tavis: good evening from los angeles. a conversation with william h. macy. his latest project is "shameless para " it has not been picked up for a second season. singer and songwriter sara bareilles. a she is on tour of her latest cd. we are glad to have joined us. coming up right now. >> he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us live better. >> and nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley.

we are about to join him in improving literacy and improving obstacles to economic empowerment. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: please welcome william h. macy back to the program. he has schist finish the first season of "shameless." the show has been picked up for a second season. here is say scene. >> did you miss me?

have one. >> go way, frank. >> a pen, mr. barkeep. it is disability date. >> i thought they had a guy falling you are around with a camera. >> they couldn't follow me around if they wanted to. they can catch me doing anything. what's with the crowd? crack's a layout. >> that is the problem with working. too much instability. stress. tavis: what is the message? you are scanning the government. you're a drunk father of six kids. as we saw, you get your checking go to the bar. where is the social redemptive value of the character? >> what was the first part? [laughter]

that is the bad news. the good news is he as a great sense of humor. he loves his children. or at least he knows their names. [laughter] he makes things exciting around the bar. tavis: why -- >> thou was a misunderstanding in the jail. the canadian government. >> what is it about the character that resonates with the american public enough for you to get a second season? >> i do not think there rests on my shoulders. the show was created by paul. there is a british version. it is a remarkable idea for a

show. it resonates. they could do a french and spanish version. it speaks to issues that are universal. this dysfunctional family with an addictive parent. it is a common story. tavis: you mentioned there is a british version. i think of your show and i think of the "office." there is no guarantee that just because it worked in britain we could import it here. sometimes it falls flat. what is your sense of why this one was able to work when others have not? >> the idea translates well. perhaps more than that, john wells is a genius. he should run the universe. he recognized that it had an american character to it buried in there.

he set it in chicago. they cast it genius lee. even though our first season had a lot of episodes in the british version, it found its own voice. it is a good fit. the british tried to do a lot of our tv, too. you can never tell what is going to work. tavis: is there something about setting this in chicago as opposed to any other city that adds to the success? >> i feel like it was a genius choice. i am a chicago boy myself. i started my career there. it feels like it is in the center. politically it is in the center. the mix of people in chicago borrow from the west and east coasts. it is a big city. it is a city that works. people work hard.

you cannot get a job, go to chicago. you will find when there. it is a good looking city. john wells was really specific about not setting it in the south or anywhere where people would say, listen to the funny accent. those people are like that. he wanted this to get under people's skin. that is why chicago was a great choice. tavis: i am laughing whether people welcome your thoughts. >> they used to say that. tavis: we'll see. your career has burgeoned and blossomed over the years. primarily connected to your independent film work. unless i missed something, this is your first tv series. >> it is.

i have done tv. i was on "er." show.an arc on my wife's but the first time i have done a series. watching felicity do it " desperate housewives" was an eye opener. all of the things that frighten me about it, the same character ad nauseam, made it look fun. tavis: so you are watching felicity, how much she loves it. as a transfer to you? >> it has. i am not a great show and i have the role of the century. for the first time, sometimes i will hold the line so that more time to make faces. that is how outrageous the character is. it is hard for me to do something "wrong."

the cast and writing is sublime. i have felt this for awhile. the best stuff anywhere is on television. tavis: why do you say that? >> independents have been gutted. the paradigm has fallen apart. it has not yet been replaced. production is way down. it has gotten smaller. there is a certain kind of film that has disappeared. that was my bread and butter. the big tent call features, i love them. i see them. but they are a specific animal. by design, they have to appeal to a lot of people. they put so much money. they cannot be controversial. they cannot tell small stories. that is why so many movies, the third act is the same battle

scene. they just change the villains and costumes. tavis: he said a couple of things. the bass stuff on television, i hear the point you're making. the evidence would suggest that network television is in trouble. certain shows do well. cable has come on strong over the past 10 years. is that sustainable? if the numbers suggest network tv may be in trouble, is that sustainable? >> i use the word television to include everything, a cable and network. it seems to be expanding. the audience is expanding. there are more and more shows and networks. some much programming. some of it is dreadful but some of it is mind-boggling ly good.

30 rock, saturday -- is the best of the best. week after week challenging and wonderful. tavis: since you mentioned that the independent film as we once knew it is in trouble, tell me more about why you feel that way. what the prescription is for fixing the problem. >> the old paradigm used to be you would make an independent film for $5 million. you would earn the money back through foreign sales. you could get some of that money up front. you would have a feature release which maybe you would make a little bit of money indicators. then you would make all your money back when you sold the ancillary rights and they did the dvds.

because people collected movies. now people do not collect some much. you can get it online. the feature release is dead. it costs you money to take a $5 million movie imploded into theaters. you are adding to your debt burden. the foreign markets are down. it is hard to get financing together. it used to be, i make myself sound old, i am all. it used to be, i would hear tells of up to $1 million said they would pay for a movie to put it on television. now they pay $75,000. the finances have fallen apart. you cannot make any money back. what is the remedy? i do not know.

one of the things is that most people do not want to pay for things on the web. they want a free. -- it free. tavis: is there any place for that could storytelling to find grounds? or is the storytelling from the small independents a thing of the past? >> it will come back. there are still people who want to make independent film. there are people who want to watch independent film. there are even people who want to pay for independent films. but we have to sort it out as to how they will get their money back. it will probably do with or netflix or apple. you will turn on the tv and up will come a menu. there will be a thing for independent films. it will cost you $15 to c a new

release. -- see a new release. tavis: until it comes back, you will be on "shameless." >> happy as a clam about. tavis: happy to have the one here. please give my regards to your wife. up next, sara bareilles. stay with us. sara bareilles is a singer and songwriter whose disk made its debut want -- at number one. she isn't tore ons -- she is on tour to support the cd. here is the single. ♪

i cannot help the feeling i am going down ♪ tavis: the next time you do a video, will use random people to the sink? -- lypsynch? [laughter] who puts out a video these days? the name of the game is to promote and promulgate your

project. you do a video you do not appear in. >> that is partially why i liked it so much. i got to watch it with pride. it showcased the people in my life and career who have influenced me. it is such a familiar format the fan video where they sing along to their favorite song. it would be egotistical of me to ask these people to do it for me. but they all jump on board. it is my favorite video. i love it. tavis: this is your third project. the sophomore project with a big release. you know how this game works. you put a big project out and people love it. then they expect more of the same. how have you navigated putting out a second project in being true to who you are even though your fans or more of the same? >> i had to find a balance where

i sort of suspended my own expectations. essentially you are competing with yourself. [laughter] there is no winner. i dealt with some serious writers block. i felt paralyzed by those expectations and wanting to please people and realizing that was undermining my creative process. i was not able to write songs i cared about because i kept thinking about the end game. that is never good for being a good creative person. tavis: how did you break through? >> the song on target. it is about my right to's block. block.er's i'm going to do a from an authentic place and hope that guides me to wherever i'm supposed to be. tavis: i have spoken to

thousands of artists here. this is the first time, i have never had an artist say the way is tof writer's block write a song about debt. -- it. it seems common sense that if your stock, right about being stopped. >> i have to give credit to the producer of my first record. we have a conversation. i was complaining about being stuck. he said i had a lot to write about. i needed his prodding and expertise to remind me. it seems like such an -- of course. i cannot believe i had that have someone else tell me. tavis: i can hear all of los angeles picking up a pen and paper. they are all stock. screenplays are being completed as we speak.

what did you make of the success? i am fascinated to understand how people who get to be successful so quickly. there is no such thing as overnight success. but that album took off. how do you process the overwhelming success of that project so were leon? >> i did feel a little blindsided by a. -- by it. i think i was shellshocked by a lot of the experience that was coming. it has always been an uphill battle. it was not easy to get the record release. it was not easy to get the song on the radio. it has been this organic unfolding of wear my career is at now. i attribute my grounding to the

people around me. we felt like we were in this together. i know how lucky i am. i worked my butt off but i also got lucky. i met the manager that change the course of my life. i got hooked up wet wood -- with the right label. there are a lot of people out there with talent that it does not come together for them. tavis: what you make of love song? it has been played everywhere for almost every purpose. i was with a prince. i recall having a conversation with them about the time he allowed a song of his to be used for a commercial. he ended up hitting it. it was little red corvette. he hated the experience. he said he would never be let a song be commercialized.

i raise that to ask how you take the fact that this song has been used for everything by everybody? >> it is the climate we are in today. prince as the fortune of having come up in a time when that was not very common at all. he is also a monster. he can call his own shots. for songwriters and artists today, it is the nature of the game. visibility and exposure comes from licensing and getting your music out there. hopefully in places where it is a good fit. there would be things i might say no to. for the most part, i think it exposes a new listener. i'm lucky for that exchange. it is the way things are going. tavis: the times are different.

how do you describe kaleidoscope heart? but the album cover back out. -- back up. i want to go back your comments about competing with yourself. i have been looking at this cover for two weeks. you are staring yourself down. >> i have a big nose and a profile i decided to embrace. so many people say i love my nose. this record is a step forward for me. when i listen i hear how much fun i had with the process. i was a joyful in the recording of the record. i have great chemistry with my producer. i think i was not as overwhelmed by the process of making a record for the first time.

i got to just have fun. i took risks. i try to write things that were harder to sing, harder to play. more invented. i am really proud. this is a record -- i did not know how would feel about it. i feel like this is my best work so far. tavis: i got turned on by the tactile -- title and track. tell me more about say you are sorry. >> it is about these people who never acknowledged they are wrong. [laughter] we all know them. it is the one get out of jail free cards you are waiting for. they skirt the issue all the time. tavis: tell me more about your songwriting process. when you talk to songwriters,

the process -- what is your process? how'd you get it out? >> several different ways. a lot of times it is me sitting down at the piano and sort of just placing my hands on the keys and some -- seeing something comes out. usually it is music before lyrics. but there are these moments where i feel like the chemistry is right. i will get this visceral reaction to what is coming out. there are times where had burst into tears. i do that a lot. there are times when i will start to cry as i am writing something. that usually means there is a level of something there that this special. right thing is spiritual for me. i think of myself as the vessel or the conduit for something that is bigger than me. hopefully i try to get out of the way and not mess it up.

tavis: have you always cried? >> my whole family. [laughter] misgivings are awesome. -- thanksgivings are awesome. tavis: listened to my words and not my tears. >> people get scared. they shut down. this happens all the time. [laughter] tavis: that is why i love sara bareilles. we will listen to her words and lyrics. sara is about to embark on a summer long tour. a whole bunch of us are excited she is out. we look forward to seeing her some more this summer. glad to have you want.

that is our sure for -- show for tonight. good night from los angeles. for more information on today's show, a visit pbs.org. tavis: joining me next time is ziggy marley on the anniversary of the death of his father. that is next time. we will see you then. >> i am james.

>> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. we are proud to join him in working to improve literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--