who's actually perpetrated the crime, and these are -- the sort of untold story, i suppose, of what happens to a couple where there's no rule book, the grieving process. they've lost their son, too, but the grieving process is so much more complicated by the fact that they're having to face who their son is, was, how could he do what he did? were they responsible? where's the answer lie? is there blame to be apportioned? do you blame the other parent? do they blame each snrgt? and the extraordinary thing is we see a couple that have nothing left to share with each other who, flew -- through going through hell and darkness, find each other again. this is not a question i

ask often because i could ask it literally of every movie star on the program, but i'm curious as to how you, michael sheen, go about researching a role like this and i'm asking this because there is no rule book here. you hate for any parent to be in this but i think sometimes and see the stories on the news about some kid or any person killing a bunch of people, i often wonder what the parents must be dealing with, how they must process that their child is the one at whose hands these other persons were murdered and maimed. the news has just broken here that jared laughner, the individual accused of shooting congresswoman gabby giffords, that he is, by reason of insanity, not able to stand trial. we'll see what the american public has to say about that in the coming days, but what must his parents feel about the fact that this is their son who did this heinous act. how do you research a role like

this? >> it was difficult, you know, thinking about it beforehand, it was a 30-day shoot. we made the film in 30 days. tavis: that's quick. >> that's a quick shoot, wow. thinking about that, thinking about the fact that the focus of the film is about this couple, this journey they go on, as opposed to -- it's not really a film about a shooting in a school, you know. it's about a couple trying to grapple with something that unai felt like the idea of getting in touch with families, it felt inappropriate somehow, and not necessary in this case. i thought, in a way, the main thing we could -- me and maria could concentrate on, is the back story of this couple, what it was like when things were good, how did it change once they had a child, what's been the trajectory of that relationship, how did they the point where we meet them in the film and then

when the events of the film happen, to allow that to happen and see what happens. and the feeling of total confusion, not only do we know what to do now, they don't know what to do and at the same time they don't know how to feel. how do you feel about a child who has done something so destructive and yet you have unconditional lo for them? how does that work? where do you go in your head and heart when that happens? that's what we see happening. it was more about being in the right frame of mind and right open state to work with another actor in such an intense way over a very short period of time. tavis: you are, obviously, an actor, so this is not a real-life situation for you, thank god, but given what you saw on the paper and given what you offer us on screen, what is it about this trauma, this tragedy, that allows the couple to rediscover each other? >> what i found, in thinking

about it myself, and talking about it as a group about our experiences and relationships, i realized that we do a lot of self mythologizing, we're each the hero of our own story and we perceive what's going on around us and especially in a relationship from the viewpoint of, well, this is my story and i'm the hero of it and i justify what i do standard and you start to build a myth that you live by, i think, and that myth can help you find your way through life and the relationship but it also imprison you ultimately and certainly my character in this film, he's told himself the story that he's only stayed in the relationship because of the child, so he resents the child, he resents his wife, and actually, all this stuff, all this huge wall that's got built up between them, which is this myth he lives by, needs to come out, because that's what's in them and 32 is a pivot all scene in the film where all the things that were unsaid

explode out. and while it's painful to watch, it's positive because once that's out, there's the possibility of moving on and they're somehow able to see each other again in a more vulnerable way because they've gone through this difficult, difficult journey. but that's ultimately it, you have to find a way to get all that stuff out because it blinds you otherwise. tavis: what's the takeaway, is there a takeaway for michael sheen, the person, and is there a takeaway from tavis, the rest of us, the viewer, when we see the project about humanity? and i don't want to color that much more than that, but what do we learn here about humanity? >> i guess the aim of all art, of all performance and story telling is, tigs should -- it sd bring us closer together rather than pushing us apart and it should somehow allow us to be

brave enough to not take the easy answers. in a way, i can understand that we want to apportion blame, we to understand why these things happen, because if it's senseless and random, that means in a random universe and it's chaos and there's no meaning and that's a truly frightening concept so the idea of wanting to find the answer is an understandable human urge but at the same time i feel like there may be answers for why these things happen but i'm not entirely sure that we, as a species, are there yet. so i'm not saying there is no answer but i'm saying that easy answers and quick answers just to feel better about keeping the chaos at bay doesn't necessarily serve us so i hope that this film is able to expand the understanding of people and somehow say these are not monsters, even the person who does it is not a monster, and it only serves us to try to understand as opposed to just push away and isolate.

>> finally, snins woody allen -- since this woody allen project has so much buzz, your character is? >> i play an american who wishes he was british and is a self-proclaimed expert on all things as all americans do, obviously. [laughter] we got rid of you, you just want to come back. tavis: "beautiful boy" and the woody allen project, michael sheen is a busy actor in two projects out at the same time. thanks for coming on the program. coming up, cnn anchor and author, don lemon. >> if i'm not mistaken, rodan's work was influenced by his wife, camille. >> rose is the one. >> he was never married to rose. >> he's a pseudo intellectual. >> i prefer a smoky feeling. carol and i are going dancing.

we heard of a great place. interested? >> no, no, no. i don't want to be a kill joy, but i need fresh air. tavis: don lemon is out with a new book about his journey they in louisiana. the book is called "transparent." don lemon, thank you for being on our program. >> before i talk about my book, can i say, genius. i ordered it and i had been traveling and this is what i'm reading. genius, failing up. tavis: put mine down. let's talk about yours. >> just of the lovefest. tavis: the first thing i noticed about you when i first saw you pop up on national television

was this news anchor on this serious network called cnn with this baby face. so how often in your career have you been taken seriously as a news anchor? >> that's an important point because i think people think i'm younger than i am, therefore i'm less experienced and i may have less credibility and it's really an embarrassment of riches, so to speak, because it should be a blessing, but i think it hurts me sometimes, actually, in my career, because i look younger. i have a few gray hairs coming in and i wish more would come in so that some people would take me seriously but i don't think it's a huge issue anymore. i don't think i look 15. tavis: long term you have what we all want, a baby face will serve you well when you're 60 years old and still on cnn. that's going to serve you well in the long run but the combination of the baby face and being an african-american man, how difficult has it been for you to be taken as seriously as

you want to be taken? >> it has been difficult and i'm kind of embarrassed to talk about it, but it's true. people, i will say things in meetings or suggest things or have ideas and people will think that i don't know what i'm talking about because i look this way and they haven't looked at the body of my work and at my resume to realize that i've been doing this for a long time, since 1991, and i have an idea of what the audience needs to hear, wants to hear, and should hear, right? and how it should be presented, and i do that on my show but i think sometimes, yeah, i'm not taken seriously because of that and being an african-american, you know there is a double standard. let's just be honest about it. people don't think sometimes that wean what we're doing, especially black anchors. they think we may be an affirmative action hire or an anchor robot that reads the teleprompter and i just did a broadcast for two hours without a teleprompter.

you're right. tavis: i love turning on cnn and seeing you on the weekends in the primetime slot. i would much rather turn on cnn and watch you in primetime on a week night slot and this is not a -- i'm not casting aspersions on cnn, i'm raising this because so many african-americans, no matter how gifted or talented or skilled they, end up occupying the weekend spots. i look at cnn, it's not just you, frederica is on the weekends. great anchors on cnn but on the weekends. why is it that black folk, now matter how talented, oftentimes ank anchor on the weekends? >> they call it the weekend ghetto because a lot of networks have people of color on the weekend. you have to ask cnn and the other networks that. i can't answer that question. i know from living in the skin and from working in this skin as a professional that it is tough

to get that brass ring and i think cnn is probably better than most about it because we do have a lot of african-americans, a lot of people of color on our network. we have an international division with people from all over the world represented. but i think that that is a place where we need to make strides and talk about it and we need to give someone an honest opportunity to do that and that's not why i'm here. you're asking me that question, i'm not saying it should be me, but, yes, you're right and we should be beyond that by now. tavis: as successful as you've been in occupying the primetime spot you do occupy on the weekends in cnn. >> and we win, by the way. we win all the time. we have great ratings and i have a big fan base on the weekends. tavis: great ratings, great conversations, you conduct great interviews, which is why you're winning. but all of us have dreams and goals. for those persons on cnn and

other places who happen to be of color and on the weekend, how do you assess your own personal journey? is the goal to be in primetime week nights? what's the goal? i assume none of us wants to stay in the same place forever. even oprah gave it up after 25 years. >> it would be disingen yows say that is not the goal. who doesn't want the brass ring. ultimately, you have to be happy are. you i got great advice from a co-worker in chicago and she said, you are so talented, you just bloom where you're planted and that's what i would say to anyone and especially minorities, bloom where you're planted because excellence, greatness, talent will always win out in the end and people will recognize that whether or not you're in a primetime position, no matter where you are, and hopefully one day there will be someone who can ascend to the brass ring at any network. tavis: you referenced my book a

moment ago and i opened my book with a quote that's meant a great to me from samuel beckett who once said, "ever tried, ever failed, no matter. try again, fail again, fail better." that's always meant so much to me. try again, fail again, fail better. i raise that because i open up my book with that quote and you open yours with another. >> listen to the mustn'ts, listen to the don'ts, listen to the never haves and listen close to me, anything can happen, child, anything can be. tavis: why has that been important? >> people have told me no from the beginning except for my family and those closest to me and i think you have to believe in yourself no matter what at all costs. someone asked me on twitter the other day, it was ask don lemon day anything you opt want and

they asked, what would you change about yourself? and i said, absolutely nothing, because who i am, what i am, has made me the person i am today and i wouldn't change that journey. tavis: what it was like growing up in louisiana? it was beautiful. i love louisiana. tavis: you just bought a piece of land in new orleans building a house. >> i didn't just want to have a condo in the french quarter where you drop in. i would love to be a part of the fabric of that city and help that city come back and be the great city it was when i was a child. i love louisiana. there's no place on earth like louisiana and no city on earth like new orleans. i grew up in baton rouge. it has a certain vibe, a certain flavor, a certain smell. there's so much culture packed into that small place, especially in new orleans. you can't walk an inch without hearing great music, without seeing great art, without tasting great food. it is concentrated with greatness and with a vibe that

is unlike any place on earth. tavis: were you at all surprised, i would assume not, given that you were in this business for as long as you have been in it, were you surprised that you could write a book about your life and your work and your aspirations, frustrations, fears, hopes, and there's always that one or two lines in the book that people seize upon, in your case, your being open about your sexual orientation and molestation. what have you made of all of the hype about those revelations as compared to the holistic story you tell? >> this journey, especially the last couple of days with the book coming out and the revelation, it's been overwhelming and i'd have to say it's been overwhelmingly positive. i had no idea it would be this big a deal and i had no idea i would get the overwhelming support i've gotten but i'm not naive. i realize that those are the

things people will pick up on and ultimately, to be quite honest, those are the things that are probably going to get people to buy the book because they hear it even though it is, you read the book, it's not a big part of the book. i talk about my life, working as a broadcaster, my journeys as a journalist. that's all talked about in the book but the overall message of those things i talk about are far more important than people buying the book because of that. i think people need to hear that. i think -- my story is the american story and i think that african-americans especially need to hear that because of the preconceptions that we have about sexuality, about homosexuality, and about molestation. we want to sweep those things and wehe carpet understand why. it's the vestiges of slavery, discrimination, jim crow and all of those things and we don't want to air our dirty laundry. but what i understand through my journey in life and being a

black gay man who has been discriminated against, who's been molested, that, in order to you have to talk about things, you have to bring light to that dark place in order to get through it, just as we have done with discrimination and slavery and segregation. tavis: why did you name the book, "transparent"? >> because transparent is my life. we use the word in journalism, we throw it around and say, let's be transparent and let people in on the process and how it happened, what happens in the and when we have our meetings and in the conference rooms, how does that process work, how does it get to the public. in order to be transparent. you really have to be completely honest and open so that is how -- not sort of, that's how i've lived my life and where i am now. i am completely transparent. there's nothing you can't ask me and nothing i won't talk about.

tavis: has the transparency led to, don, feelings of vulnerability or liberation? >> both. tavis: or both? >> both. it's a tug of war because i feel extremely vulnerable but at the end of the day i realize that there is something about what i'm doing and it's almost, for me, a define process. so i -- divine process. so i had to push myself and get over the vulnerability and live through the fear because that's how we learn. when you learn, you grow, you have to stretch, and it's not easy. when you're working out your muscles or doing whatever, it will hurt a little bit. if you're learning to do math or whatever it is, it makes you think, so i have to push beyond that process but i do feel empowered now. someone asked me, how do you feel? are you still nervous? are you still afraid about telling people you're gay? and i said, i cared yesterday before everybody knew, now, i'm free. no one can hold it against me. i am writing my story, i am in

charge of my own story so i would say that it is a mix but i'm glad i'm living that tug of war, that mix. tavis: you suggested a moment ago, don, how the american people have responded to you, overwhelmingly positive with the book, "transparent." how the folk at cnn taking this? >> they've been extremely positive and supremely, i should say, supportive. and i do have -- there's a caveat there that i'm not in the board rooms. i'm not in the offices. i'm not making those decisions and i don't know. i would imagine they discuss everything, sexuality, hair color, everything, eye color. tavis: neck tie. >> oh, yeah. don't ever wear that tie again, wear a darker suit or what have you. but they have been on the surface and i believe it to be true, i believe there is a culture at cnn that is really honest about diversity and acceptance and i think that will win out regardless of how -- if there are fleam who may not

support me but i think if there are people that don't support me, they're in the minority. tavis: i think he's the best thing to television on the weekends in this country and i'm honored he came by to join the conversation. his name is don lemon, you can catch him on cnn and the new book is called "transparent." >> and this book is called "fail up" and it's genius. these lessons are amazing. thank you so much for having me on and doing what you do. tavis: that's our show for tonight. see you back here next time on pbs. until then, good night from l.a., thanks for watching and keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for the first of two special nights with larry king and his interview of yours truly next time. we'll see you then. >> all i know is his name is james and he needs extra help his reading. >> i'm james.

>> yes. >> to everyone making a difference -- >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley, with every and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and from contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioned by the national captioning institute ---www.ncicap.org---