tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation about china with henry kissinger, a man who paved the way from the 1970's for the most populous nation. his latest vote is called -- book is -- "on china." with his reading. >> yes. difference -- >> you help us all live better. tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy a time.

pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] >> dr. henry kissinger's long career includes his time as u.s. secretary of state, during which he was awarded the nobel peace prize. he made a historic trip to china, which ushered in an era end a relationship that continues to grow in importance and complexity. his new book is called "on china." thank you for your time.

let me start with some basics. how much of the way we view china and the way they do business has to do with this huge and gap between the numbers of people -- 300 million americans, and 1.3 ha billion chinese people -- how much of the way we see things differently has to do with the number of citizens? >> china is too vague, and -- ibg, and it has a huge population compared to any other country, and governing hough and 1.3 billion people -- governing 1.3 billion people is a huge task, so some of the problems have to do with the difference in numbers. some house to do with the difference in history. american history is relatively brief.

chinese history is a uninterrupted for 4000 years, so the perspective is different, too. >> i wonder whether or not our relationship we have with china now is on the right track, moving in the right direction or the wrong direction? >> the government at both sides have said they want a partnership and even a strategic partnership, but in practice, all whole series of issues keep coming up, like the south china sea issue, the korean issue, some economic issues that indicate the solution of some problems have not caught up with what leaders have put forward. >> china has many issues. you cover many of them in his

books. i just got back from china, and there are number of things i would like to ask. it appears to me the issue of poverty and wealth and equality in china is a form of instability in the future. you buy that argument? >> i agree with this. there are a number of economic issues. wells and the economy is an emerging new one. -- wells and the economy is an emerging one. no -- wealth and the economy is an emerging one. the process of urbanization said results in a situation in which there are 150 million people on their own essentially looking for work. tavis: we talk about china all the time in terms of how much

money it has. we talk about the rich and the super rich, when with 1.3 billion people, the overwhelming majority of chinese people are not wealthy. they are poor, so what happens in a country where the sheer numbers of people who get tired of being in poverty start to raise their voices? >> in the last decade the standard of living has risen enormously from a very low level to a higher level, a higher level is still by american standards very low. there are many different calculations in terms of how you measure poverty, but on any calculation, people are below

with the united nations would describe as the poverty line. as long as the economy keeps growing, the general opinion is that the chinese political system will not be threatened by reasons of poverty, but if there is an economic crisis, then a new situation will a rise. tavis: one might argue the crisis might very well be connected to the environment. as we talk tonight, there is flooding in china on the one hand. on the other hand, is manufacturing and the economy is losing at a fast pace. is it fair to say if the environment collapses, the economy collapses? >> of the environment collapses,

the economy will be severely affected, and up until now, the chinese have been given authority to growth, and they have taken the position that the west of france industrialization without rigid the west advance industrialization without impacting the -- taken the position that the west advance industrialization without impacting the environment, but how rapidly china can deal with it is the question. tavis: when you get to china and get the chance to talk to the people, are there things they say off the record now? i have been there a few times. i have heard people are concerned about corruption in government, so i asked to what degree is corruption another

form of instability or an impediment to the progress you speak of. >> corruption is one of the big challenges to chinese stability , and it is certainly true that when you have such a vast country that corruption is one of the big challenges. >> your critics have raised the issu repeatedly that you have not been as aggressive, a thoughtful as you might on the issue of human rights in china. on that issue, you say what? >> critics have to criticize. i grew up as a discriminated

minority in a dictatorship, so obviously the issue of human rights is a matter of concern to me. people forget today, when the opening of china was undertaken in the 1970's, but the general conviction was that china should been brought into the international system, even the government that they have. after the reform movement developed in china and macroeconomics developed, i have been in the unusual position that i have had access to chinese leaders and have therefore exercise my views on human rights through a policy of engagement rather than through confrontation. >> i hear your way, but i am

trying to get an understanding, because i could not find is in the text, and what you are saying today. he sits in prison after receiving the nobel peace prize. what say you about human rights abuse? >> i have actually statement on. tavis: what i am asking is how important -- >> my position is that on a number of occasions i have interceded with the chinese authorities about individual cases. i have thought my impact would be greater in this manner than by people who make public declarations. i have already expressed respect for people who make public

declarations, but i have chosen a different route in many cases, which has not been ineffective. the using that strategy long term is going to be helpful -- do you think the strategy long term is going to be helpful? >> it depends on what you are talking about. i have believed us relations improve and as the country's become -- i have to believe does relations and -- i have believed as relationships improve, they will become more dependent on each other. i believe there is a whole set of issues in the world -- environment, energy, cyberspace -- that can only be dealt with

on oracle basis. the traditional national rivalries and -- now dealt with on this basis. the traditional national rivalries and what is needed is to develop a sense then joint solutions are necessary in these problems, and in these problems, the united states will express its views on human rights. if you read my book, you will know in a number of places i have said human rights are an essential aspect of the american way of thinking of the organization of government, and these cannot be contained by

international frontiers. i think that is a direct quote. tavis: when you think about the future of china with regard to the one child policy, what is your sense about how that will impact their growth in the future? >> the one child family has had a revolutionary impact on chinese culture in the sense that chinese society was based on large families and of large family groups taking care of the older generation. now the grandparents are competing for the attention of a single child. at the same time, the responsibility for taking care of the older generation is leading to a shrinking of the

base that can do that. in 2005, nine plays to work in -- 9.2 working people took care of our retired person. this will shrink at some point in the next 30 years to two. something -- two point something taking care of people, so in the resources and the attention that is paid to all the people, there is enormous change in chinese tradition. it originated because the growth of the population seemed to be unmanageable, but it has had

consequences out of proportion to any of the original intentions. tavis: what you say about the control the chinese government maintains so aggressively over social media? how much longer can the government control social media for this generation of young people in china? >> i have taken the position that if somebody has had a special view in the relationship, i will limit my and concentrates en on personal contact. i believe in freedom of

expression, and i believe that society derives when a permit freedom of free societies thrived when they permit freedom of expression -- i believe that society thrives when they permit freedom of expression. tavis: the ambassador is set to announce he is officially in the race, so you will have a former chinese ambassador in the race. how do you expect these issues to be interpreted next year? >> one has to say that since the opening of china in 1971, eight american presidents have pursued the relationship of working for cooperation with

china. there were slight changes from time to time, but they always came back to the same thing. when the ambassador was in china, he did a distinguished job, and he followed. will this be an issue between the parties? i hope not, because the national interest of the united states is not a partisan issue. it is something that goes on for decades and centuries, so there may be differences of opinions on specific topics, but i do not expect this to be a defining issue of the campaign. tavis: it may not be a defining issue, but given the midterm i sawn's, -- elections,

an increasing amount of anti- china rhetoric to get votes. you don't expect that this time around? >> i expect a responsible leaders of both parties will recognize the importance of the relationship between china and the united states. neither side will be able to control every expression of every partisan participant in the debate, but i would hope the main lines of our foreign policy and will be not gone on a partisan basis. tavis: you suggested eight presidents since we opened relations with china have continued on a policy that is pretty much the same with slight deviations here and there. to my mind that means both republicans and democrats have not altered their policy to

china. how do the american people read that statement? >> eight american presidents have come to the same conclusions about the general direction. of course over 40 years, and different problems arise, so ary content of the issues ver from time to time. the american people have enough confidence that hopefully the president is trying to serve the national interest. secondly, they have come to a certain set of conclusions that they must reflect the realities of the situation and i deeply respect it very good -- and the

respect it. there will be people with views, and that should be debated. tavis: what is your view on protecting the relationship with china at the moment? >> let me put it another way. the united states is a great country that has played an indispensable international role since the end of the second world war. china in its history has also been a very influential country, but it is in the last decades of merging on the international scene, so it is inevitable that we sometimes encounter difficulties. i am a student of history, and i

am very much struck by the fact that the seminal event in european history that destroyed the european states as we knew them was the first world war, and i have often asked myself, would the leaders who knew and what it -- who went to war and known what the world would look like in 1919, would they have done it? i doubt it, so what i have urged is " china and the united states take a look at where they would act, where they compete, and to see that the rivalry is conducted in a manner that does not lead to a global catastrophe. it's that is a key issue before

us. of course there will be disagreements, and of course we are going to have different points of view, and i would like to make another point. if the united states does not do what it needs to do to remain competitive, then no abstract theory of cooperation is going to help us. we have to be competitive. we have to be purposeful, and we have to be willing to cooperate. tavis: you raised a series of questions. are was just three-reading your dissertation and your comments and who -- just reading your dissertation and your comments. i will not go into that, but the economic crisis we are going through, how much of a blow to

chinese confidence do you think how -- do you think our crisis has been? >> it is a a huge blow to chinese confidence and their perception of us. the chinese held the view that even when we have political differences, and the economic field, we knew how to run things, and they could learn from us. they have now seen a major collapse of american financial institutions, from which we are just beginning to recover, and it has many chinese who used to rely on the united states in the field have become more dubious about it, and it is certainly one of the challenges we need to deal with. >> let me ask you this question. what makes you hopeful about the

relationship between the u.s. and china in the future? >> i am hopeful vicos -- because the view i have developed is not peculiar to me. it is a view you must have to come through when you examine the situation. i know the leaders on both sides, and i have a chance to talk to them, and sometimes to mediate with them, and i believed that most of the time they realize this is necessary, but in the modern world, the urge sometimes replaces the important, but i thing if the leaders in -- i think if the leaders keep an eye on the important, they will overcome the stresses, and i would like to stress both sides have to do

this. it is not enough for the united states to have these intentions. the chinese have to reciprocate. tavis: the new best-selling book from dr. henry kissinger is called "on china." i appreciate you sharing your insights. >> thank you for having me. >> we will see you tomorrow night. until then, thank you for watching, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on to a's show, visit -- on the show, visit pbs.org. >> join me next time for "sugar" ray leonard and his boxing life outside of the ring. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i'm james.

>> yes. >> to everyone making a difference -- >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

i took it into a shop once and they said-- they thought it was probably worth perhaps £100 but i ought to get it looked at by such as yourself to get a value on it. so you really would like to know the value? well, i think it is for me something that really appeals. this reminds me of when i wake up in the morning, i have a big fig tree in my garden full of birds. but of course i don't see little things like these parakeets which are absolutely, beautifully done, with their little pink cheeks. and what's so nice about this is you've got all the shading in the leaf, which is extraordinary when you think this is actually made of bronze. it's bronze, bronze birds, bronze leaf,

- cold painted. - yeah. and there's one factory that really comes to mind when you look at something like this, which is the bergman factory. now normally things like this you'd expect it to be marked. if you turn it upside down, there is a mark. and many people fall into the trap here. and all this says is "patent applied for." - oh, right. - so that's not the mark. and bergman things are very collectible. - yes. - this is-- has got all that appeal, it's got real sex appeal in my view. well, i think there are many people who would like something like this-- the vibrancy, the sheer delight of it. and a conservative estimate for this would be somewhere in the region of £1,200 to 1,500. really? gosh. that's a bit more than £100, isn't it? yes. my husband thought it was the top of a walking stick. - what do you think it's made of? - i don't know. horn, a horn of some kind. you're right. it is a horn. that's absolutely spot-on.

it looks a bit like plastic, doesn't it? but it is horn. this is actually inlaid in ivory, those pieces and stained. and it's in the form of a cicada, i think. and it's japanese. and it dates from probably the middle of the 19th century. and those two holes are the clue as to what it is. it's actually a netsuke. it's worn at the waistband like that. i think it's a very unusual and rare object. i think you wouldn't have much trouble getting around £1,000 for it. good heavens. - bit of a shock? - good heavens. well, it is a big shock. good. - thank you. - i'll look at it with different eyes. well done.