tavis: good evening from los angeles. i am tavis smiley. as more nato and non-u.s. take the lead in libya, there is concern about the mission and its chances of success. a view from inside europe with doug saunders, european bureau chief for "the globe and mail" and a book about migration. also michael connelly is here. his book, "the fiftyou help us .

>> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in improving financial literacy. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: doug saunders is the author of the new text, "arrival city: how the largest migration

in history is reshaping our world". he is based in london. we're honored to have him in los angeles. good to meet you. >> pleasure to be here. tavis: let me start with libya. we're backing down our engagement, backing down our involvement. the u.n. has to step up and because of that, their questions about the success of this mission. your thoughts? >> unlike iraq, this was a case where most people agreed some help was needed from outside. this is a popular uprising that would happen one way or the other. it would be crushed by muammar qaddafi who does not have political support. there's not some huge bases of support but he has a large military presence. he has been able to crush and

kill people. the question is whether to go in with a full military campaign and i think the united states was fairly wise in not taking the front seat role and leaving it to nato and the un to do that. you do not want to create perceptions in the arab world that this is the american military coming in with its oil investments and that sort of thing. that is not what is going on. you do not want to create the perception. there is a strange moment of goodwill where people are willing to say this time could you help us out but that could fade quickly. >> what is the degree of success of this mission without that u.s.'s involvement. >> it is possible. this is not a huge war we're talking about. if it turns into one, something has gone wrong. there needs to be an end to the dauphin's leadership in libya. the second that is gone, there will be another set of problems

involving the transition to whatever form of government comes after. as soon as that is gone, there is not a widespread group of people who support the idea of khaddafi. without the man, there is no support. it should be relatively limited, relatively achievable operation. tavis: if i had a dime for every time i have heard relatively achievable, with all due respect, you hear these words all the time. we heard that about afghanistan and iraq. gaddafi whatever you think of him is showing no signs of going anywhere anytime soon. i had one of the released "the new york times" journalists the was captured in libya and beaten. we know that story. even he said he does not think gaddafi is going anywhere anytime soon. this notion of a quick and easy, what? >> relative to other things. we're going back to the lessons in the 1990's that caused the

accesses and mistakes which as we overcompensated the other way. we allowed things like the rwandan genocide and milosevic's campaigns of killing in the former yugoslavia to go on with out assistance when people were begging for help. western countries were too heavily interventionist often for the wrong reasons. there is a danger of tipping back the other way as well. i do not think these things will go well or easy or need or pretty -- need to or pretty. i do think this is a case where this would be a humanitarian catastrophe if people had not done something. having been on the ground and listen to libyans and knowing that, we have to be cautious and not get stuck. tavis: since your here and you're the guy that runs "the

globe and mail", what role have our neighbors' canada played in this process? >> this is a case where canada. -- canada is militarily involved. it is stuck there. stayed out of iraq and was involved in the bosnia and cause of a conflict. it is a small military but it is controversial in canada. anything that involves the military is never treated as a cause for enthusiasm. it is a debate. tavis: their justification for going into the villa when they did not go into iraq is what? what was the justification for doing it? >> the un security council asked for. that was the reason. it was an international and nearly unanimous decision based on international law and humanitarian principles. the one doctrine of

responsibility to protect which says you need to rescue citizens of a country when they are facing murder from their leader was a canadian invention. there is a bit of ownership of that sense of responsibility. tavis: thanks for taking those questions. i thought i would ask questions about the crisis. to your new text, "arrival city: how the largest migration in history is reshaping our world". it begs the obvious question. what is an arrival city? >> any city where people derive from a poor place, usually a village, and make their start in the city. i am arguing these neighborhoods are the center of either the big conflicts such as we saw in egypt or the rise to stability and and of poverty in countries. i have gone and visited 20 such places on five continents to find out what makes the bottom rung immigrant or migrant neighborhood a success and a pathway to prosperity, what

makes it a failure in a place filled with violence, gangs, poverty, misery. tavis: pick a couple cities that are a rival cities and give me a sense, walked me through -- that are arrive cities. walk me through. >> i took a look at south central los angeles. cities that were in poverty and dependence. they were african-american neighborhoods that have failed because of barriers placed in their way. after the riots, in the early 1990's, property values plummeted and people from central america moved in. i track what happens as central americans, very poor, slowly invest in their properties and by -- buy their properties, set up small businesses, some of

networks of support and some money back to the originating villages, finance their agricultural development, and try to do things to crete a better life for their children. at the same time running into traps involving gang warfare, crime, and deprivation, and so one that results from barriers placed in a way of success of these neighborhoods. bureaucratic barriers, physical barriers involving transportation and difficulties, citizenship barriers. tavis: you spent some time and they have been in the news. give me the egyptian example. >> when things exploded in cairo on july 20 -- january 25, the first neighborhood to send people who dared to go into the square in the center of cairo and faced the guns and tanks was a neighborhood which was formed by people who migrated in from northern egypt, the agricultural someges there to squawkesquat d

of their self the old neighborhood on the edge of central cairo. it has been a dense and busy and troubled neighborhood. people who made a success with the slump, who started small businesses that succeeded and wanted to get their kids into university ran against the regime controlled middle-class of aged. they had a history of confrontations in which they discovered they had no access to the good jobs and no access to the good life. people wanted to bulldoze the neighborhoods and move them out to the edge of town. all across this arab world, you get this conflict between a new middle class between people who were born on dirt floors against the old protected regime middle- class. that was the tension in tunisia and that is what is behind the changes in egypt and what caused turkey to stabilize. >> hotavis: how is this is

reshaping our world? >> this is the -- the organization of the eastern and southern borders of the world as the largest population trend driving politics. we're halfway through. the world was three-quarters peasants and rural and now it is 50-50. it will pass the point by the end of this century where asia, south america, africa are as urban as europe and north america are now. unless something cataclysmic happens, that tends to be a human movement that does not reverse itself. tavis: you wrestled with this near the end of the book and it is fascinating to me. i can see how this migration is good for them. when i see them, these groups of people. it is good for them. is it good for us? as a good for the country? this is the most multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic america. people come here to their communities and it is good for

them, but is it good for us as a nation? >> it can be if it is done right. america was built on waves of people coming through they sort of bottom wrong neighborhoods which were just a squalid and mistrusted and illegal 100 years ago as they are now. a lot of the same debates happen. somehow it worked. people started businesses and succeeded and got their kids in to politics in school. i am looking for pathways assuming the economy will keep demanding people and people wilm not. which tends to happen historically. how to make their neighborhoods work for them so they can help themselves rather than having to do with it 20 years from now as a criminal or welfare problem. tavis: i am scratching the surface on what is a provocative book that raises questions on our future, it is from doug saunders, called "arrival city: how the largest migration in history is reshaping our world".

good to have you won. next, best-selling author michael connelly. stay with us. pleased to welcome michael connelly back to this program. over 20 million copies sold in the u.s. alone. when his recent novels, "the lincoln lawyer", is open in this country. matthew mcconaughey can still deliver a good closing argument. >> he captured the character in the book. the film iand coatavis: i have e past that you are not always thrilled with what they do with your stuff. even though you optioned it. >> when it gets to the script, that usually kills the project

or not. they had a good script saar had high hopes. when matthew mcconaughey became involved, i saw him in another film where he had played a hollywood agent. some of the similarities so i was happy. right now with the film, could not be happier. tavis: the cast is amazing. marisa tomei.atthew and >> it is a great ride and very loyal to the book and have the gritty realism of l.a. that i hope was in the book. tavis: when you write these books into option the rights and someone is brought in to do the screenplay, are the things that you get a chance to say, do not touch this or that, do you have any say so in that? >> you have all the control when you are picking who you will

give it to. i did due diligence and spoke with the producers. the main producer on this movie had been a trial attorney and had lived this life so that won me over. he promised he would keep the realism that was in the book and i think he did that. he hired a screenwriter who was a friend of mine. there is a good working relationship from the beginning. tavis: you optioned 10 of these. how does that work? you never know when these things might come to life? >> the only one i knew for sure was clint eastwood optioned one of my books kocher's ago and he said, you will not hear from me but in five years i will make this and almost five years to the day, he did. tavis: since we're name dropping, clint eastwood, i hear that because of one of your books, you befriended a great artist named eric clapton. tell me how you became friends. >> it is name dropping.

tavis: that was me. >> music is very important in the book. even though you cannot hear it. if people know the music, they get something about the character. mickey haller is in this book, a few books that i mentioned eric clapton and i got an e-mail from my website claiming they were eric clapton saying thanks for mentioning him. i like your books. i pursued that saying if you are the real eric clapton, i want to tell you i listened to your music in 1969 i and a garage. that means a lot to me and that led to finally meeting him at the hollywood bowl. until a was allowed to go back into the green room and met him, i thought this could be a prank or anything. i finally met him and we met a few times since then. he has been very supportive of the book.

tavis: he shows up again in "the witness".wyerfifth tavis: do you recall what you are trying to get us to understand about the character in reference to the music? >> mickey haller was having issues with addiction and he was talking to a client and one client mentioned crossroads. that was one place that eric clapton started and there was that reference there. a shared experience. tavis: mickey haller is the fifth witness. this is the half brother. without giving away the story " is? witness i ln lawyer

>> people have -- we had an economic downturn and people are not getting a lot of work. what happens when we have a downturn is the public defender's office gets crowded because people do not have money for private attorneys. he is grambling tried to make a living and goes into the foreclosure defense which is a growth industry in the legal position. it is about starting over and trying -- going into helping people hang on to their houses or negotiate with banks. out of that a criminal case blooms. one of his clients, a woman who is having her home foreclosed on is accused of killing a banker who was behind the foreclosure. tavis: this is not the first time you have done this. what is it about what is happening in the real world that you want to grab hold to? >> i am trying to keep myself

interested as a artist. these are mysteries, these are puzzled, entertainment. that is the big party. if i can bring another thing into a mirror and look at what is going on in society, that is why want to do. this one i fell into because i used real attorneys as research on these books. one of them had to go this route. he said, i lost pretty much all my work, all my business in the criminal defense field was going away. i went into foreclosure defense. i traveled with him into this world in researching it. and found it pretty fascinating. it is one of these cases where everyone is at fault, greed is everywhere, in this kind of situation. there are people who are legitimately victimized. tavis: you started to answer but i want to go further. of all the things that are happening around us or to us, you chose the mortgage crisis.

tell me more about why that intrigues you. what is happening to people through this mortgage crisis? >> it will have a wave that will affect our country for years to come. it is somewhat of a dry subject. i was thinking in terms of, we -- if i could find a way of explaining it from all sides, i do not want to be didactic or make a judgment. this is what is happening in our world. do you know that? and from that, if i could build what i do, the a crime story, a mystery story, that is what i want to do. i do not want to make any judgments like all the bank it -- all the bankers are crooker. d. that is not my place. tavis: when the character is accused of killing the baker, are you making a statement? >> i am making a statement about where frustrations are heading towards. i have had experience in my life

where i have been in a house where they hammer the foreclosure notice on the front porch. i have had personal experience with it. it is something that i have been paying attention to as this has happened in our country. tavis: tell me more about where you get this idea, the kind of research to put into making this as religion possibly can. even though it is a fictional version. -- tell me about where you get the idea, the kind of research you put into making this as real as you can. >> i call it anecdotal research. i spent time with the attorneys that are doing this and maybe it is because i have a background as a reporter. i sit back and listen. i wait for the stories. i looked at the notary's seal and realize the date was phony. they could not have been the date was on there. the entire foreclosure was a fraud. i was able to help that person

stay in their house and i have the leverage and the bank had to renegotiate. little victories like that. i sprinkled it through the book. tavis: you have been a crime reporter. i assume it helps you in telling the kinds of stories to tell. >> we would not be sitting here. i had to do that. i was a reporter for 14 years and i look at it as 14 years of research for these books. it put me into these worlds. never mind how it taught me to write. it gave me the craft and work ethic of writing every day and it was an entry into the worlds i write about. it bring anything to my books, it is realism. i am not a lawyer or caught. i spend time with lawyers and cops. i tried to make these stories as bulletproof as possible in terms of the reality. tavis: tell me about the this

connection between having been a reporter where your job is to detail what is real and how that training aids and abets you in telling stuff that you make up. >> there is that added, if you want to know the facts, read the newspaper. if you want to read the truth, read a novel. the novel gives you freedom to go into people's minds, what they're thinking. the woman is accused of killing the banker who signed and she never even met him. he signed all the for closure papers. if that was a real story, that is when you get. those kinds of facts that he was taking away her house. in this book, we can get into how she viewed it and the frustration she had. the background of the bankers life and what he was doing. it is a bigger picture. this is fiction but it brings a strong reality, almost like a personal level story of this gigantic, big issue that is kind

of a big cloud over this country. tavis: i will close by coming back to some of your work, but not the written work or the work we see on the big screen. like the matthew mcconaughey film. what about your own cameos. you pop up every now and again on the tv show. how did that happen and are you having fun? >> definitely. this came from one of the writers who was the godfather of that show. he worked on so many shows and created so many shows. many of the younger people who worked with him are involved in the show so they brought him in and they came up with this idea of a poker game. castle is a writer and they bring in real riders. -- writers. i am on next week. you play yourself but they give

you the lines and sometimes there is stuff i do not know that i would say to somebody. it is cool when you are acting. tavis: you come from behind the pages of the screen. you can catch "the lincoln connelly just about everywhere. you can read his new tax. it is called "the fifth witness". that is our show for tonight. thanks for tuning in. until next time, keep the faith. [captioning made possible by kcet public tele

>> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment, one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. >> be more.

i took it into a shop once and they said-- they thought it was probably worth perhaps £100 but i ought to get it looked at by such as yourself to get a value on it. so you really would like to know the value? well, i think it is for me something that really appeals. this reminds me of when i wake up in the morning, i have a big fig tree in my garden full of birds. but of course i don't see little things like these parakeets which are absolutely, beautifully done, with their little pink cheeks. and what's so nice about this is you've got all the shading in the leaf, which is extraordinary when you think this is actually made of bronze.

it's bronze, bronze birds, bronze leaf, - cold painted. - yeah. and there's one factory that really comes to mind when you look at something like this, which is the bergman factory. now normally things like this you'd expect it to be marked. if you turn it upside down, there is a mark. and many people fall into the trap here. and all this says is "patent applied for." - oh, right. - so that's not the mark. and bergman things are very collectible. - yes. - this is-- has got all that appeal, it's got real sex appeal in my view. well, i think there are many people who would like something like this-- the vibrancy, the sheer delight of it. and a conservative estimate for this would be somewhere in the region of £1,200 to 1,500. really? gosh. that's a bit more than £100, isn't it? yes. my husband thought it was the top of a walking stick. - what do you think it's made of? - i don't know. horn, a horn of some kind.

you're right. it is a horn. that's absolutely spot-on. it looks a bit like plastic, doesn't it? but it is horn. this is actually inlaid in ivory, those pieces and stained. and it's in the form of a cicada, i think. and it's japanese. and it dates from probably the middle of the 19th century. and those two holes are the clue as to what it is. it's actually a netsuke. it's worn at the waistband like that. i think it's a very unusual and rare object. i think you wouldn't have much trouble getting around £1,000 for it. good heavens. - bit of a shock? - good heavens. well, it is a big shock. good. - thank you. - i'll look at it with different eyes. well done.